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The pre-Adamic race GAP theory explains it all:
- Where lost souls come from?
- Where the demons come from?
- When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
- How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?
- Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?
- Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?
- Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?
- Age of earth?
- The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?
- The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?
Just try to explain the above without pre-Adamic race GAP theory and you will see for yourself…
John Bartlett [11/29/2015 9:20 AM]
What Bible is the snapshot from?
John Kissinger [11/29/2015 9:21 AM]
This is a question for one Rick Wadholm Jr but sure looks like earldy edition Geneva print http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Bible/Bibles/Historic.htm
Henry Volk [11/29/2015 9:27 AM]
I used to be a gap-theorist, in fact that’s how I was raised. I think it’s a far superior position than creationism. However, I think it has flaws hermeneutically. The more I read Aquinas and Augustine, the more convinced I am that an evolutionary framework can be reconciled with a Christian worldview.
John Kissinger [11/29/2015 9:29 AM]
Gap creationism was popularized by Thomas Chalmers, a professor at the University of Edinburgh, founder of the Free Church of Scotland, and author of one of the Bridgewater Treatises, who attributed it to 17th century Dutch Arminian theologian Simon Episcopius. Other early proponents included Oxford University geology professor and fellow Bridgewater author William Buckland, Sharon Turner and Edward Hitchcock. It gained widespread attention when a “second creative act” was discussed prominently in the reference notes for Genesis in the influential 1917 Scofield Reference Bible. In 1954, a few years before the re-emergence of Young Earth Flood geology eclipsed Gap creationism, influential evangelical theologian Bernard Ramm wrote in The Christian View of Science and Scripture
Henry Volk [11/29/2015 9:31 AM]
John Kissinger have you ever checked out the Recovery Version of the Bible?
John Kissinger [11/29/2015 9:43 AM]
yeah, someone mentioned it earlier last year and I was supposed to write a review – what about it? anything more specific?
Henry Volk [11/29/2015 1:39 PM]
As far as I am aware, it is the only translation that translates Gen 1:2 as, “And the earth became void and waste.”
John Ruffle [11/29/2015 3:18 PM]
Gap theory conveniently explains away faith in God’s Word, enabling folks to stay in the comfort zone of unbelief. Biblically, it’s nonesense. Take another look at young earth, Pangaea and plate tectonics theories instead.
Ricky Grimsley [11/29/2015 3:51 PM]
Wow john ruffle. Thats a pretty closed minded statement.
John Kissinger [11/29/2015 3:52 PM]
Henry Volk it’s certainly NOT the only one; Young’s literal even goes further explaining the literal Hebrew tense of “the earth hath existed waste and void” – continually in the long and progressive perfected past
Ricky Grimsley [11/29/2015 4:11 PM]
@ John Ruffle how can u you say it takes less faith to believe the gap theory? Really pick on Henry Volk. He believes evolution.
John Ruffle [11/29/2015 4:20 PM]
What’s Biblios got to say in reply?
John Kissinger [11/29/2015 4:24 PM]
I believe I can fly 🙂
Ricky Grimsley [11/29/2015 4:33 PM]
I wonder does any one in hear believe in a flat earth?
John Kissinger [11/29/2015 4:34 PM]
so I touched on the issue atop b/c it is somewhat relevant to early holiness movement – at least it made sense to them in Zion City
Allen Benton [11/29/2015 4:49 PM]
Why explain about what’s not “written”? There’s plenty written a bout to teach!
John Kissinger [11/29/2015 5:10 PM]
the phrase “without form” kind of is in v 2 so we try to explain. It can be seen from these passages what the condition of the earth was in Gen. 1:2. God did not originally create the earth in such a waste and ruined condition. It is stated in Isa. 45:18 that He did not create the earth tohuw (vain, waste, desolate), yet in v 2 it is this way. Therefore, we conclude that the earth was made perfect, dry land, beautiful, and inhabited originally, and that later it became empty, waste, and a ruin because of sin (Dt. 32:4; Eccl. 3:11)
Bob Collins [11/29/2015 6:49 PM]
You know I love discussing many things but there is so much I don’t know and the older I get, I have discovered the less I know, but I know John 3:16,17; Rom. 10:9,10-13 and the rest of it I will find out when Jesus fulfills John 14…I live on this side of the cross, whatever happened on the other side, even though awesome and challenging, has nothing to do with what was accomplished at Calvary and His resurrection. Be blessed.
John Kissinger [11/30/2015 9:34 AM]
WHEN ELSE did Satan+ 1/3 of the angels fall from the Heavens? Timothy Carter
Varnel Watson
Tom Steele Seems appropriate to bring the topic on EarthDay Ricky
Tom Steele
So is the article I just posted to the group earlier
Varnel Watson
Tried to read it but a bit over my head. Not a chemist 🙂
Tom Steele
You should keep going, I break down that part in more simple terms and then once you get past it, the rest should all start to click.
Varnel Watson
I am like John Ruffle Just give me the short version…
John Ruffle
Couldn’t see any article at all! PT has a great website set-up … except it doesn’t work!
Tom Steele
Kinda like the short version of the Bible?
John Ruffle
It IS the short version!
Varnel Watson
Short version: It’s a BIG gap 🙂
Tom Steele
Unless there is no gap… thus the need to use the word THEORY in the Gap Theory.
Tom Steele
The short version is those who want to throw out the Old Testament as obsolete, and just have a New Testament.
John Ruffle
Or for those of us whose internet link won’t show the full version more like.
Laurie Anne Corson
Lost me at Scofield bible.
Ricky Grimsley
Adam and eve was 6000 years ago but “in the beginning” was way longer ago.
John Ruffle
Rick, that’s a plain crazy comment, sorry. You make a nice, clear statement as if it’s Biblical fact. But … it isn’t. It’s a possible interpretation. I hope this is just forum shorthand you’re using, because God help your congregation if you preach and teach that way.
No offence intended, but I am serious (it was 4:00am last time I checked – not the hour for high diplomacy!)
Ricky Grimsley
Lol thats definitely a shorthand statement. We all know the arguments for and against young earth. The bible is pretty clear that adam and eve was about 6000 years ago. The age of the earth might be debatable but a 6000 year old just doesnt hold up.
John Ruffle
I beg to disagree. A young earth is a defensible theory both biblically and scientifically. What it DOES do is seriously challenge our worldview presuppositions and preconceptions. So that alone makes it difficult to debate the issue from a level, emotionally-clear playing field.
I’m not sure we’ll know definitively this side of heaven, but I favour a young earth scenario personally. Geologically it can work.
I favour the Noahdic cataclysmic scenario, because the exegesis for the gap theory is tenuous to say the least.
While it’s right to consider a gap theory, if we were building a salvation / central doctrine around such tenuous textual evidence that would be highly dependant upon interpretation, I suspect we’d all throw it out as heretical without a second thought.
Varnel Watson
If you got lost at Scofield you will get found at Dake (It’s an old Pentecostal saying) http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/creation-or-catabolism-from-the-foundation-of-the-worlds/
Colby Benefield
Dake is no good either
Colby Benefield
It’s a very possiable theory but the only problem I have with it is Matt 19:4
Ricky Grimsley
I wish dake was still alive to crush youngearthers in debates.
John Ruffle
I’ve gotta Dakes “super highway to heaven” as well. Just make sure you drive in the two centre lanes most the time. Some broken down trucks can suddenly appear out of nowhere on the hard shoulders.
Ricky Grimsley
John Ruffle lol that pretty witty.
Alan N Carla Smith
Ricky… easy now
Colby Benefield
If I’m correct doesn’t dake have a son who is a pastor, an Indian guy. Cause that man is a false prophet. And he supports the dake bible. And I still believe a race before us could have existed. Only on a flat earth though. Not possible with a globe.my only problem is the verse in Matt
Joshua Remington
I always wondered about those dino-saucers
Ricky Grimsley
Lol
Ricky Grimsley
Lets just disregard all of science because some people cant think past what mama said.
