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Nelson Banuchi | PentecostalTheology.com
Here’s something IO noticed in reading Revelation 11:6 in the RSV re; the two witnesses:
“They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, *as often as they desire*.”
Note: “as often as they desire.”
It doesn’t read that they are granted power to do as God desires, or they are given power to do as God wills or permits, or they have been given power on the condition that they use it according to God’s command; no, it reads that they are given power to perform wonders at their own discretion.
That is, it seems to me, whatever they desire to do, God desires to do; or, I think it can be said that, once given the power to perform wonders, and let them have at it.
This is granting not only authority to power but authority to use that power freely according to their own wishes; they are given freedom to exercise their powers however and as often as they choose. It seems they don’t even need to necessarily pray if they should cause it to rain or cause drought, but only say the word and it is done. At the risk of sounding heretical or (blasphemous to those who may take the extreme), it’s as if God has made himself at the disposal of the two witnesses to do according to their word.
I find this intriguing. I have not found anything on this particular phrase, “as preteen as they wish,” in any of the commentaries I have (which is not many and none of Revelation that Pentecostal/Charismatic.
Any thoughts on this? Is anyone aware of any commentary that engages on this?
Thanks!
Marc Alfano [08/22/2015 10:53 PM]
If you are open to some creative hermeneutics, without sounding heretical or blasphemous, it says witnesses, not actual people, which could be Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty.
There is reference to them as two olive trees and two lamp stands (old and new testaments) notice vs. 5 about fire proceeding out of their mouth and consuming their enemies, much like a two edge sword (the Word of God).
Check out 1Kings 18:24, Luke 10:17-20, 2 Kings 1:7-16, Luke 9:51-56, Acts 2:2-4
Nelson Banuchi [08/22/2015 11:02 PM]
Marc Alfano, not intending to argue but, as I read the text, it does say they are witnesses but described these witnesses as persons.
But, to me, the point is not necessarily who are the witnesses, but their two-fold authority to power, that is, authority to perform wonders and their authority to freely perform wonders.
If you believe the witnesses are Jesus and the Holy Spirit, I’ve no problem with that and I can appreciate how you seem to have resolved the issue I presented in the OP.
However, I’m not certain your interpretation that the witnesses are Jesus and the Holy Spirir is correct.
John Kissinger [08/22/2015 11:04 PM]
So WHO ARE the two witnesses?
Nelson Banuchi [08/22/2015 11:04 PM]
John Kissinger: To answer your question, I believe the two witnesses are actual persons. As such, what are your thoughts re: the OP?
Marc Alfano [08/22/2015 11:07 PM]
Jesus and the Spirit ARE persons!! (2nd and 3rd persons of the Trinity!!)
Marc Alfano [08/22/2015 11:10 PM]
Matt. 17:1-8
Nelson Banuchi [08/22/2015 11:14 PM]
Marc Alfano: I think you know what I mean. I don’t deny the personhood of the triune God. I’m talking about the witnesses actually being two people whom God has chosen to use for that time and circumstance.
Like I said, I appreciate how you resolved the issue; my point of argument is not with identifying who are the two witnesses.
Marc Alfano [08/22/2015 11:26 PM]
All I am saying is the disciples thought Elijah had to preceded the Messiah, but Jesus said he came in the spirit of John the Baptist. Things can be literal and actual but in the Spirit, not in a physical form. (Eat my flesh and drink my blood) (born again, not entering your mother’s womb a second time) Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Brenda Smith [08/22/2015 11:31 PM]
Some Bible teachers say Moses and Elijah since these were the two also with Jesus on the Mt of Transfiguration and represent the law – Moses and the prophets – Elijah. Others teach it will be Enoch and Elijah since these two have never died and since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God 1 Cor 15:50..they will have their glorified bodies upon death when the witnesses ascend 31/2 days after the beast of Rev 11:7-12 kills them.
John Kissinger [08/22/2015 11:46 PM]
we can only say will be two Jews – that’s all from the Bible
Marc Alfano [08/22/2015 11:47 PM]
Right, that is what I always assumed too. But even that is speculation.
A lot of end time doctrine (eschatology) is cherry picked scripture weaved together into a tapestry of systematic theology that seems to make logical sense, but much of what goes on in the Bible is not based on linear time but the eternal realm of God’s presence- the Alpha and Omega!
Marc Alfano [08/22/2015 11:49 PM]
Where does it say Jews? Are Christians true Jews?
Marc Alfano [08/22/2015 11:51 PM]
Isaiah 19:23-25
John Kissinger [08/22/2015 11:52 PM]
They are “the two olive trees” always a representation of Israel in the Bible and “clothed in sackcloth” – not a ritual of too many Gentiles
Marc Alfano [08/22/2015 11:57 PM]
In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave or free, male or female. You are being literal again- will make you stumble over understanding the spirit of the word not the letter of the word.
