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| PentecostalTheology.comTongues
as “The Initial Spirit Baptism
in the
Glen Menzies
175
Physical Sign”
of Thought
of D. W. Kerr
As a Pentecostal people, we hold that the Bible evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which is promised by the Lord Jesus Christ to His and to all them that are afar
disciples,
off, and as many as the Lord our God shall call, is speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. We have found that whenever we, as a people, begin to let down on this particular point, the fire dies out, the ardor and fervor begin to wane, the glory departs. We have found where this position is held and wherever it is proclaimed, the Lord is
working. working.
is its doctrine
the
Holy Spirit”
is described ers who seek
tongues
constitutes a visible
sign, inferences recorded the book
This
Spirit baptism
Pentecostals
– D. W. Kerrl I
in the
movement,
as “the
The chief distinctive and sine
qLCa non
of the Pentecostal movement
that “an enduement with
power”
called “the
baptism
in
in
Scripture
and is available to all believ-
it.2 2
Moreover,
Pentecostals maintain that
speaking
in
warranted
by
the
descriptions
and
of Acts, that one has been
baptized
in the Holy Spirit.
with the evidence of
speaking
in tongues
is often referred to,
by participants
Pentecostal
experience.”
have
always
understood
vide evidence of
baptism
in the
Holy Spirit.
On the other
hand,
this
theology
of “evidence” has not
always
been articulated in
exactly
the same
way.
a
of the full
panorama
of Pentecostal
explanations
of tongues
Pentecostal
theology.
discussion
gifts”
apostolic age.
speaking
in
tongues
to
pro-
That is a hallmark of
While
1D. W. Kerr, “The Bible Evidence of the
Baptism
with the
Holy Ghost;” Pentecostal Evangel, 11 August 1923, 2.
– Before the eruption of the charismatic movement in the 1960s, Pentecostals would also have differed from most other Christians in maintaining that the gifts of the Spirit described in such
of
passages as Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12-including
the “oral
tongues, the interpretation of tongues, prophecy, the word of wisdom, and the word of
knowledge-are
available to the church today, just as they were in the
In contrast, most Christians regarded glossolalia in particular as a token of fanaticism and emotional excess. But due to the eruption of the charismat- ic movement in the 1960s and its widespread success in popularizing this Pentecostal
of spiritual gifts outside of Pentecostal circles, the notion that all of the
of the Spirit are available to the contemporary church no
of Pentecostalism. And while Pentecostals
longer constitutes a “distinctive”
rejoice that in this regard the rest of the church has moved in their direction, this “success” has only intensified the need for Spirit baptism and evidential to
to Pentecostalism.
tongues provide distinctive identity and internal cohesion
understanding gifts
1
176
as evidence would be both
interesting
and
useful,
this article will attempt something
much less ambitious.
In this
study
the views of Daniel W. Kerr, an
early
Assemblies of God
leader,
will be
explored
with a
single key question
in mind: Did Kerr believe that
tongues
as “the initial
physical sign”
of baptism in the Holy Spirit always
occurred
simultaneously
with that
Spirit baptism? Or was it possible that the
sign
sometimes followed the
Spirit’s
work? There is another
way
to state this
question:
Would Kerr have
disagreed with the
following
sentences from the 1981 Assemblies of God
position paper
entitled “The Initial
Physical
Evidence of the
Baptism
in the Holy Spirit”?
The expression initial physical evidence of the Baptism refers to the first outward sign that the Holy Spirit has come in filling power. A study of
indicates there was a
by which observers knew that believers
Scripture
had been
baptized
in the physical sign
Holy Spirit.
The evidence
always occurred at the very time the believers were baptized in the Spirit and not on some future occasion.3
_
3Where We Stand:
The
Official Position Papers of
the Assemblies of God (Springfield, MO: Gospel Publishing 147. While the
House, 1994; originally published in 1989),
emphasis
of this paragraph is clearly upon the simultaneity of the of
tongues with baptism sentences in the
a measure of tension between the three sign in the Spirit,
is also evident.
logical
According to the first sentence, the “tirst outward
sign”
indicates that the Holy Spirit has come
paragraph
upon
the believer,
filling him the believers had been
or her.
Similarly,
the second sentence notes that
baptized.
The perfect
tense of the first sentence and the pluperfect of the second indicate that the sign follows
the baptism. These assertions in the first two sentences seem to contra- dict the assertion of the third sentence: “The evidence always occurred at the very time the believers were baptized in the
Spirit
and not on some future occasion: ‘ There has been some question about the status of
of God. Where We Stand: The Official Position Papers of the Assemblies of God
position papers in the Assemblies begins
with this sentence: “The statements on the issues in this book were approved as the official statements of The General Council of the Assemblies of God by the General Presbytery, the ruling body of the Assemblies of God, over the past twenty years.”
This affirmation seems to conflict with a which was
to Status of Position and Their report Use in Dealing With
given by
the “Committee
Study Papers
Deviant Doctrines” at the 1991 General Council held in Portland, Oregon and an
resolution (24) approved by the General Council. The committee was chaired
accompanying
Richard Dresselhaus, D.Min.
Both the committee by
report and the resolution make a distinction between (1) posi- tion papers which have both been approved by the General Presbytery and also rati- fied by the General Council, and (2) position papers which have
approved
the General Presbytery. In the report, this statement
only
been by appears:
“The committee is of the opinion that a paper which may be the basis for credentialing, discipline, or
decisions should result from some involvement of the General Council in membership session.” Moreover, the resolution describes papers approved only by the General Presbytery
as “primarily information” and not “the official position of the Assemblies of God.” As of 1991 one position paper had been ratified by a General Council, the one entitled “Divorce only and Remarriage,” and this status of one approved paper by the General Council still seems to be the case.
2
177
In a sense, this article also constitutes an informal historical com- mentary
on Article 8 (Article 6 according to the
original numbering
of 1916)
of the Assemblies of God’s Statement of Fundamental Truths, presently
entitled “The Initial
Physical
Evidence of the
Baptism
in the Holy
Ghost:’4
Hopefully, by examining
other
writings
of D. W.
Kerr, the
primary
author of the Statement of Fundamental
Truths,
additional clarity
will be achieved
concerning
how he understood the affirmation that “The full consummation of the
baptism
of believers in the
Holy Ghost and fire is indicated
by
the initial
physical sign
of
speaking
in tongues
as the
Spirit
of God
gives
utterance.”
The
Special Significance of D.
W. Kerr
Daniel W. Kerr was an able
pastor,
an
early
Pentecostal
publisher and editor, and a fine teacher. One of his most
significant
contributions to the Assemblies of God, however, has to do with his role in the com- position
of the Statement of Fundamental Truths-and the attendant triumph
of trinitarian
theology
over Oneness
theology
in the Assemblies of God-in 1916. A
gifted teacher,
Kerr was instrumental in founding three Assemblies of God schools:
Bethany College
of the . Assemblies of God, Southern California
College,
and Central Bible College,
and he continued to exert influence in the Assemblies of God until his death in 1927.