Tom Steele
Why not, ya’ll disregard science on all of my posts.
Colby Benefield
I’m not disregarding anything. I’m just still waiting on someone to tell me how earth can be over 6000 years old and that there was a pre human race if Matt says man was made at the beginning. I can see It being so other than that one verse. Cause in gen 1 in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth and the earth was shapeless and void can also be translated from its original hebrew the first fruits god cut down and the earth “became” shapeless and void. Also he told Adam and Eve to repopulate the earth. Not to populate it. Isaiah also seems to indicate that earth was not first created shapeless and void and that Eden was symbolic. So I can see it being a possibility. Besides mat 19:4
John Ruffle
Ricky Grimsley, as far as I can see on this thread, you have failed to post a single substantiated comment on this thread so far. That worries me when a supposed theologian or church leader is so convinced they are right that they don’t engage in a reasoned or rational dialogue. Me, I’m just stepping in as the the ref right here. End of story.
Ricky Grimsley
Well my position is the gap theory. Its pretty well known to all those on here. I could cut and paste 4 pages of copy but I assume you already know the “gap theory and just dont agree.
Colby Benefield
Ricky Grimsley I’m confused are you saying there was a pre adamite race. If so could you address the issue with Matt 19:4
Colby Benefield
Matt 19 have you not read that he which made them AT THE BEGINNING made them male and female and said for this cause shall a man leave his father and his mother and Cleave to his wife and the two shall be one
Ricky Grimsley
At the beginning of our race. Adam and eve. In the beginning God only created adam with eve still inside him. God decided later to separate adam and eve so that man would not be alone. Genesis 2:18,22 KJVS
[18] And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. [22] And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Varnel Watson
Yap, Dake be dancing (holy) circles around these young preachers quoting Bible verses to prove his theory(s). Young preachers that are yet to read the Bible once, if I may add 🙂 http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dealing-with-dakes-teachings/
Laurie Anne Corson
How can you presume that he has not yet read the Bible all the way through? I can’t tell what you were implying. I hope you had good intentions by that statement.
Tim Renneberg
For the original post… spell check is your friend… I can tackle the “formless and void” verse. In the Hebrew it’s a clever use of onomatopoeia emphasizing how there was nothing in the beginning and how out of nothing elohim creates. The following verses show God forming the formless (day 1-3) and filling the void (day 4-6).
I really won’t lose any sleep over if someone wants to believe in the gap theory. It’s a stellar example of iscogesis.
To throw a monkey wrench into the gap theory, it is very likely that verse 1 of Genesis orginally served as a title, essentially explaining what was about to take place in the following verses.
Rico Hero
Iscogesis?
Tim Renneberg
Making a text say what you want it to say. Fitting a text into one’s pre-conceived beliefs/interpretations
Rico Hero
Why do YEC do that:)
Tim Renneberg
I don’t
Rico Hero
My plane departs soon, but how do you explain the water in existence before day 1. (day 1 starts with light).
Brian Crisp
Good topic. Very interesting
John Conger
Trouble maker
Mary Ellen Nissley
just can’t let it rest in peace, can you?
Varnel WatsonEdwards
I believe in the gap FACT. It is the only one that makes sense. Too much verbal gymnastics explaining young earth in light of the evidence against it and the so-called “theistic evolution” has no biblical support.
Tim Renneberg
Who said anything about a young earth?
Varnel WatsonEdwards
I did in my response 🙂
Jon Ray
When did Satan and his angels fall from the Heavens?
Charles Page
Gap theory supports evolution
Varnel Watson
These 2 settle it for me:
#8 The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?
#9 The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?
Peter Fiske
Troy Day, all Genesis 7 tells us is that God brought two of every kind of animal to Noah. It doesn’t say which kind particularly except that they were to be land and winged organisms that breathed oxygen. Land-based dinosaurs certainly qualify as land-based oxygen-breathing organisms! Furthermore, the Bible mentions dinosaurs in Job 40 and 41 [https://creation.com/behemoth-and-leviathan], which was a time shortly after the one and only worldwide (2 Peter 3) Flood.
Varnel Watson
Peter Fiske perhaps you should take a trip to KY to see the life size Noahs ark replica and explain HOW exactly 2 of each dinosaurs fit in it Good luck!
Peter Fiske
Having trouble answering anything I’ve posted Troy Day.?
Varnel Watson
Not at all As a matter of fact I’ve answered everything you;ve posted even BEFORE you posted it simply because all you post is blah blah that we’ve heard before. Where again in Gen 1 you read about angels? exact verse please
Peter Fiske
Troy Day, actually putting two of each kind of land animal, including dinosaurs isn’t a problem when one considers the fact that God could have sent juvenile members of the larger dinosaur kind, like the sauropods. Dinosaurs could have been represented as young. According to the most recent models of dinosaur maturation, the largest sauropod dinosaurs were no more than several hundred kilograms in weight by the time they were just over a year old. (T.M. Lehman and H.N. Woodward, “Modeling Growth Rates for Sauropod Dinosaurs,” Paleobiology 34 no. 4 (2008): 264–281.[https://bit.ly/2xP51p8])
Peter Fiske
You haven’t answered anything Troy Day, and when debunked in debate, you get aggravated. Stick to the context of the debate without getting emotionally attached. It isn’t easy, as I get angry every time self-professed Christians ignorantly try to peddle false doctrine (like the Gap myth) in the name of scripture while just hurting the cause of Christ in the process.
Peter Fiske
Troy, I’ve been to the Creation Museum but not yet the Ark Encounter. I plan on going later this summer, since I’m a lifetime member of the Creation Museum, I get in free both attractions!??
Thangsan Hisfootstep
To me, dinosaur age might be during Eden era. We don’t exactly know that how long Adam was actually with God in the Garden. Since it’s part of eternity (before the fall), it might be millions of years or at least hundreds of years. Many things could happen in the outside-world (outside of the Garden) during those hundreds of years.
Peter Fiske
Thangsan Hisfootstep, Adam was 130 when Seth was born (Genesis 5:2-3) and Seth what’s a replacement for Abel whom Cain murdered (Genesis 4:25). Also, since Lucifer fell in the Garden of Eden Ezekiel 28:13-15, obviously happened before the fall of Adam (man) in Genesis three, it’s safe to say that we can extrapolate the time Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden to be approximately 100 years.
Thangsan Hisfootstep
Peter Fiske Thanks for comment. If to express more what in my mind, Adam’s year of age counted in Genesis 5 might probably be the days/years after the fall. In another words, we can say that this is the total of long years that Adam waited for the wages of his sin (death). In fact, it is little bit different from the way we counted days and years as we used to counted days/years after birth. However, to be strict to biblical standpoint, days/years counted after the great fall are actually the total of days/years that we waited for our own physical death. Accordingly, in the Garden when no one knows sin yet, just is eternity (part of eternity) that no prospective death so that no need to count how many days or years one already lived up. Taken for granted, therefore, Genesis 1 – 2 knows only 7 days of creation that still might be different from the way we say day now.
Peter Fiske
Thangsan Hisfootstep, the Hebrew word for “day” in Genesis 1 is “yom”. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3117&t=ESV
“Yom” can mean a literal 24-hour day, an indefinite period of time, a season, or a particular holiday event, like Passover. The context of Genesis 1 in reference to time is clearly that of 6 literal 24 hour days comma since each reference to day is bounded by an evening and a morning.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3117&t=ESV
Varnel Watson
Thats a good one Thangsan I;ve told Ricky Grimsley some adventist believe Adam genetically modified the dinos so he can harvest them for food – large masses of prime angus steak from Eden
Peter Fiske
First off, biblical creation which teaches that God created the Earth less than 10,000 years ago, and that there is no heretical Gap in Genesis 1, isn’t *Adventist doctrine*, but sound and truthful biblical doctrine.