John Kissinger [08/23/2015 12:39 AM]
Show us in the BIBLE where the two witnesses are “in Christ”
Nelson Banuchi [08/23/2015 12:55 AM]
Marc Alfano, John Kissinger, you guys are getting side-tracked.
The issue is that whoever these witnesses are, it seems clear that they are exerting the divine authority given to them at their discretion; that is, God is not necessarily directing when and what acts of wonder they are to perform but is granting them not only the power to perform but the authority to perform is as they wish.
It seems Marc answers that the two witnesses perform at their discretion simply because, as he interprets the text, the two witnesses are the Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Okay, we’ll allow that as a possibility.
My question is, what other interpretations of the text are there and how do they comment on the main issue that these “witnesses” were able to not only perform wonders but to do so at heir discretion?
Primarily, I’m seeking to know if there is any scholarly opinion or commentary that deals with the text regarding the witnesses seeming freedom to perform acts of wonder at their discretion.
As a footnote, it seems to be how Jesus performed his wonders, that is, at his discretion. Can the same be said for the apostles (e.g. Acts 3:1-7; 5:12; 13:9-11; 16:16-18?
Let’s stay focused, please.
John Kissinger [08/23/2015 4:09 PM]
if you are saying we have free will to exercise God’s power, what new thing are you saying?
Marc Alfano [08/23/2015 5:11 PM]
I answered your question earlier- Luke 10.
Nelson Banuchi [08/23/2015 5:40 PM]
John Kissinger, my point is that the verse seems to suggest that the witnesses are exercising the use of God’s power at their discretion, as they wish, when they want, not necessarily making any suggestion that it is under God’s direction or will.
Am I making myself clear?
Marc Alfano [08/23/2015 6:06 PM]
What you are describing is witchcraft! Using power for your own purpose apart from God’s will.
Not even Jesus used his power on his own-
i.e. the temptations by the Devil to act unilaterally with his power, even to meet legitimate needs or desires.
John 5:17-30 Jesus only does what he sees the Father doing and does nothing on his own initiative. God, in turn, gives all power and authority to the Son.
Brenda Smith [08/23/2015 9:18 PM]
There were times that the prophets Elijah and Elisha seem to have acted at their own discretion Elijah 1 Ki 17:1 told King Ahab that there would be no rain, but according to his word. Elijah also called fire down from heaven in 2 Ki 1:10…..Elisha 2 Ki 5:27 spoke leprosy upon his disobedient servant. And of course, both prophets parted the waters of the Jordan and passed over on dry ground. The words of Rev 11:6….have power….and….. as often as they will…..appear to give the two witnesses the latitude to act as they deem appropriate.
Nelson Banuchi [08/23/2015 9:51 PM]
Marc Alfano, I think you need to calm down a bit.
First, where have I stated exercising the divine power at one’s own discretion necessarily involves doing so for one’s own purpose or against God’s will?
One does not necessarily follow the other.
Your citing Jn 5:17-30 is instructive. But note:
– “the Son gives life *to whom He wishes*.” (v.21).
– “He has given all judgment to the Son”
– “He gave Him authority to execute judgment” – why? because he is the Son of God? No, but – “because He is the *Son of Man*.”
I’m not denying Jesus did the Father’s will, but as Brenda Smith said re: the 2 witnesses, Jesus, at the same time doing the Father’s will, seems to have been given some “latitude to act as they deem appropriate.”
Regarding his own life, Jesus said, ” “No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on *My own initiative*. *I have authority* to lay it down, and *I have authority* to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
I’m not suggesting anything definitive one way or the other; I’m just putting out things to consider.
John Kissinger [08/23/2015 11:28 PM]
It is not at their own discretion if the text says “I will appoint my two witnesses” Are you arguing they have free will independent from the mission of God they were sent for? Please explain your point if you can
Marc Alfano [08/24/2015 12:19 AM]
Nelson Banuchi, I don’t know what your confusion is but this discussion is a waste of time. Good luck, I’m done. You don’t seem to want to get it. Jesus said “I and the Father are one”
Philip said to Jesus show us the Father- Jesus said “how long have I been with you Philip” don’t you know me? Jesus can’t act independent of God because he is God but also the son of man. Satan is the one who uses his power contrary to God’s will because he is a liar and the father of lies and there is no truth in him. What you are describing is voodoo and witchcraft, using supernatural powers for your own purposes, even for good, without the presence and will of the Holy Spirit. If you are not under the anointing of the Holy Spirit you are operating on your own. Like Cain and Able, God has no regard for Cain’s efforts no matter how sincere because he is doing it on his own apart from God! They are “filthy rags” in God’s sight.
Ricky Grimsley [08/24/2015 12:11 PM]
Enoch and elijah for they have never died and its appointed for every man to die.
