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TRUE or FALSE: Pentecostals still hold premillennial eschatology?
Varnel Watson
I would have to strongly agree Gary Micheal Epping
Larry Ray Talley
True
Varnel Watson
True indeed and thank GOD
Gary Micheal Epping
agree.
Varnel Watson
still true and SO true and Thank GOD
indeed no other way around it in eschatology
Tony Foulks
Absolutely
Mike Forfar
Jesus returns before the 1000 yrs is the truth
Varnel Watson
Mike Forfar will you pls tell Thys Marais Nelson Darby learned his system of Dispensationalism, rather, a futurist reading of the book of Revelation, from Irving’s translation of the Chilean Jesuit Lacunza’s book from Spanish to English.
The Jesuit Francisco Ribera invented futurist prophecy to shield the Pope from accusations that he was the antiChrist. Ironically, the Cambridge mathematician Joseph Mede developed historical premillennialism to counter Ribera and the late sixteenth century
The Historical Premillennial view objects to pre-tribulation rapture because they do not do not see a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church–as seen in Dispensational Premillennialism. Therefore, Historical Premmillenialsm do not beleive the “he” in 2 Thess 2:7 is the church.
THE Darby Lacunza connection is pretty well known We have actually discussed it here somewhat – paul riviera too borrowed from Lacunza I have the detail transference of pre-Trib doctrine within the USA and in fact it was NOT via Scofiled or Darby but via the Catholic church of Latin America Scofield did nothing more than popularizing a teaching that has been already prominent in non-reformed evangelical churches like many baptists at the time
Lacunza borrowed much from Fiore with his 3 eras of Father, Son and HS – Darby however did translate the BIBLE from original languages in French and English There is a small and not well known but very important book with his translators notes where he explains the actual BIBLE and then theology truth of his rapture findings during his double BIBLE translation I’ve tried to relate SOME of this to Link at times but it has proven to be a lost cause without basic understanding of at least Greek
Samuel Tregelles also adopted Newton’s position against Darby and posited the view that the source of Darby’s ‘secret rapture’ theory was in fact a prophetic utterance given by one of Edward Irving’s congregation.
I also own after much search Larkin’s original 1919 first print of his Revelation commentary It is VERY expensive and I know of only a few private owners who still have it
BUT Larkin is NOT the earlier source I was speaking of I was speaking about Knox Fox Newton Clarke Finney George Mueller Treanch Keil Alford Ellicott and many others who before Larkin all the way to Euphem of Syria and Clement of Rome who claimed the CHURCH is taken BEFORE the rapture as most church fathers believed back then
Then as per splitting history med. monk Joachim Fiore first split it in 3 ages There is so many one cannot count here
Thys Marais
Troy Day bla bla bla! All what men said! Read the bible man! I never heard of some of the men you mentioned! I am my own man! I may nit be right in everything, but did my own studies of the Word! Read a 1000 books! So many books, so many opinions! At the end, I will stand before God! I am still saved! And I believe the Holy Spirit guide me! You seem to study men interpetation of the bible, more then you study the bible!
Get into the Word! Form your opinion on HS insight! Thanks!
Jessica Buchanan
Troy Day Hi Troy, I have a question on your post.
In historical premillennialism, do they believe the “he” in 2 Thes is Michael? Thank you ?
Varnel Watson
Thys Marais thats ALL you got My friend you asked for it Pls let me know when youve had enough church history lessons for a day 🙂 Many modern day theologians posit that the beginning of the teaching of the
Rapture, as a belief within the traditional orthodox Church, did not occur until around the
year 1830 Even most of them admit that the Church Fathers were
premillennialists (believing in a literal interpretation of the Book of Revelation,6 with its
view of a Tribulation, an Antichrist, and Jesus establishing an earthly kingdom for a
thousand years, Millennium, from the Latin words milus, meaning thousand and annum,
meaning years, after His Second Coming).
The Greek word episunagoge is mentioned as the eschatological gathering of the
faithful to Christ by: Dionysius Alexandrinus (d. 264) in Eusebius’ historia
ecclessiasticae.7.24.5, Eusebius (d. 399), himself, in his demonstratio evangelica.2.3, and
Cyrillus Alexandrinus (d. 444) in his commentarius in John.3.4.
