Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars
Click to get our FREE MOBILE APP and stay connected
Peter A Vandever | PentecostalTheology.com
But the revelation of Evangelical Theology is attributed to Christ in regard to his Mediatorship, and to the Holy Ghost in regard to his being the appointed substitute and Advocate of Christ the Mediator. This is done most consistently and for a very just reason, both because Christ, as Mediator, is placed for the ground-work of this doctrine, and because in the duty of mediation those actions were to be performed, those sufferings endured, and those blessings asked and obtained, which complete a goodly portion of the matters that are disclosed in the gospel of Christ. ~ James Arminius
Jon Ray
…Who knows ALL from the Father who is ALL knowing Ricky Grimsley
Ricky Grimsley
I believe God knows all things that can be known.
Jon Ray
Its a no brainier since God knows even the unknown and He is the source of all knowledge. Denying that would be pure dualistic heresy
Jon Ray
Ricky Grimsley Its a no brainier since God knows even the unknown and He is the source of all knowledge. Denying that would be pure dualistic heresy John 21:17 He said, “Lord, you know all things;
Ricky Grimsley
Its ridiculous that you use that scripture continually when Jesus himself (to whom the verse refers) did not know all things. Mark 13:32 KJVS
[32] But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
David Lewayne Porter
God is a triune being.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Ricky
You base your opinion and theology of God’s knowledge on scriptures concerning Christ’s knowledge outside of unity with The Father within the God-Head.
You seem to overlook the scriptures referring to knowledge that the Father has which He has in addition to that knowledge the Son has.
That being the case (God) still knows it and contains the knowledge.
That is like saying a car can’t blow a horn as you look at it’s tire.
No the tire can’t blow the horn because it is a part of the car.
But the car as a whole using the steering wheel can blow the horn.
I suggest that you enlarge your concept of God as a whole and triune being and not concentrate so much on the individual essence outside of the God-Head.
Ricky Grimsley
God still only knows what can be known.
David Lewayne Porter
And ALL can be known
1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
We know in part.
So Paul refers to an implied knowledge yet that WE will receive in the future.
Where will that knowledge come from?
The one that created all things (remember the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?).
So Ricky
There is yet knowledge which by us can still be known – but not in our present state.
Now (where I will lose you).
Where does the Bible say that the GOD-HEAD as a WHOLE does not have this knowledge already?
It doesn’t, that is man’s interpretation to exalt humanity and lessen (God – as a whole).
Jon Ray
Well we cannot just disregard the Bible in order to prove some entirely un-biblical concept as that contradicts God’s omnicience and ominpotence as well as 138 Bible Verses about God being All knowing http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God,-All-Knowing Job 21:22 “Can anyone teach God knowledge, In that He judges those on high?
Ricky Grimsley
Im not disregarding the bible. I just quoted it too you. Just think logically. God has all power that can be had. Can he all things……no. He cant lie. Can he go back in time and make something not happen…..no because it already happened. Its not logically possible. Can God make an object so heavy that he cant pick up….no. Likewise be cannot know what cannot be known.
Jon Ray
The BIBLE literally says in 1 John 3:20
for God is greater than our heart and knows all things
pretty straight forward from any theological view if you ask me
Ricky Grimsley
Depart from me i never knew you…… Sounds like something God says he doesnt know (even if its relational).
Jon Ray
But He did know them. And knew their beings and doings. And it is for the very reason of knowing their hearts that He chose not to know them any more – the perception word here covers namely the the all-knowingness of God i.e. even without knowing them He knew them well enough to reject them. Read the whole verse and you will see. It actually proves God well knows all things in the future…
Ricky Grimsley
Lol there is no way you can legitimately win this argument. Your view is contradictory.
Jon Ray
Seriously. Did you even read the whole verse? God is prophesying that in the future, in that day (that is not yet happened ) He will tell these people exactly what they did and why they are being cast out 🙂 Pls. note that Jesus said all this long before it will happen OR are you in the same boat with Charles Page and believe this already happened in 70 AD?
Charles Page
Jon Ray true fellowSHIP is riding in the same boat I am on!!!!
Jon Ray
21st century is the time to get rid of all boats and start walking on the water. There’s a fine reason Cortes burnt his ships…
Charles Page
if two ride together in a leaky canoe they will sink together.
Jon Ray
Open theism is a theological boat with an open bottom
Charles Page
was he a state overseer?
Charles Page
dispensationalism is a boat with a parenthetical escape hatch on the bottom!!
Jon Ray
Come on Ricky Grimsley read your Bible some “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’…” – is that not God knowing all the future that has not yet happened ???
Charles Page
Jon Ray no no that is Calvinism.
Jon Ray
Yours Charles Page ? http://www.easttntrader.com/Lost_and_Found.htm Alan N Carla Smith can help
Ricky Grimsley
Gods knows the nature of humanity. People will lie in that day. The fact of that matter is that God says he does no “know” something also in this verse. Your view contradicts itself. Mine does not b
Jon Ray
Yeah that is not what the verse you quoted says. It is very very specific as of what God knows and it is basically all – God knows it all. Being from Texas you should know when you shoot yourself in the foot to get someone else to drive you to the hospital 🙂 Just dont get Charles Page to drive you on a horseless carriage
Ricky Grimsley
How can God know all if he “never knew” someone on that day?
Ricky Grimsley
Whatever label you put on that knowledge… It says he doesnt have it.
