Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars
Click to get our FREE MOBILE APP and stay connected
| PentecostalTheology.com
WHAT does the FUTURE hold?
Practical application of Pentecostal theology in politics, economy and social issues
Thiselton On Hermeneutics Collected Works With New Essays
Book Reviews / Pneuma 31 (2009) 105-160 109 Anthony C. Thiselton, Thiselton on Hermeneutics: Collected Works with New Essays (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans…
Varnel Watson
OK Billy Monroe Poff Philip Williams this is straight from HAGEE’s book – does it separate ISRAEL from the church in the future? Does it represent dispensationism? RichardAnna Boyce
RichardAnna Boyce
i speak for Free Grace, not dispensationism; so give me a NT verse about Israel and the Church and i will give a FG commentary. I am wary of prophets today in general; but do like Cindy Jacob’s prophesies about Mindanao Philippines where i live.
RichardAnna Boyce
this would summarise my thoughts:- Are Israel and the Church the same or are they different?
The dispensationalist says that if you read the Bible in its plain, normal sense then you have to come to the conclusion that Israel and the Church are different. In contrast, the Covenant Theologian, because he allows allegorical interpretation, says that the Church and Israel are the same. They say that the church began either with Adam and Eve or with Abraham. I find it interesting that they can’t even decide among themselves when the church began. The Covenant Theologian says that the Church is “the New Israel.”
They maintain that when you read the name “Israel” in the New Testament this term is really referring to the Church.
In Romans 10:1 Paul wrote, “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.” Okay, the Covenant Theologian tells us that Israel = the Church. So according to them, that verse should really read: “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Church is that they may be saved.”
Wait a minute! I thought that the Church was the body of Christ which means that members of the Church are already saved! To make the assumption that Israel and the Church are the same results in all kinds of absurdities!
So if a person applies the principle of plain, normal interpretation to scripture, then they will see a difference between Israel and the Church. It that is true, then they are probably a dispensationalist.
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce free grace as hyper grace or not?
RichardAnna Boyce
no free grace is different to hyper grace but HG is certainly closer to FG than lordship salvation. When FG come across a theologian who is outside the typical Free Grace circles, who may not know all of the issues that we have debated, and who may not be entirely consistent in their thinking, but who seems to be teaching things similar to us about the message of life, we say, “He’s basically with us.” It’s an expression of hope, not of certainty. And I think it applies to Joseph Prince.
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce Alan Smith started this back in the day with some 450+ comments Now OP is up to over 1,000 comments and still not resolve are we going or not before the Trib? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/one-thousand-comments-on-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-the-church/?fbclid=IwAR3rMX-glF86PLM6l7vBYM5_vbH_Y9kCT5xBRaXfHYYRfKhk9e_j7mPWU8s
RichardAnna Boyce
you will all know any day soon, when you are raptured, if you are born again.
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce and Spirit filled?
RichardAnna Boyce
Troy Day Most interesting are these words from Horton:
“Union with Christ is not the result of human decision, striving, seeking, yielding, or surrendering, but of Christ’s. While we are called to be “filled with the Spirit” (Eph 5:18), that is merely a figure of speech: “Do not get drunk on wine . . . Instead, be filled with the Spirit.” In other words, make sure you’re under the right influence! Every believer is Spirit-filled and, therefore, a recipient of every heavenly blessing in Christ (Eph 1:3-4).” Christ the Lord: The Reformation and Lordship Salvation, edited by Michael Horton (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1992).
RichardAnna Boyce
Troy Day Ephesians 1:3 God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing. Often when people think of blessings, they think of material things such as money and possessions. This passage does not deal with earthly temporal blessings, but with heavenly eternal blessings believers now have in Christ. Paul lists six things that believers have because of their union in Christ. These blessings are in the heavenly places because they are from our heavenly Father and because of one’s position in Christ. By faith in Jesus Christ believers are placed in union with Christ and in Christ are raised up and seated at the right hand of the Father (Eph 1:20). Repeatedly this passage affirms that God gives His blessings to believers because of their union in Christ.
