| Marc Jackson |
Dan Irving What in this article is worrying you so much that we have not already discussed? Terry brought much of it in his Death of Denominations discourse The kingdom-now appropriation within AG has also been thoroughly talked about here. Would you outline what’s new and what is concerning you in this particular text? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/death-of-denominations/ |
| Marc Jackson |
Dan Irving We read the article. What are your concerns? |
| Joseph D. Absher |
Mr Troy Day you have mentioned some problems with the denomination of the Assemblies of God. the NAR as you have called. at what point did it become something that ministers were willing to fight over. I ask because i don’t think the fight for identity of the church is over |
| Dan Irving |
Troy Day What are my concerns? If the issue of false teaching in the traditional Pentecostal church has been exhausted, it may be time for chat groups devoted to Pentecostal Theology to sign-off. But, I don’t recall Terry Wiles provided anything like an “end all” statement on the subject. And, if heresy is being tolerated in any traditional Pentecostal denomination, does it not require continuous re-airing? |
| Marc Jackson |
Well Terry did provide lots of information about his personal participation in end-all kingdom-now/NAR wide spread in AG. Was it successful and well received – probably not. If of interest I will re-read and summarize the points of the article but at a first glance I did not see anything new AG is doing to prevent the issues you are calling upon… |
| Dan Irving |
My concern is this: Denominations are a brand. One could trust when they visited an AG, COG, Southern Baptist, etc., they were entering into a place having doctrinal boundaries and established in a given orthodoxy. (e.g. We like restaurant franchises because we know what to expect.) I think Terry Wiles as much as acknowledged that because of the AG’s philosophy of local control, the AG does not really have control. The unaware/unsuspecting should understand this and be warned. When a credentialed minister of a denomination raises a warning regarding his own denomination, I take that as front-page news. |
| Marc Jackson |
Dan Irving I summarized the article in the following 9 points. – I could no make them 10 even if I wanted. No case for dominion theology was made in the article though TV preachers were mentioned that could or could be connected.Article is right for the time period 2005-2015 when the brother left AG IT follows AG right past where we left it with the Florida Revival discussion. Rick Warren and Empower 21 were the major themes that followed in AG after Todd Bently and Michael Brown. – SPS even named a whole annual meeting after Empower 21 much of it to no avail but it was hot topic at the time. So here’s my summary :(1) For me it all starts with the embracing of Rick Warren theology – a non Pentecostal teaching enforced on many Pentecostal churches(2) Empower 21 was a major force at one time just like many other were and then it faded away like many other have (3) Growing churches but not the Kingdom is a numbers game that is not new either. Predominantly American so no global scope or major effect on Global Pentecostalism (4) The Circle Maker book has been also discussed in the group and rejected – nothing new there either http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-circle-maker/(5) Bill Johnson believes (or not) in grave sucking also not news(6) Kenneth Copeland is not AG neither is Brian Houston – WOF and Hillsong old news as well(7) Reinhard Bonnke’s record is impeccable (8) “ The AG actively marketed the “church kit” that Downey was selling which turned over your local church to this miniseries for 12 weeks. Each week they would provide you with a video sermon given by a Christian celebrity to match that week’s episode. †– we have long known of such video tapes and other media sold to AG churches to promote church growth. No such tapes however have been published or found in this group to review SO maybe a point worth exploring further (9) “an impartation of her “teaching anointing and revelation.” Has been in AG and Pentecostalism ever since The only thing new is the confirmation of the “kits” which Terry Wiles said he had knowledge of too but never really seen them. Apparently they do exist and fishing for them continues Joseph D. Absher Auuthor of the article could be invited to shed more light his story and motives What am I missing here in this brief over review that is worth our time in further research? |
| Dan Irving |
I see that Mr. Wade’s article was written two years ago. Old News? |
| Marc Jackson |
