| Marc Jackson |
Joseph D. Absher Calvin was wrong Jesus died for ALLBut Calvin and the reformers were right on penal substitutionJesus the Eternal Son of God died as the Eternal Sacrifice for all sins – past, present and future Pelagians area dead wrong. RandalWe are not saved through our works but by the grace of God through the eternal sacrifice of Christ |
| Randal W Deese |
The Histórico church doesn’t ascribe to Pelagianism nor Calvinism… They are both erroneous Doctrine’s |
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| Marc Jackson |
Calvinism is a doctrine? |
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| Randal W Deese |
Penal substitution compromises the deity of Christ and puts a rift in the TrinityIf Christ died for, and is our solution to, our sins against god the Father, then what about our sins against Christ? He’s just as god as the Father is. or our sins against the Holy Spirit? With penal substitution, God is pitted against God, either dividing God (and thus destroying the Trinity) or saying that Christ isn’t fully god. |
| Marc Jackson |
So you dont see sin as legal problem for the Trinity? |
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| Randal W Deese |
Troy Day Penal substitution misunderstands the word “justiceâ€A quick perusal of the psalms and prophets will reveal that the word “justice†is usually coupled with “mercy.†Justice really means to show kindness and deliverance to the oppressed, and to right the wrongs done to them. True justice is destroying our oppressors—sin, death, and Satan—not punishing us for the sins to which we are in bondage. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
I guess they never met him |
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| Habakkuk Giah |
Jesus Christ came to save me while I was lost and going to hell |
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| Marc Jackson |
Randal W what you say is not exactly true. The historico church aka historical church is not concerned with many important doctrines of the Bible. One thing it is concerned with is – Sola Gratia – salvation through grace alone. Salvation is NOT possible through our works the Bible tell us. If we could have save ourselves, no need for Jesus to come, but he did – no salvation is without Jesus sacrifice and grace alone Joseph D. Absher |
| Randal W Deese |
As usual, let me exhort you to think deeper. |
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| Randal W Deese |
Orthodox Christians, affirm as clearly and unambiguously as any Lutheran, for example, that “salvation is by grace†and not by our works. Unlike medieval Catholicism, Orthodoxy does not hold that a person can build up a “treasury of merits†that will count in our favor at the Judgment Seat of Christ. What will matter then is our having surrendered our sin to God through confession, and our gestures of love (Mt. 25), together with the unshakable conviction that “Jesus Christ is Lord,†and the unique Way to eternal life.Orthodoxy does recognize, however, the importance of our “cooperation†with God, what we term “synergy.†“Salvation,†as we usually understand the word, is only the beginning of a pilgrimage that leads us through this life, through our physical death, and into life beyond. Salvation, accomplished by the death and resurrection of Christ, means freedom from the consequences of our sinfulness: separation from the holiness and love of the God who desires only that we be saved and enter into eternal and joyful communion with himself. If we were not continually tempted to fall back into sin, there would be no need for such a “synergy.†Then we could declare, with absolute confidence, “once saved, always saved!†Temptation and spiritual struggle, however, mark every day of our life. And the way we face and, by the grace of God, overcome those forces (demonic powers), is precisely through the “spiritual warfare,†the ascetic struggle that enables us to confront those forces day by day and overcome their destructive influence.This is why, in the same letter to the Colossians, the apostle can declare: “I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, the Church†(1:24). We may not suffer as Paul did, risking our very life for the gospel, enduring torture, hardship, hunger and rejection by one’s own people. Nevertheless, our small efforts, of fasting, prostrations, intense participation in long liturgical services—like almsgiving and other acts of love offered to those in need—enable us also to share in Christ’s own sufferings, which he will endure in us and for us until he comes again in glory. That participation is essential; yet it is not the means by which we are saved. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
Sometimes it takes a little dying to see the truth |
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| Marc Jackson |
No one sees the truth without dying for lying… |
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| Randal W Deese |
Penal substitution misunderstands the Old Testament sacrificesThe Old Testament sacrificial system was not a picture of penal substitution. God was not pouring out His wrath on the animals in place of the Israelites. He didn’t vent His righteous judgment on the animals, sending them to hell in place of the Israelites. On the contrary, they were killed honorably and as painlessly as possible. Their life (i.e. their blood) was offered to God as a sweet smelling aroma. The resulting meat was good and holy—not just worthless carrion fit for dogs and vultures. Such is also the case with Christ’s sacrifice: it is a holy offering of blood to the Father, not a means whereby God can vent His wrath. |