In October of 1916 the fourth General Council of the
fledgling Assemblies of God was held in St. Louis. The
all-consuming
issue of the
day
was the “New Issue” or “Oneness.” To deal with this issue Chairman John W. Welch
appointed
a committee of five men to prepare a statement of fundamental truths.
They
were T. K.
Leonard, S. A. Jamieson, S.
H. Frodsham, E. N.
Bell,
and D. W. Kerr. These men faced the enormous
challenge,
not
only
of a divided
fellowship,
but also of a endemic fear of “creedalism” within the Council. “Each member of the committee contributed to the eventual committee
report, but the
greatest
contribution came from D. W.
Kerr, pastor
in Cleveland,
Ohio.”5 Kerr, who was
something
of a Greek scholar, had been
preparing
himself
assiduously
for the Council because he
recog- nized the
magnitude
of the issue.
According
to Lewis
Wilson,
… he spent hours in his Greek Testament and his theology and church his-
books studying the new doctrine. Satisfied that it was error, he wrote for the Weekly Evangel and worked with the presbytery on a statement tory
4The title of Article 8 has undergone revision over the years. It was originally enti- tled “‘The Full Consummation of the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.”
5William W. Menzies, Anointed to Serve (Springfield, MO:
Gospel Publishing House, 1971 ), 119.
3
178
which could unite the young fellowship. At the 1916 Council, he was assigned
the opening sermon and was one of a five-member committee appointed
to prepare a statement of fundamental truths. The finished prod- uct, largely the work of Kerr, assured that the Assemblies would remain orthodoxly
trinitarian.6
Kerr’s influence on the Assemblies of God
by taking
the lead in writing
the Statement of Fundamental Truths can
hardly
be overesti- mated, yet oddly
to this
point
in time
relatively
little effort has been expended clarifying
the intent of the Statement of Fundamental Truths through
examination of his other
writings.7
The Full Consummation
of the Baptism
in the
Holy
Ghost
Nearly
as long as all of the Statement of Fundamental Truths’ other sixteen articles
combined,
the
great length
of Article 13
(“The Essentials as to the
Godhead”)
reflects
quite clearly
the
degree
to which the Oneness
Controversy
dominated the attention of the 1916 General Council. While we do not have a
transcript
of the Council’s debate, Article 6 (“The Full Consummation of the
Baptism
in the
Holy Ghost”) likely generated
little debate
by comparison.
As
approved
in
1916,g
it read:
6. THE FULL CONSUMMATION OF THE BAPTISM IN THE HOLY GHOST.
The full consummation of the baptism of believers in the Holy Ghost and fire,9 is indicated 10 by the initial
[physical] 11 sign
of
speaking
in
6Lewis Wilson, “The Kerr-Peirce Role in A/G Education,” Assemblies of God Heritage
10 (spring 1990): 6.
7For a discussion of Kerr’s eschatology and a comparison with Article 14 Millennial
(“The
Reign
of Christ”) of the Statement of Fundamental
Truths, see Glen Menzies and Gordon L. Anderson, “D. W. Kerr and Eschatological Diversity in the Assemblies of God” Paraclete 27 (winter 1993): 8-16.
8The wording of the form. The
original article differed makes this clear: If one considerably from the
counts all of the words present contained in the current Article 8 of the Statement of Fundamental Truths
following statistic
the title, but excluding
numbers from the
count)
and then
compares
them with the (including words in the original,
it becomes evident that exactly half, 32 of 64 words, did not occur in the original The
1916 form of this article.
phrase “and fire” disappeared from this article through a resolution the General Council held passed by
September 9-14, 1917 (cf. note 11 below), although it does in the article entitled first “The Promise of the Father” and subse- appear regularly “The
quently Baptism in
the Holy Ghost.”
I 101n 1927 the word “witnessed” replaced the word “indicated.” The word “physical” does not actually appear in the Statement of Fundamental Truths published in the minutes of the General Council held October 1-7, 1916. The minutes of the General Council held in St. Louis from September 9-14, 1917 explain
4
179
tongues,12 as the Spirit of God gives utterance.13 Acts 2:4. This wonderful is distinct from and
subsequent to the experience of the new birth.
experience
Acts 10:44-46; 11:14-16; 15 :8, 9.14
The
phrase
“the full consummation is
enlightening.
These words
suggest
that a
process
is
being described,
the
completion
of which is marked
by speaking
in tongues.
Apparently
Kerr has in mind a set series of events. Note how Kerr elsewhere describes the consum- mation of this
process:
… it is said that “while Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.” And “Paul laid his hands on them and the Holy Ghost came upon them.” The terms fell on and came
upon
as used in these passages express the result of the pouring out or the shedding forth of the
It seems Spirit. clear that the Baptism with the
Holy Spirit is the result of the outpouring;
at least it is
plain that the Baptism
is the consummation of the sovereign
act of God in bestowing the Promise of the Father upon believers.
Looking
then from the viewpoint of the sovereignty of God, we see four specific
terms which the Scriptures use to express the method of
bestowing the Promise
upon the Promisees; viz., giving, pouring, falling, and baptiz- ing,
is the result of the Spirit falling upon the believer. Further, these terms are never used interchangeably; that is, each term has an individual
that particular phase and the
meaning whereby stage of
believer’s experience as dis-
from the other phases and stages in the process, is expressed. Hence it is not necessary that all the terms should be used uniformly in the tinguished
record of New Testament experience, because (the terms being logically
that “By an oversight last year the word ‘physical’ got left out before the word in reference to
`sign’
tongues as the initial physical sign of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.” A resolution correcting this error, the phrase “and fire” (cf. note 9 above), changing
the
expression “gives
utterance” removing to “gives them utterance” (cf. note 13 below), and adding a sentence to the end of the article
passed “with
three or four dissenting votes”
only
(p. 21).
? 2By
action of the General Council which met September 4-11, 1918 the
in
phrase “speaking
tongues” was changed to “speaking with other tongues.”
l3In 1917 the word “them” was inserted between “gives” and “utterance” (cf. note 11 above).
l4ln subsequent years several changes were made to this statement. In 1927 the initial four words of the first sentence (“The full consummation of’) were deleted and “witnessed” was substituted for “indicated.” At the same time the second sentence
(“This wonderful experience” etc.) was moved to the article entitled “The Promise of the Father.” In 1917 an additional sentence was appended to this article: “It is also distinct from the gift of tongues, 1 Cor. 12:4, 10, 28.” This new sentence was then
in 1918 with the following sentence: “The speaking in tongues in this instance is the same in essence as the
replaced
and use.”
gift of tongues, 1 Cor. 12:4-10, 28, but differ- ent in
The title of purpose this article has also changed a couple of times. In 1927 it was
of the in the Ghost.” In it was
changed to “The Evidence
Baptism Holy
1983
changed to “The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Ghost.”
