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What scripture do you base the idea that Heaven is a planet? (Finis J. Dake)
Varnel Watson
Heaven is a planet 80 times bigger than Earth! Or so the late Percy Collett revealed to the world. For years I’ve had a vague memory about a Missionary with a story about a trip to Heaven. Thanks to the wonders of Google I tracked it down – he visited Australia in 1989, on a speaking tour of various Pentecostal Churches. One of which was near my home town and I had managed to catch a radio advert for, thus the memory.
Thanks to his faithful disciples’ transcripts, and notes taken down by sceptical investigators, I gather Dr. Percy told a lurid tale of being carried to Heaven, which is 3 trillion miles away (half a light-year), in just six hours by an Angel, dipping past the Sun and planets on the way. He saw the New Earth, which is being constructed near Heaven, then Heaven itself, which is 2 million miles around. Immense buildings form God’s City, with the Giant Gold Cube City from the Apocalypse included.
Heaven as a Supra-Planet
Heaven is a Supra-Planet?
Such visions are nothing new and Dr. Collett’s visions don’t add much to the canon. The pseudonymous “Enoch” started the Judeo-Christian craze for big visionary journeys, but the Akkadians and Sumerians had their own versions, predating the current crop by a millennium or two. Updated to a post-Copernican Universe, but the message isn’t new or startling. Jesus is still coming back “some time soon” so you’d better be good, for goodness’ sake…
The physics of Heaven is a bit more interesting. A solid planet can’t be 80 times bigger than Earth, as its gravity compresses its atoms into higher and higher densities past a certain mass. At most it would be 3-4 times Earth size. Even made of the lightest element, hydrogen, means planets max-out at just over Jupiter’s size for pure hydrogen planets – thus at most about 15 times as big as Earth. To be 80 times Earth’s size, the planet must be a “Super-mundane” planet – an artificial shell world around a natural object within. To be 80 times bigger than Earth, then by Newton’s gravitational equations, that means it masses (80)^2= 6,400 times Earth’s mass to give Earth gravity on the surface. If we assume a negligible Shell mass, then that’s a 20 Jupiter mass central object – coincidentally (?) a brown dwarf object might lurk in the Oort Cloud at roughly 3 trillion miles with about that mass. Whitmire & Matese, within the constraints computed by Lorenzo Iorio, would put a Super-Jovian out there.
So is Heaven really a vast artificial planet? Once upon a time, it was a solid or aethereal shell directly above our heads and we were like deep-sea fish on this heavier, grosser world. Once the crystal or aethereal spheres were shattered in the 16th & 17th Centuries, Heaven has been looking for a new locale. More modern updates have pushed it into Hyperspace, or totally other space-times or Eternities, but maybe it conceptually lurks just beyond our present day reach, and always will. Alternatively, the Mystics, like Jakob Boehme, place it “next door” to our everyday world, accessible by all who are ready to see it. http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/?s=flat+earth
Cameron C Smith
You’d have to show me in the Bible
Varnel Watson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2tp1OqtXxI
Cameron C Smith
Let me be clear, I’m not saying heaven definitely IS NOT a planet. But the two verses he cited aren’t exactly saying that it is
Varnel Watson
the verses cited should be sufficient
Cameron C Smith
Troy Day sufficient?
Varnel Watson
more than enough
Cameron C Smith
I should have been more clear. Sufficient for what? Neither one says that heaven is a planet
Nigel Dodds
Genesis 1:1 refers to Heaven and Earth as separate places. The Earth in Genesis 1:1 refers to the entire visible Universe. We can deduce this reasonably by understanding the differences between Heaven and Earth given in the Scripture. Heaven is God’s residence and nothing in Heaven is hidden. God is not a mystery in Heaven; the light of his countenance illuminates the whole of Heaven. There is no night in Heaven, as God’s light never fades. The Earth is first described in Genesis as being created in darkness. This means the Earth was created as a place that was completely cut off from the presence of God and from knowing Him. The Earth can only know of God what he chooses to reveal of himself. Today, we have telescopes that can observe the outer edges of the Universe but nowhere is it possible to see God. God is a mystery to those who live in the Earth, so clearly the Earth is our whole visible Universe, which is mostly in darkness. Heaven is not therefore part of our Universe. It is a separate and invisible place.
Varnel Watson
I have a problem believing The Earth in Genesis 1:1 refers to the entire visible Universe…
Gerardo de Dominicis
Speculations without biblical proof.
