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| PentecostalTheology.com
As the Church of God’s 23rd General Assembly prepared to adjourn in Cleveland, Tennessee, on Sunday, October 28, 1928, delegates received news they had been dreading, General Overseer F.J. Lee had died. Flavius Josephus Lee had faithfully served in the office since 1923. Stricken with liver cancer, his family encouraged him to resign as general overseer, but Lee confidently replied, “God will take care of me until He is through with me here.” A fervent believer in divine healing, he had insisted there be no medical attention during his illness. Among his many interests, Lee wrote and taught on end-times prophecy. Author of “Lectures on Revelation” and “Book of Prophecy: Questions and Answers on the Entire Book of Revelation,” Lee created prophecy charts including one on a scroll in this portable wooden case from which he taught. The Dixon Pentecostal Research Center is preserving these and other books and artifacts related to the life and ministry of F.J. Lee.
Anonymous
something to consider here per their cog heritage Terry Wiles
Neil Steven Lawrence is a missionary educator teaching the same
Link Hudson says is but is not the OFFICIAL pre-trib cog
Peter Vandever wanted their papers but gave it up
SO WHAT does this change for our cog members?
It proves historically Osvalldo Domingos that cog is a def. pre-trib denomination
what is your take on this one Michael Chauncey Brett Dobbs Brian Longoria
Anonymous
Troy Day COG statement of faith does not require pretib. But it is premil
Anonymous
Link Hudson NOT true in their own opinion Just stating the facts
Anonymous
Troy Day I had a discussion online with COG ministers about it after we discussed it here. I think it’s intentionally vague.
“We believe:
In the premillennial second coming of Jesus. First, to resurrect the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to Him in the air. Second, to reign on the earth a thousand years.
It’s bizarrely worded, but maybe not as bad as the A/G statement.
Anonymous
Link Hudson would you like an actual quote from yalls general overseer instead of some “discussion online with COG ministers” probably on the renegade actsellerate group where most of them are not even cog?
Anonymous
Troy Day it doesn’t matter.
Anonymous
Link Hudson oh but it does; when cog’s top leader and their top theologians are telling they are strongly pre-trib – it does matter. Matters to Neil Steven Lawrence Oscar Valdez Tony Richie Tony Edwards Αγγελος Ρουίζ Ron Culbreth and all others who are cog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN960T7Qq1A
Anonymous
bro. Tommy Smith are you aware of ANY actual church of GOD in the greater Indonesian area that is not in fact strongly pre-trib ?
Anonymous
I went through this argument 45 years ago. Was and is pre-trib.
Anonymous
I’ve never heard anybody in the Church of God emphasize any other view point except pre-tribulation rapture.  That doesn’t mean they’re not there, just that I’ve never heard it any different. 
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence Oscar Valdez I agree with that 100% There may be some new fellers who go with Kingdom-now post-mil post-trib liberation theology and Link Hudson may have wrongly associated them as cog, but as far as I know cog has been pre-trib as stated here without any shadow of a doubt by one of cog’s own fathers of their theology, doctrine, Declaration of Faith and even theological schools https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN960T7Qq1A
Anonymous
SO the TRUTH is Link Hudson cog declaration of faith came about 1948 so they can get accepted into the North American Evangelical Alliance. From 1896 until 1948 they preached nothing but pre-Trib; and long after that of course Are you saying that in 1948 cog changed from pre-trib to post-trib – do you see this posted on some internet video forum you cannot recall right now?
Anonymous
Troy Day No, I’m just saying the statement could be interpreted different ways. It isn’t worded that great for pre-trib either.
Anonymous
Troy Day how did the Baptist pretribs get accepted by the NAE?
Anonymous
Link Hudson you cannot say that within cog when the cog top overseer says it means pre-trib. You are free to make such statements anywhere else, but within cog it has been set for over 100yrs that it means pre-trib and any one interpretation is simply not-cog That’s all …
Anonymous
Philip Williams Billy Graham was a 33rd degree mason
Anonymous
Troy Day that’s a serious charge to be making against an elder in the body of Christ. Document this or withdraw the accusation.
Freemasons don’t preach Jesus as God. Nor do the allow Roman Catholics to become members. Billy Graham worked with Catholics and Pentecostals, but not freemasons.
Anonymous
Philip Williams the Reverend Billy Graham WAS, in fact ‘initiated and raised’ in Genesee Lodge NO. 174, in Flint, Michigan. The evidence is a part of the Genesee Lodge No. 174 – (1997) member list. Not surprised you didnt know that but then again church history 101 is a must…
Anonymous
Troy Day really? Our Billy Graham lived in North Carolina and worshipped Jesus.