| Randal W Deese |
Penal substitution misunderstands the word “propitiationâ€Propitiation should not be thought of in the classical pagan sense, as if our god were some angry deity who needed appeasing and could only be satisfied through a penal sacrifice. It’s really quite different. Propitiation (Greek hilasterion) is also translated “mercy seat.†The mercy seat covered the ark of the covenant, which contained a copy of the ten commandments—the law. While the law cried out against us and demanded perfection and showed us our shortcomings, the mercy seat covered those demands and our failure to live up to them. Was the mercy seat punished for our sins? of course not. Likewise, Christ’s blood was not the punishment demanded by justice, but rather the ultimate mercy seat, covering and forgiving our sins. This is why “propitiation†is sometimes more accurately translated as “expiation†in some versions of the Bible. (“expiation†implies the removal of our sins, while “propitiation†implies appeasing an angry deity.) |
| Marc Jackson |
Randal W Deese Does your last long comment consider purgatory or it just sounds like that to me at a first read? |
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| Randal W Deese |
Orthodox don’t believe in the Doctrine of Purgatory |
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| Marc Jackson |
What exactly are you saying then? Universalism ? |
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| Randal W Deese |
You seem to be very uninformed about orthodoxy… Then, on top of that, you don’t read from Orthodox people what they teach or believe, so you’re very biased |
| Marc Jackson |
No need to attack my knowledge or person. Just answer the question and stick to the topic. What do you gain from ad hominem? |
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| Randal W Deese |
Troy Day You need to practice what you preach… You do it quite often yourself |
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| Marc Jackson |
Authentic salvation can come when a person doesn’t just realize what He did FOR them, but what He did BECAUSE of them. ~ Ed Brewer |
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Varnel Watson
ONE for ALL
saved
ONE and ALL
Varnel Watson
Walter Wallace Isaac Coverstone I foresee you two being quite the Calvinists
Isaac Coverstone
Why would I be a calvinist?
Varnel Watson
Did God know you would ask that?
Varnel Watson
EVERYONE?
David Grooms
The lost only
Larry Dale Steele
Whosoever will
Varnel Watson
we were ALL lost – so does this mean ALL?
Jeanette Elizondo
Who so ever will come !!!
Donna Dixon Dubois
Amen and Amen
Adon Kabasala
Automatically me!!!!!
Jared Cheshire
He came to seek and to save “those who were lost”, or “that which was lost”? If it is a “that” and not a “who”, what was “that”, who lost it, how did they lose it, and how did He get it back?
Varnel Watson
Jared Cheshire would that include ALL lost or just the pre elect?
Jared Cheshire
Troy Day I don’t see anything about pre elect in the Bible. My point here is the scripture says “that which was lost” not who. The who becomes whosoever will.
Varnel Watson
Some claim Rom 1, Eph 1 and so on where the word pre-elect is actually used. What about post-elect? like already saved but still needs to be water baptized?
Isara Mo
He came to save ” whoever believes in Him” not ALL PEOPLE OR EVERYONE OR A CERTAIN TRIBE OR NATION…
ONLY those who believe in Him.
Isara Mo
John 3:16 says God so loved the world(I believe it is the whole world) and gave His only begotten Son so that WHOEVER BELIEVES shall not perish…
The word “whoever believes” is selective not all inclusive..
Isara Mo
Troy Day pre elect?
Varnel Watson
what not clear @isara mo?
Jared Cheshire
I see predestination not pre elect. Predestination is a forethought plan, it does not mean you have no choice but to follow the plan. There are so very many that choose to ignore that plan. Pre elect would be pre chosen. I don’t see that in that context.
Varnel Watson
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. The greek word for chose-before is namely fore-chosen or pre-elect
Jared Cheshire
What context are you using that “choose”? I have heard it explained different ways.
Varnel Watson
I am not using it Actually the ap Paul is 🙂
Isara Mo
Troy Day Pre elect(pre chosen) notion justifies the doctrine of foreknowledge of Adams sin and Lucifers fall: ALL WAS PROGRAMMED PRIOR to creation so that God could get his PRE CHOSEN ONES…for how else could He get them from the flock except by having Satan fall….and then Adam fall so that the WHOLE HUMANITY fall so that there was a REASON to get the few among the many…..no wonder we call it grace…for.it is not by self effort but by Gods pre determined plan …
And if that is the truth(the pre chosen) theory, then God has no business to get angry, to be WRATHFUL…to demand a His sons blood to be appeased…(????)for He knew before the creation of the world that He has purposely planned it all…
Varnel Watson
not what Ephesians 1:4 says now is it?