Charles Page
Jon Ray that verse is a judgement after death and not predetermined but forthtold. There is an appointment with death and after that the judgement. This is the dividing the sheep from the goats
Ricky Grimsley
It would be nice if people would just accept the truth about the implications of their positions. The bible contradicts the view of exhaustive foreknowledge and exhaustive foreknowledge contradicts free will.
Jon Ray
“Depart from me i never knew you…” is prophetic and reveals God knows all things future…
Ricky Grimsley
Obviously its a prophecy but still he says “i never knew”. What is the definition of “never” and “know” in you world?
Jon Ray
1 John 3:20 is pretty straight forward. Cant twist the Bible or we will have no Bible to stand on. Furthermore, no theological system can fully support open theism with so many holes. If you suspect God does not know all you have to admit God cannot do all things and so on… for how can he do the things that are not known to open theism? Except the Bible speaks completely the opposite – God knew all things before they were created or existed. And with this knowledge in mind He crated them ex nahillo – out of the nothingness of the not yet existing creation but from the all knowingness of His eternal being. The Bible connects it all. Cannot have an all powerful God without him having the power to know all things before they ever were and/or without the having the power to bring them all into existence…
Jon Ray
Ricky Grimsley The question should be what does GOD mean when He says He never knew them, since most obviously He fore-knew all there was to know about them?
Ricky Grimsley
If you believe that God foreknows everyone then you have to believe that everyone goes to heaven. Because whom he didi foreknow he did be predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son…..
Jon Ray
1 John 3:20 is pretty straight forward. Cant twist the Bible or we will have no Bible to stand on. Furthermore, no theological system can fully support open theism with so many holes. If you suspect God does not know all you have to admit God cannot do all things and so on… for how can he do the things that are not known to open theism? Except the Bible speaks completely the opposite – God knew all things before they were created or existed. And with this knowledge in mind He crated them ex nahillo – out of the nothingness of the not yet existing creation but from the all knowingness of His eternal being. The Bible connects it all. Cannot have an all powerful God without him having the power to know all things before they ever were and/or without the having the power to bring them all into existence…
Ricky Grimsley
If you believe God knew all things from before creation then your God is no different than the Calvinist God and this conversation is meaningless.
Jon Ray
One year after Arminius’ death in 1610 his followers, now known as Arminians and led by Episcopius, presented a remonstrance (protest) to the civil authorities of Holland organized under five heads or articles. They objected to the doctrines contained in the Belgic Confession of faith and Heidelberg catechism. They objected specifically to those doctrines relating to divine sovereignty, human inability, unconditional election or predestination, particular redemption, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of the saints. They insisted that the confession and the catechism be revised to reflect their doctrinal position. Too, they demanded a full toleration for the profession of their views. This action procured for them the designation of the Remonstrants, while their opponents are often called Contra-remonstrants.
Roger Nicole, in Baker’s Dictionary of Theology, p. 64, summarizes the five articles contained in the Remonstrance as follows:
1. God elects or reproves on the basis of foreseen faith or unbelief.
2. Christ died for all men and for every man, although only believers are saved.
3. Man is so depraved that divine grace is necessary unto faith of any good deed.
4. This grace may be resisted.
5. Whether all who are truly regenerate will certainly persevere in the faith is a point which needs further investigation. – – – So Ricky Grimsley what precisely do you claim different than the above?
Ricky Grimsley
Its really sad that people talk about how God is great and loves us so much but yet they turn right around and say God created us knowing all the evil that would happen and it was his will.
Ricky Grimsley
Number 1
Jon Ray
Seems like regarding the foreknowledge of God and the human will, you well hold the following tenets are commonly held by Arminians:
(1) God’s knowledge of the future acts of free agents is mediate.
(2) God’s decrees are based on his foreknowledge: election on foreseen faith, and reprobation on foreseen resistance to grace.
(3) The external call of the gospel is accompanied by a universal sufficient grace which can be resisted.
(4) Repentance and faith precede regeneration.
(5) The human will is to be viewed as one of the causes of regeneration.
(6) As long as one lives one may fall away from grace and lose salvation altogether. – – So how is your open/close/half-shut theism different than classic armenianism ???
David Lewayne Porter
God is a triune being.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Ricky
You base your opinion and theology of God’s knowledge on scriptures concerning Christ’s knowledge outside of unity with The Father within the God-Head.
You seem to overlook the scriptures referring to knowledge that the Father has which He has in addition to that knowledge the Son has.
That being the case (God) still knows it and contains the knowledge.
That is like saying a car can’t blow a horn as you look at it’s tire.
No the tire can’t blow the horn because it is a part of the car.
But the car as a whole using the steering wheel can blow the horn.
I suggest that you enlarge your concept of God as a whole and triune being and not concentrate so much on the individual essence outside of the God-Head.
Ricky Grimsley
All i was saying about christ’s knowledge was that he didnt have all-knowledge while he was incarnate. It was the other guy who kept “lord thou knowest all things” as proof that God knows all things whe Jesus did not know all things while on earth.
David Lewayne Porter
Ricky
And there we have it.
You are not talking about God’s know but simply the knowledge of Christ (which He himself admitted He did not contain completely on His own by Himself). He said that of Himself and by himself.
Jon Ray
Ricky from all you have said you are a classic Armenian. Dont let open theism confuse you good Pentecostal beliefs 🙂 David Lewayne Porter How exactly does one “enlarge your concept of God” I really need to know how this “enlargement” model really works 🙂 Terry Wiles
David Lewayne Porter
Enlarge your concept of God. ..
Simple as already stated…
Do not just look at
The Father alone
The Son alone
The Spirit alone.
Look at them as they function within the God-Head, the Trinity.
