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God poured out in renewal in 1994 in Canada. What did we learned from the Toronto Blessing? What is your story?
Roger David [03/11/2016 12:29 AM]
This was my home church for years before and during the renewal. When they were kicked out of the Vineyard for all the strangeness is when I started to look for another church to attend and found one.
Peter A Vandever [03/11/2016 12:36 AM]
As I said in the article, I donth think that was the case as much as people make it out to be. I think is was more Wimber was sick of being blamed for things 3,000 miles away.
Roger David [03/11/2016 12:40 AM]
Exactly…Wimber didn’t want to deal with it as he had no desire at all to defend the lunacy that was happening. He preferred to give them a way out rather than to just squash it. John and Carol agreed it would be best if they were not part of the Vineyard any more as they had a different vision for the church at that point. How can two walk together unless they agree? So they parted ways…and it was due to the odd happenings that were indefensible.
Peter A Vandever [03/11/2016 12:47 AM]
In my personal view, I think Wimber was dead wrong and he did it only to save the Vineyard knowing he was about to die.
Roger David [03/11/2016 12:50 AM]
In my personal view as a person who attended there for years and being on the ministry teams before and during the renewal I can speak from first hand experience and share that the odd manifestations, false prophecies and lack of self control is what caused the separation. It was by no means any error on Wimbers part in fact I attribute it to his spot on discernment in this instance.
But hey…you are allowed to have your opinion š
Peter A Vandever [03/11/2016 12:56 AM]
I never cared about the odd manifestations.
Stan Wayne [03/11/2016 6:11 AM]
I went to Rodney Howard Browne meetings and found them so absurd, so cultic, so fake, so offensive to seekers that I plastered every car in the parking lot with anti cult brochures.
My local assembly fell for it hook line and sinker in spite of warnings. The anti climax of the end of it resulted in the assembly breaking of into non existence. The pastor and wife today are backslidden the people scattered in various degrees of coldness. Dumb.
Kalbimin Tek Sahibi [03/12/2016 8:22 AM]
Kalbimin Tek Sahibi liked this on Facebook.
Tim Renneberg [03/13/2016 10:04 AM]
Nice to see the Toronto “blessing” is still causing division. For what it’s worth, Toronto had little to no effect on Toronto itself. It did, however, have some damaging effects on churches in Ontario… sometimes deviststing. My home church still bears the scars of a nasty split 20 years ago.
Varnel Watson
I am bringing back the TORONTO blessing because RH Browne is currently touring EUROPE praying for pastors of rising or good size churches in hope to start another holy laughter outside of the good ol USA but this time instead of CA is EU – a bit a challenge with the Muslim migrant invasion going on there but oh well … maybe the Spirit has led him to do that – what do you think?
The basic history of the so called blessing is that a pastor from St. Louis named Randy Clark went to Toronto for a short series of meetings after being prayed for by Rodney Howard-Browne in Tulsa. One meetings became months of meetings and the pastor of the local Vineyard church was transformed. John Arnott was completely a new type of pastor because of the renewal that broke out. It would go on and on for several years. The 10th year of renewal and it was in my opinion, the tail end of the renewal. It might even have been a memorial service for the renewal to be frank. It started to die down around 2000. However, no one back then would have ever admitted that!
Link Hudson Terry Wiles IS the TORONTO blessing a good case to examine pentecostal vs charismatic theology? Would the same approach work in Europe or other places. It did NOT work in the USA but it did last for a while in Canada… William DeArteaga
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/there-has-been-a-lot-of-interest-in-the-100-years-past-azusa-street-new-revival-prophecy/
William DeArteaga
Ihad the honor of addressing 5,000 pastors and leaders at the Toronto revivla at a leadershipmeeting. Had a gret time.
Link Hudson
I never went to Toronto, but about the time the movement started, I had just started going to a Vineyard home group/church plant that met on Sunday might, while going to a Congregational Holiness Church in the morning. The teaching seemed pretty noncontraversial to someone with my Pentecostal background. After the typical Bible study/church service stuff, we had ‘ministry time.’ That’s where those who wanted prayer would put their hands up, or out palms up, and other people who wanted to pray for them would. If anyone fell out, the people praying would kneel down beside them and just keep praying instead of going to the next person.
I started praying for people and they’d ask me how I knew about this or that… whatever I was praying about. I began to notice internally what was going on when I did that, too, and realized I was getting impressions to pray those things. I put it in the ‘word of knowledge’ category. Someone else might say that’s ‘prophetic prayer’. Some time around that season I’d been prayed for by the pastor of the Atlanta Vineyard and he prayed like that, too.
So then a group from our cell group go up to Toronto and come back. Two of them were shaking all over the place, talking about what happened to them in Toronto. And this other guy joined the group. He kept just praying “More. More, Lord”, and ‘Fire, fire.” Maybe it was because you couldn’t hear, IMO, more edifying prayers over the ‘more more’ stuff. But
Then there was the whole issue of what purpose shaking when you went to church served. The church location shut down because the host had been in secret sin and was leaving his wife. Another couple wanted to plant a Vineyard starting in their house, and they gave our group over to them, and they wanted to control things a bit more. I just went for a while. The teaching seemed a bit esoteric to me. It was hard for me to understand what they were saying. My brother and sister went to that church for a while. I’d visit a bit.
And it seemed like the splashes of the Toronto wave we were getting had a lot of emphasis on ‘manifestations’– making uncontrollable body movements. And there was the thing of people roaring like lions or whatever when they got prayed for. That was supposed to be a ‘sign.’ I wondered how that lined up with signs in the Bible. Jeremiah wore a dirty belt as a sign, and an iron yoke as a sign. God instructed him to do these things and he did. And they communicated a message.
There was a lot of allegorical interpretation. People would repeat stuff they heard in Toronto. Something about the sound of marching in the mulberry trees, but a really allegorical connection to what was supposed to be going on.
And then there was that attitude– you had better not oppose this move of God. And all the shaking– and what was the point of it… an emphasis on shaking and acting weird.