Jared Cheshire
Troy Day Ok a rephrase, what context do believe the apostle Paul was using it?
Varnel Watson
Calvin was wrong Jesus died for ALLBut Calvin and the reformers were right on penal substitutionJesus the Eternal Son of God died as the Eternal Sacrifice for all sins – past, present and future Pelagians area dead wrong. RandalWe are not saved through our works but by the grace of God through the eternal sacrifice of Christ
Isara Mo
Troy Day I agree
Isara Mo
Troy Day Nevertheless, if they were wrong on one doctrine don’t you think they were also wrong on penal substitution..
I read somewhere that the penal substitution theory is also a heresy…
Joe Absher
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
– John 1:12
Varnel Watson
@isara mo can you define penal substitution? I’ve heard WAY too many definitions I believe one from Link too
Link Hudson
I do not recall that conversation.
Varnel Watson
I wouldnt have expected anything else
Link Hudson
Troy Day you may also be confusing posters. I have been on here for years.
Varnel Watson
Naah When was the last time I was wrong on posters?
Link Hudson
Troy Day Probably yesterday. I might have commented on a penal substitution thread, but it is highly unlike that I wrote something along the lines of ‘this is the definition of penal substitution.’ I’m pretty sure you have the wrong poster in mind or the details confused.
Louise Cummings
He came to seek that which was lost. ?
(Matthew 28:11.
Jeffry Woolston
Jews and Gentiles… everyone.
Varnel Watson
ALL Israel or simply ALL mankind? Philip Williams
Philip Williams
Troy Day salvation requires either being part of God’s Israel or recognizing and supporting the same.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams hope you are not going 2 covenant with that statement Salvation required one thing only – a REDEEMER
Philip Williams
Troy Day of course not. There has never been but one Israel of God from the time of Abraham until now, those who trust in Jesus. The Israel of this world is the Israel of Satan.
Gary Micheal Epping
The first group of 12 that Jesus chose were all jews except for Luke. Early followers in his ministry were predominantly jews. On the day of pentecost the church grew from 3000 to 5000 in a day, which were mostly Jews. So , there was an early first group of jews that stayed in the vine. However, the remaining unbelieving jews were cut off, and Jesus turned to the gentiles. The only way unbelieving jews today or in the future can get grafted back in is to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
Eugene Stiger
Troy Day All mankind… He came to save that which was lost.
David Willier
Revelation 7:9
“After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,”
From ALL nations, ALL tribes, ALL tongues… ALL these will be represented and included in God’s kingdom. Obviously not every single person will go to Heaven, that’s not what “all” means there. It’s all types of people (Jews, Gentiles, Greeks Scythian, Armenians. Americans, Russians, Chineses, etc. etc.)
Who did Christ come to save? Every single person He did save is who He came to save. You or I might not know exactly who is going to Heaven, so we must preach the gospel to every living soul, even if they end up in Hell someday.
Billy Monroe Poff
Whosoever will….
Isara Mo
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16 NIV//
Not ALL peoples but WHOSOEVER
BELIEVES IN HIM…
No mention of tribe, race or language..
Frances Strickland
The article isn’t accessible. Nevertheless, Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, as God promised. It is professied that His own would reject Him and He would be a blessing to the Gentiles. Now, it’s the ‘whosoever will’ group.
Varnel Watson
The article is very much accessible otherwise FB would have not showed it In the discussion Marc Jackson Joe Absher and Randal W Deese pick their barains on Calvin being wrong Jesus died for ALL But Calvin and the reformers were right on penal substitutionJesus the Eternal Son of God died as the Eternal Sacrifice for all sins – past, present and future Pelagians area dead wrong. RandalWe are not saved through our works but by the grace of God through the eternal sacrifice of Christ
Joe Absher
I never picked my brain for a Calvinist. The bible is plain enough.
Frances Strickland
Isaiah 28:11-16 King James Version (KJV)
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Rejection
David Willier
“All the Believing”
🙂
Louise Cummings
The Lost.
Louise Cummings
All mankind. Everyone who would trust in Him. And call upon His Name. Believing that He was The Son Of God. And they that believed. I believe and the Bible says. They came confessing their sins.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams woulnt that be dual covenant?
part of God’s Israel or recognizing and supporting the same.
Philip Williams
“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy 2:3-4
Philip Williams
Calvinists will not submit to God while blaming God for their wicked and evil hearts. God will surely cast their rebellious souls into the hottest Hell.