Secondly, one has to play a contorted game of mental gymnastics with Genesis 1-11 in order to try to fit an invisible gap of millions of supposed years into the canon of scripture.
Gary Micheal Epping
Peter Fiske Yes the Yappers have proven that there is no gap.
Peter Fiske
Gary Micheal Epping, don’t be as butt-ignorant as Troy Day, and other gappist biblical neophytes.
Gary Micheal Epping
Peter Fiske Yappers yap, yap, yap!
Peter Fiske
Gary Micheal Epping, just when I thought we were able to develop a mutually respectful dialogue when we were discussing the Brownsville Revival, you descend once more into
abyss of absurdity and ensuing ridiculous dialogue when trying to defend Satanic false teacher, Finis Dake and his ridiculous false teachings.
Louise Cummings
I don’t find how they find ions of years between these two verses. It just talks about God moving upon the face of the deep.
Peter Fiske
Louise Cummings, you’re absolutely right! A plane and literal reading in the original context of Genesis 1 shows absolutely no Gap. The Gap myth was invented by Thomas Chalmers in 1814 in order to make Genesis fit with the emerging evolutionary based ideas of supposed deep time of millions of years propagated by the likes of James Hutton, Charles Cuvier, and others like them.
Scotty Searan
All I know is I am going to take the Bible for what it says.
Yes I know what Strongs concordance says about the word replenish
Yes I know it can mean to fill up.
But I am just fool enough to believe that the Holy Ghost knew
Peter Fiske
Scotty Searan , There was no *previous Earth* before Genesis 1, and the 400 year old archaic English KJV word replenish in Genesis 1:28 of the Dominion mandate, actually means to “be full” for “to fill”, for the first time!
https://creation.com/genesis-1-28-replenish-or-fill
The Hebrew word in Genesis 1:28 here is “male’ — Strong’s H4390”.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H4390&t=ESV
There isn’t the first definition that means to *refill* or *fill again*, which is what the likes of Dake have insinuated in their commentary notes in order to push the heretical Gap Theory.
Varnel Watson
booo Peter Fiske Oxford Old English Dictionary
replenish
VERB
Fill (something) up again.
‘he replenished Justin’s glass with mineral water’
Restore (a stock or supply) to a former level or condition.
‘all creatures need sleep to replenish their energies’
Origin
Late Middle English (in the sense ‘supply abundantly’): from Old French repleniss-, lengthened stem of replenir, from re- ‘again’ (also expressing intensive force) + plenir ‘fill’ (from Latin plenus ‘full’).
Peter Fiske
Troy Day, simply posting something you claim to be in the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) without a corroborate your assertion is poor scholarship to say the least.
You claim to be a Bible scholar yet you don’t go back to an objective scholarly source (like I did look up the original Hebrew word “male’ “… [https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H4390&t=ESV]) that lists the original Hebrew in Genesis 1:28.
God gave Moses Book of Genesis in Hebrew, not 400 year old KJV English!
We have seen that Latin re- originally meant ‘again’ but then developed new overtones. Before the Bible was translated, repleo, the word that gave us ‘replenish’, normally meant just ‘fill’. Here are some examples from Latin authors:
• fill up the number of (Livy)
• what they lacked in votes they made up for in noise (Ovid)
• he filled the battlefield with men (before the battle) (Livy)
• fill veins with blood (Livy)
• filled the crowd with his speech (Virgil)
• civil law full of right knowledge (Cicero)
There’s another English word that comes from repleo. It is ‘replete’. We can say ‘I am replete’, using a politer word than ‘full up’ with food. It doesn’t mean ‘full again’.
Varnel Watson
Peter Fiske take it with OED https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/replenish You copy pasting from answersingenesis.org makes you very scholarly. I give you an F for plagiarizing as I do to all my plagiarizing students You also get a double F for failing to answer all 10 arguments in the previous discussion on the topic. To be honest with you, you are not doing so well in the GAP class
Peter Fiske
Troy Day, you’re not my teacher, plagiarism is a serious charge, and I always link postings. Nevertheless you haven’t answered my point which is that God wouldn’t …
1. have initially given scripture in KJV English.
2. incorrectly defined the context of the Dominion mandate in Genesis 1:28 just to satisfy scripturally naive gappists trying to fit supposed millions of years into scripture just to satisfy erroneous evolutionary thinking when it doesn’t belong there.
Varnel Watson
Correct: In your post here
https://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/permalink/1726192230769118/?comment_id=1726352907419717&reply_comment_id=1727364187318589&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D
you copy pasted this
• fill up the number of (Livy)
• what they lacked in votes they made up for in noise (Ovid)
• he filled the battlefield with men (before the battle) (Livy)
• fill veins with blood (Livy)
• filled the crowd with his speech (Virgil)
from here https://answersingenesis.org/bible-questions/what-does-replenish-the-earth-mean/
and you cited NO source making it your own work
Marked: (F)
Peter Fiske
Troy Day, the OED of 1611 defined replenish as “to be full.” Wow correct, and the reason that the KJV translators included the word in Genesis 1:28, it’s not the source by which we must interpret the meaning of the word.
———————————————
The word וּמִלְא֥וּ(ū·mil·’ū) is translated in the Brown-Driver-Briggs as:
verb be full, fill (Late Hebrew id. (Piʿel transitive); Zinjirli מלא (Piʿel transitive) DHM Sendsch. 60; Assyrian malû (transitive and intransitive) DlHWB 409; Arabic (transitive) , (intransitive); Ethiopic (transitive and intransitive); Aramaic (transitive), מְלָא (intransitive and transitive), Palmyrene proper name מלא = plenitude, VogPalm 7, 2 and others; Sabean מלא Os14 Levy-OsZMG xix.1863, 211 f. DHMZMG xxix.1875, 595); —
Interestingly, the root word “מִלְא֤”(male or mala) means ” be full, usually with accusative material”. The general sense is that man was given “dominion” (וּרְד֞וּ-ū·rə·ḏū) to “bring order” to the earth God had created which was “full” and needs harvesting. Apart from man’s dominion, the earth would ‘over-run’ and cease from being productive. It ‘replenishes’ itself because of man’s exercising dominion over it
https://archive.org/stream/hebrewenglishlex00browuoft#page/569/mode/1up
_____________________________
Peter Fiske
Your problem is using a Dake Bible, where Dake contorts and twists biblical theology in his false teachings, located in his commentaries. The Holy Spirit didn’t tell you that replenish meant to refill and that there was a gap in Genesis 1. That is nonsense! Miss Christians we had better stop following too vain human traditions, and mindless and subjective feelings just because our so-called *heart * tells us to. Genesis 1 teaches that the Earth is Thousands not billions of years old. That’s not a problem if one has a foundational mindset that we’re going to take God at his Word, and not to try to twist the word of God to fit the fallible and ultimately false evolutionary based ideas of humans. When evolutionists see that we compromise Genesis to try to fit millions of years into the scripture, they literally laugh and are unfoundedly reassured of there materialistic mythology. Scientific evidence, and scripture itself don’t support a gap!
Varnel Watson
what a beautiful testimony Scotty Searan
Tim Law
If you believe in a pre-adamic race then who sinned before Adam?
Varnel Watson
Lucifer of course Thats true even if you dont believe pre-adamic. Just simple Biblical truth
Peter Fiske
Except Troy Day that’s Lucifer send while he was in the Garden of Eden, that would be AFTER Creation Week in Genesis 1:1-31, as Ezekiel 28:13-15 tells us.
“Let God be true, and every man (Finis Dake, Hugh Ross, Thomas Chalmers, Troy Day, etc) a liar.” – Romans 3:4
Varnel Watson
Except what?
Peter Fiske
Troy Day, Lucifer sinned AFTER Creation Week in Genesis 1. (Ezekiel 28:13-15).