It did not sit well with me. I can’t say the Toronto group did not have a genuine revival, or that God did not touch some people in my local area through some of this stuff. But it seemed like there was this idea that weirdness– ‘manifestations’ were spiritual.
I got in a few conversations with a fellow on the Internet named Andrew Strom who was against the Toronto movement. I was a bit more open but cautious about condemning it. He was opposed to the movement and later went on to make a prophetic supersite when the world wide web was developed, and a Kundalini spirit video many years later.
I was happy when I went abroad not to see this stuff over there. I was in a more ‘Charismatic’ culture, not quite WOF, not the same as American Pentecostal, at the time, at a COG church that called itself ‘Karismatic’ and felt like the set of a Charismatic TV show in the US in terms of dress and style, with ethnic Chinese.
After a while though, one of the big wigs in the denomination, who had managed a company I had worked for, came in with this tall curly headed preacher from Canada who popped in to the end of the service, making some kind of weird knee bend movement and saying ‘whoa’ while he was talking about this great revival.
They put together a big group of a few thousand in a basketball arena from that fellowship of churches to hear this guy and Larry Randolph try to persuade everyone how great this revival was, and how if the Spirit came on you– they alleged, you might do all this weird stuff– making noises and weird movements. It seemed
They got people into groups to pray for each other. They told them to take turns praying and encouraged them to pray prophetic prayers. Instead of doing that, true to form, just about everyone in their started praying in tongues really loud at the same time so you could hardly hear if someone got a prophecy. I didn’t see people starting to act like animals or make weird thrusting motions like the Canadian fellow did. But there was one girl across the room rolling on the floor. One of the women in the intercessory prayer ministry at my church who was a part of my group was trying to decide whether to go over there and try to cast something out of the girl rolling on the floor.
At some point, Wimber kicked the Toronto group of the Vineyard, they felt, without warning. But he’d warned against the hyper-allegorical use of scripture. They published something with that in it, and then he just announced they were out, or so I read/heard.
Link Hudson
Calling Toronto teaching ‘Charismatic theology’ is problematic. Wagner came up with a third category called ‘Third Wave’ to describe evangelicals who believed in operating in gifts of the Spirit who weren’t part of the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements. Charismatics typically accepted the Pentecostal perspective on the baptism with the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in tongues.
I did not hear Vineyard pastors address the issue that much. I asked someone in the church if they believed that. He said no. Or originally no, but plenty of Charismatics who believed you would speak in tongues if you were baptized with the Holy Ghost had started attending so some there believed that.
Some of the ‘third wavers’ believed in being baptized with the Holy Ghost, that you might speak in tongues… or not, when the Spirit came on you.
I don’t know the particulars of the Toronto Airport Vineyard on this issue at the time. I suspect it was similar to other Vineyard churches.
Varnel Watson
If you think as Charismatic being the second wave in 50-70s who came from mainline denominations – maybe, but if you go back to Wagner is very much Charismatic
As already mentioned to Gary Micheal New Apostolic Reformation originates directly from C. Peter Wagner (1930-2016) who took the idea from G12 while in South America and coined the term in 1994 after trying several alternatives such as āNeopentecostal,ā āNeocharismatic,ā āIndependent,ā āPost denominationalā or āNondenominational.ā and Third-waveā (also a term coined by Wagner)
There are several factors here
1. After stating 1 thing in his Secular City, in Fire from Heaven Harvey Cox expounded on South America exploding for the Gospel while North American churches – in the city – slowly dying
2. Wagner @ Fuller and AG were all seeking an answer for church growth and they found it in
1) charismatic renewal in N America
2) S American revivalism in the 1980s – I think particularly Brazil, though Wagner was in a different area but borrowed a lot from G12 and also Cox, who as a thinker nailed the Pentecostal growth idea
3rd wave IMO was not only Wagner’s term. It was used naturally after the Charismatics and Yes it was more Charismatic theology as most of South American Pentecostals came running straight from the Catholic churches āIndependentā and āPost denominationalā were also not his terms but he tried them well. āNeopentecostalā and āNeocharismatic” he used both almost interchangeably But the term that stuck was NAR Wagner subsequently wrote of NAR in his books:
The New Apostolic Churches (1998);
Churchquake! (1999);
Apostles and Prophets (2000);
Changing Church (2004);
and Apostles Today (2006).
Now back to Toronto airport revival – there is IMO no other place in hte 90s where NAR was more prominent. Terry Wiles may correct me of course but Toronto had every facet of NAR present within them. This IMO characterizes their theology strictly Charismatic all the way to the time when Wagner (and others) made the curve to post-Trib and in some cases even to post-Mil also borrowed from the very Catholic theology of Augustine spread in S America and in some point even into the Liberation Gospel and Rushdoony’s Christian reconstructionism
Link Hudson
The problem with saying the Toronto Airport Vineyard– and subsequent names(s) was ‘Charismatic’ in its beliefs is that ‘Charismatic’ is all over the map.
Back when ‘Third Wave’ was a term being used, I think a lot of those churches did not call themselves ‘Charismatic’ or really identify strongly with the Charismatic movement. But I doubt many of the members or attendees had ever heard of ‘third wave.’ One reason for coming up with the term is that they did not consider themselves ‘Charismatic’. The term ’empowered evangelicals’ was used, and still is.
And churches that went by ‘third wave’ did not necessarily go with the whole ethos of the NAR either.
Varnel Watson
the only difference btween Wagners ‘third wave’ and NAR was adding the postmil eschatology I think that happened around Y2K I then studied and observed several hundred churches globally for one of my dissertation in leadership. And there was a sudden eschatology change among apostolic churches. We then come to realize Wagner was dictating it via his NAR apostolic network Around 2000-2001 IMO NAR was not that big of a global factor Others have disagreed by saying Wagner’s influence started much earlier but I have expressed by doubts to that At the end it wasnt even Wagner doing the major shift – it was the external churches who decided to ride NAR and benefit from it
Terry Wiles
I work in Central and South America which is impacted heavenly with G12 and NAR.