Hardly so. At least not for me. The article covers a very important period of time 2005-2015 right after the crash of the FL revivals which continued AG’s bad list from Fuller-NAR-Wagner in 1999-2002through FL revivals 2005and then the said period with Warren’s purpose driven + emergent churches + multi campus / shepherd2rancher and so on strategies for church growthAs a result PEW forum reports our AG growth but to what cost? It is a valid question that needs to be addressed theologically We need to learn more about the period from the said media / tapes/ manuals and “church kit” which Terry may or may not tell us more aboutI just hope with the church kits we did not lose the Holy GhostBTW you may remember we discussed AG stats were not well prepared, but compared apples to oranges. YES AG is growing but outside of the US. Most states show rapid decline in the past 2-3-5 years all across the US https://religionnews.com/…/southern-baptists-decline…/ |
| Walter Polasik |
Troy Day: You run a good FB page. You always seem to introduce very interesting topics. This is one of the major ones. Right off the bat, as an AG man I had to respond. The AG has been in a doctrinal fight between Classical Pentecostals (like George O. Wood, Opal Reddin, evangelist Greg Hubbard or myself) on the one hand and the “New Apostolics” (like Todd Bentley and Mike Bickle) and Crazy Charismatics (like Benny Hinn) on the other. My dad’s own church had a split over this. I’ve been in the AG since 1990. I came to Christ in a Slavic independent Classical Pentecostal church. You make a good, tidy summary of the issues involved. Yes, I’ve never heard anything untoward regarding Bonnke. Warren and the “seeker-friendly” churches are old news. (I doubt the AG’s Division of Foreign Missions will take kindly to Warren’s “Chris-lam” (!!)). Copeland and WOF are old news. The Emergent Church (Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, et. al.) should by now be becoming more transparent for the confused Liberals they are. As to videos and kits, these are tools that act as “cheat sheets” for pastors that probably don’t want to do the hard work of praying, study if the Word, preaching and personal evangelism that have always grown the Lord’s church through the ages. And yes, large numbers and congregations are no indicator of the quality of God’s genuine work. |
| Marc Jackson |
Walter Polasik Thank you for a kind comment but the topic was introduced by Dan Irving who has made a solid case for it. And though many AGers have tried to deny it this time this one sticks in this group. Because this is a facebook group, not a page, forum, post board or anything else which golden agers here may not know the difference of.As many others who have not been in AG since 90s this post and many others are a shock. But for long time researchers like Dan Irving the terminology is pretty clear – AG mingled with many groups in the 90s WOFthen some Wagner and NARthen some FL revivalists and emerging church – Bently, Brown and more and more others in recent few years 1. they get their ideas2. run them through AG3. anticipate and perhaps gain some growth 4. and then sign them off with a resolution like Resolution #16It is the only way denominations nowadays operate – take someones idea + make a cash bank for it = monetize growth |
| Walter Polasik |
Oh yes, forgot to mention church-growth guru (the late) C. Peter Wagner. |
| Marc Jackson |
what you mentioned mixed wagners NAR with Bently – read my whole post, pls, for AG Bently and FL revivals was what they used to oppose the influence of NAR and wagner |
| Terry Wiles |
Not much here but slander. No knowledge of the AG and no discernment of the Holy Spirit. Yes, There are charlatanes in every group and/or church. The Apostle Paul warned the elders at Ephesus. It’s not that the AG “mingled with many groups.†Many groups mingle with the AG, usually looking for money, power, or fame. They do their harm to the Body of Christ then move on with pockets full and no accountability. May God give us pastors after His own heart. All for soulsTerry Wiles, Bishop |
| Ruth Brigantti |
Terry Wiles well said. |
| Walter Polasik |
Terry Wiles: For the record, the AG (and as a member and graduate of Evangel University I should know) has a history of “schmoozing” with questionable theologies. From the confusion produced in the popular tent-meeting healing revivals of the ’50’s to Thomas F. Zimmerman’s ecumenizing with the Catholic church in the “Key ’73” evangelization campaign, to G. Raymond Carlson sending “ambassadors” to Rome for more ecumenical “dialogues” to Jesse Miranda signing the ECT document in the ’90’s to Thomas Trask embracing various popular charismatic preachers (including Benny Hinn) to being tolerant of various WOF doctrines like the “hundredfold” teaching of TBN money-man John Avanzini. This isn’t the first time Classical Pentecostals have sparred with the “neos”, the “charismaniacs” within the AG. |
| Nathaniel Rodriguez |
Over 40 years ago many if not most AG churches stopped inviting David Wilkerson…the charge…he was too negative…! |