The three together as one in purposes and essence.
That is where the (UPC) Jesus only miss it.
Jesus did all He did under direction of the Father. To remove that fact/reality lessens Christ, the Father and (God) as a whole.
That is how we enlarge our concept of God.
PSALMS talks about exalting God/The Lord.
We do that from our view of Him.
God can’t get any bigger, but our view and understanding of Him does (the 3 in one – GOD).
Ricky Grimsley
All open-theism is….is consistent Arminianism. I just dont believe God has exhaustive foreknowledge. I believe exhaustive foreknowledge prevents freewill
David Lewayne Porter
You believe.
Enough said
(The Bible does not say that, nor imply it), man chooses to interpret it that way due to their limited knowledge and understanding.
Ricky Grimsley
Depart from me i never knew you? Whatever he means by that it is still something that God himself says he doesnt know.
Ricky Grimsley
If your are consistent with this train of thought you would have to say that God doesnt even have thoughts. That he is just in a constant state of knowing. However we know God has thoughts. We also know that his will is frequently not accomplished. Do you really believe that there was a moment that God decided to do anything? These are the implications of what you believe.
David Lewayne Porter
Knew in what sense Ricky?
Will God not judge them according to theircwords, every idle word, and their actions or lack thereof?
So how does God keep a record of those He does not know?
You may want to check your choice in definition of know, and see it’s very limited scope in view of God, eternity, and He entire purpose/plan.
David Lewayne Porter
Ricky
You would have to say God does not have thoughts.
I would have to do no such thing.
Ricky Grimsley
David Lewayne Porter thats not for me to explain. All i have to be believe is that the scripture means God has no relationship with that person. In your view God has “all knowledge”. With that view he still has all relational knowledge even though he clearly says that he doesnt. Thats why i said you would have to say that God has no thoughts when obviously you dont believe that. But to be consistent with your view God cant have thoughts because he already has all knowledge. Its simple reasoning.
David Lewayne Porter
Simple reasoning.
That is the issue right there.
Carnal humanistic knowledge trying to explain an infinite God.
Knowing in part just as the scriptures say.
You think you can figure out God (The 3 in one as the God-Head) with your knowledge, limited – in part knowledge.
I hold to Scripture (all of them).
If your belief system holds true
Why is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit held to a higher standard that blasphemy against the Son?
They are both still part if the God-Head.
Isn’t it still blasphemy against God? Lying was…Acts 5:3&4.
God is triune, you just can’t separate one out and then dissect them against each other(s).
They are not in opposition to each other, they are in perfect harmony.
Did Jesus conceive Himself?
No the God-Head did (through the Spirit) yet it was still God.
Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
God created the Heavens and the earth.
How, the Father did through the Son
John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
You are trying to break down the whole by using it’s parts…
Have you ever tried to blow your car horn using your tire?
Jon Ray
Ricky Grimsley Is exhaustive foreknowledge = all knowigness of God? Charles Page Repentance and faith precede regeneration. They cannot be defined by original sin (or any sin of that matter). The human will is to be viewed as one of the causes of regeneration which is post-salvific. Hence the need for sanctiication! As long as one lives one may fall away from grace and lose salvation altogether.
Ricky Grimsley
Exhaustive foreknowledge is knowledge you claim God has.
Jon Ray
This claim is highly philosophical the way you present it whole the discussion on the all knowledge of God is more of a spiritual one rather than philosophical. The err of open theism is taking humanistic approach to explain logically how God can (1) know the future but (2) yet allow free will. The humanistic philosophical approach takes one part of the Bible and says if God can do this he should not be able to do also at the same time that (from other parts of the Bible) because this would contradict human logic. Too bad! God does not concern Himself with being the proper subject of human logic. The spiritual approach says simply Yes He can! God can all. God knows all. God is in all and for all!
David Lewayne Porter
Exactly
Ricky Grimsley
I still think you guys just dont see what i am saying. Its not just about mans philosophy. Its about reconciling the scriptures. God does concern himself with our reasoning. He gave us 66 books. There is alot more to the books than “behold i am god i know everything. Serve me or die”.
David Lewayne Porter
Ricky Grimsley
Exactly
It is about reconciling the scriptures (all of them). All 66 books which shows God’s unlimited sovereignty, unlimited power.
Yes God does say (here I am, I am God).
The Bible is not to prove God, it starts with Him as a fact.
He then lays out His Foreknowledge and plan with purpose and intent for us and mankind.
He offers us the free will to choose.
But you are right it is more than that.
It is about a real, eternal, and personal relationship between us and our creator.
Not forced or coerced, but freely, lovingly, chosen and given.
You present a God that helps us stumble through life and hopefully into eternity (because He can’t know in perfection and entirely how to get us there).
That God is about like the God of the Jehovah Witnesses.
He can give bodies that live forever, but can’t give bodies that can forever die in the fire and brimstone of the lake of torment.
I reject your stance as I reject their’s on those grounds.
I don’t need a god like that.
That is not the God of the Bible or God-Head.
Ricky Grimsley
So you prefer a God that created the world dooming billions to eternal fire and child cancer and every other horrible thing knowing he could have chosen another way?
Charles Page
I have often complained to God about causing cancer in children and he just laughs!
Ricky Grimsley
I dont complain about it because i dont believe it.
David Lewayne Porter
God did not cause it Charles
Check your Bible.
A reprobate humanity did.
Charles Page
all descendants of Adam are reprobate.
Charles Page
because of the curse of God against them, beginning with Adam and Eve.