The “power” of the Apostles is extremely oppressive
Danny
Totalitarian?
Link Hudson
Troy Day The ‘third wave’ term, as I understood it back in the early ’90’s when I was reading about churches as they were in the 1980’s were churches that were from evangelical backgrounds that did not feel connected to the Charismatic movement of the previous decades.
Is post-mil the only difference between that and the NAR? I am not sure of Vineyard eschatology or if there was even a concensus. But they were very ‘pastor focused’ in a similar way to Pentecostal churches back in the 1980’s.
I would associate the New ___Apostolic___ Reformation more with the teachings on apostleship than the eschatology. For example, the idea that pastors needed an apostolic covering. The idea that an apostle is a fatherly type figure who can be a daddy to pastors. They need to find these apostles to be fathers to them and to provide an extra layer of hierarchy over them to lead them into the exciting new future.
I believe in a gift of apostleship, and that in general it would manifest itself in church planting. Apostles in scripture started out doing a lot of work in churches but eventually delegating as deacons, elders, and other ministers of the word were raised up, and then backed off from adminsitrating local churches. At least the 12 did that. At first, they collected money. Later, money from out of town went to the elders. At first they fed the widows. Later, the seven did it. At first, the twelve probably handled sensitive church political issues– like disagreements over the feeding of widows. But when Paul came to town, they passed that hot potato over ot James and the elders. Paul and Barnabas also appointed elders. A lot of missionaries take the approach of planting churches then raising up local leadership even nowadays.
I consider fatherlyness to be a characteristic that elders should have as well. And the verse about having many teachers, but not many fathers, and in the gospel Paul had become their father…IMO.. that has an evangelistic component to it. Paul and his coworkers had brought them the gospel and won them to Christ, so he was their father. I can’t see where he looking for established churches to be a father figure to their pastors so he could get more administrative responsibilities and more power.
It seemed to me that what I heard of NAR ideas of apostleship was going the opposite of Biblical apostleship in the 1990’s.
Some of this apostle movement sees big ‘movers and shakers’ and influencers in the Christian domain as apostles. It’s rather loose.
I haven’t spent enough time around the NAR to know for sure, but from what I’ve heard, I get the impression that some of the leaders do not teach verse by verse on eschatology, and members are probably not going to get a clear eschatological system. But they may pick up some ideas that are held in common with post-mil. But also with ‘here and not yet’ type of thinking. For example, the idea that the kingdom can be expressed through Christians serving in government or in the entertainment industry, being salt and light. Honestly, I do not see that type of thinking as diametrically opposed to premillenialism.
The kingdom of God is the reign and rule of God. We can see manifestations of it in Jesus’ ministry, in the preaching and healing, in the apostles doing the same sorts of things, and in the modern church doing the same sorts of things. We have received the Spirit as both an earnest and firstfrutis of things to come. Christ’s kingdom comes in more fullness after He returns.
The Vineyard was one of the bigger ‘third wave’ groups, probably, back when Wagner coined (I think) the term for the evangelicals like himself who believed in Spirit-empowerment but did not consider themselves Charismatic. I don’t think the Vineyard went with the NAR. I know of one VIneyard that was not noticeably ‘Charismatic’ or ‘Third Wave’ or whatever when it came to the gifts. They brought in congregations that had a bit different culture. I think they may be a mixed bag. At one point, a large percentage of their pastors leaned toward Calvinism, too. If I remember right is was 40 or 50%. They may be split on some other theological issues.
Accepting the idea of ‘five-fold ministry’, IMO, is not the same as the teaching of the NAR movement. There have been Pentecostals for a long time who think that some missionaries and/or church planters are in apostolic ministry. I heard an old Howard Carter sermon where he said that– very similar to what Watchman Nee wrote. He might have even referred to Nee, but I can’t remember clearly.
Varnel Watson
‘third wave’ comes straight from Wagner’s books BUT did not pick up and he changed to using NAR instead
Link Hudson
Troy Day Yeah, well I haven’t heard people call themselves that. Based on how he described it, a lot of ‘Third Wave’ would not be ‘NAR’ as I understand NAR. ‘Empowered evangelicals’ might have gotten a lot more traction than ‘third wave’ anyway.
In the ’80’s, probably a lot of the people in the Vineyard did not think of themselves as ‘Charismatic’, but I didn’t go ask them, and when I was involved around 1994, I did not ask many people about it. I don’t think their churches originally taught tongues as initial evidence, but they had variety in their beliefs between congregations, too. And they have affiliated with a lot of churches with different styles since then. I went to one that had a theoretical belief in the ‘charismatic’ gifts, but almost no emphasis on them.
Varnel Watson
I actually never knew until recently it was an Wagner coined term. I;ve heard it back in the day among scholarly circles used for post-Charismatic churches but my point was again well made to Gary Micheal that Wagner indeed invented NAR and used that terminology in several of his books to describe various (ever changing) stages within his movement; which final names was indeed New Apostolic Reformation or NAR in short borrowed by many others too
Link Hudson
Troy Day Wagner apparently found some groups that held to the idea that an extra layer of hierarchical leaders called themselves ‘apostles’, and labeled it as a movement, then was asked to lead it. If I remember right, his old ‘Spiritual gifts can help your church grow’ put forth the idea that high ranking denominational officials could be considered ‘apostles.’
It sounds like adding arch-bishops to evangelicalism or something along those lines. What would that make him?
Varnel Watson
Its apparent Wagner did not do any of that š
Link Hudson
Troy Day Did not do what? He claimed he researched movements led by ‘apostles’, wrote about it, and then was asked to lead it, based on an interview I saw many years ago (which I don’t know a link to, but you could search for it.)
Varnel Watson
Where did the claim or wrote any of that? His research in Fuller came from mission work in South America among Catholics and Catholic charismatics in Brazil per se
Link Hudson
Troy Day Hmmm. How would that be inconsistent with what I wrote?