| Joseph D. Absher |
How you don’t mind me adding this. I found it the other day. https://youtu.be/dvoAGEZf-nI |
| Dan Irving |
Had they invited Dr. Wilkerson into their churches, rather than the “prophetic” crowd, they would have saved many individuals heartbreak and spiritual ruin. |
| Marc Jackson |
Well Dan they chose invited ol’ Benny instead 🙂 |
| Walter Polasik |
Troy Day: Unless they changed it, AGTS still has the “Benny Hinn” media ministries room in that building. They put it up initially when Hinn briefly joined the AG (no doubt to give himself a patina of legitimacy and the AG a “super star” in their midst). After the doctrinal committee took a closer look at Hinn’s teaching and tried to correct him the “romance” broke, Hinn (oredictably) pulled out and the AG was stuck “feeling salty”. 😇 |
| Kevin Wayne |
My parents spent 20 out of the last 25 years of their lives in the AOG. Only to have the church they helped build taken from them by some control freak who likes to Beat the Sheep from the pulpit. I would never have bothered with them. I preferred the Foursquare church we attended when I was a teenager. Even better was Calvary Chapel which I found in my adult years, but we’re not doctrinally on the same page anymore. |
| Marc Jackson |
Terry Are you referring to the article or the discussion? Those “training kits” keep on coming back dont they? Now I may have not written Resolution 16 but I was very much part of Empower 21 and can assure the article is spot on for that… |
| Terry Wiles |
Resolution 16 was tabled which effectively kills a resolution for either the purpose of doing Away with it or revising it. It was revised in committee and then adopted as a “white paper†by the executives. Later it was finalized as a position paper where it gives guidance to extreme doctrines and/or movements. That is where it stands today. The AG is, in my opinion, being unfairly attacked in this thread. They have always strongly encouraged solid biblical teaching emphasizing the Baptism in the Holy Spirit for the enduement of power from on high. At the executive level this is especially true with a high standard set and proper discipline brought to its’ cred holders who go into error. |
| Marc Jackson |
So people asking questions is considered an unfair attack? |
| Terry Wiles |
Troy Day No. But laying charges is. |
| Terry Wiles |
As an example is this quote:“…AG mingled with many groups in the 90s WOF then some Wagner and NARthen some FL revivalists and emerging church – Bently, Brown and more and more others in recent few years 1. they get their ideas2. run them through AG3. anticipate and perhaps gain some growth 4. and then sign them off with a resolution like Resolution #16It is the only way denominations nowadays operate – take someones idea + make a cash bank for it = monetize growth.â€It is true many churches bought into the nonsense but the AG itself worked to correct it as did Wimber with Toronto. The cash cow only worked for the circus promoters. But eventually all error comes to an end. Today we live in an age where truth (sound doctrine) has fallen into the street and churches gain numbers by hype rather than Holy Spirit convicting/transforming preaching. It’s a scary thing for those of us called to preach the word,(sometimes through music, other times through word and signs following). Ultimately we are accountable.My point is the responsibility lays at the feet of the man or woman called of God to preach the word and shepherd the flock that God has given oversight of. |
| Marc Jackson |
Well seems like you are not disagreeing with what’s said making it not a slander but a correct observation. Sure, it is straight forward but the brief format of internet communication does not give us much room to go into a theological debt. Yet, all points listed have been well discussed in this group. Slander is a strong accusation to the truth being spoken. I hope we are all searching for the truth here (and the revival kits which seem more and more that AG distributed back then). Now I was not at the closed discussions of Resolution 16 but I was @ the Empower 21 SPS where Dr. Byron Klaus said the faithful words “remain critically loyal to the denomination.” With this said, there is more than one and two in this group that have invested several family generations in the work of AG and have deserved to be heard even if not liked by all. |
| Terry Wiles |
