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The Shepherding Movement (sometimes called the “Discipleship Movement”) was an influential and controversial movement within some British, Australian and American charismatic churches. It emerged in t
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Anyone remember what was the final fall out? Link
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Their downfall was in their authority teachings. They lorded authority over the sheep. God destroyed them because their placing of the pastors over the sheep to rule over them in His stead before His return was a purely idolatrous and blasphemous tragedy.
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Terry Wiles the original 5 were listed in the article with Derek Prince and all Peter Vandever has spoken of off spring with the Kansas 4 prophetic movement and may be Vineyard involvement
I am more concerned with the fact that the shepherding COVERING terminology like mantle, prophetic / apostolic cover etc. was exactly what NAR took from the shepherding and run with it Angel Ruiz may have more info on that particular connection
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It began out of concern for believers who were being kicked out of their churches, or were starting home fellowships, or were considering groups like the Full Gospel Businessmen or Women’s Aglow their “churches”. The situation was chaotic. The cure, unfortunately, proved worse than the disease. “Leaders” who were really novices were telling people who to marry, which house or acr to buy, etc., to an occultic level of control. Derek Prince was the first to remove himself from that, and Bob Mumford’s repentance was the most public. Eventually they all renounced it, but the damage had been done. To this day, “heavy shepherding” is still practiced by controlling leaders. If you’re in a “church” like that, FLEE!
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I was somewhat involved in the shepherding movement loosely for a few years, and was part of a shepherding community for about 1 year. My experience was that it was not as good as some people made it out to be and not a bad as some made it out to be. There were clear definite problems that took me out of it, but those problems were not necessary across the board. My initial involvement was in Pennsylvania, which in my experience did not have serious problems, then later in Colorado which was still not oppressive, and a year in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area, after which I left the movement. I did not find the PA and Colorado sheperding movements authoritarian or oppressive, but the DFW group was more so. In fact, the shepherds who were over me there contradicted the counsel of my shepherd (and long time mentor even before and after the shepherding movement) in PA. Originally, it was meant to bring some order and structure and discipline to a wild charismatic movement. It became too structured and legalistic and authoritarian, meaning well, but misapplication of Scripture. All of original Ft. Lauderdale 5 repented, and went on to have good continuing ministries, but must more low profile. The main former shepherding leader who has had a higher profile and is now well accepted is Joseph Garlington in Pittsburgh, under whom my mentor had been shepherded. The main problems I encountered with the Dallas group were disregard of the needs of women, counsel given that contradicted my former mentor/Shepherd’s counsel, and what I considered some ethical compromises.
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I think the above two shared it quite well. Being on the outside of it, Controlling ones life and family was what some of us were hearing about
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Paul L. King is it true that the Kansas 4 aka Kansas City Prophets and he Vineyard emerged from heavy shepherding? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/a-fresh-and-eye-witness-look-at-the-kansas-city/ Terry Wiles is this similar to res16 AG document done for them too? http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/topics/sptlissues_prophets_prophecies.cfm
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I am not familiar with the shepherding movement but see a need for close loving shepherding. At the same time it shouldn’t be carried too far. First, sheep are not people and people must deal with things a hundred times more difficult. Also human ” sheep” must be taught to think for themselves and to learn to listen to the Holy Spirits teaching.
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Mike Bickle, I think I recall, was in the late 1970s-early 1980s involved with the British discipleship movement led by Bryn Jones, but it dissolved too. I am not sure who all is considered part of the Kansas 4.
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Yes indeed Bickle has been discussed here with Peter Vandever as related to the big Kansas 4 While I am familiar with Prince and his discipleship / demonology Bob has been always somewhat away from my focus – in a northern / canadian way kind of. But few years ago #IHOP-KC has moved to a post-trib eschatology then then endorsed endorsed #TedCruz pre election and IMO went full kingdom-now NAR Also is Brian Zahnd related to this whole IHOP move? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/ihop-kc-has-moved-to-a-post-trib-eschatology/
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I mostly know about the movement from people I met later who had been involved in it involved in it.
When I was in college, between church and campus groups I went to different college meetings in addition to my church’s meetings. A Charismatic church in town had a meeting I went to. The pastor was a gifted teacher who had gone to Asbury at the same time as Mark Rutland. He had been in the shepherding movement with Don Basham. I seem to recall his saying elders exercising a great deal of control over your life could be terrifying.
In the Vineyard movement, they use terms like ‘covering’ which always irked me because it does not mean anything like what it means in the passage that mentions it.