James Price [08/24/2015 2:33 PM]
Two Witnesses: We should remember that several of those who were on the committee to assemble and include the letters in the N T, voted to keep Revelation out because it was too confusing and subject to many diverse interpretations. No one was for sure who the actual writer was and even if was John one of the apostles he would have been in his nineties by then and very well may have been hallucinating. To draw the conclusion that men would be given the power that you mention takes us beyond anything we have seen elsewhere and therefore ought to be dismissed as purely a dream or a vision, nothing more.
Ricky Grimsley
Enoch and elijah
Robert Borders
Probably not Jay and Silent Bob?
Louise Cummings
One place in the Bible it mentions Elijah. The other some thinks it will be Moses because of turning water to blood and other things Moses did when leading the Children of Egypt out of bandage.i think it will be Enoch. Because Enoch and Elijah never died. The Bible says it is appointed into man once to die. And after the Judgment. I think it will be those two. I can give Scripture. But don’t have time tight now to get it together.
Louise Cummings
I know this part of Revelations hasn’t. Happened yet. But it will I about mid part of the Great Tribulations.
Louise Cummings
I meant Children of Israel out of Egypt bondage.
Jon Ray
Why not #MOSES ? Ricky Grimsley
Ricky Grimsley
Because moses already died and elijah didnt.
Jon Ray
Enoch did not die either. And then it was Moses seen on the Mt. of Transfiguration right?
Louise Cummings
That’s true reason believe it will be Enoch and Elijah. They never die. The Bible said it is appointed unto every man to die. These two wittiness will die in the Tribulations. Then come back alive and be caught up to Heaven again.
Charles Page
They were in Jerusalem during the tribulation
Ricky Grimsley
Sorry charlie the book of revelation hasnt happened yet.
Charles Page
only if you are a dispensationalist! 😉
James L Alldredge
Elijah and Enoch were translated and are now in a glorified state, therefore they cannot die. The 2 witnesses if taken literally are 2 as yet unidentified Jewish leaders who will be patterned after Zerubbabel and Joshua from Zech. 3 and 4. Most likely a political leader and a spiritual leader, (High Priest?) who will oppose the Anitchrist and be killed midway through the Tribulation period.
Ricky Grimsley
So all the prophecies about elijah in the endtimes……?
Charles Page
end times were 63 -70 AD
Ricky Grimsley
I cant even believe it.
Charles Page
Unbelief
Ricky Grimsley
Believing the devil is chained up and all that stuff…….just sounds impossible to me.
Charles Page
Argue with the Bible over that
Ricky Grimsley
I have studied bible prophecy my whole life. To believe revelation was about 70 ad…..i mean really have you read it. Bottomless pits and scorpion-horse things, the mark of the beast……open your eyes. The real mark of the beast stuff is right about the corner. Dont be deceived.
Louise Cummings
Amen.
Louise Cummings
The devil will be bound in the thousand year reign.
James L Alldredge
Jesus said John the Baptist was “Elijah” (Matt.11), Clearly the prophecy was about the prophetic office and the “spirit of Elijah” that would signal the kingdom was coming to fulfillment. The problem with a literal return of Elijah is that having been translated, (raptured) he and Enoch are both now immortal, “like the angels” and could not be killed as the witnesses are prophesied to be…
Charles Page
what about all the dead that rose up at the crucifixion? were they resurrected and glorified?
James L Alldredge
No mention is made of whether their resurrection was after the manner of Jesus or Lazarus, if Jesus then yes, they are glorified and now immortal, if Lazarus, (a return to physical life), then obviously they died again and are awaiting the final resurrection as Lazarus is…
James L Alldredge
Moses, also having died, Josh 1:1 / Jude 9, is also unable to die again, the best interpretation is that as John fulfilled the prophecy of Elijah in Jesus first appearing, another “John” will be chosen to fulfill it in the second
Blain Thrift
OK y’all, if you will study the marriage ceremony of the Jewish people you will know. The father had to be present ,the groom,the bride and two witnesses.
On the Mt of transfiguration you had the groom which was Jesus, you had the bride which was represented by Peter, James and John. You had the Father which was God and you had your two witnesses. Jesus also discussed the purchase price of the Church aka the bride with the two witnesses.
Blain Thrift
You may not see it because I had studied and read it for years and one night in the hall way of a little rinky dink mobile home God revealed it to me as plain as day.
Varnel Watson
TWO Jewish people is the only certain thing about them
Ricky Grimsley
It cant be moses. He is dead and buried.
Jon Ray
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRu5kUmXkvM
Cor Leonis Johnson
I have heard some teach that the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah but I think that is pure conjecture. I do not think anyone knows.
