Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars
Click to get our FREE MOBILE APP and stay connected
Charles Page | PentecostalTheology.com
Were the originators of the Church of God declaration of faith defenders of original sin: that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God? Original sin is an essential tenet of Wesleyanism.
What are your thoughts?
Dollas Messer
I believe so Charles.
Charles Page
can we be Wesleyan and deny original sin?
David Lewayne Porter
I believe the defender of original sin was God, as written by Paul “Romans 5:12, Romans 3:23”.
This one comes to mind as well “the Fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children’s teeth are set on edge”.
Dollas Messer
Maybe so Charles, but would Wesley receive them? He was pretty tight with who could join his “Methodist Clubs.”
Dollas Messer
Here’s an idea, Charles.What about referring to the Wesleyans who do believe in original sin as classical (old school) and those who don’t as modern (new school) Wesleyans?
Dollas Messer
Why not? We have classical and modern Clavinists and classical and neo-Pentecostals.
Dollas Messer
Would Wesley entertain the idea of a Wesleyan Penetecostal? Or would Calvin be a Calvinist Pentecostal?
Odette Del Rio
We can discuss many things… that are a distraction to what our faith is all about. I don’t think that heaven has separations for every denomination created by the minds of men. Our faith grows by hearing His word preached, by reading & meditating on it & believing it is God’s word.
Jim Price
For the sake of discussion let us say this about original sin. Keep in mind that Adam and Eve were both young, did not have any education and had never had any exposure to the larger world, Eve was persuaded to try something before it;s time ( that is at some time she would have been able to taste of knowledge and to know good and evil ) and now according to what we have been taught she wanted to experience something to early in life ( a common sin among the young ) and for that she is punished, Adam is punished, the snake is punished, the earth is punished and all of mankind is punished even before they are born. Many Jewish scholars think this punishment is so out of line for a first time offender that there must be something wrong with the way the story was told. We have come to know God as being fair in judgement and even showing mercy and extending grace. So the extreme punishment for Eve’s sin seems out of character. ” For with what judgement we judge, we are judged.”
Charles Page
Jim, extremely ludicrous…more like wishful thinking
Charles Page
lol Adam and Eve were not young but fully developed with the best of education and world view. Eve’s sin carries with it an excuse, she was deceived however Adam’s was willfully committed.
Adam’s sin was not a common sin among the young. Adam’s sin was a capital sin under the law of God and calls for death.
Jim Price
Me thinks you read to much into the text. The best of education? God didn’t spend much time with them, there was no one else to teach them. World view? They had never been out of the garden, didn’t even know the rest of the world existed, had never worn clothes, never heard music or attended a church service, to turn them out into the harsh world without tools or seeds, it’s a wonder they survived.
Charles Page
Didn’t they know #120 in the Red Back Hymnal?
Charles Page
Jim, I gather you deny the doctrine of original sin, correct.
Jim Price
Oh I don’t doubt that Eve and then Adam sinned and missed the mark, just as many moderns sin ( drinking and driving ) and it leads to their death but not always. Where the KJ says ; ” in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”, in the Hebrew it reads “thou shalt be touched by death a very different reading. Obviously Adam and Eve did not die on that day but lived a long life. So there is some problem with the manuscripts ( there being no originals ) what I am saying is that this relatively mild sin ( not a capital sin ) was punished and we are still being punished all these six thousand years later. Yet I don’t feel that I am being punished for Adams sin since I have been covered by the blood of the Lamb.
Charles Page
Jim, do you consider yourself theologically defined by the CoG declaration of faith?
Pat Fretwell
Adam & Eve lived in a perfect world. There was no sin outside of the garden. So comparing to young now is apples to oranges. First man, first woman, plan of redemption set forth with sin entering the world. I believe the Bible literally means what it said.
Jim Price
Not a perfect world, not if there was something there that could cause death, not if there was a snake that could talk!
John Earp
While Wesley and Wesleyanism have historically affirmed Augustine’s Original Sin doctrine, neither the CoG Declaration of Faith nor its Doctrinal Commitments say a single word concerning Augustine’s concept of Original Sin. I have for several years now believed that JB Mitchell’s influence on AJ Tomlinson regarding the Oberlin Theology of Finney and Mahan had an effect on the formation of official CoG doctrine. Several years ago (around 2000, if I recall correctly) the CoG Evangel included an excellent historical article in which Wesley and Finney were recognized as the primary theological influences of the CoG. I would definitely like to research it more.