20 Metatithemi (to
translate persons) is used to address rapture by: Clement of Rome (1st cent.), to describe
Enoch’s rapture in his First Epistle to the Corinthians.9.3; Irenaeus (d. 202), who says,
“Enoch was translated, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just and
that those who were translated into Paradise, as a prelude to immortality will remain there
until the completion of the age,” in his Against Heresies.5.5.1; Methodius (d. 311) in his
de resurrectione mortuorum.3.5, and Hippolytus Thebanus (8th cent.) in his
fragmenta.8c5 (both said that a Christian’s immortality was to begin when their body was
translated like Enoch’s); and finally, Eusebius spoke of God figuratively translating
Christians at the end of the age in his preparatio evangelica.7.8
The word ekpheugo is used to mean escape, especially avoidance of eternal
punishment, by Ignatius of Antioch (d. 110) in his Epistle of Trallianeos.2.1 and Justin
Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho.138.3 and First Apology.68.2.
24 Apostasia is used as
meaning departure by the apocryphal apocalyptic book of Domitio Mariae. Apostasis is
used to mean departure by Clement of Alexandria in his stromateis.4.22.
25 The Greek
words relating to rapture not used at all by the Fathers are: epairo, poreuomai, allasso,
and sozo.
As can be seen from the above citations, the Fathers had an understanding of the
concept of rapture, referred to the Old Testament raptures of Enoch and Elijah and the
New Testament raptures of Paul, John, and Jesus, and even made eight specific
references to the rapture of Christians
Thys Marais
Troy Day did all these knoledge saved you! Whow sir, the world is lost! Jesus died in vaign!
Varnel Watson
Thys Marais oh WOW so now absolutely OUT any ammo you attack me ad hominem as a person without even knowing me YES this knowledge saved me from non-learned folk on the internets who claim they studied church history for 30yrs Pls note one of my doctoral degrees is indeed in historical theology So as if you didnt get enough already here is more again
Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation.2
Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century.
He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model.
This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:3
“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”
Thys Marais
Troy Day I do not need your education! As I said! The Word, studied with HS insperation, tought me much more then all the teological studies you have done!
Ronald Burns
Troy Day I’m still waiting for the answer to my question from another post. How do you trace your roots back to the early church fathers as you say you can, when your founder wasn’t even ordained. You have to be ordained to be able to trace your roots back to the early church fathers and the Apostles who you guys are big on.
Varnel Watson
Ronald Burns appreciate you repeating the question as I may have missed it in the many posts with my tag. I am not sure what you mean though by tracing roots to church fathers and being big on the apostles. I also do not know who do you include in the derogatory “you guys” BUT I can speak of myself
I dont trace any roots to anyone I simply read the BIBLE I find Jesus, John and Paul speaking of rapture I study it Then I would like to to know how the Early Church closest to them interpret their words I find rapture again in the church fathers
I am not sure I can answer anything else within your question as it seems you got me wrong. BTW x-delta specops here long long time ago Thank you for your service
Ronald Burns
Troy Day You posted on an earlier post that the early church fathers believed in a pre-trib rapture. This is not entirely true, but that’s neither here nor there. My point was, if your going to use the early church fathers as a reference and being a Pentacostal and if the Pentacostal Movement is going to hold a position on this by citing the early church fathers, then they need to at least be able to trace their roots (ordination) back to them, otherwise their not the early church fathers of the Pentacostal Movement. Charle Parham is the early church Father for Pentecostalism. He was never ordained by a church father.
Varnel Watson
Ronald Burns You are actually incorrect and now avoiding the issue I answered your question to the best of my abil. YES The Ancient Church Fathers Believed in Pre-Trib Rapture Virtually ALL were pre-mil before Augustine came about defending Byzantine as God’s kingdom without a physical Christ present
Since all were pre-mil most of them were pre-trib as well I’ve cited virtually ALL of them that are I can also provide original of their writings for your personal examination What else is there to say? The church fathers believed pre-trib and wrote about it Their works says it all It says what it says Cant change it
Your logic about Pentecostals is OFF topic You seem to be assuming I am one based on something in your head I simply used this reference as the BEST one I’ve found on the net There is also a good dissertation about this I came to find But again WHY the circular logic? You ask about pre-Trib then jump on church fathers then you jump on Pentecostals This is illogical and irrelevant to my claim NAMELY The Ancient Church Fathers Believed in Pre-Trib Rapture and I am happy to defend THAT claim with actual historical references instead of jumping on your strawman argument that I personally have NO claimed http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
Ronald Burns
Troy Day First of all, not virtually all were pre-mil. Justin Martyr said so himself. I think most were pre-mil, just as most are pre-trib today, but Justin Martyr said himself,
“I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion (temporal 1000 year reign), and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.” (Dialogue with Trypho, CHAPTER LXXX — THE OPINION OF JUSTIN WITH REGARD TO THE REIGN OF A THOUSAND YEARS.”