David Lewayne Porter
Charles
Exactly,
So much for God causing it or Him being impotent.
That was one powerful piece of fruit.
A powerful enough piece of fruit to cause a change to everything, everything except The All-powerful God that created it.
Charles Page
He formed the shadow of turning!
Ricky Grimsley
But in your view God put the tree in the garden of eden knowing 100 percent they would eat it. Was the fall his purpose. Why did he remove them from the garden and curse them for doing what he made them do. He could have chose to make the world another way but chose this? For what purpose….to glorify himself? Its ridiculous to me that God would go through all this to play all this out already knowing with 100 % accuracy every detail from before he had even himself spoken a word. At least if you guys would admit that the future in your view was set in stone from the beginning….at least it would be consistent.
Ricky Grimsley
I think people need to jeremiah 18 one more time.
David Lewayne Porter
Yet
HE
is the Father of Lights
In HIM is
NO variableness or shadow of turning
(HE is NOT His creation.
He does not depend on His creation, His creation depends upon HIM.
What He allows does not determine who He is.
James 1:17-18
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
David Lewayne Porter
Ricky Grimsley
If it was set in stone as you tend to push constantly, then there would be no human freewill.
God MUST allow time to progress and us to freely make those choices inorder to be just and fair in addition to keeping with His characteristic of freewill.
Until you can work that into your theology, well you are stuck in this circular track.
As far as Jeremiah 18.
I am fine with that.
Again God allows us to come to a place of personal choice and then gives us the justice of those choices.
Did you not ever give your kids a choice of right or wrong with a threat of consequences for the bad knowing ahead of time that you were giving the good? How could you do that because you knew your kids and their personalities better then them.
You also knew their response to the punishments and rewards and how that would effect their decision.
That proves God’s power, knowledge, love, ability to allow freewill (etc).
Ricky Grimsley
I dont see how you can believe in free-will and believe that God already knows all our choices from before time began. If he knows them then they cant change because already has all knowledge according to you. So as far back as our little minds can go, God saw every face that would be in hell (which is most) and chose to create that world in just that way. I just don see that as consistent or just. Its certainly not the language the bible uses. God makes several choices, asks for advice, and changes his mind. In fact the fact that he repents that he made man should be enough to disprove exhaustive foreknowledge.
Charles Page
Ricky Grimsley Arminiamism (not a country but a Christian view of sotierology)
Ricky Grimsley
I know the difference between arminianism and armenia.
Charles Page
Ricky Grimsley I know that but everyone doesn’t know that!!
Charles Page
not everyone is as smart as us!!!
David Lewayne Porter
David Lewayne Porter
Glad you two finally figured it out
Ricky Grimsley
Lol.
Charles Page
It is the Russian that does not understand it!!
David Lavoie
God views time from all points in the position of eternity.
Jon Ray
Ricky Grimsley if you deny omnicience you deny omnipotence too. How do you reconcile with such argument? How can GOD do ALL things without having knowledge of ALL things?
Ricky Grimsley
I feel the same way about omnipotence. God has all power that can be had.
David Lewayne Porter
I realize all of that is a result of man doing it his way
rebelling against an all knowing God that warned us ahead of time.
Do you realize that is the question?
We are just as guilty as them because we don’t take God at His Word and for who He is.
Billions are doomed to eternal fire because they reject Him through their freewill.
Calvary is their chance and each/everyday they still reject it/Him accepting their justice, judgement, and punishment. That is what you call God’s righteousness, and holiness, and Him being just.
Why don’t you just slam physical death, it is simply another result of the same failure because we chose our way. God has left it in place post Calvary as well as the issues that you set forth.
Could God not have stopped it?
OH He did His part. HE warned them in advance and they chose their way. He gave them paradise and all but one simple tree.
Could He have stopped them, yes
But He would have denied His characteristic of freewill. That is just as much and real part of Himself as all of His other characteristics. Can God deny Himself – it is a question answered in your Bible.
All of your questions, answers, and theology that says otherwise is explained in the Bible also,
It says everyman is a liar, let God be true.
Romans 3:3-4
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
As far as God stopping it and them, the tree with the knowledge that would cause failure He placed it in the garden, and made it desirable to be looked at, taken, and eaten. Yet He left it up to them, personally.
Child cancer is a sad but true result of man’s rebellion.
Here is the question for you if you believe the God of the Bible as you say,
Where are the people with understanding of a God [(that stumbles through this human existence (as you present) since you understand him better than us]], that justly live by faith with healing in their beings (hands, prayers).
So why complain, ???
Do something about it.
Where are your gifts of the Spirit
One being gift(s) of healing…?
The guilt lays at the feet of the human race and the church that possesses (or should) the gifts of the Spirit – one being healing – not the gift of healing, but giftS of healing.
It seems you (project) and refuse humankind accountability.
Just as it happened in the beginning in the garden.
Well,
Happy healing
my Spirit filled brother.
Charles Page
according to Arminians (COG) God is unable to do anything against the will of man. He is impotent. Some go so far as saying he is willingly impotent. My belief if I was Arminian is that god couldn’t even if he willed to
Jon Ray
Charles your information is outdated and often confusing. Armenian belief (as posted above): God can do all but chose not to at times. Human will does not rule him. God allows it
Charles Page
I have many Armenian friends and I am not certain what they believe. Some are Pentecostal. The father of FGBM was Armenian.
David Lewayne Porter
Agreed my brother, agreed
Jon Ray
Charles Page
god is impotent
Jon Ray
projection?
Charles Page
Your god is arbitary. He flows like smoke, fashionaly whimsical!