1:13. Now Paul gives us the final blessing from the Father through the Son based on the third member of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. Paul again reminds the Gentile believers in Ephesus that in Him [Christ] you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. The gospel is the message that brings salvation. After hearing the message the Ephesians believed and then instantaneously were sealed by the Holy Spirit. Sealing suggests security (cf. Eph 4:30). The moment one believes in Jesus Christ he is sealed by the Holy Spirit and is thus secure and safe forever. Believers can know that the moment they trust in Christ as their Savior they are sealed by the Holy Spirit and are safe forever. Believers have the assurance of salvation based on Christ’s promises (cf. John 5:24; 6:35; 11:26). Sealing also suggests ownership. The Holy Spirit’s seal reminds believers that they belong to God (Rom 8:16-17).
1:14. The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance. The word guarantee means a pledge or down payment. The Holy Spirit given to believers guarantees their future inheritance. The redemption of the purchased possession will take place when Jesus Christ returns and establishes His righteous kingdom. All believers are His purchased possession since He has bought them. The redemption mentioned in this verse differs from that referred to in v 7. Justification is the focus in v 7, and glorification is in view in v 14. God will complete His plan of redemption when He gives believers glorified bodies and removes all taint of sin from the earth and the universe. As before, the work of God through the Holy Spirit in His sealing of believers is to the praise of His glory.
Philip Williams
RichardAnna Boyce
Paul desires that all Israel be saved. How is that different from desiring that all Christians be saved? Of course we know that Jesus tells us that the way is narrow and few find it. The Christian way today is anything but narrow, not so different from Israel in Paul’s day. There is nothing in Paul’s desire that would distinguish Israel from the Church. Paul definitely understood them as the same.
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce HORTON Rules when it comes to Pentecostalism HOW do you see this new Hagee trend Billy Monroe Poff and Philip Williams have pointed us to in relation to HORTON’s (among others) Pentecostal theological heritage
RichardAnna Boyce
i am a N T Biblicist and dont feel comfortable spiritually with Hagee in his teaching, which is from Daniel, OT; which i admit knowing little about.
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce and I cant figure out his angle on this one just yet Maybe Philip Williams knows
Philip Williams
John Hagee believes that Jews can be saved without Jesus. Why doesn’t every Christian condemn him? Does that no longer matter to Pentecostals? Why give so much attention to this great apostate?
Varnel Watson
Hagee and Jerry Falwell have both denied a report in The Jerusalem Post earlier this week that they embrace the “dual covenant” theology, which holds that Jews are saved through a special relationship with God and therefore need not become Christians to get to heaven. In a statement to the Post, the Texas-based televangelist Hagee said that neither he nor Southern Baptist pastor Falwell “believe or teach dual covenant.” Hagee added that he had “made it a practice for 25 years not to target Jews for conversion” at any “Night to Honor Israel” events. If Jews “inquire about our faith at a later time, we give them a full scriptural presentation of redemption.” He stressed that “regardless of the response from the Jewish person, we remain friends in support of the State of Israel as required by scripture.” Falwell, meanwhile, posted a statement on his Web site to the effect that he believed “all people – Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Jews, Muslims, etc.” – must accept Jesus in order to enter heaven. Falwell highlighted his strong support for the State of Israel and his “love” for the Jewish people – “the chosen people of God.” He went on to “reaffirm that I am a Zionist in terms of Israel’s entitlement to its homeland. I continue to pray daily for the peace of Jerusalem, as the Bible instructs Christians to do. And I have dedicated my life and ministry to working for the peace of Israel.” But he stressed that “I have been on record all 54 years of my ministry as being opposed to dual covenant theology… I simply cannot alter my deeply held belief in the exclusivity of salvation through the Gospel of Christ for the sake of political or theological expediency. Like the Apostle Paul, I pray daily for the salvation of everyone, including the Jewish people.” https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Hagee-Falwell-deny-endorsing-dual-covenant-theology
Philip Williams
What hypocrisy! He has nowhere refuted his best selling book where he clearly denies this. Moreover he works closely with Jesus denying rabbis. He is simply being political in that statement forced upon him by Christians. Otherwise he would acknowledge that he was in great error in what he says in his best selling book. Since he refuses to do this, he can use his book with Jews as giving his true beliefs while they will be understanding why he had to make that political statement.
Anyone satisfied with such a charade do not themselves have any regard for truth. Sad that even Pentecostals regard worldly success as more important than God’s approval.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams which one is his best selling book? Earth’s Last Empire: The Final Game of Thrones?
Philip Williams
Troy Day
‘In Defense of Israel’
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams about what chapter page if you have it?
