Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars
Click to get our FREE MOBILE APP and stay connected
| PentecostalTheology.com
What is Gods purpose for the rapture of the saints before the tribulation?
Dan Irving
You mean, hypothetically?
Terry Wiles
To drain the swamp! 🙂
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Lol
Benjamin C Bratvogel
Ummm sorry to say but the rapture idea is false and a trick of the devil. It os ment to discourage Christians once the anti- christ comes and we are all still here. The only inclination of “rapture” or the joining of Jesus in the twinkling of an “eye”….as in 1Cor 15:52 ..this speaks of Christians who are alive..AT THE SOUND OF THE LAST TRUMPET…now this either means the 7th trumpet in Rev. 12:15…or the last trumpet when is unknown. The 7th trumpet is whrn Christ establishes His reign on earth. This is when heaven is opened and the Ark revealed. This is when every knee shall bow and tongue confess this is when all pf Christ enemies become SUBJUGATE TO HIS AUTHORITY…But revelation is not nessacarly in a specefic order…V12:18 is speaking of the actions in Chapter 20 at the end when we are judged and death is defeated. …either way the rapture will happen after the 2 witnesses or after satans defeat…not at the very begaining and the opening of the first seal…all the seals are opened and trumpets blown..thats still a lot of destruction and death…
Secondly the anti Christ will behead Christians who will serve with Christ in the 1000 year reign…how can they be beheaded if “the rapture took all Christians away…? They cant the rapture is false…and eithers happens in the middle 3 and half years or at the end…do not be deceived by the tares planted with thw wheat…
Varnel Watson
Look here this new theology Ricky Grimsley The devil wants to trick you to go to heaven How come you never thought of that argument now 🙂
Benjamin C Bratvogel
The Devil is not tricking you too go to Heaven there is no begining rapture this is false and will lead too apostasy once the anti Christ comes.And no one is raptured at the begining, many will turn away from faith.i have already validated my claim.
Varnel Watson
Well it seems to be according to what you wrote “the rapture idea is false and a trick of the devil.”
Ricky Grimsley
Its not our fault you totally disregard 2 Thessalonians chapter2 and 1 Thessalonians 5. Not to mention how. Mark 13 luke 21 and matthew 24 and revelation have a similar timeline with a rapture clearly towards the end. Its ok Troy Day i will tell you what to do when the time comes. I will probably say i told you so though.
Varnel Watson
Yeah, 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 does not really say what you want it to say #sorry Stay rapture ready or you shall miss it with many others
Ricky Grimsley
Its plain english.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
First when Paul wrote to the Thessalonians about the end time he was just writing to another church about the blessed hope as he did to the Corinthians.
Once all scripture is taken into account there is only one conclusion to arrive at. Like John 5 :28, the parable of the wheat and tares, daniel 9:27 Christ being the only covenant maker
Lastly the church for eighteen hundred years believed Christ would return as the last day. Plus Matthew 24 was fulfilled in 70 A.D at the destruction of Jerusalem
Ricky Grimsley
Part of luke 21 is about 70 ad but not matthew.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Christ was prophesying to the Jews of His day because of their rejection of Him. There is no way it’s not, there are things that he said that absolutely had to happen in THAT generation
Varnel Watson
Hey now whats wrong with the devil trick you to go in the rapture? If a kingdom has divided against itself…
Ricky Grimsley
Read luke 21 and matthew 24 again. Focus on this. Luke 21:12 KJVS
[12] But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you , delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.
Vincent Christina Young
The rapture will happen soon and will happen
Vincent Christina Young
People, get ready the world is about to change. just remember Jesus and focus on him because if you dont God says you will burn to ash
Benjamin C Bratvogel
None of you, at all ,have disputed my word based theory and truely are just not understanding. OK !!!NOW…IF ALL OF YOU BELEAVE IN THE Bible and the RAPTURE AND THE END BEGAINS TOMMOROW, yet you GO THROUGH ALL THOSE TORMMENTS AND TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS, because you were not raptured… Some of you will turn away from faith, some of you will follow the anti Christ, some of us “Christians” will turn to apostasy. Jesus Christ tells us thisin 2Thes2 :9-12. That is how Satan is tricking you with this absurd idea…none of you have disputed this intelligently. Grover is the only one with any sense…and possibly Ricky lol…and yes beware of the wheat and tares …the false prophets, false doctrines, false preachers and ideas. That are not Biblical doctrine, and just made up by man and his interpretation, those who are in the Church influenced by Satan. Like Johova Witnesses and Mormans or pedophile priest.