Now, freemasonry is a secret organization. There are others with the name Billy Graham. It’s also possible to fabricate such documents. Why would you countenance such charges against someone who was so devoted to Jesus?
Anonymous
https://www.facebook.com/groups/192419050188295/?ref=share_group_link
Anonymous
COG is pretrib and, according to that scroll, has always been pretrib.
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey and anyone who goes to cog is pretrib Link Hudson
Anonymous
Troy Day I know from experience that this is not the case. The Church of God used to think of itself as THE Church of God, and you haven’t presented any evidence that your statement applies to first century Christians.
I’m still waiting for some secret information about the Greek of II Thessalonians 1 that proves pretrib or any other evidence.
Anonymous
Also NOT truer Link Hudson – THE Church of God is another registered denomination that has nothing to do with Church of God (Cleveland, TN) Nevertheless, any member of Church of God (Cleveland, TN) falls under their doctrinal teaching and as a member of Church of God (Cleveland, TN) is required to adhere to pre-trib. Any of their ministers who do not adhere to pre-trib is to have his license revoked as per their Minutes.
Anonymous
Troy Day When did they start requiring everyone to have a ministers license to attend a COG. I know for a fact one doesn’t have to be pre-trib to go to a COG. I heard an a or post-mil individual speak at a COG once in Indonesia. He made a few comments. I used to live in the same boarding house with him, back when he was a pre-tribber. I discussed it with him later.
Was that clip from Cindy Jacobs about Pak Niko and the third Pentecost at a GBI meeting? Is she a pre-tribber?
Be that as it may, the wording of the statement of faith is a bit flexible and can be interpreted different ways. I know of a COG pastor (know via the Internet) if he’s still COG, who expressed some post-trib views.) Have you heard of anyone having their license revoked over that?
Now the A/G recently revoked the license of someone who published amil ideas.
I’m not talking about registered trademarks. The COG used to think of itself as the true church…. maybe they were expecting other Christians to join or thought of the denomination as a manifestation of the true church. I think that idea stuck around longer with the COGOP after Tomlinson left.
Anonymous
Link Hudson You are entitled to your opinion of course but this does NOT make your opinion the official cog teaching. Their overseer has stated cog is preTrib; their minutes have stated the same pako Niko stated pre-trib GBI Indonesia AND what was most concerning to me their theologians have stated pre-trib as well – we just finished SPS where many cog and other Pentecostals presented pre-trib papers With all this in mind any other statement contrary to their teachings, minutes, leaders, theologians and ministers is simply untrue and slander of the cog denomination https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN960T7Qq1A
Anonymous
slander? your the one saying the denomination is pretrib?
I’ll pray for the denomination. Otherwise, what else can we do?
Anonymous
Troy Day There is a lot of good stuff in the first part of the video, and throughout it. I appreciate his sharing it. But the idea that the difficulties will not happen while believers are here does not fit the passages about the saints. Clearly, they are believers. They overcame the Devil. Jesus spoke of overcoming in letters to the messengers of various churches, Jesus spoke of ‘he that overcometh….’
If the ascension is our model for understanding the second coming, the passage does not say that Christ went into the clouds, came back down to the earth for seven years, then ascended again.
He offers Luke 21:36 as evidence for pre-trib. “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”?
A form of ekphuegw shows up in Acts 16:27 also, but the jailer is afraid the prisoners have escaped the prison. He isn’t afraid they never went through imprisonment and were never there.
The pre-trib parts of the video seem to me to be ‘begging the question.’ If there were some reason from scripture to consider that Jesus might come back more than one more time before the millennium or that His coming lasted seven years, or that there was another coming of the Lord and rapture before the second coming, then it might make sense to consider his arguments. But considering the lack of scripture to support such ideas, the evidence he presents for a pre-trib rapture is not very convincing. Since the parousia is treated as if it was one event, why not go with straightforward interpretations that answer the issues he raises that do not require Christ coming back an additional time?
In discussing the first resurrection, he points out a question to address is whether it occurs before the tribulation. But in the revelation 20 account, those who did not accept the mark of the beast who were beheaded were resurrected in the first resurrection. Are the tribulational saints supposed to travel back in time to make the pre-trib rapture? This part of his talk does not make much sense, IMO, with a conventional literal pretrib understanding of the mark of the beast, etc.
Anonymous
Link Hudson yes, a claim that is untrue and purposes to portrait wrongly; I am not the one saying that cog is pretrib – the general overseer of cog is saying they are pre-trib along with all cog ministers in our group Neil Steven Lawrence Jim Price Tony Edwards Tony Richie Ron Culbreth and many more BTW Link the professor on the video is NOT the gen. overseer You should be familiar with your denomination leadership
Anonymous
Troy Day you are making strawman arguments.