Varnel Watson
Dake explains it well and gives the verses Rico Hero
Rico Hero
Nigel Dodds,
Re: Heaven is not part of our Universe
Hi Nigel, Do you see Heaven being similar to the city of light in the series “The 100”? That it exits in ones mind and can be linked to others minds?
Lk.17 :
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
or do you believe Heaven exists outside of time?
Varnel Watson
Heaven may also refer to the endless planets, stars, and galaxies of the universe. The Bible says: “When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have ordained” (Psalm 8:3).
The words heaven and heavens are used 718 times in Scripture.
They mean the air, clouds, sky, expanse, stars, and the planet on which God dwells.
The Planet Heaven (2 Cor. 12); Created before Earth (Gen 1:1; 2:1; Job 38; 4-7)
Heaven is a created planet like Earth (Gen 1:1; 2:1; Ps. 8:3)
Highest Planet (Eph. 1:21; 4-1; Heb. 7:26)
A paradise (2 Cor. 12:1-4; Rev. 2:7)
God’s dwelling place (Dt. 26:15; 1 Ki. 8:30, 39, 43, 49)
Location ==> …in the north part of the universe, in relationship to the Earth (Isa. 14:12-14; Ps. 75:6-7)
…above (1 Ki. 8:23)
…and in the highest part of creation (Job 22:12; Lk. 2:14; Eph. 1:21; 4:10)
Shape
…round (Job 22:14; Ps. 19:6)
…like the Earth (Isa. 40:22; Eccl. 1:6)
size
…unknown, but perhaps larger than Earth, judging from the size of its cities (Rev. 21:9-27), from the size of other planets compared to Earth and from the number of inhabitants (Jer. 33:22; Heb. 12:22-23)
…has real cities (Heb. 11:10-15; 13:14; Rev. 21:2, 9-27)
…all material things like we have on Earth (Rom. 1:20; Phil. 2-10)
…Men have been taken to heaven and have lived there in natural bodies for thousands of years (Gen. 5:24; 2 Ki. 2:1, 11; Zech. 14:11-14; Heb. 11:5; Rev. 11:3-11)
Why is there so much doubt about life on other planets when the Bible states that God dwells on the planet called Heaven?
if your Church never preached one sermon that depicted Heaven as a planet. It was only ever ‘paradise’. Well, why not be specific with the terminology? CHANGE IT It would make a lot of sense too with the fall of angels as per Genesis.
They fell from a planet.
Also, does this prove life exists on a Planet other than Earth?
Yes I believe it does.
Here we all are searching for answers and yet, here in the Bible, it states another Planet with life on it exists
Rico Hero
Denying that Heaven is a real place is , perhaps, the real reason we have supporters of Post Tribulation.
Varnel Watson
I learned this just couple of years ago when Link stated the church will not be going to heaven. Then when I questioned his stance he changed to just asking a question about that and not making a definite statement to agree upon But right then I figured there;s something quite wrong with an eschatology that keeps the church out of heaven And such always fail to present a full eschatological plan – just bits here and there Dake is spot on on heaven being physical and real
Link Hudson
Troy Day I think I just asked a question or ask you to show me. But the church may be in heaven after the 1000 years, and descend as a bride at the end out of heaven.
THe problem with pre-trib is the pre-tribbers can’t show where the Bible teaches it, just assume it, then argue how other verses fit into it. The exception would be turning the apostasia into the rapture, to get a direct statement of the rapture as pre-trib…but you’ve got ot make the apostasia into the rapture to do that.
Link Hudson
I may have said the Bible does directly state you go to heaven when you die, and I probably related the account of a conversation with a Bible college dean about that.
Varnel Watson
There is no problem with pre-Trib There is just people who love this world more than they love Heaven
Varnel Watson
Yes you said all that to imply the church is not going to the Heavens but this is not the discussion here I simply used your Link as example to what Rico Hero said I believe he is spot on on this seemingly small but very important eschatological detail Dake’s got it right on this one
Link Hudson
Troy Day Have you considered the problem is with people so uneager to suffer for Jesus that they hold to an eschatology to get out of it, when they can’t offer any real evidence for it at all? ‘Come up hither’ as evidence for pre-trib rapture is incredibly weak, not to mention just about as allegorical of an interpretation as anything amils or post tribbers can do with Revelations.
Link Hudson
Troy Day I do not see where the church goes to heaven at the rapture. Show me where it does. The Bible shows Jesus returning, not coming back part-way, only to go up and come back again. W here does that come from in the Bible? Where do you get either multiple parousia or a 7-year parousia?