5
180
related) the use of one term will naturally suggest the other terms. [Bold indicates Kerr’s own emphasis; italics mark emphasis added.] 15
While this account is more
cryptic
than we would
desire,
certain points
are clear. Kerr is
describing
God’s bestowal of the Promise of the Father
upon
believers,
that
is,
those who are
already
Christians. This divine bestowal is described as a process which has several
phas- es and
stages. Presumably, speaking
in
tongues
indicates the
comple- tion of this
process.
In 1916 the Assemblies of God had not
yet
achieved a clear con- sensus as to whether sanctification was a crisis event or an
ongoing process.
While the “finished work”
theology
of William H. Durham seems to have been in the ascent, the use of the term “entire sanctifica- tion” in the Statement of Fundamental Truths seems intended to make room for those Pentecostals who had been influenced
by
the
theology of Charles F. Parham and who believed in three
separate
works of grace:
the new
birth,
entire
sanctification,
and an
empowering
for wit- ness called
baptism
in the
Holy
Ghost. To add to the
confusion,
while the Assemblies of God
emphasized empowering
for witness as the chief feature and
purpose
of the
baptism
in the
Spirit,
other
blessings were also claimed to flow from this
experience,
some of which were described with
language usually
connected with sanctification. For instance,
D. W. Kerr
says:
The Holy Ghost has not taken full control until He has
Who has a
got your tongue.
right to your tongue, the devil or the
Ghost? The devil control of Eve’s tongue at the and used it to Holy
got
If the tongue was the first member that the devil used, is
beginning bring about the trans- of Adam.
it a wonder that the Holy Ghost takes this member first? 16
gression
In a similar vein he also
says:
Now this baptism of the Holy Spirit is most wonderful. The more I study about it the more amazed I am, and I see how little we understand about it. … There are unexplored possibilities in our beings; there are realms, like subterranean caverns, way down deep in our natures that are crying after God; and it is a most marvelous thing
when God, the Holy Ghost, the Almighty
God whom the heavens cannot contain, comes down into this great deep
of the heart and begins to move there, and hold of that little member, that unruly member that no man can the gets tame, tongue. It is amaz-
that He gets possession of the will, loosens the moorings, cuts the shore- lines and launches the spirit out of the self-life up into God, 17 ing
W. Kerr, Waters in the Desert (Springfield, MO:
Gospel Publishing House, 1925),41-42.
16D. W. Kerr, “The Basis for Our Distinctive Testimony,” Pentecostal Evangel, 2 September
1922, 4.
from a sermon by D. W. Kerr delivered in 1914, published as “‘The Selfsame Thing,”
Pentecostal Evangel, 31 December 1950, 6-7.
6
181
If some saw a little bit more sanctification in the
baptism
of the Holy
Ghost,
and some saw a little
less,
if some described the
experi- ence more with the
language
of
process
and others with the
language of crisis, it did not matter a
great
deal. A
degree
of doctrinal
fluidity and accommodation was considered desirable as long as the central and salient features of a Pentecostal witness were held forth.
The Initial
Physical Sign Following
the Pentecostal Fullness
As a consequence of Kerr’s
concept
that the Promise of the Father was bestowed in a process comprised of a set order of events, he some- times describes evidential
tongues
as following
the
baptism
in the
Holy Spirit.1
Observe this discussion of Acts 19:
In [the instance of the Caesarean believers] special emphasis is placed on speaking
in tongues as the evidence of the outpouring of the
the fact that the
Holy Spirit, thereby incidentally establishing speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance was regarded in those days as the initial phys- ical sign, following the Pentecostal fullness of the S irit.
[Bold indicates Kerr’s own emphasis; italics mark emphasis added.] I
What is
perhaps
the most
striking
case where Kerr describes evi- dential
tongues “following” Spirit baptism may
be found in a
rough draft of a proposed “Declaration of Fundamental Doctrines,” written in 1925 in Kerr’s own hand.20 When a new constitution for the General Council was
being
drafted
prior
to its 1925
meeting,
Chairman J. W. Welch
assigned
Kerr the task of writing a new doctrinal statement to be included in this constitution, no doubt based at least in part on his
pre- vious success in 1916 in
producing
an
acceptable
statement. Eventually
the decision was made to retain the
existing
Statement of Fundamental Truths rather than Kerr’s new
composition
in the consti- tution
presented
to the 1925 General Council.
Moreover,
when it was presented,
the Council refused to
approve
Welch’s new constitution. Nevertheless,
as an indication of Kerr’s own
views,
the “Declaration” is instructive.
The sixth article of this “Declaration” reads:
.
,
Sixth.
Baptism by the The Spirit.
Baptism by the Spirit, as a present possession obtained through the
of comparison, I know of only one passage where Kerr describes tongues as 18By way
“accompanying” Spirit baptism: “…take every experience with the the
in is the
Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and speaking tongues clearly accompanying sign.”
Kerr, “Bible Evidence,” 3.
l9Kerr, Waters,
44-45.
20Glenn Gohr of the Flower Pentecostal Heritage Center deserves special thanks for providing me with a copy of this manuscript.
7
182
obedience of faith (Acts 5:32), is evidenced [indicated]2 ? the initial ical of
by phys-
sign tongues (Mark 16:17) following the intilling of the believer with the
Spirit according to (Acts 2:4; 10:44-46; 19:6; Eph 5:18-20) [sic]. The essential condition for the infilling with the Spirit is the obedience of faith (Jno [sic] 7:37-39)
and the consequent inward revelation of Jesus Christ (Gal 1:16; 3:1,2; Jno 15:13-15).
The immediate purpose of the gift of the
is the revelation of the things of God ( Cor 2:9-16); a victori- ous life (Luke 4:1-13;
Holy Spirit
Rom 8:1-14; Gal 2:20); power for service (Luke 4:14-19; Acts 1:8); and the redemption of the body (Rom 8:23-25; 2 Cor 5:4,5; 1 Pet 1:3-5) [emphasis added].
This statement affirms without hesitation or embarrassment that
speak- ing
in
tongues follows
the
infilling
with the
Spirit according
to the model of Acts 2:4.22 Note also how in Kerr’s
thought
the domains of Spirit baptism
and sanctification
overlap.
The idea that evidential
tongues
are
logically subsequent,
as
opposed
to temporally subsequent, to baptism in the
Spirit
is a common idea even
today
in the Assemblies of
God, although
it is not
usually stated in these terms. For
instance,
the
logical subsequence
of eviden- tial
tongues
is
recognized
in the
position paper,
“The Initial
Physical Evidence of the
Baptism
in the
Holy Spirit” approved
in 1981
by
the AG General
Presbytery,
when it states that “…other
tongues
is conse- quential
to the
baptism
in the
Holy Spirit….” [emphasis added].23 Similarly,
William W. Menzies has discussed the
problems
raised in 1918 when F. F. Bosworth denied that
tongues
had
any particular
evi- dential value after
witnessing
too
many
who
sought
an
experience
of tongues
rather than the
Holy Spirit.