Philip Williams
Troy Day Chapter 10.
Varnel Watson
I just found it and posted that below
RichardAnna Boyce
Acts 18:4-7 Paul continued his normal practice of beginning in the synagogue, trying to persuade both Jews and Greeks that Jesus was the Christ.
Let us remember that the Greeks mentioned here were gentiles who adopted Judaism as proselytes, recognizing the God of the Jews as the one true God but pursuing a relationship with Him through obeying the Jewish Law.
They were just as unaware of the events of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus as were their Jewish counterparts.
When Timothy and Silas finally catch up with Paul, his spirits are raised and he has a renewed energy for ministering to the Jews and gentiles of the synagogue.
Luke says that “Paul began devoting himself completely to the word.”
Does this mean he ceased his tent-making activities with Aquila? Possibly.
But in any case his more intense message had a predictable effect on the Jews of the synagogue —
they “resisted and blasphemed.”
Paul’s response was strong, clear and final — a response that would be essentially repeated to the Jews of Rome within three verses of the end of the book of Acts. He shook out his garments before them (a Jewish custom tantamount to “washing his hands of them” and breaking fellowship with them), and said,
“From now on I shall go to the Gentiles.”
This is the very essence of Acts, and is the most important lesson modern believers should learn.
As Paul wrote later in several letters,
Israel was being set aside while God ushered in a new era — the unprophesied Age of Grace.
No doubt Paul meant that he would no longer come to the synagogue in Corinth to argue the point.
Instead he would minister among the gentiles who had believed.
To underscore his intentions he left the synagogue and moved his center of operations to the home of a
God-fearing gentile, Titius Justus, right next door to the synagogue.
But in spite of the localized nature of this instance, Paul’s statements to them are prototypical
of a more universal application that comes fully to pass by the end of Acts.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams John Hagee Confirms Christian Zionism Is Anti-Semitic
In Defense of Israel will shake Christian theology as it scripturally proves that the Jewish people as a whole did not reject Jesus as Messiah – Jesus did not come to earth to be the Messiah.
The claim of some supporters, that what “Pastor” Hagee is attempting to say is simply that Jesus was not the Messiah for the Jews alone, or that he was not a Messiah to save the Hebrews from political Rome, is a desperate maneuver to rescue the Texas preacher from the depths of heresy and humiliation. Words have meanings and Mr. Hagee’s are clear
Hagee argues that “the Old Covenant is not dead” (p. 158). In fact, “Scripture plainly indicates that the church (spiritual Israel) and national Israel exist side by side, and neither replaces the other — ever!” (p. 146, emph. his). “Replacement theology advances the concept that the Old Covenant, or Old Testament, has been replaced by the New Testament” (p. 158).
These assertions require us to believe that Jews are saved today without express faith in Christ — in that they are under the God-ordained, continuing old covenant standards. But not even this helps the Jews much since they do not have a temple in order to carry out the requirements of the old covenant!
Philip Williams
Troy Day though this is correct about Hagee, national Israel can be and never had been different from the Israel ruled by Jesus, the King of Israel from the time he called Israel. Had an earthly Israel even existed at the time of Jesus, his disciples would not be asking when he was going to restore Israel. That explains why the Apostles write to the exiles.
RichardAnna Boyce
Philip Williams surely his disciples were asking when would Jesus rule His Kingdom during the Millennium. Because the disciples in Acts 1 were asking about rewards in the coming Kingdom Millennium. And in Jesus last words to them before He ascended, He did not criticise them for asking about rewards; but said it was not for them to know when the Millennium rewards etc would start.
Philip Williams
RichardAnna Boyce
How cynical to view the Apostles in this selfish and worldly way. Don’t project your own evil selfishness on these men who gave their lives for the gospel.
RichardAnna Boyce
Philip Williams Acts 1:6 “Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? (In Matthew Jesus had taught them all about rewards in the coming Kingdom)” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth (where the Jews had been dispersed).”
9 Now when He had spoken these things , while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Philip Williams
RichardAnna Boyce Right, clearly Israel is still in exile and will be so until he returns.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams quite the Zionist thinking I think
Philip Williams
Troy Day
Certainly not the kind of Zionist as is Perry Stone.
God’s Zion is not the piece of real estate where some of my archaeological friends are digging, but is where his truth goes out to the nations, the whole world. So you are right that I am a Zionist.