Varnel Watson
No not really. Most ready pre-Tribbers I know come from churches that have been heavily persecuted and tested trough fire When the trumpet sounds they are rapture ready to GO So is Terry Wiles
Varnel Watson
Have many friends in China working there right now Joseph Castillo being one who comes to mind
Link Hudson
Troy Day I need to get out of this fight or fight back mode with you Troy. I shouldn’t try to discourage you, or you me. I see no reason from scripture to believe pre-trib. That’s why I let go of the idea many years ago. If it’s true, I’d expect it to be in the Bible–not just a theory you can assume and work scriptures around the theory. All eschatalogical theories have some assumptions in them. I realize that.
You can say post-tribbers don’t care much for heaven, though we are all waiting for the heavenly city. I could say pre-trib appeals to people who do not want to suffer (though there may be some truth to that.) I do find it sad if Chinese Christians in China are being indoctrinated with pre-trib. I hope it doens’t take root much over there. They have a diversity of belief over there, apparently.
Varnel Watson
they are now saying there’s fight, flight and freeze – new science proves it or so they say nowadays
Varnel Watson
SO Link since you are chatty on this OP where do you disagree with DAKE about the Heavens being a planet?
Link Hudson
Troy Day I would say the video sound-bite on the page offers exactly zero evidence that heaven is a ‘planet’ if you define ‘planet’ as a round globe in the sky, which, if visible, would appear as a star.
Country does not equal planet. City does not equal planet. In Revelation, a city descends to earth.
By the way, I see no reason to believe that God must be bound by the equations Newton or Einstein discovered. There may be some evidence that the speed of light has not remained constant over time. High Ross says the new heaven and new earth will have different laws of physics because a structure the size of the New Jerusalem would collapse in on itself as sphere under the current laws of physics.
Some of the Ancient Near East scholars might argue that the ‘firmament”, the Raqia, was actually supposed to be a solid dome over a flat earth. Some scientists believe there may be an edge to the universe? Our galaxy, according to one documentary I saw, appears to be in the very center of several rings of galaxies. What if the raqia actually refers to the edge of the physical creation, the ‘universe’ as scientists concieve it, and heaven is outside of that?
All this is speculation. Dake’s theory seems less reasonable than mine, IMO, and don’t Mormon’s believe heaven is a star or planet called Kolob?
As far as visions go, I read part of an old book ‘Within His Gates’– some kind of vision of ‘heaven’ as I recall, but it seemed to fit with the idea of the millenial kingdom, IMO.
Varnel Watson
So once again Link you call the Bible zero evidence. I can of course argue either side of this issue and it aint even a great concern of mine, but when you call the Bible zero evidence it is a sign
Cameron C Smith
Troy Day He didn’t call the Bible “zero” he called the misuse of it ZERO
Link Hudson
Huh? Why do you like to twist people’s comments? ‘another country’ is zero Biblical evidence for ‘another planet.’ Country does not equal planet. City does not equal planet.
I don’t know if Dake offerred any more evidence for his theory than that sound bite. If that’s all he’s got, then that is all the more reason to be ready to spit out the sticks when it comes to Dake.
Varnel Watson
Because plenty of Bible verses were cited Why should we call the Bible 0 evidence if it dont fit our interpretation? Discarding everyone elses interpretation as 0 evidence is no way to excel in theology
Link Hudson
Troy Day I’m responding to the Dake video. Use of ‘city’ and ‘country’ do not prove heaven is a planet. And that’s not a lot of scritpure.
Link Hudson
Troy Day I’ve had a look at scriptures you posted in a post. References to heaven being ‘above’ do not prove that heaven is a planet. Which verses do you think prove that heaven is a planet? PLease quote and explain.
Louise Cummings
Heaven. The third planet if you want it called a planet. I just call it Heaven.
Rico Hero
Heaven must be a planet because “the invisible things..are clear seen, being understood by the things that are made”
Romans 1:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Since Heaven and Earth were created “in the beginning”. Heaven has country and city,etc. we are without excuse to think otherwise
Varnel Watson
The words heaven and heavens are used 718 times in Scripture.
They mean the air, clouds, sky, expanse, stars, and the planet on which God dwells.