Jon Ray
Anyone but Jesus. Jesus knew it was going to be Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. Peter, James, and John saw them and wanted to build 3 tents for them
Charles Page
No one knows because it took place 70 AD
Cor Leonis Johnson
I do not agree, Charles because the book of Revelation was not even written before 70 AD. It would not make any sense to speak of something as future when it had already taken place.
Charles Page
Rev 17:10 establishes the time of the writing of Rev
Cor Leonis Johnson
I guess I am not learned enough to establish a date from that passage. Can you help me?
Charles Page
Five Caesars are dead one is alive and the one during tribulation is to come.
five: Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius, Claudius, and Nero. Revelation was written after Nero during reign of intermediate kings and
Vespasian is the sixth King
Charles Page
Cor Leonis Johnson You seem to be teachable!
Cor Leonis Johnson
If John wrote early (a.d. 64- 66) then it is likely that Paul’ s two letters to Timothy, who was in Ephesus at the time, would overlap with John’ s writing of Revelation and his letter to the church at Ephesus (Rev. 2:1-7). It would also mean that, Paul likely wrote 2 Timothy after John wrote to the church. The problem is that the error that Christ points out to the Ephesians in Revelation should have surfaced in Paul’ s epistles if they were written around the same time. However, these problems are not evident in Paul’ s writings. Further, it is unlikely that John had moved to Ephesus until after Peter and Paul had passed from the scene. Philip Schaff tells us: ” It was probably the martyrdom of Peter and Paul that induced John to take charge of the orphan churches, exposed to serious danger and trials.
Charles Page
The earlier date cause a reshuffling of the views of liberal scholarship.
Cor Leonis Johnson
I am not a liberal.
Charles Page
Cor Leonis Johnson I went to a Pentecostal school and we got the liberal view of the historical NT dates of authorship. I was taught the liberal views and have had to relearn the history.
Cor Leonis Johnson
ok
Cor Leonis Johnson
I only went to Baylor and studied computer technology.
Charles Page
Cor Leonis Johnson that explains a lot!!! 😉
Jon Ray
Charles Page Nero reigned only 13 years 54-68 AD There’s absolutely no proof for such early date of writing Revelation. Some even doubt there was barely time to write the Gospels as the destruction of Jerusalem is not mentioned as a passed event in neither of them. Acts is barely written in the 60s and Paul is still doing his missionary journeys until his death in 66 AD. Jude is not written until after 70 AD and some date the Gospel of John in 80-85AD. Surely, you are not proposing that John wrote the Revelation before the 4th Gospel? There is absolutely no evidence for Neronic Date of Revelation until the 7th century AD. See Comparison of the External Evidence Domitianic Date vs Neronic Date http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/nt-difficulties/jude/date-of-revelation/
Charles Page
fell does not mean his death but his downfall as Emperor which was 63 or earlier. The sixth did not come till 68 there were intermediate rulers between Nero and Vespasian.
Jon Ray
You are talking about the first crisis of the Empire with Four Emperors Galba, Otho, Vitallius, Vespasian. On July 1, AD 69, Vespasian is proclaimed emperor but almost six months pass before he can eliminate rivals and enter Rome. There goes the preterits count of 7 kings :
Jon Ray
Charles Page Too much Chilton and Gentry perhaps? From the table Irenaeus, Tertullian, Dio Cassius and Victorinus all disagree with the early dating. The Temple is not mentioned in Revelation except coming from Heaven. Nero is not one to whome Revelation 17:10 refers for surely his contemporary John would have called him by name. One of the key internal evidences, which does not require positing a particular interpretative approach, is the condition of the seven church in Revelation. Do these churches look more like first-generation churches, which would appear to support an early date, or do they favor a second-generation church, which would support the late date? There are some key evidences that strongly favor a second-generation depiction of the churches. Since a preterist interpretation of Revelation requires an early date of the final book in the Bible, preterists go to great lengths in their attempts to make their view appear viable. The Domitianic date is the overwhelmingly accepted view of scholarship in our day and throughout most of church history. Nothing in Revelation itself contradicts such a conclusion. It appears the major reason that preterists believe in an early date for Revelation is that their system requires it. In this instance the saying is true that necessity is the mother of invention.
Charles Page
same true for premillennial views – there has to be a futurist view and thus the interpretation.
Charles Page
John did not name Nero because it was not politically expedient to do. Nero was fallen but not yet dead.
Jon Ray
Didnt happen Charles Page If Jesus really returned 70AD as you believe, He’s doing one poor job restoring this world David Lewayne Porter No luck with John either – St. Eusebius of the 3rd century, copied Iranaeus’s story of John’s banishment by Domitian. Tertullian, on the other hand, claimed John was banished by Nero Caesar. The problem is Tertullian, in another portion of his writing, claimed that Domitian reigned 15 total years, and was also the one who set St. John free from the island.