But there is also 3 parts to Danial and Matthew 25 but this is not the place…but your are right Grover the 70 Ad.destruction Was one part of the prophecy and was fulfilled…and told by Daniel and Christ. God Bless All…pray more and study more…love more.
Benjamin C Bratvogel
Also go back and read my original message and look up all the verses…Troy Day.
Varnel Watson
I got a good verse for yall to look up this morning According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:15
Dan Irving
Do you take that for the Pre-Trib Rapture, or His Parousia?
Varnel Watson
Does He touch earth during His Parousia?
Dan Irving
He not only touches it, He consumes it.
Varnel Watson
Right, right 1 Thessalonians 4 says He only comes in the clouds where the church meets Him, so there you have it sound and clear Theology of the Rapture…
Dan Irving
Read on, Troy Day, the letter was not divided into chapters in Paul’s day. Several verses later, he writes, that day will come with “DESTRUCTION.” (I Thess 5:3)
Varnel Watson
No chapter division is needed to understand the essence of pre-trib rapture in the theology of Paul. Add the greek words used and it’s pretty clear
Dan Irving
Are you saying that Paul jumps-topic in his second breath? (For that’s what you must conclude to assert I Thess 4 alludes to a Pre-Trib “Rapture.)
Grover Katzmarek Sr
I guess what disturbs me the most about the pre-trib crowd is that the church didn’t believe this baloney about what is believed today, is wasn’t taught or preached until Sir Robert Anderson misinterpreted Daniel 9:27
Then of course John Darby and C. I. Schofield took this heresy and ran with it.
Varnel Watson
This claim is simply false. There’s a multitude of early church sermons on pre-trib Rapture as well two undeniable documents by Ephraim of Syria and Clement of Rome; they are well circulated and could be easily found and read in their original to avoid any loss in interpretation. Scofield followed a well established doctrine and simply popularized it. Darby had little to do with the original verbalizing of the pre-Trin rapture doctrine as it was already well established. Of course, many a-mil calvinists prefer to blame it on Darby and some imaginary 1800 “discovery” of the rapture whereas at that time pre-rapture doctrine had been well established for centuries…
Varnel Watson
I think Paul is quite clear on what he is saying and needs no conclusions, assertions or allusions. He says it plainly: will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air Are you saying this is the same as the Parousia in which the Lord consumes the earth as you stated above?
Dan Irving
Yes, we will meet Him at His Parousia; not sooner. The Lord’s coming is the consummation of this age.
Dan Irving
We know Him now, by His Spirit. We will know Him then, face to face.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
I saying plainly what the church believed that Christ when he returns will be for the general resurrection and judgment.
Once I heard a preacher preaching I believe it was out of I Thessalonians about the temple being rebuilt. There is nothing there it will never be rebuilt. We are the temple Paul plainly taught this.
Varnel Watson
Check your claim on temple rebuilding. There’s a Jewish websites which actually tells you the exact status of the current temple building 🙂
Varnel Watson
Dan Irving How do you justify your statement “meet Him at His Parousia; not sooner” with your other statement that the Parousia equates destruction of earth? While 1 Thess 4 clearly speaks of meeting in the air; furthermore the Bible describes the Parousia as return WITH the Saints and not FOR the saints?
Vincent Christina Young
Dose anyone know where it talks about in Revelations o where the Angels Go on the four corners of the earth and blow trumpet
Grover Katzmarek Sr
I’m drooping out if this discussion today for personal reasons
Two very dear friends of mine I worked for these people about 25 years ago, we are still close friends today, Terri and Pat found their son dead this morning. Second child they have lost to drugs. Choices the parents have made, boy generation cheeses. Please lift these two up to the Lord and me that I may be able to minister to these two lost souls.
Maybe this is why I went through what I did this year with my son and his cancer.
God bless you all
Street Preacherz
Yes praying brother. Wisdom grace peace comfort strength. A word in season for him that is weary…
Dan Irving
Troy Day, I’m not sure where you are seeing inconsistency. Scripture clearly teaches the elect shall have a presence in the earth at His coming. When that occurs, they shall be called up to escape the wrath that will then occur. Where is a contradiction in your mind?
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Not cheeses but curses
Street Preacherz
Jesus breaks every curse.
Dan Irving
Grover Katzmarek Sr My heart goes out. That happened to my brother last year, with his son. They’re in for a very difficult time.
Ricky Grimsley
Its amazing how people can read the bible and miss things so simple.
Vincent Christina Young
I agree
Scotty Searan
I do not believe in a pre trib rapture, but I do believe in a prewrath rapture, which I believe will happen around the opening of the 6th seal.