He observes that “It
might
have been
salutary
if Acts 2:4 had been
thoroughly reexamined,
with a fresh recasting
of priorities
according
to the
scriptural pattern.
The
infilling of the
Spirit
is prior to
tongues,
not the effect:’24
21 In the manuscript the word “indicated” is written as a superscription over the word “evidenced,” apparently indicating that Kerr had not yet made a firm choice between the alternatives.
22E. N. Bell expressed the matter in 1918:
the means to You have similarly
“Speaking in tongues is not
getting the Spirit.
to the first, and the in
is one of the results that follow. Yield get
baptism speaking
yourself fully to God and let Christ Himself become your satisfying portion.”
tongues
See E. N. Bell, “Questions and Answers [427],”
Christian Evangel, 15 June 1918, 5.
23 Where We Stand. 153.
24Menzies, Anointed
to Serve, 127.
8
183
The Initial
Physical Evidence of
the
Baptism
in the
Holy Spirit
Today
in the Assemblies of God the shorthand term “initial evi- dence” is
widely employed.
In
fact,
it is so
commonly
used that one encounters
surprise
if he or she insists on the formulae “initial
physical evidence” or “initial
physical sign.”
In other
words,
the word
“physi- cal” seems to have lost all
significance.
That was not true for the founders of the Assemblies of God. For D. W. Kerr in particular, the alternative to something
“physical”
is nor- mally something “spiritual.”
He
says:
In Mark 16:17, we read, “And these signs shall follow them that believe; in
name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new
shall take
my tongues; they
up serpents; and if
drink it shall not hurt them; they shall
hands
they any deadly thing,
lay
on the sick and they shall recover.” We have here five signs that are mentioned. These signs are what I call
that take
physical signs, signs place on the physical side, and every one of them can be seen.25
He also
says:
The Pentecostal signs may be classified as “spiritual” and “physical.” We
confine ourselves in our “digging” to the physical signs, and more
to the record of “the manifestations of the Spirit,” as
specifi-
cally given in Acts
10:44-48. Here we see tongues as “a sign” dissociated from all the other
of Pentecostal power and life. They are a
which is
signs
altogether
unaccounted for
place and prominence
except
on the given
ground that they are in
their very nature different from all other spiritual and physical signs. In this
particular
instance, as also in other instances of record, tongues are given an
office and function which no other sign was capable of filling or perform-
ing.26
The clear attraction of
“physical” signs
is that
they
are visible and objectively
real.
They
are not mere
subjectivity.
Claims can be made for all sorts of subjective religious experiences, but how are such claims to be validated
by
others?
Physical signs
are not limited in this
way: “When the Lord Jesus has
performed
His office work in baptizing those that
obey
God
according
to the
Scriptures,
the finished
product
can be seen and heard
It is unfortunate that Kerr never
really
elaborates what constitute the
“spiritual signs”
of
Spirit baptism
which he
distinguishes
from “physical signs.” Perhaps
this lack of elaboration is because, not
being physical
or visible to others, these
signs
are not as
easily
described or categorized
as the
physical signs.
25Kerr, “Bible Evidence,” 2.
26D. W. Kerr, “‘The,’ ‘A,’ or ‘An’-Which?” Pentecostal Evangel, 21 January 1922, 7. 27Kerr, “Bible Evidence,” 2.
9
184
The
question presently
at hand, of course, is whether the authors of the Statement of Fundamental Truths intended to allow for
non-physi- cal
signs
of
Spirit baptism prior
to the “initial
physical sign”
of
speak- ing
with other
tongues.28
I suspect that
they did,
for
why
else would the
qualifier “physical”
have been included in the statement? For instance, could a person
receive an internal witness of the
Spirit
con- firming
his or her
Spirit baptism prior
to
manifesting
the outward evi- dence of
tongues?29
baptism.
281t is evident that some early Pentecostals allowed for non-physical signs of
Either A. S.
Spirit
Copley or J. Roswell Flower
the words in 1910:
penned following
“[God] deals with souls in His own sovereign way.
Let us not interfere with Him.
Certainly, the voice of the Word and Spirit within are more sure than the without. When God
of tongues speaks within, we
do well
sign
to leave hands off.” [Emphasis added.]
For further discussion of this quote, see note 30 below. 29The Holiness movement had taught many that greater and deeper experiences of God were available to those believers who
sought
God for such
were for a “second blessing” called “the baptism in the
experiences. Consequently, many
Holy
Ghost”-identified as sanctification hungry
by some and as an empowering for witness by
others. When someone would
experience exceptional “blessing”
at the altar of prayer,
it was difficult not to attach
theological significance to this phenomenon. When such a blessing would precede speaking in
tongues, it is not surprising that sometimes the affected
person would view the arrival of this “blessing” rather than when
he or she first began to speak in tongues as
marking Assemblies of
the moment of his or her have
Spirit baptism.
Nor is it
surprising
that the
fledgling
God to
been willing to
appears
accept the Pentecostal claims of such people once they had also spoken
in
An illustration of this tongues.
early flexibility may be found in E. N. Bell’s response to a query
from a reader of the Evangel: “I have been wonderfully blessed and feel the Spirit
within, and feel that I have the baptism, but have not yet spoken in Have I
tongues.
the baptism as
Bell “God knows them that are His, but we do not
yet?”
responded:
no man is authorized to answer
always know even this. So with the baptism,
certainly for others. After God, you are the one most interested. In cases similar to yours some the Spirit came and
stayed continuously
until a
day,
three
days
or three weeks after testify broke out speaking in tongues. I see no reason to doubt such testimony. But in other cases they where they thought they had Him, His presence disappeared and they seemed just the same as before their blessing. I advise against grieving the Spirit by denying His also advise against stopping short of God’s
presence
when you feel it, rather rejoice, believe, praise and bless God for it. But I
sign, against being so easily satisfied. With praise press on for the fullness.” See E. N. Bell, “Questions and Answers [414],” Christian Evangel, 1 June 1918, 9.
The generous spirit evident in Bell’s
that Bell minimized the
response should not be misconstrued to sug- gest importance of speaking in tongues as the initial physical sign
of baptism in the Holy Spirit. He begins a tract entitled The Baptism with the Spirit (Springfield,
MO: Gospel Publishing House, n.d.) by stating that “The baptism in the Holy Spirit [is] accompanied now, as in Bible times,
always
with the
speaking in other tongues….” He even asserts his own view that the
pattern by which the is
Spirit poured out in the Book of Acts Spirit
and speaking in
suggests
an “immediate connection” between baptism tongues.