Terry Wiles
Troy Day. I believe you have it right except for Wagner.
I heard him in the early 80s. He stated clearly that he was neither Pentecostal nor Charasmatic. He said he considered himself to be part of the third wave movement of the Holy Spirit.
This was the springboard for the NAR.
Opel Reddin, who we knew in a peer relationship, debated Wagner and others as to the validity of their doctrine.
Out of this we received her support, and others, to pursue Res 16 as an attempt to keep whole movements from falling off the cliff.
At exactly the same time Wimber and Vinyard rejected Toronto and changed their entire structure overnight. I saw the raw data
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse was wondering if you meant Totalitarian?
Daniel J Hesse
Troy Day it might be right.
Varnel Watson
Certainly a move in that direction if you ask me
Brian Roden
Would love to see those debates between Dr Reddin and Wagner. A friend of mine growing up married her granddaughter
Varnel Watson
Do you mean Opal L. Reddin? Wagner is with the Lord
Terry Wiles
Troy Day both of them are.
Varnel Watson
Yes Terry Wiles this is exactly Wagner after doing missions and around Fuller 80-early 90s. Then he’s a co author in an AG missions book called Called & Empowered in which he clearly states that after his search he identifies within the continuing charismata movement – I think the re-defining of his theology was to draw crowd from outside AG which he did with many South American Catholics etc. I know I’ve posted a snapshot of his article in the said book when we’ve spoken with Peter Vandever and others about this shift in the group However, the eschatological shift toward postmil comes a bit later for him
Link Hudson
Did he say ‘charismata’ movement? If so, dropping the ‘ic’ may have been intentionally.
Some of those third wavers at the time might have associated Charismatic with prosperity WOF TV ministers and may have wanted to distance themselves.
Varnel Watson
I am quoting here directly from Vinson Synan
In his book, The New Apostolic Churches, Wagner listed eighteen pastors (or āapostlesā) who represented the new movement. Of these, only Bill Hybels, Michael Fletcher and David Kim do not appear to have Pentecostal or charismatic backgrounds. Most, such as Billy Joe Daugherty, Roberts Liardon and William Kumuyi, are openly Pentecostal or charismatic. Others have been part of the Pentecostal/charismatic renewal for years. Clearly most of the āNew Apostolic Churchesā have their roots in classical Pentecostalism. Their distinctive features were pioneered by Pentecostals who were successful pastors long before the apostolic movement began.
In 1999, Wagner attempted to organize the movement into an umbrella grouping under the name āInternational Coalition of Apostles,ā with Wagner listed as the āPresiding Apostle.ā New āapostlesā could join and pay $69 a month as membership dues. Wagner listed the many types of āapostlesā who could be members. They included:
āVertical apostles,ā which included āecclesiastical, functional, apostolic team members and congregational apostlesā
āHorizontal apostles,ā which included: āconvening, ambassadorial, mobilizing and territorial apostlesā
āMarketplace apostles,ā (undefined)
āCalling apostles,ā which are those who call Christians together in unity
…..
David Barrett previously listed most of them as ādenominational Pentecostalsā until his New World Christian Encyclopedia(2000) began to designate them as āneo-charismatic.ā Rather than being part of a āNew Apostolic Reformation,ā most of them are actually part of the āPentecostal/charismatic reformation.ā It seems that Wagner has tried to impose a new title for movements that were already dynamic churches originally inspired by the Pentecostals and to create an artificial apostolic structure with himself as āpresiding apostle.ā
….
Link Hudson
Troy Day Maybe they wanted the A-card.
I wonder if someone at a conference gave them all a big letter ‘A’ to wear, how long it would take for participants to catch the allusion.
Link Hudson
Troy Day I talked to a church planter who considered himself an apostle and considered that to refer to the church planting ministry, now deceased, who told me he was at Wagner’s headquarters and somehow, they walked him back to the big grand office where Wagner sat to talk with him. During the conversation, this preacher mentioned an apostle in Spain. Wagner said there weren’t any apostles in Spain, called the secretary on the phone, as I recall, and asked her. She said there was one apostle in Spain.
The church planter had heard of the Wagner apostle. He said all he knew of his ministry is he’d tried to take over a congregation in Spain and they wouldn’t have it.
It seemed to him that Wagner thought that if someone was an apostle, he was registered with Wagner’s organization.
The same guy said for years, though, that he had a doctorate, and sent out an email stating he had not, apologized, and said he would stop claiming the master’s he’d earned from an school that had gone under, too.
I met a denominational official in the IPHC who asked my wife to call him ‘Apostle’ before his first name. I was about to laugh out loud, thinking it was a joke, but he was serious.
Varnel Watson
Wagner was brought in his discussion only to define NAR related to Toronto I think there is not doubt any longer they are Charismatic and origin and NAR related – many of their apostolic network reps minister in Toronto regularly expecting even greater things there till 2020 – this settles it for me
As for your anecdotal story, I am surprised of any such office – most of important meetings on his compound happened around his antique tractor collection And yes Gary Micheal Epping Wagner’s obituary named him pioneer apostle of the New Apostolic Reformation – word for word quote…
Link Hudson
Troy Day i was just thinking about it. Thebman told me the country he resided in put a lot if faith in education and the mentally ill would get healed more when he prayed for them there. He thought it was because they trusted himfor gaving a doctorate. Some time later got an email about him confessing to not having a doctorate. Someone said one of his papers was PhD level work and it grew out of that. He was the same guy who told the Wagner story so I am thinki g of deleting it if I can do so with my phone.
Link Hudson
What I came away from the experience– far from Toronto but in fellowship with some visitors to the meetings and around people who were shaking is:
– Do not celebrate weirdness.
– Do not ‘prime the pump’ and try to get people to act weird so you could have a ‘revival.’
– Stick with the Bible– church meetings should be about edification, not acting weird.