Varnel Watson
Ezekiel 28 does NOT prove your statement. Your are citing the Bible in a false and misleading way to mean what you want it to mean
Peter Fiske
Troy Day, Ezekiel 28:13-15 tells us that Lucifer was a good angel in the Garden of Eden before sin was found in him. If you try to take this clear, and cut and dried scripture and contorted to fit your false teaching, namely the Gap myth, you’re guilty of adding to the canon of the Word of God, expressly forbidden in Deuteronomy 4:2 and Revelation 22:18-19.
Gary Micheal Epping
Peter Fiske Yeh, yeh! The creation of the angels and their fall all crammed up tightly into the garden of Eden, while they were were playing with the dinosaurs. Hogwash! You need to stop iisttening to Ken Ham.
Peter Fiske
Gary Micheal Epping, according to Job 38, God created the Angels at the very beginning of Creation Week faithfully recorded in Genesis 1 since that’s the only time God created.
((all crammed up tightly into the Garden of Eden))
First off, no one knows the size of the Garden of Eden, however there’s good reason to think that it covered a good part of t he pre-Flood Earth which lasted from Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31) for 1,656 years till the coming of the Flood (Genesis 5:3,5, 6,9, 12,15,18,21, 25, 28; 7:6 [https://answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/timeline-for-the-flood/]).
((Hogwash))
We’re not bringing up Dake and is commentaries. ?
((You need to stop iistening to Ken Ham))
I see you like to co-opt my talking points as I said the same thing to you listening to that crackpot Finis Dake. Nevertheless, unlike Dake, Ken Ham has a real science degree (BSc in biology education, DipEd [Aussie equivalent of a Masters]).
https://answersingenesis.org/bios/ken-ham/
Varnel Watson
Fiske, you seem not to understand simple tenses in the Bible language
According to Job 38, 2 when God created earth the Angels were already there and watched Him do it
Now because you claim this extra terrestrial Bible knowledge please give us the EXACT verse from Genesis 1 that describe the creation of the angels. I mean like chapter verse and Blue Bible reference please – waiting….
Peter Fiske
Troy Day, you seem to like to use my last name in a pejorative way, presumably whenever you’ve been debunked by me. As I said, it’s not necessary to become so emotionally entangled and defending your point of view, or me defending mine to where it descends from an academic pursuit to and angry emotionally based exchange.
Varnel Watson
Peter Fiske seems Gary Micheal is pretty right on this:
If you are not a gapper you are a yapper
If you are a yapper you cant prove anything
Yappers just yap
Peter Fiske
Troy Day, *yapper* is an ad hominem fallacy engaged in buy those ignoramuses who can’t interpret evidence correctly.
Peter Fiske
Troy Day, I’ve proved from scripture and science both that there is no Gap in Genesis 1. You’re guilty of the bait and switch fallacy.
Varnel Watson
You’ve done no such thing. What you have actually done is repeating that you have proven it, but in all actuality you’ve proven nothing so far. As a matter of fact you abandoned our last discussion and chose to be quite during 8 out of 10 evidences presented. Gary Micheal Epping witnessed the whole thing lasting over a week and can confirm
Peter Fiske
Yes I have Troy Day, providing biblical and if necessary scientific references that blow Dake and his Satanic commentaries out of the water. There are no evidence is presented for a gap that can’t be effectively demolished by biblical truth. Secondly, show me a statistical analysis that I’ve not refuted 80% of your supposed evidences.
Gary Micheal Epping
Peter Fiske Yap, yap.
Varnel Watson
Fiske from the 10 points made here you refused to address 8 (thats 80%) and you are yet to address the other 2 (20%) In my book that’s make 100% that you have failed to refute which makes my thesis 100% right. That simple http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/10-things-in-the-bible-that-cannot-be-explained-without-the-pre-adamic-race-gap-theory/
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day He doesn’t like to answer questions. but drop a ton of span instead.
Peter Fiske
Day , what book? I read authors that have something to offer and contribute, I have failed to see you meet that standard.
Peter Fiske
Gary Micheal Epping, I’ve been posting biblical doctrine that I’ve quoted, and that I’ve quoted from other sources that are objective and scholarly, both biblical and scientific, that have not agreed with your blind faith in this heresy originated in the mind of Satan, and peddled by the likes of false teachers like Finis Dake, namely the Gap myth.
Gary Micheal Epping
I am not debating you unless you only answer with your own posts and and no SPAM attachments. Otherwise, find someone else.
Varnel Watson
Out of 10 arguments in the last discussion Fiske answered exactly 0 (zero) Why should we spent another week waiting on his non answering while he repeats how well he defeated arguments he never addressed? https://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/permalink/1713510052037336/
Peter Fiske
Gary Micheal Epping, you’re becoming an annoying child again. Why don’t you just try to answer the questions instead of tap dancing around then and then emotionally attacking when you can’t answer.
Varnel Watson
Peter Fiske you’ve opened so much extraterrestrial knowledge I feel you belong to area 51. If not you definitely belong somewhere else
Peter Fiske
*Extraterrestrial* knowledge? No, I’m trying to stay on topic, however I won’t allow by compromise, the true and pure context of God’s Word in Genesis 1 to be maligned and contorted by those of you who wish to compromise Genesis in order to satisfy a false teacher’s (Finis Dake’s) erroneous interpretation of Genesis.
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day And he still hasn’t answered: #8 The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?
#9 The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?
Varnel Watson
Naah – he aint answered 1 to 10 cause he cant
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day Peter has claimed that dinosaurs were created in Eden. I wonder why God would make Tyrannosaurus rex the super predator with teeth that were made to only eat flesh, when there was no killing of other animals until after Eve sinned. Also, if Tyrannosaurus rex were put on the Ark, it would seem that no other animals would be left after a few days when he got hungry. There is no other acceptable answer except Rex lived in an earlier time.
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day Over on (Debate.org) they polled, “Do Christians really think Noah took dinosaurs on the ark?” Results 35% yes, and 65% no.
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day “We’re taking the dinosaurs back,” said Ken Ham, president of Answers in Genesis, a Christian group building a $25-million creationist museum in Petersburg, Ky., that’s already overrun with model sauropods and velociraptors.
However, the nation’s top paleontologists find the YEC theory preposterous and say children are being misled by dinosaur exhibits that take the Jurassic out of “Jurassic Park.”
“Dinosaurs lived in the Garden of Eden, and Noah’s Ark? Give me a break,” said Kevin Padian, curator at the University of California Museum of Paleontology in Berkeley and president of National Center for Science Education, an Oakland group. “For YEC proponents, ‘The Flintstones’ is a documentary.”
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day
The Hudson Bay Geologist has a few words for YECs.
Young-Earth creationists (YECs) believe that God created the world around 6,000 years ago exactly as described in the book of Genesis. They are forced to conclude that dinosaurs were roaming around with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
They are also forced to conclude, since the world was perfect with no pain, suffering, and death before the Fall, that dinosaurs like T. rex ate coconuts or something with those long, serrated teeth. They also debate whether or not Noah took dinosaurs on the ark.
By the way, I saw Ken Ham speak once, a long time ago now, when I was a graduate student at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Everything he said about geology in that talk (which was given in a church) was a complete lie (I’m not going to be charitable and assume he was just ignorant, because he’s not a dumb man – he’s a lying sack of ??? who lives better than I off the donations of others and outright slanders science and scientists).