However, pre-mil does not automatically mean they were almost all pre-trib. Not only that but the early fathers were just like us. They were susceptible to mistakes. Justin Martyr bought into Barnabas day year theory which has sense been refuted.
But even still, I’m not sure why you cite the early church fathers. You early church father is a Charles Parham.
Varnel Watson
Ronald Burns Sorry I am not the habit of talking on FB while I am in church I find it strange that you msg me @ 10:02 am on Sunday WHEN most of us just then step into a pulpit to minister. Speaks of character and respect
Justin is great example though Romanic one but still good. He traces everything back to Paul in the following manner. The Epistles unfold the second coming into two main phases; the rapture and the revelation 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. I think that the use of the word “we” by Paul suggests he expected to be caught up (raptured). Paul knew that there was to be trouble associated before the establishment of the kingdom.
Daniel 9:26-27 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The view of Paul seems to be that Israel will be provoked by jealousy to receive Jesus her king and the kingdom will come. Instead the temple was destroyed and many of the Jews were dispersed. The early church fathers then started to deemphasize the kingdom and elevate the “church” as there appeared no discernable role for Israel. The deemphasis was not so much deliberate as it was the result of not having a focus on end times and having a greater focus on the immediate.
The earliest example of pre-millennial belief is Justin Martyr, but he did not ascribe to it as dogma, and was aware that others interpreted differently than him. The other answers have dealt with the origin of the concept of ‘Rapture’ as we have it today. A cursory examination of the early church fathers reveals that they were predominantly premillennialists or chiliasts. Clear examples in the writings of Barnabas(ca. 100-150), Papias (ca. 60-130), Justin Martyr (110-165), Irenaeus(120-202), Tertullian (145-220), Hippolytus (c. 185-236), Cyprian (200-250), and Lactantius (260-330)
Justin Martyr in the 2nd century was one of the first Christian writers to clearly describe himself as continuing in the pre-tribulation notion, meaning that the rapture of the church will occur before a period of tribulation. In fact, Justin Martyr is the earliest example of pre-millennial belief who went so far as to suggest that anyone with a different viewpoint was heretical. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 80 (238). Trypho objecting that Christ is described as glorious by Daniel, Justin distinguishes two advents pre-trib rapture and so on You can see it for yourself here https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01283.htm
Ronald Burns
Troy Day not all church starts at 10:00 on the dot bud. Some start at 11:00
Ronald Burns
Troy Day 2 Thessalonians 2:1:5 has the rapture after the man of sin is revealed.
Varnel Watson
Ronald Burns not really We can talk about that as a well in a separate topic I was simply addressing your issue with Justin He was pre-mil and that settles it for me
Ronald Burns
Troy Day I never said the early church fathers weren’t pre-mil. Pre-mil and pre-trib are not the same. I am pre mil
Ronald Burns
Your using the fact that they were pre-mil to mean that they were all automatically pre-trib. That’s not honest. I believe we will be raptured before the millinial kingdom. I don’t believe it is a pre-trib rapture.
Varnel Watson
Ronald Burns Paul is pretty clear in 1 and 2 Thes when you read it in the Greek I posted plenty about this yesterday Pls read it when you get a free moment No I am now using the the fact that they were pre-mil to mean that they were all automatically pre-trib I make great distinct between both every time I post I believe it is pretty clear by now which one is which Again check the Greek to clarify
Ronald Burns
Troy Day I am very familiar with the Greek. 2 Thessalonians say the gathering does not take place until after these things. Falling away and the man of sin is revealed.
Ronald Burns
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Ronald Burns
What day is verse 3 talking about? Hint: it’s in the first verse.