The Planet Heaven (2 Cor. 12); Created before Earth (Gen 1:1; 2:1; Job 38; 4-7)
Heaven is a created planet like Earth (Gen 1:1; 2:1; Ps. 8:3)
Highest Planet (Eph. 1:21; 4-1; Heb. 7:26)
A paradise (2 Cor. 12:1-4; Rev. 2:7)
God’s dwelling place (Dt. 26:15; 1 Ki. 8:30, 39, 43, 49)
Location ==> …in the north part of the universe, in relationship to the Earth (Isa. 14:12-14; Ps. 75:6-7)
…above (1 Ki. 8:23)
…and in the highest part of creation (Job 22:12; Lk. 2:14; Eph. 1:21; 4:10)
Shape
…round (Job 22:14; Ps. 19:6)
…like the Earth (Isa. 40:22; Eccl. 1:6)
size
…unknown, but perhaps larger than Earth, judging from the size of its cities (Rev. 21:9-27), from the size of other planets compared to Earth and from the number of inhabitants (Jer. 33:22; Heb. 12:22-23)
…has real cities (Heb. 11:10-15; 13:14; Rev. 21:2, 9-27)
…all material things like we have on Earth (Rom. 1:20; Phil. 2-10)
…Men have been taken to heaven and have lived there in natural bodies for thousands of years (Gen. 5:24; 2 Ki. 2:1, 11; Zech. 14:11-14; Heb. 11:5; Rev. 11:3-11)
Why is there so much doubt about life on other planets when the Bible states that God dwells on the planet called Heaven?
Link Hudson
I went through your list. How is any of that evidence that heaven is a planet? Where does the Bible say that if something is above it must be a ‘planet’?
Isaiah 14:13a NKJV
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
Do the stars go all the way to the very edge of the universe?
Varnel Watson
Not my list. This is from DAKE Bible. You said the Bible he cited was 0 evidence. I re-posted the Bible verses he cited. From this point on your argument should be with “his list” because the list is not mine. I am sure Rico Hero could post more quotes from DAKE on the subject if you still need them to be objective
Link Hudson
Troy Day I said zero evidence about the Dake video. Did you cite the list as coming from Dake? I did not see that. It might be a good idea to edit and point that out.
Still the Bible reader has no more evidence that heaven is shaped like a planet.
Rico Hero
Re: Do the stars go all the way to the very edge of the universe?
The Universe most likely has no edge. Currently the observable universe is estimated at 93 billion light years. ( or 6000 years for YEC fans:). Measurements do not show “an edge” or a curve. The Universe is most likely infinite in size
Link Hudson
Rico Hero I’ve seen other theories pte ented in documentaries including a Christian one, that the universe. Has a boundary outside of which there theoretically may be no matter, space or time.
Rico Hero
That sounds more like a Hypothesis, Link. Even so, I dont think space , time , or matter will ever not exist. I am basing this on the plain word of scripture saying God is eternal. Eternal means time without end
Rico Hero
Re : Still the Bible reader has no more evidence that heaven is shaped like a planet.
Sounds like no evidence (except– and maybe) a statement in the bible saying “Heaven is a planet” will convince some people. Why? I think its due to tribalism.
3000 years ago Israel was lead out of Egypt in signs and wonders. At Mt Sinai, they received the Law, The 72 leaders ate with God and Moses met regularly with God “face to face, as one one speaks to a friend”, yet Israel rebelled against God. 2000 years ( or so) ago, when the Messiah came, Israel (for the most part) didn’t even recognize him. Three major denominations were in place — the Herodians, Sadducee, and Pharisee . (The Sadducee say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.) Acts 23:8. Now, we have so many different denominations all preaching to their base and in return the base gets encouragement from each other– that their version is correct. Not only in Religion but politics as well given the rise of Trump with fake news and Fox (but i digress )
Link Hudson
Rico Hero the only reference I can think off to planets in scripture isin Jude in reference. To false btetjten. I cannot evenfind a reference to the earth as a planet in scripture.
Rico Hero
The thinking that Heaven is a planet is based on Rom 1:20. snip Heaven must be a planet because “the invisible things..are clear seen, being understood by the things that are made”
Romans 1:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Since Heaven and Earth were created “in the beginning”. Heaven has country and city,etc. we are without excuse to think otherwise
Manage
Link Hudson
Rico Hero where does the Bible say country or city are round?
Rico Hero
You are not following, Link. Rom 1:20 makes the point that things not seen–like Heaven, can be clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made. Country and city can only exist on a planet. This we clearly see and understand it by the fact country and city exist on earth–a thing that is made.
Rico Hero
what verse in Jude are references planets,Link
Link Hudson
Rico Hero wondering stars. That is where are word for planets come from. Planetary movements were complicated to track preCopernicus.
Varnel Watson
Good discussion showing Heaven may be a planet
Link Hudson
Troy Day please show evidence for that.
Varnel Watson
I already did twice Just look above Thank you!
Varnel Watson
Good point Rico Hero and all from the BIBLE