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| PentecostalTheology.com
John 1:1 reads as follows:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
I’m wondering about the “πρὸς τὸν Θεόν”, translated as “with god.”
But, I’m more asking about the connotative meaning of the word, or the spectrum of meaning it has, other than “with”. What is the author trying to say about the relation between the λόγος and the Θεὸς?
Varnel Watson
Ricky Grimsley πρὸς τὸν Θεόν”, translated as “with God.” What is the author trying to say about the relation between the λόγος and the Θεὸς?- that Christ was present in the Creation already as Logos – the Eternal God’s Son?
Ricky Grimsley
Obviously the word was present but not as a son. How can their be a father-son relationship from the beginning without jesus being created or subordinate?
Varnel Watson
The comparative clause in the Greek of John 1:14 says otherwise. The incarnate Word only reflected the glory of God’s Son who must have pre-existed before the word became flesh in order for the word to reflect His Glory and not the other way around or even simultaneously.
You cant spell neither Reason nor Season without the SON – now preach that in your message tomorrow if you dare …
Ricky Grimsley
How can jesus be the son in eternity past?
Ricky Grimsley
How can you be a son without birth or creation?
Varnel Watson
Paul explains in Hebrews 7:3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.
Ricky Grimsley
So you believe the priest of salem was jesus?
Daniel Blaylock
The writer of Hebrews believes at the minimum that Melchizedek was a type or foreshadowing of Jesus.
Varnel Watson
Apostle Paul believed Jesus is “without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, – – – the Son of God, he remains a priest forever” according to Hebrews 7:3
Ricky Grimsley
Well by definition the type and what it represents are two separate things.
Varnel Watson
Yet Paul is talking about Christ here not so much a type
Daniel Blaylock
“Pros” comes from “prosepon”–face! The Word was “face-to-face” with God. The early church fathers taught that since “time” was a created construct, God (Father, Son, and Spirit) existed outside of time in eternity. The Son is begotten of the Father, but not in a time-bound sense; rather He is eternally begotten (the doctrine of eternal generation). John 1:18 goes on to call Jesus the “only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father” (NASB).
His begotenness does not describe a moment in time, but an eternal relationship that distinguishes Father from Son (just as “procession” distinguishes the Spirit–He “proceeds” from the Father (and Son). According to the church fathers (from even before the time of Councils of Nicea/Chalcedon), this has been the Church’s position–three distinct, eternal persons (hypostases) who are of the same substance (ousia).
So the Church Fathers decided against both the Subordinationism of Arius (what Jehovah’s Witnesses teach about Jesus) and the Modalism of Sabellius (which Oneness Pentecostals teach) in favor of a Trinitarian formulation–one God eternally existing in three persons, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Varnel Watson
True Orthodoxy lies in the affirmation that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are eternally inseparably together. God is eternally Father, eternally Son, and eternally Holy Spirit. “The Father beget His son without days or hours; and when He beget Him, His Father was not separated from Him.” Beyond time, God is the eternal One. That One is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. No one of the three Persons is prior to the other two in time. “The One was not before the Other”, says the Anaphora, “and the Second was not before the Third.”
Ricky Grimsley
Who cares about orthodoxy. What about what is actually true.
Varnel Watson
Well the Church fathers did and they for a good reason formulated the proclamation of the Nicene Council in the following way: . . . and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages: Light of Light. True God of True God. Begotten not made. Of one essence with the Father. Through whom all things were made . . .
Daniel Blaylock
Ortho = right; doxy = glory/worship–to worship rightly requires we believe the truth about God. Orthodoxy IS caring about what is true. That’s why the Church Fathers such as Athanasius and the Cappadocians such as Gregory of Nyssa studied the Scriptures and debated the issues so deeply. They understood that believing rightly about Jesus was a salvation issue!
Varnel Watson
Church fathers theological stand was “one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages: Light of Light. True God of True God. Begotten not made. Of one essence with the Father. Through whom all things were made .” HOW were all things made through the Son if the Son is not Son from and through all eternity?
Ricky Grimsley
We wasnt a son in the beginning. Its just a platonic attribute added to God so we can say “he didnt change in any way.
Varnel Watson
Consider this Ricky Grimsley John 1:1-2 prologue in original Greek reads: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Who is He with God in the beginning in your opinion?
New International Version
He was with God in the beginning.
New Living Translation
He existed in the beginning with God.
English Standard Version
He was in the beginning with God.
Berean Study Bible
He was with God in the beginning.
Berean Literal Bible
He was in the beginning with God.
New American Standard Bible
He was in the beginning with God.
King James Bible
The same was in the beginning with God.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
He was with God in the beginning.
International Standard Version
He existed in the beginning with God.
NET Bible
The Word was with God in the beginning.
New Heart English Bible
He was in the beginning with God.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
This One himself was at the origin with God.
GOD’S WORD® Translation
He was already with God in the beginning.
New American Standard 1977
He was in the beginning with God.
Jubilee Bible 2000
The same was in the beginning with the God.
King James 2000 Bible
The same was in the beginning with God.
American King James Version
The same was in the beginning with God.
American Standard Version
The same was in the beginning with God.
Douay-Rheims Bible
The same was in the beginning with God.
Darby Bible Translation
He was in the beginning with God.
English Revised Version
The same was in the beginning with God.
Webster’s Bible Translation
The same was in the beginning with God.
Weymouth New Testament
He was in the beginning with God.
World English Bible
The same was in the beginning with God.
Young’s Literal Translation
this one was in the beginning with God;
Daniel Blaylock
The misunderstanding comes when we try to read OUR understanding of Father-Son back into the Godhead. Our time-bound father/son relationships that have a definite beginning point are derived from the original Father/Son relationship which has existed within the Holy Trinity for all eternity. (Much like people reject God as Father because their earthly fathers were poor reflections of true Fatherhood.)
Ricky Grimsley
The Word