Practical application of Pentecostal theology in politics, economy and social issues
They Knew Not Until The Day (705)
They Knew Not Until The Day (705)
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Varnel Watson
THEY KNEW NOT UNTIL THE DAY Ricky Grimsley knew but Link Hudson was still reading 2 Thess. offline – the way this group will read about the time Rev. 4:2 takes place 🙂
Link Hudson
Again, not as strong of an argument as just following what Paul plainly says. Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour. He did not say no one knows the season– or the month and week for that matter. And there is an expiration date on no man knows the day or the hour. When it happens, men can know.
Paul says the day is not to overtake us as a theif.
Varnel Watson
So a comprehensive argument is not a strong argument
An argument from the Greek is not a comprehensive argument
A simple argument from the English Bible text does not meet your own interpretation
A link to a whole discussion is too long to read
Who can suffice that? – just like in the days of Noah
Ricky Grimsley
It wasn’t a surprise to Noah and his family when it rained. Only the world.
Varnel Watson
how can we be 100% sure about that since they have never seen rain before ever as has not anyone else?
Ricky Grimsley
Because they heard from god
Varnel Watson
Did God tell Noah I send the rain?
No
He just said build an arc 🙂
That;s all he heard from God
Link Hudson
Troy Day why dont you type or cut, paste and cite relevant answers. You will link sites that do not even address a topic at all. Or there will be some comment buried in there that is related. If we ask you questions, posting a link is not the same as answering or discussing.
Varnel Watson
Because I dont feel like repeating the same discussion over and over again Its easier for you to actually read it before you comment This way we are all on the same page right?
Link Hudson
Troy Day Sorry Troy, if you want to discuss with me, discuss with me. Do not refer me to long web pages full of code and Greek discussion. It’s frustrating to read through a page to find the whole thing is irrelevant to the discussion, or it is not obvious where you see the connection. If you know there is relavent content, why don’t you cut and paste.
I’ve seen Perry Stone read pre-trib into passages before. I don’t have time to watch all his sermons.
Varnel Watson
discussing with you cannot be constant repeat of the same
Link Hudson
Troy Day It is. I ask a question. You don’t answer. Same as last time we discussed this issue.
For example– do you think II Thessalonians 1 is about the Jeus coming back at the rapture or the second coming? (I see both as the same thing.)
Why would the events in II Thessalonians 2:1 not describe the day of the Lord in 2:2?
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson I find your comments on this post amusing Pls comment on this OP we already have 3-4 other threads on 1 Thes where I am responding and answering you and explaining HOW and WHY 1 Thes does not help your case at all
Link Hudson
Troy Day could you quote a single sentence you wrote in any of the threads where you even made an argument that I Thessalonians does not help my case at all. You have not sytated whether you believe I Thes. 1 is aboit Jesus comimg at the rapture or the second coming.
Why is Jesus just coming back one time in I Thessalonians 1 and doing ‘rapture stuff’ and ‘second coming stuff”?
Ricky Grimsley
If you understand there isn’t really a chapter break between 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5, then you understand that Paul identifies the day of the lord as the rapture. We also know from several other passages that the day of the lord includes signs in the heavens and also God’s wrath. So Paul certainly knows that when he writes 2 Thessalonians and tells you that day won’t come till Antichrist is revealed. Certainly the gospel writers knew this when they wrote Matthew 24 Luke 21 Mark 13 and Rev etc.
Link Hudson
Ricky Grimsley I was just looking at II Thes 2:1-2. How can someone interpret this except to mean that ‘as though the day of Christ had come’ refers back to the coming of Christ and our gathering to him? So it is in that passage, too.
Link Hudson
Troy Day If we were having this discussion over the dinner table, and instead of talkung, I gave you a couple of volumes of an encyclopedia of the Bible and said I had already, what would you think? You provide one link to a Greek discussion of l in depth discussion of a verrse that does not offer an argument for either pretrib or rapture-at-the-second coming positions. And you expect us to wade through pages and videos to find what you consider helpful. It seems likely to me you just do not have any answers to these problems with pretrib we show in Paul’s writings and send people to lengthy Greek discussions so you can draw attention to your knowing Greek and ptetend they cannot know some secret without knowing Greek.
If you do not know jow II Thes. 1 fits with pretrib just be humor abput itu and say you do not know.
Ricky Grimsley
Exactly. Paul clearly states both things as if to keep the passage clear that they are two things but apparently are back-to-back or really close and both happen after the Antichrist as the subject of the passage. IMO
Varnel Watson
No proof they are back to back whatsoever On the contrary both events are separated by the removal of the restrainer Who may that be?
Link Hudson
Troy Day show me in thepassage where there aretwo events separated by the restrainer. Where do you get two events?
Varnel Watson
2 Thes 2:22 can you and Ricky Grimsley agree on who the restrainer is? – that is the greatest weakness hole in the theory of all non-pre-tribbers
Link Hudson
Troy Day really? Two chapters here talking about Jesus returning for the churcgh at His second coming–not the pretrib idea of 7 years before it. If neither of us had any answer at all for the restrainer question how does that justify reading pretrib into the passage?
Varnel Watson
Those 2 chapters are NOT talking about what you say they are talking I have placed various scripture verses from those 2 chapters in the original Greek to show you that they do not speak of what you claim they speak of All you have said in return is that you dont know Greek oh well
2 Thes 2:22 has been discussed many times before and even Ricky Grimsley agrees the verse is the separator – rapture occurs when the Restrainer is taken Absolutely no other way of explaingin around without proper interpretation of 2 Thess 2:22 Who would you say the restrainer is? Link Hudson
Link Hudson
Troy Day not surem read a case for Michael. Cannot be the church because the day of Christ cannot occur until the man if sin is revealed. Paul describes the day of Christ in v. 1 and chapter 1. The church recieves rest when Jesus returns.
Varnel Watson
You didnt answer my question; nevertheless your line of commenting has so removed itself from this OP that it makes sense no more #sorry
Ricky Grimsley
You use process of elimination. It’s obviously not the church or the Holy Spirit. I choose Michael because of Daniel12:1 but it it what it is.
Varnel Watson
it is not so obvious that it is not the church
Ricky Grimsley
Well you gotta pick if the church is the bride or if the church is a man?
Link Hudson
Where is the church called a ‘he’?
Ricky Grimsley
Never
Link Hudson
II Thessalonians 2:1
2 Now, brethren, concerning the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ and our GATHERING together to Him, we ask you,
Matthew 24
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man COMING on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will GATHER together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (NKJV, with emphasis in caps mine)
Troy Day, and all pre-tribbers, is the coming in these two passages the same event?
Is the gathering in these two passages the same event?
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson once again you need to start making difference between the Greek words Paul uses to describe these events
harpazo vs parousia
Link Hudson
Troy Day, a word for the rapture versus a word for the coming of Christ. Where have I mixed the two up?
Varnel Watson
Just about everywhere Do you make difference between harpazo vs parousia?
Link Hudson
Troy Day in terms of the meaning of words or the timing? The resurrection of those who are Christ’s occurs at His coming according to Paul. The rapture occurs after the resurrection and we all are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
Do you believe in the parousia occuring at the end of the tribulation?
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson you seem to be the very fulfillment of the prophecy: THEY KNEW NOT UNTIL THE DAY #amen
Link Hudson
Troy Day we are children of light so the day should not overtake us as a theif.