Now, sometimes when we pray for people, weird stuff might happen. I saw a pastor lay hands on a woman today during an altar call. I was standing right next to her. The woman screamed loud. I wondered if she needed some kind of deliverance, but then I could just feel the emotional pain she was dealing with.
Sometimes people might fall down or have emotional reactions. But church leaders shouldn’t encourage people to act weird, confusing emotions with spirituality. Prior to the ‘Toronto Blessing’, I noticed that gifts of the Spirit operated in the Vineyard, even in ways I had very rarely witnessed for nearly a couple of decades at the time in Pentecostalism. But the people were laid back and did not talk in the unnatural preachy tone of voice a lot of Pentecostals used when they preached.
Teaching people it’s spiritual to go into a meeting and make thrusting motions, shake, or scream out “Ho!” loudly (unless that’s a prophetic message, in which case I hope it’s ‘Hoe’ and not that other word) does not seem to fit the paradigm Paul presents for edification in I Corinthians 14. In our church meetings, we are to let all things be done for edification. In our church meetings, the different members of the body of Christ are to sing, teach, share revelations, speak in tongues, and interpret in an edfying and orderly way in line with what is written in scripture.
Lion growling without interpretation isn’t going to edify other members of the body of Christ. And if unbelievers see it, they may just think you are madder than if you had just spoken in tongues.
Varnel Watson
about what Parham said about Azusa when he visited them that one and only time š
Danny
It could have been “Woe or Whoa?”
Link Hudson
Troy Day I didn’t say anything scathing or racist in my post though.
Varnel Watson
I am trying to locate the quote of Vinson Synan who when asked by Wagner to join his NAR network for $69 a month, responded that the price is too high for him [my approximate quote]
Vinson Synan
I said that I cannot afford to be an apostle
Danny
Dr Synan is my APOSTLE! Because we have freely received we freely give. He surely gave me plenty of pages to write in his courses! Dr. V great appreciation and honor to an Apostolic Pentecostal Georgia Bulldog! Love ya always.
Danny
Link Hudson
Vinson Synan did he offer you a discount?
Good to hear for you, btw. You were very kind to me in OK. Better than okay.
Varnel Watson
True story! Where about was the “cannot afford” quote? I’ve read it and tried to find it last night in several articles to no avail…
Link Hudson
Troy Day you got It on this page. āŗ
Varnel Watson
True – after spending hours to find the article so I can show it to you now you’ve got it from the source Proves charismatic origins? Tulsa prof should be sufficient I guess
Dan Hesse
What did we learn? I have traveled in the glory circle, NAR , the Third Wave, the Kingdom Now, WOF, and recently connected with a wide variety of interesting splinter cells. What have we learned? Are we wiser, more holy, and walking in greater peace? Have we seen transformation?
Roger David
Y’all talking about my home church. lol
Link Hudson
Is it Charismatic? I”ve a got a question. Do people go to church there and say ‘Ho!’ or other random stuff like that out of the blue or growl like animals these days? Was that ever a big part of what was going on, or a one-off thing during ‘ministry time.’
Roger David
Link Hudson I suppose I should have stated that use to be my home church. I now live in Texas and attend a AoG church. I was there in the midst of all the renewal.
The church now is mainly a conference holding church. The last time I was there was for this…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDTtQ2Gc9GA The 2018 Light The Fire Again conference where Toronto Renewal meets Brownsville Revival mixed in with Argentinian revival. It was a great time for the most part. I could have done with out some of the goings on.
The Ho’s are still there. No animal sounds. (never heard that the entire time I attended) and minimal laughing (none done at the wrong times).
Link Hudson
Roger David What’s the right time for laughing? In some churches, it’s after the preacher’s joke. š
What did they say the ‘Ho’s’ were about, anyway?
I just heard people talk who had been there and repeated what they heard from Toronto. Trying to prime people to shake did not sit well with me. Shaking uncontrollably or acting weird did not seem to fit the mold of the ‘signs’ in the Bible.
Varnel Watson
At Eighth and Maple Streets such a divine āweight of gloryā was upon us we could only lie on our faces. For a long time we could hardly remain seated evenā¦ā (āAnother Wave Rolls Inā, by Bartleman. Voice Publications. 1962). And: āIt was also reported that the ājerksā and ātreeing the devilā (that is, crawling on all fours and barking up a tree like a dog) were in evidence in the (Azusa) mission.ā
Roger David
Link Hudson The right time to laugh is when something is funny…rather than when the preacher is calling people to repentance.
The Ho’s were when the Holy Spirit touches you in such a way that you feel what can only be described ad electricity flow through you. This obviously is not electricity it’s just the closest thing to the experience that I can describe. Most of the time this would happen during intercession in travail or when one attempted to resist the urging of the Spirit. Not sure why this happened.
Trying to prime someone to shake was never part of the church. That might be someone on the fringes that didn’t have a clue.
Self control was preached but not at the expense of the influence of the Holy Spirit.
The most offensive message I ever heard preached there was “Don’t think, Just drink” This was around the time I left the church.
Link Hudson
Roger David I never went to Toronto, but in the movement, I heard a lot of ‘offend the mind to reveal the heart’ and the idea that you don’t want to oppose the move of God which was presumably supposed to be the outburts and ‘manifestation’s.
I remember the curly headed tall Canadian fellow who went to Jakarta with Larry Randolf talking about how when this revival hits, you might do this weird thing or that. To me, it seemed like trying to psych up the crowd to act weird. And I never could figure out how all that stuff was supposed to edify the church. If someone gets prayed for and acts weird when they get delivered, that’s one thing. Trying to get people to want to act weird was something that concerned me.
I spoke online with a Charismatic fellow from Eastern Europe who had some visitors from more of the Charismatic side of the revival talking about how the American visitor ‘primed the pump’ talking about all the weird stuff the people would do, then there were people running around acting like they were flapping their wings.
An ethnic English New Zealand preacher and Bible college deanI knew in Jakarta said the movement was splitting the old indigenous Pentecostal denomination, with half the people there acting like kindergarteners.