I believe that if there is such a thing as a secret rapture, that Jesus would have told his disciples more plainly and the scriptures that we read would not keep being twisted and wrestled to people’s destruction.
I do hope that the Pre-trib is right, but if they are not there will be a lot more falling away from the church if they are right.
But the Pre-trib sounds good hear in America, but can this really hold water in the countries where they are being persecuted?
Wouldn’t it seem they are experiencing part of the wrath of God?
Ricky Grimsley
I agree. I am also pre-wrath.
Rico Hero
Our Lord Jesus was asked about his second advent and the signs that would indicate his return.
He plainly stated before his return would be wars and rumors of wars, that nation would rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom
(He was referring to Daniels Man statue prophecy)
He told all believers to watch and pray they be counted worthy to escape all these things and stand before the Son of Man.
So the only way one can escape these coming wars, the nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom (escape all things ) as Jesus promised and stand before him is by a rapture. If you die during these wars you are not escaping
Now if you look at Revelation, the white horse rider (of the first seal) goes forth conquering , and to conquer,to fulfill Daniels Man statue prophecy.
Therefore, the only way to fulfill Jesus words of escaping these wars as he promised is by pre trib rapture, not pre wrath
Scotty Searan
These wars are not God’s wrath
Vincent Christina Young
Hi Scotty
Rico Hero
You are correct Scotty. These wars are not Gods wrath. They are mans warth–of which we are also promised escape from .
Scotty Searan
Rico Hero So that means we will not be persecuted? Isn’t that man’s wrath? Go tell the Christians in the Muslim countries that and see how they respond. They are suffering man’s wrath.
John 16:1-3King James Version (KJV)
16 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
I guess Jesus missed it, when he spoke about killing the Christians and He didn’t understand man’s wrath?
Vincent Christina Young
None of that matters as long as you believe in Jesus you go to heaven
Vincent Christina Young
Don’t be fooled people. Lucifer works in mysterious ways
Vincent Christina Young
He wants you to fight
Rico Hero
Hi Scotty ,No. Christian persecution will continue. But escape from the wrath of man coming by the Anti-Christ is what Jesus promised. why? He doesn’t say, but He must see it as really terrible for He warn us to watch and pray we may be found worthy to escape it. Seven years after we are raptured, we will return with Christ as part of His army
Vincent Christina Young
Don’t be fooled people. The DEVIL wants your soul
Vincent Christina Young
Just believe in Jesus and fomt worry about all this talk on here just believe in Jesus and you are saved
Scotty Searan
Rico Hero The wrath by the antichrist is no different than people dying for the cause of Christ now. Satan’s wrath will not compare to the wrath that God Pours out.
I can’t see us being delivered from the wrath of Satan. If that is so God has mistreated his disciples and many more millions because they have gave their life for the cause of Christ.
I can see God protecting his people from His wrath. Noah and Lot are perfect examples of God protecting them from His wrath.
Rico Hero
No offense Scotty, but if Jesus said plainly that we “escape” “all these things ” why you doubt His word?
Grover Katzmarek Sr
When I was a very new Christian about 1973-74 I saw in a friend’s Bible this quote which is so true.
“The tradition of the elders are the spectacles of which we view the pages of the Bible ”
In ones belief of pre-trib baloney it totally contradicts Christ teaching in the parable of the wheat and tares.
No where in all the pages of Holy Writ is it taught of some imaginary person being an antichrist. The only one who used that word was the apostle John. Almost all theologians agree that the ninth chapter of daniel is talking about Christ. And then in the last almost two hundred years because of Sir Robert Anderson says verse 27 changes to some other than Christ being the covenant maker. With this mistaken interpretation we are living under a new covenant then
As we shall meet Christ in the air, but as Jude further illuminated as Christ is returning to the earth the resurrection of the saints happen and will shall all return together and thus occurs the final judgment at the end of the age
Varnel Watson
Grover Katzmarek Sr So you basically do not believe in the rapture so you can belief in a brief “hop in the air” Which one is more absurd? Christ returns we hop in the clouds and land back on earth. This is basically the modern-day church hip-hop religious eschatology preached by so many Mickey Mouse preachers out there…
Vincent Christina Young
Troy Day ?
Where Does it say that Christians are wrong in the Holy Bible
Dan Irving
But Troy Day, your system wants to raise us up and hold us bodily in heaven for seven years, waiting another coming, that will raise a second group of the living and a second group of the dead. ?
Varnel Watson
Heaven is real to me!
Dan Irving
I am I incorrect?