Charles Page
OR the church has been doing a poor job of occupy the kingdom
Ricky Grimsley
Insanity
Charles Page
Least not skewed
Dan Irving
Easy. Who does Isaiah say are the two witnesses? (Is. 8) Who did Jesus say were the two witnesses of His day? Who did the apostles say were the two witnesses in the book of Acts?
Anonymous
The kings and priest of the new covenant
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs there are MORE than 2 – who do you exactly propose?
Anonymous
Troy Day the candle stick isn’t one person but many peoples make up the candle stick.
Anonymous
truth and power
Anonymous
I hope that Elias & John the Baptist (Prophets) of the Old and New Testaments. Amen!
Anonymous
Rasiah Thomas why would OT people come back to a NT situation?
Anonymous
john the baptist ended under the law… whats he gonna add? His ministry is done.
Anonymous
John Digsby who do you propose? Rasiah Thomas Isara Mo
Anonymous
Troy Day i dont think the two witnesses can be literally interpreted.
the two witnesses at jesus time were john the baptist and jesus or jesus and the holy ghost.
Anonymous
John Digsby WHO would you say they are Michael Chauncey ?
Anonymous
John Digsby John the Baptist obtained the powered Spirit of Elisa.
Anonymous
Rasiah Thomas
so? the disciples were filled with the holy ghost…. why not choose one of them at least they met jesus?
Or how about david?
the list can grow really long.
Anonymous
John Digsby During the time of transformation on the mountain, our Lord Jesus Christ met Moses and Elias only. Out of them, Elias is a brave full prophet and unmarried.
Anonymous
Rasiah Thomas what makes ya think it was moses and elijah? because peter said so?
Theres nobody else to say is there? IF a guess is gonna be made moses and elijah are top of the list, but neither of them represent the New covenant and they are sleeping until resurrection.
so no.
There isnt much that peter gets right and eventually he goes back to eating with the jews.
Anonymous
John Digsby At that time, Jesus & Peter were alive in the body, and the others were in spirit only.
Anonymous
Rasiah Thomas not really. i said peter went back to eating with the jews, why did you ignore that?
Anonymous
if you’ll notice the other disciples were speaking in tongues…. peter spoke to the crowd in an earthly language.
Anonymous
the keys that peter has, everybody has. The keys to the kingdom are the way into the kingdom. Prayer, devotion, jesus name, etc….
jesus isnt saying anything special to peter, it just sounds that way.
Anonymous
food for thought, eh.
Anonymous
this is NOT a bad study Duane L Burgess Michael Chauncey how true is it?
Anonymous
Troy Day
1. Enoch & Elijah
2. Moses & Elijah
3. Eldad & Medad
4. Someone & Someone else
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey WELL then John Digsby AND John Mushenhouse – I THINK NOT Link Hudson Brett Dobbs Neil Steven Lawrence
Anonymous
If the people I have corresponded with on the Internet over the years are correct, I have interacted with three of the two witnesses. Maybe four. I can’t remember.
Anonymous
The two witnesses?
Without a doubt, it will be  Enoch and Elijah.
They are the only two in scripture that are specifically said to have not died.
They have been in heaven for 6000 and 4000 years respectively in their unredeemed bodily form.
When they return they will minister for a time and then be murdered by the antichrist and be resurrected bodily with their glorified bodies just like those who went in the Rapture 3 1/2 years before.
Enoch and Elijah must come and die so their bodies can be resurrected and glorified. 
Scripture specifically said Moses died. 
John the Baptist already fulfilled his “Elijah“ coming and scripture specifically says he died.
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence actually….. give this a read and then get back with me.
https://70thweektimeline.wordpress.com/home/the-two-witnesses/
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence
https://www.google.ca/search?q=elijah+sends+a+letter&source=hp&ei=HZJPZO_eH4KA0PEPste-6Ao&iflsig=AOEireoAAAAAZE-gLcKB1TUBVpf1L4bDcQ0HgjjSTEtf&ved=0ahUKEwiv4au68tP-AhUCADQIHbKrD60Q4dUDCAo&uact=5&oq=elijah+sends+a+letter&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBggAEBYQHjIICAAQigUQhgMyCAgAEIoFEIYDMggIABCKBRCGAzIICAAQigUQhgM6DggAEI8BEOoCEIwDEOUCOg4ILhCPARDqAhCMAxDlAjoOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQ0QM6CAgAEIAEELEDOgUIABCABDoLCC4QgAQQsQMQgwE6BQguEIAEOgsIABCKBRCxAxCDAToICC4QsQMQgAQ6CAguEIAEELEDOggILhDUAhCABDoLCC4QigUQsQMQgwE6DgguEK8BEMcBELEDEIAEOgsILhCABBDHARCvAToHCAAQgAQQCjoICAAQFhAeEApQqgdYqTVgjDhoAnAAeACAAWyIAYALkgEEMjAuMpgBAKABAbABCg&sclient=gws-wiz
elijah sent a letter after his supposed ascension. Letters from heaven are unprecedented.
the chariots were going to heaven, elijah took an earthbound whirlwind.
enoch was moved so he wouldnt see death, not his own death, but the flood and here we have another puzzle piece fitting in when jesus said, nobody has gone to heaven and more support for a localized flood.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs fake news?