Roger David
Link..the church never taught the manifestations. They would mentioned them as a warning “Don’t worry these people aren’t drunk as you suppose” kind of thing. But they never taught that the manifestations should be sought after. In fact I heard it taught that the manifestations could serve as a distraction to what God really wanted to do in your life and if you settled for the manifestation that might be all you got.. There was no pump priming.
There seemed to be a split between those that were strong in the Bible but knew nothing of the Spirit….and those that were strong in the spiritual but knew little of the bible.
Varnel Watson
I’ve heard of great prophetic words – not sure if they were ever fulfilled though
Link Hudson
Roger David A split in the congregation?
Well, I never went to Toronto, like I said.
Roger David
Link Hudson not a church split..more like 2 niches.
Daniel J Hesse
What does Shaba mean?
Varnel Watson
In Hebrew the verb Shaba , to swear, is evidently derived from Sheba seven, and denoted a sevenfold affirmation
Varnel Watson
Tell us Roger David We’ve been expecting you…
Terry Wiles
The answer to the OP is “probably nothing.” Give it a few months and they will run after some other manifestation. Those things are circular.
Varnel Watson
Terry didnt it go for over 10 years ?
Terry Wiles
Troy, the Devil’s been trying to copy God’s power for much longer than that. His tactic is to misdirect people from the Gospel of the Kingdom. A 10 year run doesn’t mean it’s from God.
Varnel Watson
isnt it still going on though? – not a small thing
Terry Wiles
Troy Day And not necessarily a good thing either.
Varnel Watson
still what can we learn from it?
Terry Wiles
People are more interested in entertainment than carrying a burden for the lost.
Varnel Watson
is the entertainment of the angels above
Terry Wiles
Nope. Wrong direction. Hell’s doing all the laughing.
Varnel Watson
Angels are rejoicing and entertained every time one is saved https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/california-bible-ban/
Terry Wiles
lol. It doesn’t say that. It says there is joy “around the throne.”
Varnel Watson
I sure see angels in Luke 15:10 there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Terry Wiles
And who, might I ask, is in the presence of the angels of God sitting on the throne? Could it be the one who died for us and stood when Stephen was being martyred?
Daniel J Hesse
Ya know if we look many of the teachings are perpetuated due to the lack of study or observation.
Daniel J Hesse
What was the core of any teaching in any particular move of God?
Ray E Horton
As I see it, weird manifestations aside, many were saved and Spirit-filled, and many others set on fire by the Toronto blessing, and thousands of churches became established after people visited. So no matter what I think about stuff that went off the wall, God’s work was and is being accomplished.
Gary Micheal Epping
yes
Varnel Watson
but was it Pentecostal or Charismatic ?
Link Hudson
Troy Day if it is not Pentecostal does that make it.Charismatic?
Gary Micheal Epping
Or maybe it was just a plain ol revival.
Varnel Watson
there have been plain ol revival among baptists and calvinists – this was one was a bit different than all of them
Ray E Horton
I always thought of it as more Charismatic.
Varnel Watson
I’d say that’s about right Link Hudson
Varnel Watson
I said that;s about right in the very beginning
Toronto Blessing
Entry prepared for the Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, February, 1998
Margaret M. Poloma. (In Press)
Visiting Professor of Graduate Religion and Sociology;
Southern California College
Professor Emerita; The University of Akron http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/pentecostalism_polomaart8.html
Roger David
Good article
Varnel Watson
as well as it should be for the Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements
Robert Erwine
here we are a few decades later and I can say God works and still moves in spite of everything else .
Varnel Watson
Robert Erwine is this what you;d say we learned from Toronto ?
Ray E Horton
During times of revival, emotionalism does manifest and thus some off the wall stuff. Yet, God is bigger than all that, and just like weak people, He is able to use strange revival times to bear much fruit.
Gary Micheal Epping
Yes. Sin in the presence of our mighty God in a revival can cause a wide variety of of reactions, some of which are strange and hard to explain. As you said, the net worth should be determined by the presence or absence of fruit in the revival rather than manifestations.
Varnel Watson
Bottom line from OP – Toronto was very much Charismatic That’s really all I needed to know Link Hudson The rest of the rabbit hole could be what we actually learned from that Revival
Varnel Watson
Yes Link Hudson they do say to stretch the revival back to 1994 when the church was called Vineyard no to be noted as such but that’s a long stretch The revival started much later when the church was already known as Airport Christian Fellowship Of course Roger David may correct me on this one but my timeline should be right
Roger David
It started in 1994 when it was at the end of the runway in the little strip mall building and was called the Toronto Airport Vineyard. It expanded to the Asian Trade Center soon after when the demand for more room came about as a result of the renewal/revival.
Roger David
This is accurate… https://wrldrels.org/2016/10/08/toronto-blessing/
Varnel Watson
so was it a church part of the Vineyard network where it actually started or was it more of a free church?
Roger David
Troy Day It was part of the Vineyard fellowship
Varnel Watson
Roger David is this a major flow in the timeline? 1994 (January 20): Randy Clark, Vineyard pastor from Missouri , was invited to preach a three-day revival at TAV, launching a global revival known as the āToronto Blessing.ā
Randy Clark went there upon the prophetic word given to him by Rodney Howard-Browne about a Toronto revival – is this not true?
Roger David
Troy Day I’m not aware of a prophetic word specific about Toronto from Rodney. I know Marc Dupont had specific prophecies about the revival happening. Randy Clark did attend a Rodney meeting just before coming to Toronto though. There is a sermon online where randy shares his testimony about what happened in his life leading up to the time he preached in Toronto.
It is definitely worth listening to…
I would recommend starting here https://youtu.be/2MSxLpOhvW0?t=4563 (Funny testimony)
And then skipping on over to https://youtu.be/2MSxLpOhvW0?t=8679 (Randy Clarks testimony of the start of the revival)
Varnel Watson
RandyClark delivered a message at the Toronto Airport Vineyard Church during a nightly prayer meeting. After he finished speaking people began to cry, laugh, leap, dance, and even roar as a result of what the church calls “a move of the Holy Spirit.ā
Unlike more traditional Pentecostal behavior (i.e. speaking in tongues, dancing, falling out) people began to make animal noises, see spiritual visions, and laugh hysterically.