Nevertheless, as his “Questions and Answers”
10
185
It is a characteristic of doctrinal statements that
they
are
always both inclusive and exclusive at the same time. Whenever a standard is set,
it serves as a sort of
ideological perimeter fence,
which identifies what is alien and
provides protection
from
it, and also marks off on the inside a range of beliefs and/or behaviors which is considered
accept- able. The
phrase
“initial
physical sign”
strikes me as
just
such a “perimeter
fence.” It attributes a
unique
status to
tongues
as an out- wardly
visible identifier of
Spirit baptism,
useful for
community judg- ments. Those who
deny
that
tongues provide
evidence of
baptism
in the
Spirit
are excluded from Pentecostal
orthodoxy.
On the other hand, the
phrase
“initial
physical
evidence” allows for a wide
variety
of
pri- vate
experience.
Thus someone such as J. Roswell
Flower,
who claimed to have been
baptized
in the
Spirit
weeks before first
speaking in
tongues,3°
fell within the
standard, just
as did those whose
only
speaking speaking
response indicates, a claim of some separation in time between Spirit baptism and in
tongues was neither
nor
especially problematic.
Moreover,
in tongues marks the “fullness” of surprising
(=”full consummation of’?) Spirit bap- tism and appears to complete a
30pver the
process.
years Flower, who served as General from Secretary of the Assemblies from 1914 to 1916 and again 1935 to 1959 and as Missions Secretary from 1919 to 1925, probably had as an influence on the Assemblies of God as any single per- son. His account “How I Received the great
Baptism in the Holy Spirit” was first in the Pentecostal in 1933 and then in the with the addition of published a few details in 1952. More than two decades Evangel
again after his death Evangel an
abridged version of this article, which conveniently omitted the controversial portions, was again lished in the Pentecostal in 1993. A of the 1933 version also
pub-
Evangel reprint appeared in Bread of Life in 1972.
In his article, Flower maintains that it is important to claim one’s baptism on the basis of faith and that the evidence of will soon follow. He
reports repeated- ly
that he claimed to be
baptized
in the tongues
Spirit although he had not yet spoken in As Frank Macchia has
tongues. pointed out in private correspondence, the 1933 ver- sion
suggests that a gap of at least two months separated Flower’s Spirit baptism from the first time that he
spoke in tongues.
Flower
the exact of this
may at times have been inconsistent when describing
length gap, however, since Prof. James Allen of North Central Bible College remembers a course taught by Flower in 1954 at Central Bible Institute in which Flower stated that he was baptized in the Spirit and two weeks later first spoke in tongues. The basic point of the testimony given in class was the same as his written testimony, however.
Even in the mid-1950s this testimony was considered controversial. Allen remem- bers students remarking that only someone like J. Roswell Flower could
like that. It should be
kept
in mind
though
that Flower’s tes- get away with saying something
had not been too controversial to reprint in 1952 and that he continued to serve as General Secretary until 1959. Flower’s involvement in the leadership of the timony
Assemblies began when he was only 26 years of age and his values had been formed by
association with an earlier than most of the AG leaders in the 1950s. See J. Roswell Flower, “How I Received the generation
Baptism in the Holy Spirit,” Pentecostal Evangel,
21 January 1933, 2-3; 28 January 1933, 6-7;
reprinted with additions, 7 September 1952, 5-7;
14 September 1952, 5, 12-13; abridgment of the 1933 article
11
186
assurance of baptism in the
Spirit, considering
all
possibilities
whether physical
or
non-physical,
was evidential
tongues.
While the founders of the Assemblies of God did not
simply
build their
theology
on
experience-although
this claim is often
they
often did search the
Scriptures
in order to make sense of their
alleged-
own experience.
Each had his or her own
testimony
of divine encounter, and
certainly
the details of these testimonies differed
widely. By
mak- ing
claims
only
about “the initial
physical
evidence” of
baptism
in the Spirit,
the founders not
only
were sensitive to the biblical evidence but also
wisely
avoided the maelstrom of
needing
to evaluate the
validity of various
subjective religious experiences.
This lack of
physical
vali- dation had been one of the difficulties associated with the
teaching
of an
experience
of entire sanctification as a second definite work of grace.
When
gathered
at a church
altar,
how could
anyone
know whether someone’s claim to an
experience
of entire sanctification was valid or not?
The
Silencing Sign
While for Kerr
tongues
were the “initial
physical sign”
of
Spirit baptism, tongues
were not its
only sign. If,
as
already
mentioned, the purpose
of
Spirit baptism
was
“power
for service,” “revelation of the things
of
God,”
and the
ability
to live “a victorious
life,”
then over time the
signs
of this
baptism
could
hardly
be limited to speaking in tongues.
Recognizing
that some
mistakenly
believed the Pentecostal mes- sage
to consist
exclusively
of enthusiasm for
glossolalia,
Kerr insisted – -..p ,–
reprinted, 18 July 1993, 18-20.
Also see the reprint of the 1933 article in Bread of Life,
October 1972, 5-6, 10-13.
in 1910 the spirit of Flower’s testimony seems to be reflected in some unti- tled editorial remarks published in The Pentecost.
Already
had
By this time Flower had left Kansas City and A. S. Copley
replaced him as Editor of The Pentecost.
Flower had assumed Copley’s old role as Associate Editor. While the following remarks can- not be attributed definitively either to Flower or to Copley, they are nevertheless wor-
of note:
thy
“Faith holds the answer. Faith only pleases God. Believe you do receive and God for the
praise
baptism.
Cease teasing and coaxing God. Praise Him and tongues will
follow. Praise Him for the presence of the and steadfastly believe Him for the
invariably
new
tongue.
For it is written that the new Holy Spirit
tongue shall follow them that believe.
(Mark 16:17.)
Dear workers, if a soul has truly believed God for the
baptism,
let us not discour- age
that one
by telling
him that he has not received the baptism simply because he has not spoken in another language. Let us not assume the place of God. He deals with souls in His own sovereign way. Let us not interfere with Him.
Certainly, the voice of the Word and Spirit within are more sure than the sign of tongues without. When God speaks within, we do well to leave hands off.” See “Untitled Remarks,” The Pentecost, 1 April 1910, 4.
12
187
that it was much more. He claims: “…we can
consistently say
that ‘tongues
are not the
only sign
of the
baptism,’
and
yet
be just as con- sistent in
saying
that
‘tongues
are the
sign
of the
baptism.”’31
His evi- dence is drawn from Acts 10:44-48, the account of the
reception
of the Spirit by gentiles
at the house of Cornelius:
… “they (the believers) spake
in tongues and magnified God.” The
character and office of
pecu-
liarly striking tongues is at once recognized by “those
of the circumcision” and Peter. For
clusive evidence of the “like
they at once received this “sign” as con-
gift” of the Spirit having been given to the “uncircumcision” as to the “circumcision.” This
is given with
such and
recognition
promptness credence, and with such artlessness and simplicity that
one can scarcely escape the conclusion that at this period in the history of
the Pentecostal movement of the New Testament,
been accepted without
controversy
as “the
tongues as “a sign” had
(silencing) sign” of all disputes
touching
the promise, “I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh.,,32 Whatever other
signs
of Spirit baptism might be
offered, only
one
sign provides
conclusive evidence to other believers, and this
sign
is
speak- ing
in
tongues.