Anonymous
John Digsby google search? REALLY?
your theology refers to even MORE fake news?
Anonymous
Troy Day more like a very probable answer
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs the two witnesses could never be Jesus and the Holy Spirit, because later on the antichrist  murders them! 
The fact that they have autonomy is not surprising, since they are very close to the heart of God, and have learned his ways enough forgot to take them up without dying:  Enoch & Elijah .
Furthermore, they’ve been in heaven for 6000 & 4000 years respectively and have come to an even deeper understanding of the doings of God and the will of God.
Just because someone can do what they want to enact God‘s judgment or word does not mean , they cannot be human. Jesus left it up to the disciples (which includes you and me)  to give or withhold forgiveness… that’s a pretty big deal! 
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence I’m not real sure what your talking about. Did you ready article? The two witnesses isn’t Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
The two witnesses is the candle stick and the olive tree.
Revelation 1:20 (KJV) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Candle stick = church. Olive tree =church.
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence chapter 11, there is the measuring of the temple. We need to ask ourselves And what does it mean to measure the temple? Why is the temple being measured?
In Zechariah 2:1-5 Zechariah sees a man with a measuring line to go out and measure the city of Jerusalem. For it will inhabited and Jerusalem will have no walls. And then the Lord says; Zechariah 2:5-5 (KJV) For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
Here the city was being measured as symbol of being protected. In a similar fashion the temple in Revelation 11:1 is being measured for protection as well. And he’s told to not measure the court because it’s being trodden down by the gentiles or nations. Meaning those outside of the church will not be protected. And then let’s take a look at Zechariah 4 again. We see here the two olive trees and 2 lampstands are mentioned which directly connects chapter 4 to Revelation 11. Zech 4:14 these are the two anointed ones.
Zechariah 4:7-7 (KJV) Who [art] thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel [thou shalt become] a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone [thereof with] shoutings, [crying], Grace, grace unto it.
Who is Zerubbabel? He was the governor (king like figure) of Judah during the restoration of Jerusalem after their Babylonian captivity. In Haggai 2:23 The Lord says that he will make Zerubbabel as a signet, for the Lord has chosen him. The signet ring is a ring worn by the king to put his mark or signature upon any decree or letter that is written by the king. In many ways Zerubbabel is a type of Christ who sends the Holy Ghost to seal us until the day of redemption. Zerubbabel is one of the anointed ones. The other leader of their restoration was the high priest Joshua. In Zechariah 3:1-4 Zechariah sees a vision of Satan opposing Joshua. This vision has a direct connection to Jesus being tempted by Satan in the wilderness. Not only is this vision connected directly to Jesus. But there is also a direct connection to the church and the two witnesses as well.
Zechariah 3:4-10 (NKJV)
4 Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, “Take away the filthy garments from him.” And to him He said, “See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.”
Much in the same way that Jesus has removed our iniquities and will clothe us in fine linen.
7 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘If you will walk in My ways, And if you will keep My command, Then you shall also judge My house, And likewise have charge of My courts; I will give you places to walk Among these who stand here.
We are to keep the law of Christ. We are to abide in him. To Love God, and to love our neighbor.
8 ‘Hear, O Joshua, the high priest, You and your companions who sit before you, For they are a wondrous sign; For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.
In the final days the church will be preaching the return of the BRANCH, the Root of David, whom is called the Nazarene. Jesus Christ.
9 For behold, the stone That I have laid before Joshua: Upon the stone [are] seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave its inscription,’ Says the LORD of hosts, ‘And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10 In that day,’ says the LORD of hosts, ‘Everyone will invite his neighbor Under his vine and under his fig tree.’ ”
Zechariah 6:12 (KJV) And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Matt:16:18 upon this rock I will build my church. Jesus is the cornerstone. The apostles and prophets are the foundation.
Zechariah 4:10-10 (KJV) For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the stone in the hand of Zerubbabel [with] those seven; they [are] the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
Revelation 5:6-6 (KJV) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Who holds the stone holds the testimony of Jesus Christ which is the spirit of prophecy. How shall the two witnesses operate in their time?
Zechariah 4:6-6 (KJV) Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
Zechariah 4:9-9 (KJV) The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
The church will be in full power making the last call of the gospel. This is their mission.
To finish the great commission. Joshua as the priest and Zerubbabel as the king.