Peter Fiske
Gary Micheal Epping, ((I wonder why God would make Tyrannosaurus Rex the super predator with teeth that were made to only eat flesh when there was no killing of other animals)) According to scripture, all animals were initially vegetarian ( Genesis 1:29 [http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-29.htm]). It wasn’t until after Noah’s flood that man and presumably the animals) given permission to eat meat (Genesis 9:3 [http://biblehub.com/genesis/9-3.htm]). That doesn’t mean that some animals weren’t carnivorous before Noah’s (ONLY) worldwide Flood, and indeed may have become carnivorous after the Fall in Genesis 3.
https://creation.com/animal-carnivory-began-at-fall
Today an apex predator known as the grizzly bear, an organism that eats animals as large as elk [https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x35jwi4], is also known to eat berries, grass, flowers, and leaves.
http://www.mountainnature.com/wildlife/bears/beardiet.htm
Also, due to the fragile nature of the T-Rex forearm, and structure of the hind leg [https://phys.org/news/2017-07-tyrannosaurus-rex-couldnt.html] there’s now anatomical evidence that T-Rex was primarily an opportunistic feeder, more like a scavenger, not dissimilar from vultures and hyenas. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14819982.600-the-bigger-they-come-the-harder-they-fall/
Also, there’s a theropod ( normally the classification for meat eating dinosaurs like velociraptor, T-Rex and Spinosaurus) fossil that evolutionists mistakenly think was a transitional, but has characteristics of both a carnivore and a herbivore, indicating that it may have been omnivorous, or even primarily herbivorous.
“After studying 90 theropod species, their conclusion is that vegetarianism was widespread”. https://gizmodo.com/5715569/most-carnivorous-dinosaurs-were-actually-vegetarian
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/study-identifies-dinosaur-missing-link
Peter Fiske
Gary Micheal Epping, as much as I thought we had a spiritual kinship in terms of our shared experience and belief in the genuineness of the Brownsville Revival, I see that you have gone off the proverbial biblical reservation when it comes to trying to defend Dake and the false and heretical doctrine of the Gap Myth.
((…the nation’s top paleontologist find the YEC theory preposterous))
Spoken like a true evolutionist! So you’re scrapping biblical Authority for the fallible evolutionary based, and erroneous ideas of fallen secular humanists who peddle Darwin’s 19th century creation myth as if it were fact. It is a fact that most paleontologists are flaming evolutionists. The majority of geoscience programs nationwide, which includes paleontology, are run by evolutionists who have been shown statistically to be overwhelmingly atheist, hostile to biblical Christianity, and vote left of center and are naively affiliated with the Democrat party. With that kind of a cracked philosophical Foundation, for a Christian to lean on these types of people for their information and trying to prove Genesis compromise, is pathetic to say the least. It’s as if you were a modern day Benedict Arnold who sold out his country just so he could curry favor with the British crown.
((Kevin Padian… president of the National Center for Science Education))
You just don’t learn Gary! The NCSE is a toxic, anti-Christian, secularist organization that has nothing to do with science, and nothing to do with education! They exist solely to peddle Darwinian mythology, including the myth of the time millions of years, as science to impressionable children. In short, self-professed atheist Kevin Padian is a modern-day Joseph Goebbels, and his organization, the NCSE is a modern-day Nazi-like propaganda organization.
Gary Micheal Epping
Peter Fiske My comments are not to you, so butt off.
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day YEC science is just really goofy and looney tunes. No other way to explain it for anyone that has a rational mind and can add 2+2.
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day I guess extraterrestrial knowledge is the crystal ball that makes a person’s statements always right regardless of the arguments of other with a different position?
Peter Fiske
Gary Micheal Epping, this is an open forum, and I will engage in conversation as I see fit, if you don’t like it, tough titty.
Peter Fiske
Gary Micheal Epping, I went over to debate.org, and I noticed that evolutionists have been posting there for quite a while in several related categories. Thus your poll on this issue isn’t an accurate barometer of how Christians feel about whether or not dinosaurs were on Noah’s Ark.
Varnel Watson
bro Scotty you dont have problem using Dake Bible. It is proper theology to consult multiple authors and sort them out. If you like Dake, Scofield Thompson it is only right to consult them in aiding your understanding of the BIBLE
It is wrong however to claim extraterrestrial knowledge like Peter Fiske on various subjects and claim only one person being right. Such is a type of personal revelation that borders a cult or close relations with Area51
Rico Hero Gary Micheal Epping A.J. Bible even Ricky Grimsley in part have all told him it is OK to use Dake on the Gap theory but when Area51 says other wise some respond in their extraterrestrial Cant be help #MovingForward
Scotty Searan
Troy Day I do use Dakes & Thompsons and Life IN The Spirit. I believe they help you and are a tool to use.
Peter Fiske I do know that one of the meanings in 1600 was fill up, But there was also a meaning for replenish also to make full again also.
Now I have looked it up and have also seen it in the meanings you would send the group.
But look at this
KJV Translation Count — Total: 249x
The KJV translates Strong’s H4390 in the following manner: fill (107x), full (48x), fulfil (28x), consecrate (15x), accomplish (7x), replenish (7x), wholly (6x), set (6x), expired (3x), fully (2x), gather (2x), overflow (2x), satisfy (2x), miscellaneous (14x).
The scholars translated 249 time מָלָא
Peter Fiske
Troy Day, it is proper practice to investigate Selah theological writings on biblical topics, but in the end of the day, there can only be one correct, and therefore objective interpretation of what scripture says on a matter. Biblical creation only thousands of years ago and the Gap Theory can’t both be true, just like creation and evolution both can’t be true. Therefore, wherever you come off saying *extraterrestrial knowledge*, is just another pathetic example of your ignorance sound biblical exegesis in terms of what Genesis says and intransigence to truth.
This kind of arrogance within the church, and myopic allegiance to a particular (false) teacher, like Dake, and the false doctrines that he has pushed, is detrimental to Christian evangelism and the cause of Christ!
Peter Fiske
Tagging the fellow ignorant Troy Day isn’t going to help promote the Gap myth, which is nothing more then under unbiblical heresy
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day I was brought up to respect your elders, those who are highly educated and experienced in their fields of expertise, as well as those in authority in an organization or group that one belongs to. Some of the language and disrespect used on this site by certain members would never happen in most private organizations, as they would get the boot.
Peter Fiske
Scotty Searan, ((I do not know that one of the meanings in 1600 was fill up))
In modern funicular we know that fill and refill/ replenish means two different things. If that’s true today, it should have been the case 400 years ago when the 1611 KJV1 and in 1769 when the KJV2, the current Authorized Version [AV] that we today, were printed. That’s a basic given in linguistics, and Genesis Compromisers like Finis Dake (and Troy Day) can’t have it both ways, “replenish” in Genesis 1:28 doesn’t mean refill just because they want to cram a non-existent “gap” of supposed millions of years into Genesis 1.
“The OED defines ‘replenish’ as having 10 meanings throughout its history:
A. Replenished (adjective):fully stocked; provided, supplied;filled, pervaded; physically or materially filled; full, made full.B. To replenish: make full, fill, stock with, as in: ‘This man made the Newe Forest, and replenyshed it with wylde bestes’ (AD1494) ; inhabit, settle, occupy the whole of; fill with food, satiate; fill (space) with; fill (heart) with (a feeling);
fill up again; fill up (a vacant office) (AD1632)”
https://creation.com/what-does-replenish-the-earth-mean
Scotty Searan
Peter Fiske I am not taking my position because I read Dakes Bible or any Gap Theory. I had this postilion many years before I got a Dakes Bible. So how about quit throwing that at me. I have read no other persons writings except yours about the Gap Theory which I disagree with you on. What you are stating is theory. But what I am stating is in the Bible REPLENISH make full again.
One more time.
I BELIEVE THE HOLY GHOST HAD ENOUGH POWER TO ANOINT THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO WROTE THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES
2 Peter 1:19-21
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
I ALSO BELIEVE THE HOLY GHOST HAD ENOUGH POWER TO TRANSLATE THE SCRIPTURES IN 1600 FROM THE TEXT THEY HAD AVAILABLE.