I corresponded with a man who was in one of those churches in the 80s who said their elders would forbid couples to marry, even one cancelling all engagements in the church. If they found out a couple had sexual attraction for each other they would cancel the engagement. It sounded like the opposite of I Corinthians 7. It also sounded like they were intruding into the authority granted to parents and families. If the people planning to get into an adulterous remarriage or were thinking of marrying an unbeliever, or someone living a double life I can understand their getting involved.
I met an English teacher from what was called the Boston Church of Christ, then International Churches of Christ” a cessationist group into heavy control. He still believed in that group but left so he could find a wife without their interference and then go back.
Two of my wife’s cousins were in that movement in some level if responsibility in Indonesia. A nephew in my cousins care died and after the fallout from that they both ended up leaving.
I knew several of them at UGA. It was weird because many if them seemed like cookie cutter copies with the same midwestern accent.
I recognized someone as from that movement on the streets of Seoul Korea after I had just met him and he wanted to invite me to his ‘really great church’ jyst after I met him. My expat friend was amazed that I guessed wjat kind it was. I told him I could tell from the mustered enthusiasm. I had seen it before.
In 1990 or so when I went to UGA,I heard one of the Charismatic churches in town had folded. I hear they were telling one member to marry other members. They had matched up a black with a white which must have been considered newsworthy by whoever told me. The pastor of a college grpup gad gone there, to a church in the shepherding movement. Later I told him about an evangelist who wanted to send Christian students as English teachers. The college group pastor did not want to do anything with that evangelist who had been a part of that sheperding movement and he said he’d never repented or apologized.
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Vineyard IHOP or shepherding ? Link there’s no way you went to a shepherding church too along with many others 🙂
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They sell pancakes don’t they?
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Link Hudson what would you mean by very heavy shepherding I have found this to mean anything to anyone not too happy with church Means one thing for Pentecostals, another for baptists – are you referring to 10%, or who to marry or what house to buy or what?
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Link Hudson as in many serious inquires in this group I am getting the feeling you dont know much about the Shepherding movement first hand The rest is just hearsay I dont really have much use for Which shepherding church did you visit exactly? – How long did you observe it to form your view on the movement as a whole? – I also hear that northern and Canadian shepherding was much different than the South – Ft. Lauderdale dealt much different in the prophetic and deliverance ministry for example. This model was later followed in Kansas but to little use. Then the British discipleship and yes if you call that shepherding too, was a completely different story
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There really are many shepherding movements, and probably most of them are not directly influenced by the Ft. Lauderdale movement. I know of many independent charismatic and Pentecostal churches through my 48 years in the movement that have strong pastoral authoritarianism. Many such churches (including at least 2 associations of Word of Faith churches) have a top down approach in which the pastor owns the church, the building, appoints his own board, runs the church, and often says (if not stated outright, nonetheless in effect), “Touch not the anointed one.” They often claim the mantle of Moses or Elijah, and have no accountability to anyone. Another non-charismatic authoritarian approach is what is called “nouthetic counseling” (from the Greek word noutheteo, meaning admonish), founded by Presbyterian theologian/counselor Jay Adams, which is very directive and confrontative in counseling.
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short answer: control. ALSO: The Bible doesn’t teach that.
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the BIBLE doesnt teach what?
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One big, big problem is that many genuinely devout people just aren’t fit to lead anyone. You see it in every walk of life. Some are simply power hungry and exercise authority of the sake of exercising authority.
The NT calls these people “Nicolaitans”, which means “those who conquer the flock”. Jesus said he hated that.
The most recent example of this was an idiotic book by John Bevere called “Undercover”, in which he said pastors had the right to overrule any decision a church member made unless the bible said explicitly otherwise. He even said that single women, no matter what their ages, were under the authority of their fathers.
This series was presented in my SS class and I was openly very critical of it. For one thing, no one could think of a single decision, major or minor, that a pastor should make for a layman.
Would you let a pastor tell you who to marry, what to choose for a career, where to live, or what school to attend? No. Those would be major decisions.
Would you let a pastor tell you what kind of car to buy? No. That would be mid-level decision.
Would you let a pastor decide what you should eat for dinner tonight? No. That would be a minor decision. We all came to the conclusion that the series was beyond useless and potentially very damaging.
Varnel Watson
I’ve often wondered on that and Vineyard Link Hudson Peter Vandever
Casius Leonidas
Troy Day Derek Prince later regretted the idea and turned away from what the movement.
Varnel Watson
Casius Leonidas this is part true part not The man is still alive an clarify BUT was it 4 or 5 of Loderdale who made the decisions? Didnt they fly to talk to him at one down point?