Jon Ray
Projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to other…
Charles Page
I can see why people say your god is loving.
David Lewayne Porter
Jon Ray
Yes, projecting his short coming in understanding God in His entirety to others as if they are misunderstanding.
Projecting, projection.
David Lewayne Porter
Charles
What
Your god isn’t loving?
Does your Bible not include John 3:15, 16 & 17. (Continuing through verse 21).
Ricky Grimsley
How can you even say that God makes choices if he already knew everything from before the world began. Choices require multiple possibilities of which there is only one if God already knows.
Jon Ray
Ricky Grimsley I think I am with David Lewayne Porter on this one. If you believe in God who knows it all and can do it all, how far are you from believing that God does not have the know-how and the power to be at all places at the same time ???
Terry Wiles
Theology 101. God is all knowing. His foreknowledge is not causal.
David Lavoie
At least not always.
🙂 (y)
Jon Ray
AMEN and AMEN !!!
Ricky Grimsley
Im just asking for people to realize the implications of what they believe and to be consistent.
Jon Ray
Well Ricky if we start denying the all knowledge of God, and the all power of God and the all presence of God we end up with a pretty partial God… and might as well turn to primitive baptists Charles Page
Ricky Grimsley
I do not deny that God has all knowledge. He just doesnt have knowledge that doesnt exist.
David Lewayne Porter
Exactly, and all things exists to Him.
John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
How does this verse relate.
HE had the knowledge in advance, before He created it all, before the created beings and things realized they were even existing.
It issue was in the inability of the created to comprehend it all.
Ricky Grimsley
This is probably the most frustrating conversation i have ever had because we cant ever get to the core issue.
Ricky Grimsley
If you really believe that God knows every detail of every event including his own actions from before creation…..then the future cant change. God cant change his mind either. He cant have feelings either. Again the problem is that “in the beginning” calvinism and arminianism is the same. Set future…only cause God.
David Lewayne Porter
Only in your eyes by your limited theology.
I have no problem reconciling them.
Ricky Grimsley
In your view, is not the future settled? At least in God’s mind. He either knows it perfectly or does not. If he does then the future is settled in the act of creation either by decree or by perfect knowledge. Free will cant really exist in your view.
David Lewayne Porter
Yes it does.
It is our choice to make.
HE just knows in advance what we will do.
The knowing in advance does not change the freewill of mankind.
You see,
you are trying to limit man’s choices due to God’s foreknowledge.
And limit God’s foreknowledge by man’s choices.
Never are correct.
Just as you say God can’t have thoughts due to no choices.
Yet the creation began with it being a thought with the God-Head.
As far as your question
The future settled in God’s eyes – yes, He knows what is going to happen because He is already there (time was created for man – not God).
The future settled for man,
Not until he gets to it and makes his choice.
I love the way you try to tell me what I can, do believe
And what my view can and can’t possess – when you can’t even grasp what I am saying ((since we have gone over this several times already)).
Ricky Grimsley
I understand what you believe. I just do understand how you can say the future is settled for God but not us. There is only one future.
David Lewayne Porter
Is there a future for God?
A day as 1,000 years, and 1,000 years as a day.
Time is for man, not God.
If you can’t understand that then you can’t understand what I believe.
You fool yourself in thinking that you do.
Ricky Grimsley
Again i understand what you are saying. I just think you are making a conflicting statement and calling it faith. I feel you would also say God can also do all things even though we know that it’s impossible for god to lie.
David Lewayne Porter
Lying is a sin and weakness.
God is incapable of sin and weakness seeing it conflicts with His other attributes.
Numbers 23:19
There you go trying to explain God in conflict of Scripture and with humanistic reasoning again.
Ricky Grimsley
Im pointing out in relation to the other argument. The bible say “with God all things are possible” and also says its not possible for him to lie. In my view these statements dont contradict because i see god can do all logical things but cant lie because his word is truth. Whatever he says makes actual truth. It the say way God knows all things that can be known. All thoughts, All possibilities, desires, all facts, etc….. But to say that God knows all future events contradicts all scriptures of god thinking, changing his mind, and testing people. Why would God test us to find out what he already knows about a person who cant change from before the world was created.
Ricky Grimsley
Also i believe the “God is outside of time” argument makes no sense. Do you believe that God could return to the past and change history if we prayed hard enough. Could he make me not exist? No. He could erase me from people’s memory but he would always know.
Ricky Grimsley
David Lewayne Porter and again how can you say God has all power and is incapable in the same sentence.
David Lewayne Porter
Ricky
Let’s use your “God knows all things that can be known, all thoughts, all possibilities, desires, all facts, ect….”.
God is The Facts.
He is not bound by us, our thoughts, feelings, actions, etc.
You have the pottery controlling the potter.
My view does not contridict all scripture of God thinking (changing) His mind, testing people – testing people He has to allow people to make their own personal freewill choices or He denies Himself and that characteristic of His being. Just because He allows them that freedom does not show limitation on His part. (Do you know what the definition of meekness is? Meekness is power under restraint = self control. So where must people see meekness as weakness, it is actually veiled strength). So it is with the view you set forth.
Do you read all of the scriptures so straight forward (God is a Spirit, but yet He has eyes, ears, hands, arms, wings?….)
Look at this one
Psalms 78:41
Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
Did they limit God?
No, they refused Him as who He is/was and limited the revealed person of who He is actually and was and what He could have done for them at that time in their situation.
Can we enlarge God making Him bigger?
Psalms 34:3
O magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt his name together.