I ALSO BELIEVE THE HOLY GHOST KNEW HOW LONG THE KING JAMES VERSION TRANSLATIONS WOULD BE AROUND AND THE MILLIONS IF BILLIONS WHO WERE SAVED BY THE PREACHING FROM IT.
I ALSO BELIEVED HE KNEW IT WOULD UNDER ATTACK IN THE LATTER DAYS.
Go ahead and believe what you want. I am standing firm on my belief that the world had to be replenished when God spoke to Adam, just as well as it has been replenished when Noah came out of the Ark.
I have a theory what might have happened on the previous earth, but it is a theory or opinion. I don’t say it actually happened. But I know by Gods word there was a previous population on this earth. I STAND FIRM ON THAT BELIEF.
Peter Fiske
Scotty Searan, no one is born with the idea that there is a gap of millions of years in the Bible, also no one who reads Genesis 1-11 straightforward and literally can say there is such a thing as a *gap* embedded within it’s pages. I considered myself a relatively informed person when I was an older child and younger teenager, as I read a lot of books, and went on fossil hunting trips with my father and scouting. I never heard of the Gap Theory until I was 14 years old, when a well-meaning but hyper-ignorant Bible teacher caught the ruin reconstruction theory, right out of the Dake Bible, on some TV program I watched. It made a huge impact on me, as I immediately realized that it wasn’t attempt to make Genesis 1-11 fit with what I thought was science at the time, which was actually evolutionary thinking, including millions of years belief. That’s began a 15-year journey into drugs, partying, and an overall lifestyle that led me to the lowest point of my life. My whole justification for that time frame was that I was nothing but a highly evolved animal, that there was no such thing as the biblical God, and that I was the master of my own destiny, and therefore no one, not even what I at the time believed was an *imaginary* God, could tell me what to do!
So you see, this issue is as personal for me as it is an academic pursuit. I don’t want to see another young person such as myself, and two more individuals that I’ve already previously mentioned on this site, slide into atheism just because we were exposed to Genesis compromise and realized that it was nothing more than diluting the authority of scripture to make it fit with evolutionary ideas falsely labeled as science.
Peter Fiske
Scotty, your entire presentation is based on feelings and tradition, not on objective fact and Truth. The KJV only position is kind of separate from this debate, but from your own words, you share the view of KJV Onlyists who ignorantly believe that the Christian world was without a Bible for over 1600 years until the KJV was translated. How ridiculous that is! Modern language bibles are much better in terms of understanding deep biblical truths for the propagation of sound doctrine.
As far as the word replenish goes, it seems that you won’t adhere to objective truth and evidence, but are more willing to follow feelings, which can be confused and mistaken, just in order to hold to your current position.
I have to tell you, that my position over time has changed considerably, as I wasn’t afraid to allow the evidence to lead me wherever it shows too. This is why I’m no longer and agnostic evolutionist, why I don’t believe in millions of years anymore, and why I know that scripture doesn’t teach this, because I have made the effort to follow the evidence, both scientific and scripturally, to come to the position that I hold.
And unless Christians are willing to make this journey too, we will continue to lose young people to the evolutionist dominated public education system.
Peter Fiske
Gary Micheal Epping, your entire position is intellectually stunted. You’re taking a blasphemous position against the truth of God’s word , which must be every self professed Christians starting point , with the enemies of God, namely secular evolutionists, just so you can find their favor by being a Genesis compromiser. There is no truth to the idea that’s scripture teaches a gap of billions of supposed years. And there’s no scientific evidence, that is no objective methodological procedure, and I am talking about radiometric dating techniques, that objectively prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old. That were the case, Genesis would be untrue, and the entire foundation of scripture would be cracked
“If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do.” -Psalm 11:3
Peter Fiske
Troy Day, you’re attempting to gloss over this issue as if you’ve already settled it, when the evidence from scripture and science both have shown your position to be not only foolish, but dangerous for the cause of Christ. Genesis compromise, of which the Gap theory is the most notorious component part, is completely incompatible with scripture, and forms an incoherent theology, that any thinking Christian person can see through, and if Didn’t Know Better, would have their faith damaged by.
Gary Micheal Epping
Peter Fiske No one is talking to you, so take a hike.
Peter Fiske
Gary Micheal Epping, I’ve had plenty of interaction here, and you’re talking to me, so in other words you can’t defend anything that you’ve said, or refute anything that I’ve said. So getting nasty is your only alternative. A really pathetic testimony that John Kilpatrick would shake his head to!
Peter Fiske
Gary Micheal Epping, your compromise with the likes of the NCSE and other evolutionists who hate biblical creationists is a pathetic testimony to say the least and doesn’t speak well of you personally.
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day It is hard to converse with you as a certain person can’t respect our conversation and keeps butting in.
Peter Fiske
Gary Micheal Epping, as long as you keep referring to me, I’m going to defend myself and stand for the truth of God’s word. Let God be true and every man a liar!
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day The extraterrestrial keeps thinking I am referring to him. He can’t resisting butting in.
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day It’s too bad we can not debate point 8 further, as you know who keeps diverting the issue elsewhere.
Varnel Watson
Gary Yes – are we talking about the same person here who attacks DAKE ad hominem only to complain someone is doing ad hominem here? Typical Area51 conspiracy
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day YEC science is just really goofy and looney tunes. No other way to explain it for anyone that has a rational mind and can add 2+2.
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping after all this extraterrestrial blab one can even forget what #8 was. Perhaps the blab purposes exactly that
#8 The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?
One explanation extraterrestrial give is they were brought after on UFOs No other natural way of explaining how they would get in Noah’s ark
http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/politics-other-controversies/128634d1397930405-creationist-carl-kerby-insists-dinosaurs-were-dino_ark.gif
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping you may notice that Pete Fiske has responded to any and all sub comments in this thread except this one about item #8 One cant help but notice his complete capitulation on the Top 10 things that cannot be proved without the Biblical Gap Theory When #8 was brought up again this morning, Peter Fiske decided its time to go to bed … @ 6 AM 🙂
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day Creation science says the dinosaurs did not flourish and died off after the flood, probably from an ice age. However, the last ice age ended 10000 years ago, and the atmosphere after the flood enhanced life so that all species could be replenished across the earth. Conversely, one would expect the dinosaurs to flourish, and begin to feast on all kinds of flesh, resulting in some other species becoming extinct. But, that did not happen as the dinosaurs were actually part of an earlier era before Adam.
Former creationist David MacMillan, in a Washington Post article, has said when asked, “Why is it called “Creation science”? MacMillan replies, because it allows them “to set themselves up as participants in an equal controversy, as if there are two equal sides to choose from.” To bolster that idea, he adds, “some creationists also try to mimic the appearance of hypotheses, research, and so forth.” “The whole focus of organized creationism is advancing the idea that all the evidence can be interpreted in a variety of ways and everyone is biased,” So dinosaur fossils, which should make creationism a pretty tough sell, are actually considered “talking points.” Creationists use stock responses to people who question creationism such as: “Well, maybe humans just were better organized and made it to high ground faster than dinosaurs! In a nutshell, all of these ideas are easy to debunk.
Varnel Watson
Gary my question is HOW Fiske put them in the Arc?
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day YECers often say that the gap theory can drive people away from Christianity. Actually, the opposite is true. In a recent article, “Where do dinosaurs fit?” in Beyond Today. The article starts with the question: “I don’t believe in the Bible because dinosaurs lived a long time before man ever did.”
Most people believe you can’t reconcile dinosaurs and the Bible—but they are wrong. This erroneous idea is based on the supposition that either you have to believe in the young-earth theory of a 6,000-year-old earth and dinosaurs living with Adam, or you can’t believe in the creation week account of Genesis 1.