Varnel Watson
Ronald Burns Obviiously you are NOT very familiar with the Greek Actually it seems you are not familiar at all So I will repeat the Greek just like you are repeating the following common misconception Dale Moody has written, “Dispensationalism with the modern form of seven dispensations, eight covenants, and a Pretribulation Rapture is a deviation that has not been traced beyond 1830.” Dale Moody, The Word of Truth (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1981), 555, quoted in Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism (Chicago: Moody Press, 1995), 14-15. Daniel Fuller has similarly written: “Ignorance is bliss, and it may well be that this popularity [of dispensationalism] would not be so great if the adherents of this system knew the historical background of what they teach. Few indeed realize that the teaching of Chafer came from Scofield, who in turn got it through the writings of Darby and the Plymouth Brethren.” Daniel P. Fuller, “The Hermeneutics of Dispensationalism” (TH.D. dis., Northern Baptist Theological Seminary, Chicago, 1975), 136, quoted in Ryrie, Dispensationalism, 61. To these critics, never mind that there is ample evidence of dispensational-type thinking in the writings of the early fathers. See generally Larry V. Crutchfield, “Ages and Dispensations in the Ante-Nicene Fathers” Bibliotheca Sacra (October-December 1987).
Ronald Burns
Troy Day ok. So let’s just explain everything away and try to hide behind the Greek by assuming I have no knowledge of the Greek. The Greek says it the same way.
Varnel Watson
Ronald Burns NOPE The Greek is clear I posted you enough to read all afternoon Lets talk when you are ready
Ronald Burns
You twisted a direct quote from Justin Martyr and now your going to twist scripture. It clearly states that the gathering will not take place until after these things.
Varnel Watson
Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation.2
Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century.
He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model.
This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:3
“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”
Mike Forfar
So great hold did the conviction that the papacy was the Antichrist gain upon the minds of men, that Rome at last saw she must bestir herself, and try, by putting forth other systems of interpretation, to counteract the identification of the papacy with the Antichrist. Accordingly, towards the close of the century of the reformation, two of her most learned doctors set themselves to task, each endeavouring by different means to accomplish the same end; namely, that of diverting men’s minds from perceiving the fulfilment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the papal system. The Jesuit Alcazar devoted himself to bring into prominence the Preterist method of interpretation,… that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the popes ever ruled at Rome, and therefore could not apply to the papacy. On the other hand the Jesuit Ribera tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the papal power by bringing out the Futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly not to the career of the papacy, but to that of some future supernatural individual, who is yet to appear, and to continue in power for three and a half years at the end of time. Thus, as Alford says, the Jesuit Ribera, about AD 1580, may be regarded as the founder of the Futurist system in modern times. “It is a matter of deep regret that those who hold and advocate the Futurist system at the present day, Protestants as they are for the most part, are really playing into the hands of Rome, and helping to screen the papacy from detection as the Antichrist. It has been well said that ‘Futurism tends to obliterate the brand put by the Holy Spirit upon popery.’ More especially is this to be deplored at a time when the papal Antichrist seems to make an expiring effort to regain his former hold on men’s minds. Now once again, as at the Reformation, it is especially necessary that his true character should be recognised, by all who would be faithful to ‘the testimony of Jesus.’ ” “Daniel and the Revelation” pp 16-17 The Rev Joseph Tanner, 1898.
Varnel Watson
Mike Forfar Many modern day theologians posit that the beginning of the teaching of the
Rapture, as a belief within the traditional orthodox Church, did not occur until around the
year 1830 Even most of them admit that the Church Fathers were
premillennialists (believing in a literal interpretation of the Book of Revelation,6 with its
view of a Tribulation, an Antichrist, and Jesus establishing an earthly kingdom for a
thousand years, Millennium, from the Latin words milus, meaning thousand and annum,
meaning years, after His Second Coming).
The Greek word episunagoge is mentioned as the eschatological gathering of the
faithful to Christ by: Dionysius Alexandrinus (d. 264) in Eusebius’ historia
ecclessiasticae.7.24.5, Eusebius (d. 399), himself, in his demonstratio evangelica.2.3, and
Cyrillus Alexandrinus (d. 444) in his commentarius in John.3.4.