You are correct that God can’t lie.
His Word is truth and power.
It creates with the life contained therein.
IF He tried to lie, it would be truth as it left His [lips], because all of creation is upheld by His Word.
Why would God test us…. already knows,
Because if He does not afford us the free will opportunity to make that (pre-known) choice He would not be just.
Here one for you,
“He calleth those things which were not as if they were”
Was it Abraham, or God, or was it actually (both)?
There is a good word study.
David Lewayne Porter
Outside time makes no sence?
Return to the past to change it because WE want it? If we pray hard enough,,,
Humanistic theology and God obeys us is what I just heard, I do believe.
You see it is not “praying hard enough”. It is praying in faith, not harder (book of James), pray believing.
Jesus said,
John 15:7
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
PLEASE notice MY WORDS Abide In You. You see it is not what we want unless HE wants it too.
Remember “Thy will be done – in earth as in heaven”, in earth, we are earthen vessels housing His treasure.
When has God’s will ever been to backup, return to a time in history, etc.
IF that was His plan don’t you think IF that was HIS intention and plan that HE would have done it before His son was placed on the cross at Calvary?
God is not about returning mankind to history – time past. When has He ever tried to backup in time?
He is about moving us forward to the day of judgement and then eternity with Him in the New Heaven and New Earth.
As far as Him always knowing you, yes (so back to your argument on Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.)
Does He know them or not?
Why on earth are you arguing a humanistic stance and view point in total opposition to Scripture and lack of spiritual understanding.
Ricky Grimsley
My argument isnt humanistic. All it is is just reconciling the tension in the verses. Matthew 7:23. I understand its relational. Perfectly fine in my view. However, if you believe that God has all knowledge than he can lack nothing not even relational knowledge.
Ricky Grimsley
God is a spirit but God also has a body with eyes and ears etc. Jesus is the express image of he invisible.
Ricky Grimsley
This conversation would have been over long ago it we could have just agreed that the future is settled. It either is or isnt. There is no in between. There is only truth.
David Lewayne Porter
Future is settled from God’s vantage point.
Not from man’s.
Man has not gotten there yet to make his freewill choices.
?
There is no tension of verses unless you…..
2 Peter 3:15-16
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
(Relational knowledge, God has several ways of relating to a person.
He knows all because their spirit came from Him and will return unto Him.
Yet as their Saviour and Redeemer who gives them access to His eternal kingdom no He does not know them, he can’t – as you said all knowledge that can be known.
(2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day). Notice they say they know whom – not that they know in whom.
There is a difference in know someone and knowing about someone.
How is God going to pass judgement on someone He does not know?
He will know them as judge, but not in a redemptive Spiritual way.
So I can head you off at your next point of discussion,
God can not know wickness, evil, or sin in a personal way.
Reconcile these two verses
(Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin).
But and yet
(2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him).
Can He, did He, does He know what sin is like having never sinned yet becoming sin for us?
And my theology does embrace all of these questions and more.
You did not answer (if God has eyes, ears, hands and arms)
Does He have wings?
It is Scripture also.
As far as this conversation would gave been over long ago,,
No.
You leave too many holes with a god who is weak and needy in areas that does me no good for this life, salvation, or eternity.
He can’t control eternity because He is not fully able to control things now.
If He can’t handle man’s thoughts. Choices, and decisions now how in the name of the god-head can he handle satan, the fallen angels, the dragon, the false prophet, the beast, the antichrist, the harlot, great babylon, and rebellious man?
Nope,
I don’t need him.
Can’t use him.
he can’t help me.
Ricky Grimsley
I dont understand you “vantage point” argument. Its either settled or not.
David Lewayne Porter
And that is where you have the issue.
God is not limited in the ways man is.
Ricky Grimsley
So the phrase ” neither came it into my mind that they should do this” means what ?Jeremiah 32:35 KJVS
[35] And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
David Lewayne Porter
Jeremiah 32:35 YLT
And they build the high places of Baal, that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.
does God indeed have a mind?
What about a heart?
It never entered into His mind.
According to Jeremiah 32.
Written in 589BC for Israel and Juda – Jeremiah’s ministry was 626BC through 585BC.
Yet in 591BC – 6 years before tells us in Eze 23:37 that the same situation happen in Israel.
In 592BC – 7 years before tells us in Eze 20:31 that it happened yet again in Israel.
And way back in 730BC 2 Kings 17:17 tells us that Israel and Juda were making their sons and daughters pass through the fire.
145 years before your Jeremiah 32:35.
So if you hold to that exact translation as in your KJV(s) then yet again you have an issue.
Was God simply not paying attention or did he forget to keep notes.
The question has to be asked, “didn’t God know the depravity that man could and would stoop to in his fallen state”?
We see “yes” in Genesis 6 with Noah and the flood and as we saw above in an exact situation that preceded your Jeremiah by at easy 145 years.
You may want to re-think that one.
I am waiting for you to explain how He has wings…..
But to your scripture and point
It can also be translated as, “I never intented for them to stoop so low as to do this thing”.
You could also relate it to when you hear bad news about someone and exclaim, “are you serious”, or “I just can’t believe it”.
So my brother,
Tension among verses.?
Not really.
David Lewayne Porter
Ricky Grimsley
Here it is again
Jeremiah 32:35 YLT
And they build the high places of Baal, that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.
does God indeed have a mind?
What about a heart?
It never entered into His mind.
According to Jeremiah 32.
Written in 589BC for Israel and Juda – Jeremiah’s ministry was 626BC through 585BC.