In December, 1995 the TAVC was expelled from the Association of Vineyard Fellowships and became the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (TACF)
Varnel Watson
YES I was pretty sure he was baptist so was surprised of the Vineyard argument Link proposed. BY August, 1993 this former Baptist now pastor of an AVC church in St. Louis, Missouri claimed to be āburned-outā and close to a nervous breakdown after years of tough but seemingly unfruitful ministry. Nearly at wits end, Clark reluctantly and skeptically went to Tulsa, Oklahoma where Rodney Howard-Browne,
an immigrant evangelist from South Africa
who was at the center of the so-called ālaughing revival,ā was speaking. Clark found both his heaviness and skepticism lift during this revival meeting when he wound up on the floor laughing for no apparent reason. He soon attended another Howard-Browne meeting in Lakeland , Florida when Clark felt a tremendous power come into his hands as Howard-Browneā said to him: āThis is the fire of God in your handsāgo home and pray for everybody in your church.ā Clark did as instructed and reportedly 95 percent of the congregation fell on the floor āunder the powerā (Poloma 2003:156).
Hey Gerardo de Dominicis maybe Howard-Browne is Trojan horse too š
Roger David
Ya that’s all accurate
Gerardo de Dominicis
Troy Day he might be ?.
Link Hudson
Troy Day I read Clark did a dissertation on evidence for back pain healing through prayer…something like that.
Varnel Watson
didnt see a baptists preacher fitting in the Vineyard
Link Hudson
Troy Day i think they are taking in congregations that don’t seem Charismatic.
Roger David
Troy Day much of the Vineyard was made up of Baptistās that sought more than their theology permitted.
Varnel Watson
So precisely Charismatics then
Link Hudson
Wimber was from an evangelical Quaker background, after his rockn’roll days. I think one of the early congregations actually split from Calvary Chapel, and someone was pastor before Wimber.
Varnel Watson
barking jumping rolling quaking was done by Quaker too and old sanctified Wesleyan Methodists
Link Hudson
Troy Day Never heard of Quakers barking, jumping, and rolling. Did they do it quietly? I read a bit about early Quakers having a bit of speaking in tongues, with a very heavy emphasis on prophesying.
Varnel Watson
heard of them quaking ? clink Link and read pg85 if it doesnt open on it directly https://books.google.com/books?id=Y9Q6Adh5MRsC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=quakers+church+service+barking+like+dogs&source=bl&ots=Zlhk-QrGxg&sig=uu7TXhiclQWlTj9boHO46OB3AxU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjThoPW6NzeAhUB_4MKHaBmALsQ6AEwCHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=quakers%20church%20service%20barking%20like%20dogs&f=false
Link Hudson
Troy Day I read the ‘Quaker’ thing came about a discussion between Fox and a judge where the judge– if I remember right– said Fox ought to be quaking, and Fox said the judge ought to be quaking, presumably becuase of the judgment of God. Anyway, they might have ‘quaked’ too which might have been another readon the name stuck.
Fox comes off as kind of ornary and judgmental, IMO, in his journal. He’d regularly go preach in churches uninvited and get followers. But I read they used to have discussions, question asking, and debates after sermons. I’m not sure if that’s true or if he was basically interrupting church or just preaching after it was over. Anyway, he went to jail (gaol) repeatedly for his preaching.
Link Hudson
Troy Day That document seems to be have been written by someone who did not care much for Quakerism. That doesn’t really prove that barking like dogs was characteristic of Quakerism. There could have been some occasions where this happened for him to include it in the book. I haven’t heard of Quakers going around naked in their meetings. There were some cases of it meant as some kind of prophetic sign against… the government I think…along the lines of Isaiah going naked as a sign. Some of the Quakers considered themselves to be prophets. George Fox was considered to be a prophet. He started getting his ‘openings’ after visiting ‘Prophet Brown’ as I recall.
Varnel Watson
Since OP has nothing to do with Quakers I am now expecting you in the next few days to inform us how you at one time attended a Quakers church too and Quaked with them quite a bit Just a matter of time
Link Hudson
Troy Day I visited one outt of curiosity. They did not say anything during the silent meeting part except one guy talked about a scene from a movie. No one quaked. They sang a song something or other ‘said Fox’ played on a piano before the silent meeting which I do not recall to be a ‘theologically rich’ song. And some dude said he’d lost his gay partner of many years. It seemed way to liberal and empty for me. I did get to pray with one woman in the parking lot about something. Much of modern Quakerism has drifted from its original beluefs.
You suggested it.
Varnel Watson
So now you’ve gone to a qauker church too
The list keeps on growing
Link Hudson
Troy Day one visit.
Varnel Watson
William DeArteaga Peter Vandever what DID we learn and what are we STILL learning Joe Absher can a street preacher be arrested too? Daniel J Hesse Jon Sellers do you feel the fl govt officials were correct? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/confessions-of-a-street-preacher-i-had-a-battle-yesterday/
Daniel J Hesse
Troy Day they did what they did.
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse thats for the judge to decide
Daniel J Hesse
Troy Day this will probably go higher in the courts.
Varnel Watson
They didnt raid the ABC store or the porn store down the street as Joe Absher suggested
Joe Absher
He’s good that way . Jesus I mean .
Varnel Watson
Joe Absher my 350 is still wide open and my 375
Joe Absher
I meant the 420 reefer smokers in San Francisco is cancelled
Varnel Watson
Stan Cooke would you re-post your comment I cannot view it for some reason as it is posted now Alan Smith Joe Absher did they just make a martyr out of him? Is the govt against the churches
Joe Absher
He ain’t dead yet
Varnel Watson
Joe Absher ha – he dont need to be to take this show to a higher court as Daniel J Hesse suggested
Joe Absher
There’s only one court that matters .