Yet many would be surprised to find that several centuries ago scientists did believe in dinosaurs, an ancient earth and in creation week. Among them were William Buckland and Adam Sedgwick. Buckland held the chair of geology at Oxford [University in England] in the early-nineteenth century, while Sedgwick was his counterpart at Cambridge. Both were leading churchmen, and both preached the plenary inspiration of Scripture and argued in favor of special creation …
“Buckland maintained close links with Sedgwick and the famous French geologist, Baron Cuvier … They did much to persuade the early nineteenth-century church that the earth was extremely old and that such views could be harmonized with the teaching of Genesis” (Creation and Evolution, 1985, pp. 72-73).
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day Further in the same article above, the famous paleontologist G.G. Simpson once remarked: “The most puzzling event in the history of life on the earth is the change from the Mesozoic Age of Reptiles, to the … Age of Mammals. It is as if the curtain were rung down suddenly on a stage where all the leading roles were taken by reptiles, especially dinosaurs, in great numbers and bewildering variety, and rose again immediately to reveal the same setting but an entirely new cast, a cast in which the dinosaurs do not appear at all, other reptiles are supernumeraries and the leading parts are all played by mammals of sorts barely hinted at in the previous acts” ( Life Before Man, 1972, p. 42).
This reflects the change from the pre-Adamic world to the world of man. Certainly there are smaller reptiles in our world, but they are insignificant in comparison to what existed in the previous age.
Varnel Watson
Gary dinos died in the flood which makes the Bible true and young / flat earthers YFE dead wrong
Varnel Watson
Hello Peter Where are you? Was 5 hrs sleep enough? DINO topic is still open What is your response ? Gary Micheal Epping seems to me young / flat earthers fail when it comes to the dinos
Gary Micheal Epping
Point # 9 concerning original sin is won by default. The YEC site, ‘Answers in Genesis,’ says “Often when Christians think of the first sin, they think of Adam and Eve and the Fall in the Garden of Eden. While this is indeed the first human sin, it is not the first recorded sin in Scripture. As Christians, we know that the serpent tempted Eve, but we often forget that the devil’s fall from grace was what set the stage for humankind’s fall, both as antecedent and type… It is obvious from the text that Satan’s sin was pride.” So, I don’t think Peter can argue his way around his own material. No need to go any further on this one.
Varnel Watson
True on points 9 and 10 Seems Fiske is out 10 for 10 again
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day Yes, but get ready for a deluge of spam articles when he wakes up or gets home from work. Even though the evidence for the final two points is overwhelming, he always has something to say in order to try to camouflage the facts.
Varnel Watson
what you think about this one
Robert Erwine
Carl A Bohn
My wife and I studied this passage for 40 years. Then It came clear that Gen 1:1 marks the beginning of the 7000 year presence of man and this heaven and earth. (Gen 1:3. Geb 1:2 refers to the utter destruction of this earth and heavens Rev 20:7-9.
What we don’t know is how long it was from the making of Adam to the Fall. That could have been “millions” of years. We must understand that until the Fall, sin and death had not entered the world.
Satan? He was made on the 4th day with the rest of the angels. Iniquity was found in him when he became fearful of his position with God when God made Adam. Lucifer’s fear welled up into pride (Isa 14 et al) and Father at that time cast him, now Stan to the earth. The Word (preincarnate Jesus) was with Adam when Satan was cast to the earth like lightning.
As for the age of the earth (IN THE REFERENCE OF TIME AGING) one must have a basic understanding of Newtons laws of motion, specifically of acceleration and deceleration. The earth age very rapidly during the first 33 jubilees from the Expulsion. During the next seven jubilees, the aging process began to moderate, the successive 80 Jubilees, the earth has aged at a fairly level rate (hence the THEORY of Uniformitarianism) until recently with an increase of earthquakes and volcanoes. This leads to the catching away of the church then the return of Jesus for 1000 years after which Satan is let loose for a short season until God breaths His wrath on the earth and conclude with the utter dismissal of the earth and heavens making room for the NEW Heaven and the NEW Earth.
To suppose any pre-Adamicks is to suggest that this God is not God enough to save any world He may have or would create. If this is then so, how do we have the audacity to even contemplate God can and will save us in the end.
Pre-Adamicks is a faith wrecker. Pre-Adamicks was first popularized by the Gnostics during the early church to cause class struggle within the early church. The same pack of lies continues to attack the Church today and continues to cause division and wrecking the lives of many Believers around the world.
Pre-Adamicks was repopularized during the late 18th and 19th century’s as a means to pander to the enlightenment of Hutton, Darwin, Mark , and Engels and others as an attempt to remain “relevant” in an enlightened world. We are no more enlightened today than we were 200 years ago.
Anonymous
No it does not. Your points are pointless and can be responded to. GAP is a discredited, unnecessary theory popularized many moons ago, now faded.
https://www.icr.org/article/why-gap-theory-wont-work/
Anonymous
William Lance Huget Where lost souls come from? Kyle Williams Brett Dobbs
Anonymous
Troy Day there is no pre-Adamic race nor Origen or Mormon pre-existence of souls.
Anonymous
William Lance Huget Where lost souls come from?
Anonymous
Troy Day What lost souls? When people born from Adam and Eve died apart from God, they were the lost souls to the present day. There is no pre-Adamic race. That is your invented theory, not mine, not the Bible.
Anonymous
William Lance Huget what lost souls? haven you NOT read the BIBLE ?
Anonymous
Troy Day the lost souls are post Adamic Fall. What is your speculative problem?
Anonymous
When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
Anonymous
Troy Day Lucifer fell sometime after Genesis 1:27 but before. Genesis 3:1. That’s where your gap goes.
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey I just read 1;27 to 3:1 but did not even see the name Lucifer mentioned. Maybe Link can check original and report back
Anonymous
Troy Day all of creation, all heaven and all of earth was perfect in Gn 1:27. In Gn 3:1 that old serpent which is the devil and Satan showed up.
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey
““Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “ ‘You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, topaz, onyx and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.” Ezekiel 28:12-15
Anonymous
Philip Williams can you point to the actual verse from GEN where you think satan was fallen? Philip Williams WHAT is the exact time of Ezekiel 28:12-15?
Anonymous
Troy Day Here Canaan Land is the Garden of Rest guarded by Tyre whose king was friend of David and Solomon. The corruption of Israel came with Israel’s king’s marrying the daughters of foreign kings. I suppose you have heard of Jezebel. As the Lord was the real Heavenly King of Israel, Satan was Tyre’s real king. Thus, this mention of his past.
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey you must be a flat earth believer like Philip Williams
Anonymous
Troy Day nope
Anonymous
Troy Day God made a round earth. It was very good, no sin, no death, no devil. Lucifer and his band of bad angels fell sometime before Gen 3:1
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey exactly – between Gen 1 1 and Gen 1 2 #over
Anonymous
Troy Day wrong… there was no evil.before Gn 1;27
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey prove it – what you said goes against original sin and everything else. HOW did Adam and Even sin then? Link Hudson
Anonymous
Troy Day Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan and sinned. They did not have a sin nature until af6wr they sinned. After that time Adam’s sinful race brought firth fruit after their own kind. Sinners beget sinners.
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey we know Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan and sinned What we do NOT know is when Satan failed on earth to tempt them iF not between gen 1 1 and 1 2 ?
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Troy Day it could not have been before Genesis 1:27. Here’s why. God saw EVERYTHING he made in heaven and earth. It was ALL VERY GOOD. Therefore, we can be certain that Lucifer had not yet rebelled because even he was still part of God’s very good creation.
We do not know how much time elapsed between God’s pronouncement that everything in the universe was good and the episode with the serpent in Genesis three. Given the fact that Adam lived 930 years, it could have been days, weeks, months, years, decades, or even centuries.
Anonymous
It does not say so we speculate. I think it was before but proximal to the Fall of Adam. Gap theory not necessary as an explanation, possible, not probable.
Anonymous
William Lance Huget what explanation do you offeR?
Anonymous
Troy Day There is no pre-adamic race. I do not need to explain something denied by the genealogies.