Some
may
claim to have been
baptized
in the
Holy Spirit,
but
only
when
tongues
serve as evidence will the
question
be settled
conclusively.
Thus
tongues
are “the
silencing sign.”
In this
passage
Kerr does not state
categorically
that if one has not spoken
in
tongues
he or she has not been
baptized
in the
Spirit,
but in other
passages
he seems almost to approach this
position.
For
instance, in another discussion of the Cornelius
story,
Kerr
says:
“They
of the circumcision were astonished BECAUSE THAT ON THE
GENTILES ALSO WAS POURED OUT THE GIFT OF THE HOLY
GHOST. FOR THEY HEARD THEM SPEAK WITH TONGUES AND
MAGNIFY GOD.”
That statement says to me that the SIGN OF TONGUES WAS THE ACCEPTED EVIDENCE OF THE BAPTISM, among all the disciples and
to that time; that they were ENTIRELY FAMILIAR WITH THAT SIGN; that it was always present; that
apostles up
in
they were not astonished when they
heard anyone speaking
tongues, but that God had poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit on the Gentiles. [CAPITALS indicate Kerr’s emphasis; italics indicate emphasis added.]33
Here
tongues
serve as an
apostolic
litmus test.
Speaking
in
tongues
is evidence of
Spirit baptism;
lack of such evidence
suggests
that
Spirit baptism
has not occurred.
Spirit baptism
evidenced
by speaking
in tongues
is the
pattern
recorded in the Book of Acts, so
apparently
this
31 Kerr, “‘The,’ ‘A,’ or ‘An’-Which?,”
7. 32Kerr, “‘The,’ ‘A,’
or ‘An’-Which?,” 7. 33Kerr, “Bible Evidence,” 3.
13
188
sign
was the universal
pattern
in the
Apostolic Age. Consequently,
this experience
of evidential
tongues
should be the
present pattern
as well.
A
Concluding Synthesis
But how can Kerr
portray speaking
in
tongues
as a litmus test of Spirit baptism given
what he has said elsewhere? He has
portrayed
evi- dential
tongues
as the consummation of a process. Tongues “follow” baptism
in the
Spirit. Tongues
are the first physical
sign
of
Spirit bap- tism, but
possibly
not the first
sign
when
“spiritual signs”
are taken into account. How can
they
then serve as a litmus test? Because sooner or later
they always
occur.
Kerr never
attempted
to resolve in print some of the tensions inher- ent in his
thought.
Nevertheless,
some conclusions are
possible.
Kerr can envision someone
baptized
in the
Spirit
who has not
yet spoken
in tongues,
but he cannot envision this situation on a long-term or perma- nent basis.
Logically, tongues
are
subsequent
to Spirit baptism and
per- haps
in the
very
short-term
they
are
temporally subsequent
as
well, but tongues
and
Spirit baptism
are as connected as
throwing
a ball
up in the air and
having
it come down. If a person is baptized in the
Spirit,
then he or she will
certainly speak
in
tongues,
for
tongues
are
“always pre- sent” when someone is
baptized
in the
Spirit.
Yet there is
certainly doubt about whether Kerr would have been comfortable with
saying,
as does the Assemblies of God
position paper
mentioned
above,
that “[evidential tongues] always
occurred at the
very
time the believers were
baptized
in the
Spirit
and not on some future occasion.”
Instead,
he would almost
certainly
have
agreed
with the broader view, common among early Pentecostals,
and so
ably expressed
in 1909
by
J. O. Lehman in The Pentecostal, a paper edited
by
J. Roswell Flower:
Now, while we believe according to the written word that all those who are baptized
with the Holy Spirit will either at the time of their baptism or shortly afterwards speak
in tongues, yet we must with great care and humil- ity
teach this truth not too dogmatically or we shall be before we are aware, preaching tongues
and thereby obscure the Christ. [emphasis added]34
Like
Kerr,
Lehman is concerned that the true
purpose
and
power
of the Pentecostal
experience
not be lost
through
undue
emphasis
on tongues. Tongues
must never detract from Jesus the
Baptizer,
and
34J. O. Lehman, “The Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit,” The Pentecost, 1 November 1909, 2.
Special thanks are due Wayne Warner of the Flower Pentecostal Heritage
Center for directing my attention to this article and to others published in The Pentecost.
–
14
189
tongues
must never overshadow the
transforming presence
of the
Spirit which endues the believer with new
power.
More
germane
to the
present
discussion, however, is Lehman’s
sug- gestion
that
tongues might
either
accompany
or follow
Spirit baptism. Tongues
are a
sign
of what God has
done,
not a
sign
of what He is doing
at that
precise
moment. As the evidence
presented
above
sug- gests,
Kerr’s view
may
not have been much different from this one
sug- gested by
Lehman.
Clearly,
D. W. Kerr
represents
an early stage in the
development
of Pentecostalism, a
period
when there was
great
fear of creedalism and when
theological
formulations were characterized
by greater fluidity than is characteristic
today.
In some
ways
Kerr’s discussions are unso- phisticated
and rather
imprecise. Still,
he cast a monumental shadow across the Assemblies of God with his
churchmanship,
his involvement in the
training
of
ministers,
and
perhaps
most of all
through
his
leading role in the initial
production
of the Assemblies of God’s Statement of Fundamental Truths.
Certainly
a portion of Kerr’s
legacy
is his endur- ing
witness to a seminal
period when,
within the context of a
strong commitment to the Pentecostal
distinctives,
a great deal of
theological variety
was tolerated. Not
every aspect
of Pentecostalism in the teens and twenties was
salutary,
but
certainly
Kerr’s commitment to biblical truth melded to a generous spirit is in the best tradition of Pentecost.
15
Anonymous
Absolutely false. The Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts as He wills and, as it is written, not all speak in tongues.
The OP has no exegetical foundation. Paul clearly explained to the Corinthians that the purpose of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel, warning of pending judgment which came in AD70. The purpose of tongues was fulfilled and tongues ceased.
No one has spoken in biblical tongues since the first century, but multitudes are being deceived, tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess ACTS 2 says others ways – they spoke tongues when the HS came upon them initially – just the BIBLE
Anonymous
Tongues were a sign to unbelieving Israel, warning of pending judgment which came in AD70.
Tongues ceased in the first century.