20 Metatithemi (to
translate persons) is used to address rapture by: Clement of Rome (1st cent.), to describe
Enoch’s rapture in his First Epistle to the Corinthians.9.3; Irenaeus (d. 202), who says,
“Enoch was translated, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just and
that those who were translated into Paradise, as a prelude to immortality will remain there
until the completion of the age,” in his Against Heresies.5.5.1; Methodius (d. 311) in his
de resurrectione mortuorum.3.5, and Hippolytus Thebanus (8th cent.) in his
fragmenta.8c5 (both said that a Christian’s immortality was to begin when their body was
translated like Enoch’s); and finally, Eusebius spoke of God figuratively translating
Christians at the end of the age in his preparatio evangelica.7.8
The word ekpheugo is used to mean escape, especially avoidance of eternal
punishment, by Ignatius of Antioch (d. 110) in his Epistle of Trallianeos.2.1 and Justin
Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho.138.3 and First Apology.68.2.
24 Apostasia is used as
meaning departure by the apocryphal apocalyptic book of Domitio Mariae. Apostasis is
used to mean departure by Clement of Alexandria in his stromateis.4.22.
25 The Greek
words relating to rapture not used at all by the Fathers are: epairo, poreuomai, allasso,
and sozo.
As can be seen from the above citations, the Fathers had an understanding of the
concept of rapture, referred to the Old Testament raptures of Enoch and Elijah and the
New Testament raptures of Paul, John, and Jesus, and even made eight specific
references to the rapture of Christians
Mike Forfar
Troy Day the term apostasia in the New Testament and in the Septuagint is used exclusively for religious defection, a departure from the faith. It never refers to the departure of the Church from the earth. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 it is correctly translated as “the rebellion” in both the Revised Standard Version and the New International Version. The definite article “the” before “rebellion” points to a well-known apostasy about which Paul had informed the Thessalonians earlier (verse 5) and which he now explains more fully in the following verses, especially verses 4, 9 and 10. The apocalyptic apostasy, says Paul, will be a deliberate departure from the apostolic faith, a rebellion against God, led by the antichrist.” The Israel of God in Prophecy” Hans LaRondelle. Andrews University Press, Berrigan Springs Michigan, 1983 p203
Varnel Watson
Jessica Buchanan no such luck with your mormonic suggestion 🙂 Most believe that HE is the church as in the he-body of Christ as NO where in the NT the church is addressed as a SHE Now you’ve got to go chew on this for a bit 🙂
Jessica Buchanan
Troy Day It’s not a mormon suggestion. I honestly did not know the difference or the belief. I’ve only been a believer for a little over a year. I apologize for any offense.
Varnel Watson
Jessica Buchanan actually it is STRAIGHT mormon from Morroni Pls open the link and see the authors who I mention If needed I will copy you their whole papers for further clarification
Jessica Buchanan
Troy Day Thank you for explaining this to me. I will need to study so much more.
Varnel Watson
come on Thys Marais a bit more history for you today my friend
This thesis investigated whether the doctrine of the premillennial, pretribulation
Rapture of the Church, as a separate event from Jesus’ second coming, originated in the
early Church or with the Dispensational Movement around 1830. Although the term
“rapture” does not itself appear in Scripture, it comes from the Latin words, rapere and
rapiemur and from the Greek word harpazo (which does appear in the New Testament).
The New Testament text supports the concept of a Rapture of the Church, as well as
being confirmed by the raptures of Enoch, Elijah and Jesus. There are related terms in the
New Testament that have been addressed, the foremost being parousia. There are also
related non-scriptural, theological terms that were defined, the foremost being
eschatology, premillennialism, pretribulationalism and imminence. The writings of the
Ante-Nicene Fathers were examined to see if they address any of these terms. Subsequent
historical church writings were also reviewed to uncover any mention of the Rapture.
The first direct reference to the Rapture (as the Church escaping the Great
Tribulation) is found in the early second century apocalyptic writing of the Shepherd of
Hermas. In the fourth vision, chapter 1, he says, [emphasis added] “I saw another vision,
brethren-a representation of the tribulation that is to come.” Then in chapter 2, he says,
“lo! a virgin meets me, adorned as if she were proceeding from the bridal chamber” and
“I knew from my former visions that this was the Church,” and then, “You have escaped
from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the
presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds,
and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye
prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible
for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days
of your life in the serving the Lord blamelessly.”31 Notice also, the statement that to
escape the tribulation the Church must keep a “pure and spotless” heart. This is the same
language used in 2 Peter 3:14, speaking of the Rapture of the Church.