Revelation 1:5-6 (KJV) 5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
So how does this work on a global scale of witnesses? I do not expect all of the Christians in the world to travel and live in Israel during the tribulation. I do believe that two prominent churches will take a stand in Jerusalem during this time period, as in the two remaining churches who’s lamp stands will not be removed because they we’re faithful where the other 5 were not. Rev. 1:20 the 7 lampstands are the 7 churches. But now only 2 remain. Romans 11, the natural branch are the Jews and the wild branch are the gentiles. And Jesus is the root and the tree. One church representing the gentile nations of the world, and the other church being made up of Jews who have came to the faith. There are already about 20,000 messianic Jewish Christians in Israel today. We, the rest of the body will stand with them in spirit and minister to those on our own soil. The measuring of the temple is to set boundaries of protection for the true believers during the 70th week. These will be in the spirit of Jeremiah as they preach the gospel as if it was fire coming out of their mouth.
Jeremiah 5:14-14 (KJV) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.
These will be in the spirit of Moses as they command the water to turn into blood. These will be in the spirit of Elijah as they shut the heavens up so that it will not rain.
And these plagues that they call down is literally brought down by the Trumpets that is fueled with the prayers of the saints.
These will be sack cloth and ashes in the spirit of Jesus as they mourn for those who will not listen. And after they finish their testimony they will be killed. And they shall be raised from the dead after 3 1/2 days. And just as Jesus was raised and brought salvation to us all, when they rise, a remnant will be frightened and give glory to God and will be saved just before the final and 7th trumpet that is the Trump of God. And just like in Elijah’s time when he thought he was the only one, God told him that their was a remnant of 7,000 who had not bowed a knee to Baal, God reverses this at the end and only 7,000 are killed in the earthquake and the majority of them lived on and were saved.
My over hope is this event will finally end the divisiveness that is in the body of Christ today. No more, separation of Baptist, Pentecost, Methodist, Church of Christ etc., and finally become a full unity of the Body of Christ of one mind in one accord.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs I read the LP thinking that’s what you meant. Now I have read the post you added in the comments.
The timeline trying to show that Elijah wrote a letter after he had ascended to heaven is obviously incorrect. It may be that he wrote the letter before, but I don’t see the big deal. It is a big deal that he will take him to HEAVEN and did not see death. 
Anonymous
I don’t really see a connection to all the scriptures you shared to the two witnesses. Joshua and Zerubbabel, may be types but I don’t see them connected to the two witnesses. 
On the final point you make:
I do not think it is necessary for the body of Christ to be united in organizational fashion. The body of Christ has always been united in the Spirit. Those who follow the spirit operate in the unity of the body of Christ. Even if our  denominational forms and organizational forms, and , traditional forms appear to be divided – in the end it doesn’t really matter. 
Having that unity many seem too long for will not bring heaven on earth nor will it make the church more powerful.
If Christians don’t care about millions of Chinese Christians being persecuted, nor do they care about  truly being involved in the world missions –  then having a veneer of unity will change nothing . 
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence Joshua and Zerubbabel are NO valid option here Philip Williams Duane L Burgess Brett Dobbs Robert Shepherd #farFetched
Anonymous
Troy Day Joshua and Zerubbabel are the types.
Anonymous
Troy Day the 2 witnesses are the altar and the temple. Those are the bodies of the truly saved believers and the truly Spirit-filled believers who preserved the faith until the rise of the secular state that has killed these two witnesses. The secular state who no longer fear God can’t bury them because it needs them to preserve its secular authority.
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence let’s say I’m wrong about Elijah being transported to another location. If he was taken into heaven in his flesh we have a problem.
1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
John 3:13 (KJV) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
No flesh can enter into the kingdom of God or heaven without being glorified. And Jesus said that no man has entered heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:53-55 (KJV) 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
In order for Elijah to enter heaven he would have to be glorified. Once the process of glorification occurs then that person cannot die. So if the two witnesses had to be someone from the past, God would have to resurrect them from the dead without immediately glorifying them. Which that is a possibility.
Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
But this is all that scripture gives us. We don’t know 100% what happened to these afterwards.
Also the evidence to suggest that God is going to bring back two OT saints to finish the ministry is not very good. The best evidence of that is Malachi 4:5 (KJV) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
And we know that John the Baptist was the Elijah who this prophecy spoke about. So this tells us that it’s not actually Elijah who came but it was John the Baptist in the spirit of Elijah.
If this is our formula for how it works, then I we can easily draw the assumption that one of the two witnesses will not be Elijah himself, but someone in the spirit of Elijah.
Therefore it could be anyone from this present age. John 1:6-7 (KJV) 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
Luke 1:17 (KJV) And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Where did this power come from?
Luke 1:15 (KJV) For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.