Yet in 591BC – 6 years before tells us in Eze 23:37 that the same situation happen in Israel.
In 592BC – 7 years before tells us in Eze 20:31 that it happened yet again in Israel.
And way back in 730BC 2 Kings 17:17 tells us that Israel and Juda were making their sons and daughters pass through the fire.
145 years before your Jeremiah 32:35.
So if you hold to that exact translation as in your KJV(s) then yet again you have an issue.
Was God simply not paying attention or did he forget to keep notes.
The question has to be asked, “didn’t God know the depravity that man could and would stoop to in his fallen state”?
We see “yes” in Genesis 6 with Noah and the flood and as we saw above in an exact situation that preceded your Jeremiah by at easy 145 years.
You may want to re-think that one.
I am waiting for you to explain how He has wings…..
But to your scripture and point
It can also be translated as, “I never intented for them to stoop so low as to do this thing”.
You could also relate it to when you hear bad news about someone and exclaim, “are you serious”, or “I just can’t believe it”.
So my brother,
Tension among verses.?
Not really.
Ricky Grimsley
Well i cant dispute the sequence and dates you mention without some study. However, whether heart or mind it still boils down to God expressing some surprise or emotion that wouldnt make any sense when dealing with a God that cant be surprised or have any new thoughts since these people are only doing what he always knew they would do.
Terry Wiles
Then there is no truth in any prophecy and the Old Testament prophecies are no better than a lottery ticket.
David Lewayne Porter
Nice way to put it
Ricky Grimsley
The truth is in Gods power to make it happen. Just ask pharoah.
Terry Wiles
Ricky Grimsley No, the truth in in God’s Word. At least that is what Jesus said when He was talking to God about us who would follow Him.
David Lewayne Porter
Nice Terry,
Very nice.
Ricky Grimsley
That would make a good bumper sticker but its a little vague for me to respond to. Are you referring to the Bible as Gods word or jesus or every word that would proceed from the mouth of God as he directs us spiritually?
Terry Wiles
The Bible as Gods word which is the word that proceeds from the mouth of God. John 17.
Ricky Grimsley
The Bible is God’s word but is it all of God’s word. Is the Bible “every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”. Dont you believe God speaks today? Like prophecy at church. Dont you believe that someone could prophesy that i need to do a certain thing so that a certain thing can happen and it be from God but not actually written in he Bible some where.
Terry Wiles
You should start with believing the written word before you get off on subjective prophecy. Sometimes I think you are a troll. Other times it’s like one who is always learning yet never coming to the knowledge of the truth.
Ricky Grimsley
Here i took a selfie for you.
Charles Page
Pre-mils don’t believe they are full filled and will not live to see them full filled
David Lewayne Porter
Not correct Charles.
Even the souls stored under the altar will have full knowledge of current happenings.
Ricky Grimsley
Its not like a lottery ticket. God makes it happen. John 19:36 KJVS
[36] For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
The things were restrained by God for a sign. He picked the signs in the past and made them happen in the future. They were done because of the scriptures not written down because they were foreseen.
Terry Wiles
God foresees. That is correct.
Ricky Grimsley
I said not foreseen.
Ricky Grimsley
Its ridiculous for you guys to even engage with me in this conversation if believe the future can not change.
Terry Wiles
The future can change but God has foreknowledge of it.
Charles Page
where are the ten toes?
Jon Ray
Dont point fingers to the Finger of God, Charles 🙂
Charles Page
I pointing to the toes God’s prophet told us about.
David Lavoie
Elaborate. 🙂 please. 🙂
Jon Ray
If stand toe to toe with God you may just see Him face to face
Charles Page
what if I was a midget?
Kenneth Copeland would see him face to face!!
Ricky Grimsley
God has all power and he raises up kings and gets them to do his will. He can certainly arrange for 10 kings to form a coalition and serve the antichrist (if you are referring to Daniel’s prophecy
Varnel Watson
God has all power [period] God knows all things that could or could not be known [period] [period] [period]
Ricky Grimsley
If you believe God knows everything….do you also believe that the future is set in stone?
Jon Ray
Ricky you’ve already asked this many times – the future is set exactly the way GOD wills it. Hence we pray Thy will be done… If He wills to allow human will to form the future its fine If He doesnt will that it is fine too. Both are perfectly Biblical. And it is in this very tension (not understandable or explanatory by humanistic logic) that God operates in the case of humanity on this green earth. So simple and yet…
Ricky Grimsley
But Gods will is not always done.
Ricky Grimsley
If you believe the future is settled, what is the real difference between your view and calvinism.
Jon Ray
I dont think any Arminian believes that at all Ricky Grimsley
Ricky Grimsley
If God knows the future then the future is settled.
Charles Page
trying to see which god I like…sometimes so hard to choose!
Ricky Grimsley
Arminians dont follow the implications of what they believe to the end result.
Charlie Robin
Not true but still a good discussion for a group where many say there’s not much theological discussion 🙂
Ricky Grimsley
This discussion is a classic example of what i just said. The implications of a God with perfect foreknowledge is a settled future from before the creation of the world. The implication is the only difference between calvinism and arminianism did God decree all things to be as they are or did he create knowing all things would be as they are. Its still a settled future starting from whenever God had his one and only first thought.
David Lewayne Porter
Yawn
Charlie Robin
With all due respect Ricky the discussion is a fine example of your western white texan (I dont want to say southern b/c of Charles) example of understanding Arminianism via the scope of your own life experience and matrix-ing it on any given theological system. Try understanding Arminianism as based on theological ideas of the Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560–1609) and his historic supporters known as Remonstrants and see how many of your “views” and “understandings” on Arminianism will have to be dropped right the way…
Henry Volk
I see the Bible as a witness to God’s revelation which was given in history. The Bible becomes the Word of God when the Holy Spirit makes it God’s word for and to us.