Anonymous
Troy Day I did not make any claims about my opinions vis a vis official opinions of the COG (Clevaland) denomination, so this looks like straw man arguments to me.
The following wording seems to fit post-mil as well as pre-mil.
Anonymous
Troy Day I did not make any claims about my opinions vis a vis official opinions of the COG (Clevaland) denomination, so this looks like straw man arguments to me.
The following wording seems to fit post-mil as well as pre-mil.
“In the premillennial second coming of Jesus. First, to resurrect the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to Him in the air. Second, to reign on the earth a thousand years.”
I’d imagine few if any pre-tribbers consider the rapture to be the second coming. This is one second coming referenced here, not one or two comings, so how do we interpret ‘first’ and ‘second.’ The priority of things that happen at the second coming? I suspect changes to wording over time were hammered out in committee meetings, and it may be they were influenced by those who might want to leave a little room for other premil views.
The wording of this doesn’t require that sanctification has to happen in one moment subsequent to the new birth:
“In sanctification subsequent to the new birth, through faith in the blood of Christ; through the Word, and by the Holy Ghost.”
But a theme of our conversations throughout the years is this…. so what? You point out how ‘Pentecostal’ a viewpoint of yours is, and I point out that what is important is what God has revealed and what the Bible teaches. You have been asked for years to present some Biblical evidence that the rapture is pretrib, and you have presented ‘come up hither.’ Didn’t a video you just recently posted disagree with that? You have mentioned something about the Greek of II Thessalonians 1 that is supposed to prove pre-trib, but I’ve mentioned it to you several times and you won’t share that.
If it is important for believers to believe in a pretribulational rapture, why isn’t it taught in the holy scriptures?
Anonymous
Link Hudson NO strawman arguments. I brought no less than 5 serious and authentic cog sources – their theologians, ministers, minutes and gen. overseer and pako Niko chief leader of the church you claim to be from AND many more that they in cog in fact are and have been pre-trib. No question about it! If you have something to say about these proofs you can reach straight to their authors for clarification AS well as dozen of SPS scholars who presented pre-trib papers just last week…
The strawman arguments mentioned so far are some ministers on the internet you supposedly asked and they supposedly told you supposedly you dont remember where ; OR someone mentioned something about the Greek OR you saw a video onceuponatime but you dont remember when, where and what it actually said and you dont have a link – then you go to argue if there was one such video you saw or did not saw, or that there was a discussion you read or ministers you ask but you never show actual proof. Those allusive humanistic logics of yours are no theology of course but everyone is free to express them HOWEVER bringing a false claim on a denomination is a serious accusation you should be better prepared to answer NOW then as to this OP are you saying Lemons did not preach pre-trib and cog was not pretrib when he preached it? How was he allowed it to preach it if they were not pretrib? From cog history and polity 101, we know this was much before they were forced to agree on a DoF which many did not agree on just to get into the NAEA – historically cog has been against man made creeds as one of their foundational statements when they were established – as cog you know this right?
Anonymous
Troy Day Again, the strawman. You wrote, “I brought no less than 5 serious and authentic cog sources – their theologians, ministers, minutes and gen. overseer and pako Niko chief leader of the church you claim to be from AND many more that they in cog in fact are and have been pre-trib.”
My answer to this is ‘so what?’ Also, I’m not saying any of these people are anything other than pre-trib. None of this is any kind of Biblical evidence for the pretrib rapture scenario.
I realize most people in the COG (who have a position on eschatology) are pre-trib, that this is endemic throughout the denomination. You are acting like I am arguing for something that I am not.
My point was that the wording of the statement could be interpreted to include post-trib, whether that was intentional or not, and it is poorly worded for a pre-trib statement, since it would be odd to call the pretrib rapture scenario the second coming. If you want to address that, we have to discuss the wording of the statement, not the pervasive views within the COG.
I don’t claim to be from GBI Bethany. I went to their English service in the group Pak Niko was in charge of, wasn’t that excited about some aspects of style and certainly not the slight WOF emphasis of some of the guest speakers, but continued to go mainly because of relationships developed when some people prayed for me when I had a health issue…. and it was in English. I went for maybe a little over a year, and I’ve been to another GBI for over a year, after growing up Pentecostal and spending several years in the A/G and several years in an independent Full Gospel church.
And the COG congregations don’t examine people at the door with a brain scanner to see if they are pretrib to see if they will let them attend. Pentecostal pastors vary on how staunchly they are entrenched in a specific end times scenario.
