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Tony Conger | PentecostalTheology.com
Those who believe Jesus was always the Son let me ask you…was he always Lord and Christ?
Acts: 2. 34. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35. Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. – Bible Offline
Varnel Watson
Was God the Father always God the Father?
Tony Conger
Lol that speaks too his unchanging character. Nice try though. Please expound given scripture. And He was only eternally the FATHER IF he created the Son in eternity past. And I don’t believe the word was created.
Varnel Watson
Nope.Nothing about character in the verse. Actually the text speaks directly to your question. Jesus (The sent Son of God) does not change + the Christ (anointed, Messiah) does never change. If Jesus does not change the Christ does not either. Plain and simple just like the Bible puts it.
Ricky Grimsley
Troy Day when you quote hebrews 13:8 and then say it isnt about character….what was it about? Did the word always have a human body? He now reigns as a resurrected “man” correct?
Tony Conger
Then when did he make him “Lord and Christ”?
Tony Conger
Revelation: 1. 18. I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. – Bible Offline
That’s kinda a big change
Varnel Watson
Tony Conger needs to answer: Was God the Father always God the Father?
Tony Conger
I just did. Your turn
Tony Conger
When did the FATHER “make him both Lord and Christ” if he always was both
Varnel Watson
So does your answer mean God the Father was always God the Father or not?
Varnel Watson
Rico Hero why would you say this is a Catholic doctrine when the Early Church fathers of the church believed – martyrs and all? David Levandusky http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-jesus-the-eternal-son-of-god/
Rico Hero
Its not in the Apostolic creed. It is in the Athanasian Creed–which is Catholic dogma
Rico Hero
Its not in the Apostolic creed. It is in the Athanasian Creed–which is Catholic dogma.The book argues eternal sonship along the lines of the Athanasian Creed. I havent read all of this book but I bet it alegorizes ps 2 to get the desired effect
David Levandusky
Yes He was. If He was called the Lamb of God from before the foundation of the world then He was also the Son of God before the foundation of the world. In fulfilling prophecy The Lamb was the Son of God. I fyou deny Jesus being called the Lamb of God before Creation then you will deny Him being called the Son of God. If He was the Lamb of God before the creation of the world then He was the Son of God who created all things by the word of His power. John chapter 1. “Hebrews ch 1 “But unto the Son he saith “Thy throne God is forever.”
Rico Hero
Re: If He was called the Lamb of God from before the foundation of the world then He was also the Son of God before the foundation of the world. In fulfilling prophecy
Hello David Levandusky
I would agree with you and with the Catholic Athanasian creed on eternal Sonship if it wasnt for prophecy that make it clear the second person of the Trinity became the Son of God on a certain day, not that he was a son from eternity.
Psalm 2:I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
Acts 13:33this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,
“‘You are my Son,
today I have begotten you.’
This happened on a certain day, not in eternity
Hebrews 1;5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”?
Or again,
“I will be to him a father,
and he shall be to me a son”?
It is in light of these scriptures (above) by different divinely inspired witnesses the early Church accepted the day when Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit , born of the virgin Mary and said so in the Apostles creed:
snip
“…Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary ..”
Varnel Watson
This is good discussion Rico Hero it’s NOT a Catholic doctrine. The early church fathers martyrs of the church believed it and confessed it. It is not strictly Augustinian and Athanasius was no Catholic either. It is what the apostles believed – Jesus the only begotten Eternal Son from the creation. It’s the only apostolic way. I’ve agreed with Link Hudson before that on this one Dake is dead wrong. I’ve also disagreed with Link that Heiser’s deviation with extra-Biblical sources which claims 70 sons of God ie council of the Most High borders heretical dualism. The Truth is Jesus the One and Only begotten Son from the beginning Even Ricky Grimsley will agree to that if he still uses FB
Link Hudson
I recall Heisler consider Jesus to being begotten, unlike the ‘sons of God’ in certain passages in the Old Testament, which he believes were given charge over nations in connection with the tower of Babel incident.