The Holy Ghost gives us the ability to be a witness Jesus Christ. And then when tracing the olive tree and the candle stick, I don’t see how we can come any other conclusion besides the two witnesses being a Jewish believer and a gentile believer. And or Jewish believers and gentile believers.
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence Where does it say that Elijah did not die? Didn’t he sendt a letter after being caught up into heaven?
Anonymous
Whose going to Africa… so I know who to pray for? Troy?
I should post asking for prayer for an India crusade. I’ve been doing pastor’s meetings online, and the same two preachers want to put me on a screen for a gospel crusade from the 18th and 20th. They are hoping to draw a couple of thousand people. I’ve done maybe one evangelistic-themed meeting, but I’ve been having a burning desire and have been praying about doing that sort of ministry for many months, maybe a year now. So please pray for me too. Pray for them to be able to raise funds. Sorry to hijack the thread. Maybe I’ll make my own.
Anonymous
well it is in a way a global initiative
We are but a small group into the Great FINAL Commission
you would do well too I believe
Anonymous
Troy Day ya cant have people on the final commission who arent baptized in the holy ghost and thats about 90% of christendom.
ya need the HG to get the anything else from God especially a ministry
Anonymous
John Digsby TRUTH but many baptists still do
HOW about reformed – what mission means to them? Kyle Williams
Anonymous
Troy Day holy spirit is not holy ghost.
the new language is a tool to be used.
i left the baptist church because they stopped at water only.
i never joined catholicism because of all their bs.
i left pentecostalism because they mentioned satan too often.
Anonymous
HOW about reformed ?
Anonymous
Link Hudson NOT only you hijacked the post
but you hijacked the WRONG post
truly worrisome on SO many levels
Anonymous
Troy Day got no clue how that happebed. I distictly remember responding to the Africa post. I suppose it could ve human error. Sorry if that was tge case. Maybe it is akin to FB sending mebtags from your old posts on Sunday morning before I go to church.
Anonymous
John Digsby i have heard objectiobs to use of ‘Ghost’ since nowadays the word is otherwise used for deceased spirits. Given the words translated what is your objection to the use of “Holy Spirit’ instead of “Holy Ghost”?
Anonymous
Link Hudson because when church reads holy spirit they arent gonna understand the holy ghost.
If people use a version that says holy ghost ya get the teaching of holy ghost but when the holy ghost gets blasphemed to something else…… without the new language….. the people have nothing. When a spiritual covenant is mentioned they have no idea of a spiritual covenant.
we are all called to be pentecostal like, but ya need to recognize the teaching before you can take the teaching you see, to God, too clarify and solidify and then ya can walk in the confidence of a God given theology and not the never ending discussions about man made theology.
ya all do waste time with a book version that doesnt inspire you to think hard or take the info too God.
Anonymous
John Digsby i don’t follow your argument.
Anonymous
so much speculation on something which the Bible is silent on. Of course we all like to speculate on the unknown when perhaps we should be proclaiming the known. That is, Jesus died for the sin of all , will forgive those who seek Him and He is returning to judge the living and the dead. Speculation does give us something to talk about in the locker room instead of performing on the playing field.
Anonymous
Philip Williams just a brief warning to wanna-be theologians like this guy Crossby or Cossby wasnt here long enough in the group to remember his name HOWEVER, if you are just a drive-by here pls dont be that guy This is a serious theological group that has outlasted many wannaBEs on the internet for over a decade now. Express your theological concerns; engage in a theological debate but there is NO need to get all judgmental on the internets If you feel so strong ask Neil Steven Lawrence Michael Chauncey Skip Pauley and others to demolish your anti-pre-trib humanistic faith and we will pray you rapture ready; Tony Edwards not sure who the Cossby guy really was but took the time to hear one of his EASTER pre-pandemic sermons just to make sure there is NO mistake. The feller was more concerned with not messing his singing voice than actually preaching a good EASTER sermon for the church that has invited him. Was scared to hear his singing after that to be honest. Kept on saying to the congregation – DONT wanna mess your theology 😮 of which he had pressius little #ohWell
Anonymous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcnnpJgwL84
Anonymous
John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
anna the prophetess is the spirit.
the water is john the baptist
the blood is zacharia, elizabeths husband the priest in the temple.
Anonymous
John Digsby huh?
Anonymous
Link Hudson just a nugget for yas.
Anonymous
John Digsby are the 2 witnesses of REV no modern day prophets? Michael Chauncey Duane L Burgess that change GOD? Ricky Grimsley
Anonymous
Troy Day you wont find any catholicism in the two witnesses.
Anonymous
the two witness are truth and power.
God always brings truth
and always shows up with power.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess are the 2 witnesses of Rev NOT prophets – pls tell us
Anonymous
According to Zechariah 4:11 – 14 “11. Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12. And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13. And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”