The question I have about you is if you can’t really defend pre-trib coherently from scripture… or don’t with all the degrees in theology…. yet are so outspokenly pretrib, why hold to the position at all? I could see how someone who is A/G would have a lot emotional attachment to it, especially since the wording of their statement is sadly so specific about pre-trib, and if someone had years invested in ministry in the A/G, I could see how emotionally one might want to defend the position. If one had picked up the idea that non-pretribbers are almost heretics (just thinking of all the Christians before 1820 except for pseudo Ephraim)
But if all you got is ‘come up hither’ and the logical fallacies of appeal to power and ad hominem (hinting you are right because of theology degrees or saying I haven’t studied Greek as much as you, etc.) without any solid Biblical basis for it, it still doesn’t make sense to me. And there is supposedly something in the Greek in II Thessalonians 1 that proves pre-trib, but you never would actually post it. So it seems like you try to buffalo people into agreeing with you with the logical fallacy of an appeal to power rather than with coherent arguments from the Greek.
Your other lines of argument is to link to lengthy videos.. For example someone like Perry Stone tries to wrap II Thessalonians 2 around the pre-trib position without giving any Biblical evidence for pre-trib in the first place. Or there is the ridiculous Dake argument that ‘After these things’ means ‘after the churches’ of chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation, when the exact same wording is used elsewhere idiomatically in Greek, and does not refer grammatically back to a previous word in the sentence.
Anonymous
Link Hudson ‘so what?’ – well it is simple
Literally everyone cog is pre-trib
contrary to your initial claim here
that’s all and that’s what
Anonymous
Troy Day not true. Not everyone. I can think of one or two who aren’t, and a third who seems more pan mil. But I won’t out them. 🙂
Anonymous
My apologies bro. Link we are already in church on Sunday morning around 10:30 and I am not in the habit of entertaining social media during service. Noted before you post a lot during church. Not sure if you go to church anywhere or not on Sundays, but for us that minister it is highly disruptive to receive messages during service especially when preaching. A friend of mine who is also a pastor claims that the devil makes people send him stuff on the phone while he is preaching. If you try it with him he will openly state that Link Hudson is of the devil 🙂 Robert Cox may know more about this practice from some members…
Anonymous
rapture.
Churchdoms most useless idea.
if yer good enough to be raptured, yer not gonna miss it.
iF yer not good enough to be raptured, doesnt matter what ya thought about it.
of there is no rapture…………
i wouldnt worry about pre, mid, end, just so long as it happens to you, which, it wont.
Anonymous
yes Link Hudson everyone I talk to in cog is pre-trib – their overseer bishop, their theology doctors like Tony Richie , their preachers like Ron Culbreth their missionaries like Neil Steven Lawrence even their seniors like Jim Price Even Peter Vandever who was not cog but wanted to be is pre-trib The ppl you talk to must not be cog or you go to some other cog not cleveland, TN
Anonymous
Troy Day I’d imagine the vast majority of people in the denomination are post-trib, if they have a specific eschatology. Nowadays there are churches bringing in people from lots of backgrounds, churches that don’t look traditionally Pentecostal, not just in COG but other Pentecostal churches. I see adherence to pre-trib as a shortcoming of a lot of Pentecostal denominations and churches, along with a fuzzy presentation of the gospel in a lot of places, replacing the gospel with speech a relationship and religion and a gospel-less prayer repetition ritual, and over-emphasis on speaking in tongues. For me, being traditionally Pentecostal isn’t the standard to go by, but rather the word of God.
As far as having to be pre-trib to go to a COG, that’s clearly not true. I’ve never heard of a Pentecostal church stopping people at the door and barring the non-pre-tribbers from entry. A lot of Pentecostal churches don’t require people to agree to the doctrinal statement of the denomination to join.
Anonymous
Link Hudson What denomination are you imagining ?
Anonymous
The Rapture loses its purpose if it’s not pre-TRIB! 
Anonymous
Link Hudson said by one true cog missionary Neil Steven Lawrence
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence there are different purposes– the purposes of God and then the purposes of pretribbers to fit their theory and desire to avoid tribulation.
Anonymous
the purposes of God is His desire for the Church to escape Tribulation BUT there are many that shall be left behind – apostacy church needs members too
Anonymous
SORRY Kyle Williams didnt mean to messup you thread where you said dispensationalism is erroneous? Oscar Valdez There are genuine manifestations of spiritual gifts. The Bible teaches that they are given as the Spirit wills. I suspect not believing the scriptures on this issue is part of the reason behind your doctrinal stance. https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/irwin-and-the-clear-non-dispensational-pentecostal-eschatology/
Anonymous
yap Link Hudson Neil Steven Lawrence Dale M. Coulter
Anonymous
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