Troy Day. Agreed. However, words become slanderous when they point at things that have nothing to do with the charged entity. “AG†is a collective noun that commonly refers to the organization as a whole. To my knowledge the “AG†never produced nor distributed revival kits nor endorsed the content of any. And the “AG†never profited from any such material. That is most likely the reason they are so difficult to come by. Other organizations or individuals did produce manual and or instruction videos. Some of them were products of Toronto, Brownsville, Lakeland, the school of revival, etc.. they were produced by a variety of speakers, teachers, and or self proclaimed prophets. The basic idea was that every person could reproduce the manifestations and generate an end time revival that would hasten Christ’s return. Like any pyramid scheme the leaders drew the crowds and took in lots of money. But the end result was division and confusion which is a clear sign there was little from God and little that lasted. My opinion is different believing every generation is responsible for reaching the lost at its door steps. For that we need continuous outpourings of the Holy Spirit. But few want to seek the giver of the gift. They seek after the signs. In the age of social media there are many who are willing to produce signs and even more who run to purchase their potions of fake oil. |
| Marc Jackson |
IMO you just confirmed everything I wrote thus making it not slanderous but truth confirmed from 2-3 witnesses. I think you are also well aware of AG heavily involve in all of the listed events and movements for the said reasons. Wagner is in AG sponsored publications till 2002, the kits of which you now show avid knowledge are a fact, and so on and so on It just proves my point Check the link – who is the Global co-chair http://empowered21.com/about/leadership/ |
| Terry Wiles |
Troy Day Interesting list. And interesting objectives. |
| Walter Polasik |
Terry Wiles: Sometimes these threads go long and I skim through them. Your reply to Troy above, though, is very thoughtful. Obviously if I believed the Assemblies of God as a whole were going bad I wouldn’t still be a part of it. But you’re right, there sure have been a lot of “hype-sters” and opportunists who have “crept in unawares” (Jude 1:4) into our midst and have peddled unbiblical things in the name of the Spirit. You are so right that we need “fresh outpourings of the Holy Spirit” and to “seek the Giver” instead of just the Gifts. |
| Marc Jackson |
Walter Polasik are you saying that you too agree with the claim made above that this thread is slanderous and lying charges? |
| Marc Jackson |
This question Walter Polasik |
| Walter Polasik |
No, I never said such a thing. I DID say that the AG has had issues it needs to work on but it’s not gotten so bad that I’m pulling membership. |
| Marc Jackson |
So do you agree with the claim made above that this thread is slanderous and lying charges? Walter Polasik |
| Walter Polasik |
Troy Day: I agree that you like to beat dead horses. 😇 |
| Marc Jackson |
The claim claim after information you posted in the thread So it is naturally to ask if you agree with the claim? |
| Walter Polasik |
Troy Day: Can we get back to theology instead of you asking whether I was lead to believe that a sharpened pencil has a point and makes one? |
| Marc Jackson |
Sure but after you answer the question There has been requests to delete the post of Dan Irving on the said claims after what you posted. It is imperative the issue is resolved promptly |
| Dan Irving |
Troy Day, I am surprised we have censors. Are you aware of the legal definition of “slander?” Are some subjects off limits because they hit too close to home for some? |
| Marc Jackson |
Dan Irving did you read above where the case for that was made? |
| Dan Irving |
Troy Day, The statement, “Not much here but slander. No knowledge of the AG and no discernment of the Holy Spirit” is hardly a “case.” |
| Walter Polasik |
Troy Day: So, what exactly are you advocating? That decent people in the AG “jump ship” and join the Church of God? |
| Marc Jackson |
I was just asking you the question you’ve avoided to answer for a week now |
| Dan Irving |
Walter Polasik, Nothing of the sort. |
| Marc Jackson |
There was another allegation to slander above Dan Irving |
| Dan Irving |
Troy Day, You must be referring to: “words become slanderous when they point at things that have nothing to do with the charged entity.” If that’s a categorical denial of any veracity to the article, it would contradict Terry’s earlier statements to the effect bad things were/are allowed to encroach into AG assemblies due to the fact it is a loose affiliation of ministries, rather than a traditional denominational structure (if I understood him correctly.) If so, the matter should be rendered very clear, that when a seeker enters an AG assembly they should not presume upon its orthodoxy in doctrine, practice, nor the potential for its association with aberrant ministries and organizations. The seeker should be warned against the assumption that by walking into McDonald’s they will get a Big Mac. It’s called . . Sunlight. |
| Hank Becker |
Where do you live , have you pastored I the A O G Have you checked out the Church of God of Prophecy |
| Joseph D. Absher |