Varnel Watson
Folks, whether you agree with his ministry or not, the arrest of this man has set a dangerous precedent. Now that this door is open, where does it end? What happens when the government issues and executive order to tell us we can’t preach against homosexuality? I believe in exercising caution and safety, but arresting this man has crossed a VERY DANGEROUS line that we may not be able to come back from. There is supposed to be something called “separation between church and state”, but we all really know that is just political language that doesn’t mean anything, obviously!
Varnel Watson
ALL I am gonna tell Jon Sellers is that started with the NYT article he advised us to chill upon Now this text from TBT is just disgusting https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/03/30/tampa-church-holds-packed-service-draws-warning-from-sheriffs-office/
Varnel Watson
Folks, whether you agree with his ministry or not, the arrest of this man has set a dangerous precedent. Now that this door is open, where does it end? What happens when the government issues and executive order to tell us we can’t preach against homosexuality? I believe in exercising caution and safety, but arresting this man has crossed a VERY DANGEROUS line that we may not be able to come back from. There is supposed to be something called “separation between church and state”, but we all really know that is just political language that doesn’t mean anything, obviously!
Louise Cummings
I donāt know him. I hadnāt had a way to keep up with things. Until my daughter bought me this face book. We had TV at home. But we couldnāt pick up just anything. It took us years to get T B N. Then they starred adding a few more Christian channels. Now with cables like they are. You can pick up many Channels.
Louise Cummings
When they say itās ok for all this to be preached in pulpits. I donāt support it. Thatās why I donāt go the other way. They donāt wa nd t Bibles at all. And killibb N g babies is ok. I j it st canāt support that. Thatās why I say we have to go nd ack to 2 nd Chronicles 7:14. We have to turn back to letting God be God of our lives and land.
Varnel Watson
Joe Absher to answer your question This post is reference to an article which Peter Vandever wrote back in the day We have learned a lot from Toronto – seems like we are still learning a lot from Rodney today as Joseph Castillo said – in my words – we may wake up one morning like today for example and preachers be taken to jail for preaching IN AMERICA – BTW Joe such time is NO time for passive aggressiveness from the closer – it is time to STAND UP and SPEAK
Joe Absher
Thank you . I hope you understand that these threads are often hijacked and led astray . group members and even leadership want to inject their pet doctrine and their political bias . if this in fact about the necessity of gospel preaching I’m in . but I’m not going to assume that the heart of this people is for Jesus Christ and him crucified .
Varnel Watson
Peter Vandever LETS ALL face it on this one – RHB was arrested on anonymous phone call for doing exactly what GOD has called him to do – good shepherding of its people A shepherd FEEDS the sheep in time of plagues NOT send them to remote location and speak to them via a screen BUT with this precedent We WAKE UP in a NEW REALITY this morning A new social order if you will WHERE any preacher can be arrested on a simple anonymous phone call. IN AMERICA …. Despite of the the First Amendment
Varnel Watson
And Nero blamed the Christians for Rome burning. Get ready, the mass hysteria, the calling for churches to be shut down and arresting pastor’s will increase.
Vicki Mart
Many in the church lacked discernment.
Vicki Mart
Case in point. Your statement was what did we learn by that Toronto error. Now you switch it to his current activities. Apples and oranges.
Varnel Watson
Vicki Mart is it NOT the one and same person?
Vicki Mart
Troy Day People change in 26 years. Anyway, Peter says if you are going to be persecuted do it for being a christian and not a law breaker,. He was not arrested for being a christian, but because he disobeyed an order. I have a few thoughts, but I will keep them to myself.
Varnel Watson
Vicki Mart I dont think Peter Vandever ever said that but knowing for sometimes now he may have as well
Vicki Mart
Troy Day Peter the apostle did. Read his 1 Peter 4.
Varnel Watson
Vicki Mart he was arrested for a non- Constitutional order He broke it BY preaching in his church on Sunday NOT via any other way We will watch the court case and see WHAT judge will dare go against our Constitution
Vicki Mart
Troy Day put whatever spin on it, but he was told not to be in the public andd not to preach the bible. His followers always liked drama and sensationalism and I see no change all these years later. He want to return to the spotlight so he pulled that stunt. I won’t bother to answer you on this again. Blessings
Varnel Watson
So was ap. Paul sister So was Paul if THEY tell you not to believe in God, will you listen and obey them?
Varnel Watson
THANK THANK YOU very much Robert Cox did you know Romans 13 was….. Written by an apostle who spent about 6 years of in a Roman prison for civil disobedience? Did you know that??
Vicki Mart
For preaching the gospel. Stop the spinning. (actually for the Lord’s sake and not civil disobedience to regain the limelight he lost years earlier)
Varnel Watson
Vicki Mart come again? what is your argument ?
citing Stan Cooke A Full Walmart parking lot.
I did not see the Health Department
Or local police counting the people to make certain that only 10 people were in the store at one time.
There was not anyone present keeping the people
6 feet apart.
Now you convince me that this is fair to other businesses… or to Churches. This is selective enforcement.
Convince me by Law, that any of these rules, orders and regulations are Constitutional. You cannot, because everything that has been placed on the American people violates the Constitution.
Many businesses will close forever
Because of this overreach of government… because of this violation of the Constitution. Many people will have their savings depleted, their retirement destroyed, their job lost and homes repossessed.
Joe Absher
Getting arrested is no evidence of being a preacher a drunk can get arrested . neither is starting a riot evidence of anointing a homosexual can start a riot .
Further dear friends Jesus himself warned of false signs and wonders and false prophets and false Christs . please give yourself to God’s word and faithful service to him and not this constant scandal and carnal appetites .
Anonymous
That the cessationist and the Calvinist and even some Pentecostal had fits of rages and said many ugly things
Anonymous
Jerome Herrick Weymouth but did they learn anything out of it??
Anonymous
Let’s hope so!
Anonymous
Jerome Herrick Weymouth true that