Charlie Robin
True about the BIBLE – Ricky Grimsley Classical Arminians believe that the universal, convicting (but resistible) ministry of the Holy Spirit creates the space necessary for the genuinely free human response to the gospel in the form of love to God. This is where Weslyan renewal and Pentecostalism find foundation for rooting their experiential theology within the scope of classic reformed thinking while at the same time we preserve the spirit filled blend between reason and experience
YES Arminians agree with classical Calvinists that only by the unilateral action of God can a human being come to saving faith in Christ and that God’s grace, not human free will, is the ultimate ground and cause of salvation.
Most theologians who attack Arminians strike at contemporary Arminianism, but miss classical Arminianism. Yet, Classical Arminians subscribe to a much wider view of God’s grace than do classical Calvinists. And finally, all Classical Arminians believe the Bible teaches that human beings can (successfully and tragically) resist the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit; which reason your proposed necessity for open theism highly illogical and completely unnecessary within the perimeter of the Weslyean / Pentecostal renewal tradition. For this reason alone all this time your position have failed to show how and why open theism (in the form proposed) is even necessary within the Weslyean / Pentecostal renewal tradition. Though it could be proposed that some charistmatics raised in the reformed tradition may experience the need you propose.
Most efforts here have most certainly not been to advocate for the version of Arminianism most commonly visible today. But I am advocating for the version that Arminius himself articulated, that Wesley defended, and that appears (to me and many others) to comport more fully with the Bible’s message than other views: that a sovereign God, full of love, created a humanity capable of entering freely into an exchange of love; that in the wake of sin’s devastating entry into the world and into human hearts, this same God committed to wooing every creature through the Spirit of God by creating room for a free and positive response to any given measure of light, and that God loves and most certainly desires to save everyone. Such a message glorifies God, dignifies the gospel message, and aligns with Scripture and does not need open theism. All of the above becomes obvious with any attempt to transfer an open theism view within the context of 16th century Dutch Reformed theology and the historic role of Arminius’ Remonstrants…
Charles Page
You are correct in the first paragraph about classical Arminianism. I’v read very few statements as clear as that!
Henry Volk
^ yup!
Ricky Grimsley
Im not attacking any view. All im saying is be honest about the implications. If you believe God has exhaustive foreknowledge from before creation then accept that the future is settled. I dont personally believe that the future is settled based on what i believe the scriptures say. So i believe that God has all knowledge that can be had. If that is heresy then pray that God opens my eyes and shows me that. Until then ” now i know” means now i know and god repented and changed his mind” means god repented and changed his mind.
Henry Volk
Any one here Process?
Charles Page
keep him on the ventilator another day!
David Lewayne Porter
Ricky
You are the only one that I ever see post that the future is settled.
Ricky Grimsley
Thats what i mean about the implications. You all believe the future is settled (at least in God’s mind). Im just arguing that if God knows the future then it has to be settled if he cant learn. If you will all just say you believe the future is settled we can move on lol.
David Lewayne Porter
I guess we will be friends a long time Bro Ricky.
But only God knows exactly how long.
We will have to just wait and see.
Charles Page
#9 rejection of the Synod of Dort. It is a rejection stated with the 3rd and 4th statement
It is one of my favorite statemens of faith and grace.
Who teach that grace and free choice are concurrent partial causes which cooperate to initiate conversion, and that grace does not precede—in the order of causality—the effective influence of the will; that is to say, that God does not effectively help the human will to come to conversion before that will itself motivates and determines itself.
For the early church already condemned this doctrine long ago in the Pelagians, on the basis of the words of the apostle: “It does not depend on human willing or running but on God’s mercy” (Rom. 9:16); also: “Who makes you different from anyone else?” and “What do you have that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7); likewise: “It is God who works in you to will and act according to his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).
Charlie Robin
but contradicts greatly #8 A Single Decree of Election namely that This election is not of many kinds, but one and the same for all who were to be saved in the Old and the New Testament. For Scripture declares that there is a single good pleasure, purpose, and plan of God’s will, by which he chose us from eternity both to grace and to glory, both to salvation and to the way of salvation, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in.
Charles Page
VIII
Who teach that it is not absurd that people, after losing their former regeneration, should once again, indeed quite often, be reborn.
For by this teaching they deny the imperishable nature of God’s seed by which we are born again, contrary to the testimony of the apostle Peter: “Born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable” (1 Pet. 1:23).
Charlie Robin
I was fixing to quote that further here for some more clarity Here’s teh actual full text “Who teach that the cause for God’s sending the gospel to one people rather than to another is not merely and solely God’s good pleasure, but rather that one people is better and worthier than the other to whom the gospel is not communicated. For Moses contradicts this when he addresses the people of Israel as follows: “Behold, to Jehovah your God belong the heavens and the highest heavens, the earth and whatever is in it. But Jehovah was inclined in his affection to love your ancestors alone, and chose out their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as at this day” (Deut. 10:14-15). And also Christ: “Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! for if those mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes” (Matt. 11:21).”
Charles Page
I rejected Dort for the reason of contradictions. It is makes the statement in the 9th rejection and the rest is a contradiction of that. Rather than walk the line of TULIP which many think it does, it tolerates Amyraldianism of the day and is modern Calvinism with the well meant free offer of reformed theology.