Anonymous
Link Hudson already explained to Christopher Lockhart how Duane L Burgess is plain wrong on this one John Mushenhouse Neil Steven Lawrence
Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1886219345096345&set=p.1886219345096345&type=3
Anonymous
MANY Pentecostals do NOT believe this no more Junior Beasley
Some say they got the Holy Ghost with NO tongues
other say they have other signs but NOT tongues
then there is the ones who could care less about HSB
they state they dont need it to go to heaven
I myself wouldnt go to the store without the HS
then there is the MOST confused of them all group
Who claims believers cant ever never backslide
which basically goes against entire sanctification
which was the holiness foundation of HSB
AS Dr Melvin Harter has already explained
Anonymous
RT Junior Beasley How many here believe you must have the the evidence of speaking in unknown tongues to have the Baptism of the Holy Ghost?
Anonymous
Troy Day I do and I understand the the infilling and the baptism are Two different things
Anonymous
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins
Anonymous
We see in JOHN 20:22 the Disciples were Regenerated- Saved when Jesus Breathed on them and said; “Receive The Holy Spirit” this was the “initial” Filling or baptism “Of” the Holy Spirit. What we see in Acts 2 is The Baptism “IN” The Holy Spirit with the evidence of Speaking in Tongues. Then we see in ACTS 8,9,10,11, 19, 1COR 14 that they ALL Spoke in Tongues when baptized in the Holy Spirit. “they ALL spoke” not just some of them.
Anonymous
Joseph Dunbar Regenerated
did JESUS use that word
Or you put it in jn 20?
Anonymous
Troy Day it’s what took place. The term used to describe for that is “regenerated”. “They were all “filled” with the Holy Spirit”
This is the definition of regenerstion.
Anonymous
Joseph Dunbar it’s what took place. based on WHAT ?
Jesus never said be ye regenerated in Jn 20
Anonymous
Troy Day being filled with the Holy Spirit IS Regenerated . Seriously? How are you regenerated? The Holy Spirit “fills” you.
What happens when the Holy Spirit “fills” you? You’re Regenerated.
It is gospel 101 grasshopper
Anonymous
Troy Day it’s like “Trinity”? The word is not found in the Bible. But the formula for Trinity is in the Bible and it’s called “Trinity” – the two are one and the same.
Anonymous
When Christ was crucified, God put his plans for ethnic national Israel temporarily “on hold” (see, for example, Rom. 9-11) and the Gospel transitioned to the Gentiles.
At Pentecost prophecy was fulfilled as the Israelites heard God speak to them in men of other tongues. Pentecost initiated the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus promised. And the purpose, as Jesus had declared, was that the Holy Spirit would “testify of me.”
Many, instead, have focused on spiritual gifts and experience, just like the carnal Corinthian believers, instead of focusing on Christ.
Also, Paul clearly exhorted the Corinthian church, which was abusing spiritual gifts, that tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel, warning of pending judgment. That judgment came in AD70 and the purpose of tongues was completed. No one has spoken in biblical tongues since the first century.
OP is a typical error of aberrant Pentecostal theology, failing II Tim. 2:15.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/paul-washer-sinners-prayer-is-sending-people-to-hell/
Anonymous
https://youtu.be/Agj_GGThmb8?si=Wgu9ZoqrB8SXm191
Anonymous
Byron Meko Lorenz Frank https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/paul-washer-sinners-prayer-is-sending-people-to-hell/
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I have to agree that very little logic is being posted here and even less theology proper. Most folks wouldn’t know the Holy Ghost baptism from hole in the wall. Except if the early American Pentecostals really got it wrong, most folks posting in this chat are not really Pentecostal one little bit Junior Beasley including
Anonymous
Troy Day sir I am a Pentecostal. It’s not my fault you claim to be a leader and don’t know the history of the church or the significance of Kansas in this stance.
You’d make a good hardshell Baptist.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley I dont claim to be a leader but I do know the history of Pentecostal movement in America even before Kansas much better the most folks since it was my PhD in historical theology dissertation 🙂 HOWEVER your Baptist stance of OSAS is neither holiness nor Pentecostal You have expressed typical calvinistic ideas which have nothing to do with our movement Philip Williams also had a Pentecostal grandma and will tell ya that none of them were oSAS like you
Anonymous
Troy Day So now that you taken time to google the answer tell me how this answer lays in Kansas. Or have you not Google it yet.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley I dont have a need to use google
But you may want to freshen up HOW
Parham was against cavlinism
Preached openly ppl could fall off grace and go to hell
Confirmed entire sanctification as 2nd work of grace
And established tongues as HBS ONLY initial evidence
while you claim to be Pentecostal but dont believe ANY of the above https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/what-is-meant-by-the-term-full-gospel-in-pentecostal-theology/
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m not a calvinist so you can’t threaten me
But I’m glad you goggles the answer now you can go back and recant how I was theologically wrong.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley hey do you have something to say theologically or you are on your way out? Apart from empty talk I have not seen you present ANY Bible at all – give us your non-Pentecostal interpretation of Kansas and be done Meanwhile read this great book by our own David Willaim Faupel https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-everlasting-gospel-the-significance-of-eschatology-in-the-development/
Anonymous
Troy Day I believe all of it. And I know it is the churches position on the subject but not a core belief, thays why they are position papers.
I agree on all of it but not on the fact sin can separate you from God.
It can’t we all sin daily even you there is none perfect.
I also believe the Old song The Blood will Never Loose its Power.
And there is Power Power wonder working Power in the Blood of the Lamb, I also know that since you still won’t study the Blood covenant cut in Gen 15-17 between the Father and the son you can never relate. The promises that they amse that day are so powerful but you’ll have to chase it all the way back to Hebrew History and the First Blood Covenant. But your to lazy to do that. After even given you a link to a church approved book that will paraphrase much of it.. lol don’t tell me what you know if your not willing to learn it to begin with.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley how do you believe ALL of it when you dont believe ppl can fall off grace and backslide lil buddy?
Anonymous
Troy Day the reason the stance is in the position and not in the fundamental beliefs is because all you can do is argue both ways.
And the churches stance is what of you don’t believe this way then we urge u not to teach it for the sake of unity and I’m paraphrasing
Anonymous
Junior Beasley what stance? What do you know about stances and stanza ?
Anonymous
Troy Day
Which ever one it was my post or the post you drug me to by naming me one of them I made a stance on the the baptism and gifts.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley not sure what you are talking about
I have not seen ANY theological stance
just postures and showmanship
Make you final stance again – this time theologically
Anonymous
Troy Day
8. THE INITIAL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE OF THE BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
The baptism of believers in the Holy Spirit is witnessed by the initial physical sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit of God gives them utterance.
Acts 2:4 [KJV/NIV]
The speaking in tongues in this instance is the same in essence as the gift of tongues, but is different in purpose and use.
1 Corinthians 12:4-10 [KJV/NIV]
1 Corinthians 12:28 [KJV/NIV]
Anonymous
Junior Beasley sounds like a paper I authored long ago
Anonymous
doubt you were alive when the 16 fundamental s were authored
Anonymous
Junior Beasley I knew Parham’s daughter in law. We discussed Kansas, Houston, Chicago, Zion and LA many times.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse well Philip Williams knew Parham’s someone too and his very Pentecostal grannie as well So did Bishop Bernie L Wade who wrote the book on it Terry Wiles authored Resolution 16 for the fundamentals and being 4th gen AG preacher I probably have some great uncle who was there when they put together the 16 fund.