But using ‘Catholic’ without ‘Roman’ the way you do here is a bit confusing if you are talking about historical figures. The apostle’s creed confesses that there is one ‘catholic’–as in universal– church.
Varnel Watson
True – I should have said Roman Catholic as it is understood Heizer claims only begotten out of 70 created and appointed over different parts of the earth – it is a FAR reach if we only read the Bible – his use of extra-Biblical sources touches on dualism
Rico Hero
Re: it’s NOT a Catholic doctrine.
Hello Troy Day
snip
Athanasian Creed
CHRISTIANITY
WRITTEN BY: The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica
See Article History
Alternative Title: Quicumque vult
Athanasian Creed, also called Quicumque Vult (from the opening words in Latin), a Christian profession of faith in about 40 verses. It is regarded as authoritative in the Roman Catholic and some Protestant churches. It has two sections, one dealing with the Trinity and the other with the Incarnation; and it begins and ends with stern warnings that unswerving adherence to such truths is indispensable to salvation. The virulence of these damnatory clauses has led some critics, especially in the Anglican churches, to secure restriction or abandonment of the use of the creed.
A Latin document composed in the Western Church, the creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (died 373) but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. Many authors have been suggested, but no definite conclusions have been reached. In 1940 the lost Excerpta of Vincent of Lérins (flourished 440) was discovered, and this work contains much of the language of the creed. Thus, either Vincent or an admirer of his has been considered the possible author.
The earliest known copy of the creed was included as a prefix to a collection of homilies by Caesarius of Arles (died 542). The creed’s influence seems to have been primarily in southern France and Spain in the 6th and 7th centuries. It was used in the liturgy of the church in Germany in the 9th century and somewhat later in Rome.
end snip
Re : on this one Dake is dead wrong
I cant see how one can get around the scriptures like Psalm 2:7 without allegorizing the scripture
Re: Ricky
He quit FB posting back in October. He was disillusioned by partisan views
Varnel Watson
I’ve explained Ps 2 7 for Ricky and could do it again if you need me to
I should have said Roman Catholic as Link Hudson advised and not just Catholic. Athanasius is Eastern Orthodox
Rico Hero
Troy Day You lost me at “It is what the apostles believed – Jesus the only begotten Eternal Son from the creation. It’s the only apostolic way. ” . Feel free to quote apostles for me and yeah, explain Ps.2:7.
Steve Losee
He is and was eternally all those thing, but it’s BECAUSE of the resurrection (Acts 13:32-34).
Varnel Watson
Rico Hero I am not quite following You’ve read this discussions before OR you need me to repost the Link for you again?
Rico Hero
Troy Day You wrote :The early church fathers martyrs of the church believed it and confessed it. It is not strictly Augustinian ….It is what the apostles believed – Jesus the only begotten Eternal Son from the creation. It’s the only apostolic way. ”
Rico:
Just curious what you mean by “it was what the apostles believed Jesus the only begotten Eternal Son from creation? Which Apostles are you talking about? What they say?
You also said : I’ve explained Ps 2 7 for Ricky and could do it again if you need me to .
Rico:
sure, go ahead and explain Ps.2:7
Varnel Watson
Well Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever SO is His sonship – the same does not change like some propose Psalm 2 however is the only scripture quoted with the theory that Jesus Christ is eternal son. It is important for us to understand that Psalm 2 says exactly the opposite IF the kings are ordered to kiss the Son some 1000 yrs before He was incarnate. That alone makes Jesus Christ the ETERNAL Son of God
Isara Mo
Tricky question.
John 1:1 -3 in the beginning was the WORD ….He was with God…and was God.
When Peter was addressing the Jews immediately after Pentecost, he said this ” God has MADE this Jesus Lord and Saviour…”
In Hebrews(1:6?) there is a verse which says ” when God brings into the world his FIRST BORN……He says let all angels worship him”
All.the foregoing are states of being:
The Word
God
Lord
Saviou
Son…
John 1:14 The WORD was made flesh…or the Word became flesh.
What is or was the state of being of the Word before He became flesh?..Spiritual?