Mike Forfar
apostaeia means departure from the truth NOT departure from the earth
Varnel Watson
YAP you are right except The next reference is found in The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (The
Didache – hope you dont think they are your apostaeia ), written in the mid-second century, and with the help of the footnotes paints a
clear picture of the chronology of events of the End Times (Rapture, Antichrist,
Tribulation, Second Coming). In chapter 16, verses 3-8, it says [emphasis added],
For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the
sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when
lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and
then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do
iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then
shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to
stumble and shall perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from
under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of
an outspreading of heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the
third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall
come and all his saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon
the clouds of heaven. Notice, the context is the Last Days and the quote starts out with the signs of the times,
coinciding with Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Next, the appearance of the
antichrist and the Tribulation are addressed. Then, there comes the exclusionary “but,”
they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. The footnote in
the text after this statement says, “from under the curse itself; namely, that which has just
been described.”33 This is a direct reference to the Church being saved from the
Tribulation.
Mike Forfar
i dont know why you post this as if it has any weight.
2Thess 2:1 “Now brethren, concerning the coming [Greek: parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,”
Mike Forfar
2Thess 2:3 “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day [the rapture] will not come unless the falling away (apostasia) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,”
Varnel Watson
Mike Forfar I see you are struggling with this Bible truth so let me help you with a direct quote from Clement of Rome on the rapture IF you still need 2 Ths 2 explained PLS just tag me and I will be happy to do it
Clement of Rome (30-100) spoke about the Rapture in his First Epistle to the
Corinthians. Following the logical flow of his teaching from chapter to chapter yields the
result of a Pretribulation Rapture of the Church. As Irenaeus did, Clement first gives
Enoch as an example and then mentions the Lord delivering Noah (chap. 9). He also
mentions the Lord saving Lot (chap. 11) and Rahab (chap. 12). Then, he speaks
specifically to the Church in chapter 23, [emphasis added] “Compare yourselves to a tree:
take [for instance] the vine. First of all, it sheds its leaves, then it buds, next if puts forth
leaves, and then it flowers; after that comes the sour grape, and then follows the ripened
fruit. . . . Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture
also bears witness, saying, ‘Speedily will He come, and will not tarry;’ and, ‘The Lord
shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Holy One, for whom ye look.”
Mike Forfar
Troy Day ok you read my bible study that i wrote on it then we can thrash it out.
http://3-angels.net/index.php?option=com_rokdownloads&view=file&Itemid=4&id=572:the-666-antichrist-the-man-of-sin
Varnel Watson
Mike Forfar wonderful – 1 observation BEFORE you equate 1Jn antiChrist with 666 of the Rev beast you need to prove it Lots of calvinators start with the beast is not the antiChrist ; antiChrist is only a spirit and so on All and while JOHN has THE antiChrist specified in the epistles which shows a specific person with def. article and then he calls that person the beast in rev – but calvinators are evil when they argue and will not tell you that SO before you equate them you need to prove them As per the 1 thes the Greek is pretty clear on the rapture being pre-trib there I rather not add anything else to Paul at this time
Varnel Watson
here we go Jessica Buchanan 2 VERY important papers
David J. Garrard, Presented to the General Council of the Assemblies of God of Great Britain and Ireland, at Pwllheli, North Wales, on the 28/4/2003
The importance of keeping the Premillennial rider in any statement of Faith regarding the Second Coming of Christ http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/premillennial-rider-in-any-statement-of-faith/
AND Do Pentecostals need to be Premillennial? A Discussion Paper submitted to the General Council of the Assemblies of God. By Bob Hyde http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/premillennial-pentecostals/
Ty Moore
psh….scholars
Dave Holdway
Not all..
Varnel Watson
actually MOST still do says latest research You only have NAR deviating away Thats it
Dave Holdway
Troy Day plus me…. although perhaps I shouldn’t call myself a modern Pentecostal.
Varnel Watson
Dave Holdway The Epistles unfold the second coming into two main phases; the rapture and the revelation
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I think that the use of the word “we” by Paul suggests he expected to be caught up (raptured).
Paul knew that there was to be trouble associated before the establishment of the kingdom.