ZION was where they crossed paths with AJ Tomlinson perhaps @ one time or a bit later in time. Then DAKE too frequented ZION for one reason or another …
Anonymous
Troy Day it is true that the A/G believes that the Initial Biblical evidence of Speaking in Tongues is the evidence of reception of the outpouring of power from on high.
This is canonized in the 16 fundamentals of faith and has been taught regularly since before 1947 in AG churches.
Traditionally the AG embraces the possibility of backsliding.
Shank, authored a definitive theological book arguing against the commonly called “Once Saved Always Saved” doctrine that has not, to this day, been successfully challenged by any who embrace the Calvinistic teaching.
So, the arguments continue.
I believe and embrace the initial evidence teaching and am happy to have pressed through to its reception early in ministry and regularly depend on the “clothing of the Holy Spirit” for the power that enables life and service to God and man.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse
I’m glad you did them you know it’s the initial physical evidence.
You know it was a class discussion and the class under his tutelage agreed. But I’m correct you didn’t interview him. You don’t look that old.
And so you have now interviewed his daughter n law and his niece is that correct? But not him so all we have for sure is what the man penned, is that correct? Or are you making statement to try to relay your significance.
I know alot of ppl to but being raised on a farm I’m not in the habit of throwing their name around or hiding behind their skirts.
Do you have a point to make besides you met them once I’m assuming.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley Junior can you prove one thing that you say by scripture. I really doubt if you can because you would have posted scripture to shut me up. Instead, you are reduced to being a bully with a personal attack. Junior do you study the Bible?
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse
Already did go back and snd chech the two threads we been texting on.
Anonymous
Acts 10:45,46
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Gary Edgar yes? tell us more
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m sure you know the scripture , I was raised in Pentecostal church , I have always heard : with the evidence of speaking in tongues : those verses seem like evidence to me and Acts chapter 19 : First Corinthians 14:21-27 , there are different kinds of tongues , some for messages when one interprets and sometime just speaks to God or of the wonderful works of God , I don’t believe tongues are obsolete ; God never reneges or fails to fulfill his promises John 14:26 and previous verses ; Isaiah 28:12 I know he is speaking to Israel but we have been grafted in so we are part of Israel Joel 2:28,29 : Zechariah 12:10 Romans 11: 26-29 last two not necessarily about tongues , Just got carried away thinking about Israel and the church , give me mercy and Grace 😁🙏
Anonymous
Gary Edgar do you differ b/w initial evidence and gift of tongues with interpretation
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Troy Day yes, but I believe God can give message of to anyone at anytime he chooses but true message will have another interpret , I may have read contrary to what I’m about to say , but I’m not sure or confident of one that interprets his own tongue , I believe another should interpret ? 🤷♂️😀
Anonymous
Gary Edgar very well very well
Anonymous
Troy Day Do you agree with me ?
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Gary Edgar Yes initial evidence and the gift from 1 Cor 14 – essential doctrines for all of us Pentecostals; as emerging from holiness movement and 2nd work of grace
Anonymous
Troy Day Wow can’t believe some of comments, people getting upset over doctrine, just follow Apostles doctrine ,Ephesians 2:20-22 / 2 Timothy 2:24-26 I think the servant of the Lord must not strive but be gentle unto all men , apt to teach patient ; need to lend an ear to next 2 verses also🙏
Anonymous
YOU WIN Junior Beasley you are the greatest Pentecostal knower among them all Even the grandma of Philip Williams didnt know as much Pentecost as you and she was closer to Azusa and Kansas than anyone else and may have even handled the serpent @ 1 time
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse what are you gonna do now with such a GREAT Pentecostal in the group who surpasses all others 🙂
Anonymous
Troy Day what are you talking g about you ppl have attacked me all day I’ve been rebutting but when I ask a question you certainly knkw how to twist it or change subjects. You should join a Baptist apologetics group you’d be good at it.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley naah you know things about Kansas even Bishop Bernie L Wade dont know yet and we just wanted you to share from your deep wisdom spirit-knowledge
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Troy Day
You know the answer you all went and Googled it.
Anonymous
Troy Day well I am still waiting for him to prove initial evidence by the bible and not hearsay. Most of us believe in tongues. Many of us believe that it is the initial evidence. The thing is if we ae going to get our truth across to others, we need to show biblical evidence. Junior Beasley doesn’t understand that as well as many others. Junior’s arguments are really detriment to Pentecostalism. His lack of understanding is just confirmed by his failure to understand the simple question – Prove it by the bible.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse yeah one trick pony is not even a broken clock right twice a day. Ppl need to bypass their ignorance and begin conversing as grown ups. There are still things facts deviations in Pentecostal history and theology we need to reason and discuss NOT given into infantile spirits from calvinator forums not even knowing what OSAS is all about
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John Mushenhouse I posted it as answer o. ones question if not yours the read the two threads and do try to keep up.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley you posted out of context scriptures that had nothing to do with the question. They addressed tongues, but not as the initial evidence. Please try to understand what you say or try this Junior – Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace; When he shuts his lips, he is considered perceptive. Proverbs 17:28
Anonymous
I see you pulled another to try to prove your point ss vain as point as it is and this scripture is out of context in the subject at hand. Do you have scripture to prove it us nit now stop twisting and turning.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley NO need to insult ppl just cause you are out of ammo. Please discuss THEOLOGY or be gone …
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Troy Day I’ll tell you like I told him if all you have us a disagreement and only a personal opinion go on
Anonymous
I disagree. (With respect) In fact the modern day definition of “Baptism of the Holy Ghost” didn’t come about until the Azusa street revivals, however I’m open to correction.
Anonymous
Mark Aponte read Matthew 3:11; like 3:16 , should read the book of Acts
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Gary Edgar thank you brother. I’m a former Pentecostal. Im familiar with these passages.
The book of Acts is my favorite. I love church history.
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ppl now drink booze and speak in tongues? John Mushenhouse
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Troy Day I am afraid that is the trend. We must pray for a holiness revival. First we need to teach using the bible what scriptural holiness is.
Anonymous
Troy Day Here I go again , jumping in I dare say there will be no drunken tongue talking in heaven no scripture , how can you live like the devil and go home to live with God , well I can’t help it , here is a scripture 1 Corinthians 6:9,10
Anonymous
Gary Edgar I dare you say that
AND I will second it
and John Mushenhouse will prove it
BUT so many love the taste of drinking they just cant stop but spill it in our group here
Anonymous
I don’t understand your reply 🤷♂️I just meant I don’t believe there will be alcohol drunks in heaven 1 Corinthians 6:9,10
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Gary Edgar You need to pray in the Spirit for understanding
Anonymous
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