Anonymous
William Lance Huget if you deny the only answer you have to give another one. Just a drive by comment without the BIBLE is pretty lame
Anonymous
Troy Day I gave a link refuting your gap theory to some degree. You know I am dying of cancer so quit bullying me (like 100s of other self-centred people) to answer 100s of posts or posters. You and this topic are not the only thing on the go.
Will not is not cannot. I also suspect it would be a waste of time since you are set in your pet fringe theory and can do minimal research to find answers.
Your reliance on Sid Roth is also a credibility hit, so I am not going to waste time on a non big issue. I am dealing with salvific issues like anti-trinitarians. That is a better use of time and energy.
The fact that you cannot accept that the lost souls are post-fall tells me you would be dismissive of my time and energy systematically answering you point by point. Refute the gap link I gave. I am not demanding you answer every sentence I post. Who do you think you are? It is a free country. Quit acting like a spoiled atheist who does the same thing when I give them arguments (or choose not to).
Anonymous
William Lance Huget why do you need to refute gap theory to prove the list?
just prove the list without gap theory and that will disprove it
can you? – or all you can do is post a Link?
Anonymous
Baloney
Anonymous
sam?itches
Anonymous
Troy Day not with a gap, all the meat would fall out.
Anonymous
This is honestly one of the dumbest theories folks have come up with, it doesn’t even deserve to be taken seriously.
Anonymous
Benjamin Mossburg I’ve heard the dumbest answer here so far – not Bible
Anonymous
So an immaterial spiritual being smashes into a material planet, and so completely obliterates it that it leaves the planet a lifeless shapeless empty nothingness. This spiritual being smashes the physical earth so hard that even the sun moon and stars are blown out of existence. And yet, dinosaur skeletons remain perfectly in tact so that they can be rediscovered thousands of years after the new earth is reformed 😂
Anonymous
Benjamin Mossburg smashes into a material planet? how do you mean
Anonymous
no it doesn’t.
Anonymous
Genesis 2:1 KJV
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Anonymous
Darnell Henson Jr. what about GEN 1:2?
Anonymous
Troy Day Genesis 1:2 is after Genesis 2:1. God created the heavens and all the host that were perfect and then Lucifer fell because of iniquity in his heart. Remember the stars were put into the sky before God made man?
Jeremiah 4:28 KJV
For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
A lot happened before Adam and Eve that God gives hint to in his word. The night is black because of the fall before man
Anonymous
Troy Day Genesis 1:1 KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 2:1 KJV
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Isaiah 45:18 KJV
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Ezekiel 28:13-15 KJV
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Anonymous
Darnell Henson Jr. I dont think Genesis 1:2 is after Genesis 2:1 Thi sounds as some liberal stuff like Philip Williams
Anonymous
tell us then William Lance Huget
Where the demons come from?
When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?
Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?
Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?
Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?
Anonymous
Troy Day Gap THEORY invented decades ago is not necessary to explain things.
Your questions involve speculation since Scripture is silent.
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William Lance Huget answer the questions without GAP theory if you can
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Troy Day why? You are the one with the odd minority view. Basic research will answer you. I have bigger fish to fry and limited time and energy.
Anonymous
cause you dont have another answer BUT gap theory #over
Anonymous
The gap theory derives from medieval Jewish Aristotelians. According to Aristotle, matter is uncreated. Thus, God began his Creation from the matter of a previous creation which had returned to chaos.
Anonymous
Philip Williams next you gonna say something about antipodes
without having any clue what they really were … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdaJokAh0kU
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Philip Williams Not sure there is a causal link to Aristotle. Scofield or someone could have dreamed it up without knowing anything about Aristotle.
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William Lance Huget no, Schofield got it from the geological scientists of his day.
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Philip Williams So, not Aristotle.
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William Lance Huget some of these scientists were familiar with the Aristotelian-based teaching in the Talmud. But the great George Cuvier’s teaching more than one Flood gave legs to the Genesis 1:1,2 Flood.
Anonymous
Philip Williams multi factorial vs simplistic
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William Lance Huget you would do well to read some of my books which detail the history of Christian and scientific understanding of origins. The late Dr. Norm Geisler who was much responsible for the rise of evangelical apologetics and chief witness for the plaintiffs who were suing for equal treatment of origins in America’s public school became my disciple on this subject the very week he read my book.
Anonymous
Philip Williams wow
Anonymous
Where lost souls come from? Lost souls are post vs pre-Adamic.
Where the demons come from? Demons are fallen angels who misused their wills (Lucifer became Satan). This may have been before and close to the Fall of Adam, but it is speculation for you too because Scripture is silent. Inventing a theory does not make it true for both of us.
When did Satan fall from the Heavens? Maybe before Adam fell. Scripture is silent so don’t think gap or my comment is absolute truth.
How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan? It does not say. Some joined a rebellion. Gap does not explain this any better than a simple assertion it happened.
Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories? It does not. It is two perspectives of one creation story. One emphasizes material creation, while the next reiteration focuses on man and the Fall. This is standard interpretation. You have a wrong assumption leading to a wrong conclusion. Who said there are 2 creation stories vs one? cf. 4 Gospels is one account with different emphasis. You beg the question to support a preconceived theology.
Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?
There is no flat earth. If you promote it, you affect our credibility as Christians. God can start with chaos and bring complexity. It does not have to mean there was order, chaos, restoration. This is blatant assumption from silence, not exegesis of the revelatory text.
Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives? It does? There is one global flood. There is also 2 givings of the Mosaic Law. That does not mean there are 20 Commandments. Where specifically are 2 floods? Two accounts in different books or passages is NOT 2 floods?!
Age of earth? This is speculation. YEC have a case with radiometric dating new studies and catastrophism vs uniformitarianism. We do not need to compromise with OEC with evolution or gap theory. We can defend a younger earth and universe from the scientific data.
The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why were no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?
The Flood, changes on earth for food supply, etc. is explanatory. Maybe there were dinosaur eggs on the ark. You have an argument from silence and any view from a gap theory would be speculation, not exegesis, so we are in the same boat.
The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?
Original sin is a Catholic tradition, not a biblical truth. Sin and death is explained by Adam and Eve’s choices. There is no need to introduce a gap theory to explain the simple text of Genesis and Romans on this issue.
Jesus affirmed the historicity of Adam and the genealogies confirm it.
A late in church history theory that has mostly been rejected should not be something you think is the end all and be all. I commented off the top of my head. The link I gave gives more valid points. There is also more research, so I am not sure why you are being dogmatic on a fringe theory. This seems to be a propensity with you that lacks critical thinking and discernment. Honestly, Sid Roth is simply not a credible source too often and is sensational and speculative.
Anonymous
There is no exegetical support for the Gap Theory.
It is damnable heresy.
Anonymous
It is a theory, not damnable heresy. Denying the Deity of Christ would fit that category, not a pre-Adam race possibility based on bad speculation.
Anonymous
William Lance Huget I think yall are arguing against gap theory in general and NOT discussing the actual op which disregards the gap theory and noah’s boat Philip Williams hasnt found yet and asks pretty specific questions which yall havent been able to answer for a month now
Where the demons come from?
When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?
Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?
Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?
Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?
Anonymous
Troy Day I briefly answered you. Traditional views are sufficient. Since Scripture is silent, you also have theories not answers and proofs.
Anonymous
William Lance Huget no you did not – if you did and missed it pls point me to the URL link of your answer pls. I’ve seen your comments on gap theory BUT no Biblical answer to the questions at hand Philip Williams dont have the answers either but he will tell you about his Noah papers that were not found on the boat or the boat at that matter
Anonymous
Troy Day there are some mysterious writings! Will have to wait on developments.
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Troy Day I cut and pasted your ? and made a comment. Look again
Anonymous
William Lance Huget still not answering basic questions I see #ohWell
Anonymous
Troy Day I did. You don’t like the answers.