Daniel 9:26-27 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The view of Paul seems to be that Israel will be provoked by jealousy to receive Jesus her king and the kingdom will come. Instead the temple was destroyed and many of the Jews were dispersed. The early church fathers then started to deemphasize the kingdom and elevate the “church” as there appeared no discernable role for Israel. The deemphasis was not so much deliberate as it was the result of not having a focus on end times and having a greater focus on the immediate.
I believe the earliest example of pre-millennial belief is Justin Martyr, but he did not ascribe to it as dogma, and was aware that others interpreted differently than him. The other answers have dealt with the origin of the concept of ‘Rapture’ as we have it today.
A cursory examination of the early church fathers reveals that they were
predominantly premillennialists or chiliasts. Clear examples in the writings of
Barnabas(ca. 100-150), Papias (ca. 60-130), Justin Martyr (110-165), Irenaeus(120-
202), Tertullian (145-220), Hippolytus (c. 185-236), Cyprian (200-250), and
Lactantius (260-330)
Justin Martyr in the 2nd century was one of the first Christian writers to clearly describe himself as continuing in the … It is often post-tribulational, meaning that the rapture of the church will occur after a period of tribulation.
In fact, Justin Martyr is the earliest example of pre-millennial belief who went so far as to suggest that anyone with a different viewpoint was heretical
Justin M artyr, Dialogue with Trypho 80 (238) – Chapter 32. Trypho objecting that Christ is described as glorious by Daniel, Justin distinguishes two advents
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01283.htm
Dave Holdway
Troy Day nah, they were nearly all historicists.
The misconception is that because they were talking about the antichrist to come that they were pre tribbers.
Not so.
Apart from one or two, they knew Daniel and what Jesus said and were stating the obvious to them, that great tribulation was still ahead of them, the Roman Empire had not yet fallen and so the final antichrist had not yet appeared.
Same with Paul and all the Apostles, including Timothy in Ephesus.
Read 2 Thessalonians 2.
They knew the antichrist (little horn of Daniel) was centuries away.
Varnel Watson
Ronald Burns you are jumping from verse to verse like you are cherry picking I would love to discuss each verse in the original greek but I do NOT mix topics Dont mind splitting the topic so we can cover each of your verses of interest especially 1 2 thes that has been in my translation interest for many years
2Thes 2,2: “hWS hOTI ENESTHKEN hH hHMERA TOU CRISTOU”
Is ENESTHKEN in both cases a proleptic Perfect ? That means the events are still future.
My other question is the exact meaning of “SUNUPAKOUETAI TAUTA TOIS PROKEIMENOIS” – I can’t handle the semantics and the syntax.
http://probible.net/2-thessalonians-22/
2 Thess 2:15″] In his commentary on 2 Thessalonians, W. Marxsen claims that since 2:15 εἴτε δι’ ἐπιστολὴς ἡμῶν lacks an article (as in εἴτε δι’ τῆς ἐπιστολὴς ἡμῶν) it does not refer back to a specific letter (e.g., to 1 Thessalonians) but is meant in a general sense to refer to any ole letter that he may have written (or not). If he had wanted to refer to 1 Thessalonians in particular, he would have used the article. I’m interested in the grammatical question. What do y’all think? http://probible.net/2-thessalonians-215/
Read carefully as this is NOT just MY take but some of the greatest Greek scholars in the country speaking They ALL prove your understanding wrong – which is NOT yours of course but you read it somewhere where someone who had little clue of actual koine Greek attempted to do exegesis Read and learn Good luck
Ronald Burns
There is nothing that will convince you. This conversation is done bud.
Varnel Watson
Ronald Burns I did not do any such thing I simply showed the context from where your quote was taken out of context and you saw your quote was misquoted THEN I tagged you in greek discussions about verses you obviously have no clue about You dont want to reckon with the Greek, you dont wanna hear the church fathers, you dont wanna hear theologians or a person with 2 PhDs above you – how are you going to learn? Simple answer – you aint BTW I aint your bud Didnt your mamma teach you to have respect to your elders
Ronald Burns
Troy Day typical logical fallacy. Appeal to accreditation. You win. I lose. How is bud disrespect. I mean you have serious issues. You appeal to accreditation and then your age. Is that how you shut other people down.
Anonymous
True – most do