Physical? Or both?
In John 3:16 God gave the world His only BEGOTTEN SON…
God didnt give us the WORD but the word made flesh…
Was the Son called Jesus before He became flesh or was He always called Jesus before eternity..
When you read Philippians 2:9 the Bible says ….THEREFORE(because of the preceding explanation….ie Jesus humilty unto death)…THEREFORE GOD GAVE HIM A NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES…
Was Jesus given this name because of the finished work on the cross?
But i can surmise that to God Jesus was the Son eternally because at Jordan at his baptism God said.” THIS IS MY BELOVED SON WITH WHOM I AM PLEASED”
To humanity (to us)Jesus was the Son of God when he was manifest in flesh…
However I don’t have a direct Yes or No answer to your question….but an assumption only
Rico Hero
Troy Day:
Well Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever SO is His sonship – the same does not change like some propose Psalm 2 however is the only scripture quoted with the theory that Jesus Christ is eternal son. It is important for us to understand that Psalm 2 says exactly the opposite IF the kings are ordered to kiss the Son some 1000 yrs before He was incarnate. That alone makes Jesus Christ the ETERNAL Son of God
Rico:
Interesting theory , Troy. Indeed, Jesus the Christ, is the same yesterday and today and forever going forward in time as the Son of God, but that was not the case before his incarnation. Prior to His incarnation, the second person in the Trinity had a spirit body that could not die and was not begotten. His spirit body was just like the Fathers and the Holy Spirits. The second person in the Trinity we now know as Jesus the Christ , emptied himself so to be made human flesh that can die and pay for our sins. It was at this time he became the Son of God
In Psalm 2, we have the prediction as to when the second person in the Trinity would be made flesh and a son–
Psalm 2:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 “I will declare the [a]decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
“Today” could not have been the day of this prediction ( Ps2:7)was written, (nor does today mean eternity). Therefore the kings and rulers in Psalm 2:12 could not have kissed the Son and is a future prediction. Kings and rulers will kiss the Son after the second advent.
Isaiah 66:22-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.
Varnel Watson
cannot be a future prediction 🙂 The tense is strong imperative present – as in it must be done now It is not future about some future undefined times
Link Hudson
Troy Day what tense is ‘They have pierced My gands and My feet in’?
Link Hudson
Rico Hero where is the Scripture for Jesus having an eternally preexistent spirit body? Is that in the Book of Dake, right after the Book of Opinipns, and right before the Book of Kennitg Hagin? We should not treat Dake as scripture. Why bring in Dake’s theory at all.
In historic creedal thinking, Jesus was eternally begotten, not at a point in time.
But the verse ‘This day have I begotten Thee’ is in scripture.
Philo is not Bible either, but he calls the Logos the Son of God.
Rico Hero
Troy Day , cannot be a future prediction 🙂 The tense is strong imperative present – as in it must be done now It is not future about some future undefined times.
Rico:
“today” in verse 7 is also in the present tense.
Rico Hero
Link Hudson
Rico Hero where is the Scripture for Jesus having an eternally preexistent spirit body?
Rico:
You heard of the doctrine pre-incarnation of Christ? He made numerous bodily appearances in the OT
Link :
Is that in the Book of Dake, right after the Book of Opinipns, and right before the Book of Kennitg Hagin? We should not treat Dake as scripture. Why bring in Dake’s theory at all.
Rico:
Your Funny. Some people who receive the spirit baptism–you know, it comes like a rushing wind from within and a person speaks in other language and other gifts of the spirit are given, such people tend to take the Bible literally .
Link:
In historic creedal thinking, Jesus was eternally begotten, not at a point in time.
But the verse ‘This day have I begotten Thee’ is in scripture.
Philo is not Bible either, but he calls the Logos the Son of God.
Rico:
eternally begotten is an oxymoron for Eternal means time without and end. To beget is to bring into existence. You see the humors contradiction?
You dont believe in the pre incarnation of Christ appearing bodily in the OT?
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson I got lost in yalls discussion – what argument there could be against Trinitarian Pentecostalism?