Pronouncing the death of the NFL in 2018 will be an easy one to follow. I do think they have significantly deminished there brand. But football will remain a vital part of the fabric of our culture. It does teach valuable skills. Teamwork, leadership, mentoring, execution, aggression, seizing the opportunity, and many other things we hold as manly traits. Unfortunately it is a time consuming diversion for the church and in some cases idolatry. If this was given last year it would have been more forthtelling than at the end of a bad season. |
| Walter Polasik |
Joseph D. Absher: Sure football teaches those, but that’s not the only place to get those qualities. In fact there are better places. Football also teaches the “jock” culture, that athletic and good-looking guys should take all the girls and not intelligent, creative and perhaps not so athletic guys. It teaches that popularity is one key to success. It teaches vanity, pride, and arrogance. Are you sure those are the qualities you want Christian young men to learn? When I was a student at Evangel University (Assemblies of God) I knew a football player who also served on a children’s ministry team while at the same time bounced a different cheerleader on his knees each week. Hypocrisy like that I saw too much of. No thanks, Satan can play football in hell for all I care! |
| Walter Polasik |
It’s truth, not bias. Wake up! |
| Joseph D. Absher |
I’m praying for you. You got church hurt. You high school hurt. You got girl hurt. Man you’re hurting all over. |
| Walter Polasik |
As a matter of fact I am. That too is life. |
| Marc Jackson |
Walter Polasik I see you are not answering my questions anymore |
| Joseph D. Absher |
I know you are very capable. Isn’t there some release in worship. Worship to God has always helped me focus on the things that really matter. I truly am concerned for you. Some of the language you use is unfortunate for a scholar. i.e. Chick, I’m really at a loss. I deleted my remarks about your statements on high school football because I think they are stereo types. Trust me not every football player is good looking lol but I understand some stereo types often have a bit of truth. I have no desire to harm you in anyway so I deleted it. God bless you brother. I mean that. Sure life is tough and full of hurt but each and every one of them is an occasion to seek God and speak of his healing grace. |
| Walter Polasik |
Troy Day: I’m sorry, which questions? |
| Marc Jackson |
The ones you always ask me to repeat… |
| Walter Polasik |
Troy Day: I’m sorry, I DO have a life outside of FB. I like to drop in and love to interact with you guys but. . . you know how long some of those threads get, right? |
| Marc Jackson |
aha seems you life outside is to avoid the actual question even after you asked what it was and after you are pointed to them specifically 🙂 Walter Polasik |
| Walter Polasik |
Troy Day: You’re playing with my head using liberal accusation tactics. |
| Marc Jackson |
No not really Just 2 clicks up Walter Polasik https://www.facebook.com/…/permalink/1597682476953428/… |
| Link Hudson |
I spent my teenage years very much involved in the A/G, doing Bible Quiz, going to church night after night. I went to other churches later, but I’ve dropped in on A/G’s from time to time and have been going to one recently. I’m not sure why he is concerned about Jentzen Franklin, other than the fact that he is now a celebrity and mega-church pastor. I don’t know why he condemns all the preachers he does in his list of preachers. But I don’t keep up with whose who in the US and Europe and what they are doing. I understand the concerns about WOF teaching. That’s been an issue in the A/G at least since the 1980s. What I’ve seen of Bonnke is very Pentecostal preaching. Is his claiming the dead have been raised in his meetings your sole basis for condemning him? Raising the dead is a Biblical thing. One of my concerns with A/Gs in the US is the following formula for evangelism, which was common with Foursquare’s I’ve seen.- Don’t tell the audience who Jesus is.- Don’t tell them who God is.- Don’t tell them what Jesus did on the cross.- Don’t explain forgiveness.- Don’t tell them that Jesus rose from the dead.Then have them repeat some prayer that mentions the name of Jesus, and declare them saved without ever having even heard the Gospel. The idea that you can declare someone saved just for repeating a prayer, even if you have preached the Gospel to them, without their having faith and repentance is terrible enough. Yet it seems the norm in certain streams of evangelical churches, including many of the Pentecostal ones. I wanted to comment on the blog but the instructions are as clear as mud. |
| Daniel J Hesse |
We survive by our morphing into whatever in response to whomever and we wonder wherever. |
Varnel Watson
at the verge of destiny … Gary Micheal Epping