Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars
Click to get our FREE MOBILE APP and stay connected
| PentecostalTheology.com
The Nations In Prophecy
Charles Page
Did PTS prepare Stone for his prophetic call?
Varnel Watson
Jim Daniel Neither Islam nor the United States were existent in the days of giving last Biblical prophecies. Europe however was very much part of John’s life and his understanding about the “whole world”
Jim Daniel
Cyrus was not in existence when Daniel, under the Holy Spirit, called him by name as the deliverer of Israel. Alexander was not born when Daniel saw him as a he goat moving rapidly across the world and saw his kingdom as a leopard with 4 heads and 4 wings. God in His omniscience would have seen the rise of every empire that would ever exist.
Speaking of the whole world issue, let me throw another monkey wrench in what we were taught about prophecy. I heard all my life about the antichrist taking over the whole world as we know it, but what if it only pertains to the world that John knew, i.e. the Middle and Near East and Europe. Both would be possible understandings, but a regional conflict makes sense if the antichrist is Muslim. It also explains his dismay when he hears news from the north and explains how the nations of the east gather their army to come against him at Jerusalem. If he controlled the entire world of our day, it would be difficult for any nations to oppose him. Not so in a regional conflict.
Varnel Watson
Same goes for Gog Magog then
Jim Daniel
I think Gog and Magog and Armageddon are two views of the same conflict. Those who place Gog and Magog at the beginning of the Tribulation neglect to consider how the nations involved would recover from a defeat that destroyed over half your military to fight again just seven years later.
Varnel Watson
Jim Daniel I agree that Gog and Magog and Armageddon are two sides in the same conflict – Gog and Magog being Russia and the prince of Russia
Jim Daniel
Gog and Magog are in Turkey. Look at a Bible atlas or check the internet.
Jim Daniel
P.S. Use the older maps. The new ones tend to be corrupted by modern politics and move Magog from the shores of the Caspian Sea to Europe or Russia.
Varnel Watson
Exactly. And very much part of the revised Roman Empire. We’ve discussed this before with Ricky Grimsley as well as Russia’s post-EU entrance in Turkey (or may be even some sort of union alliance between several countries there) One way or the other Russia remains very much in the prophetic picture as more and more prophetic events are coming to to fulfillment in the area You perhaps noticed how drastic Putin stepped into the Syrian situation by the Turkish border. This was not done from the goodness of hist heart you know… Here’s the old maps you speak of …
Jim Daniel
Forget the Roman Empire. The prophecy was to Babylon, you have to find 4 empires that affected the area of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Islam. Islam by coincidence covers the southern half of the Roman Empire, but it fits the last empire much betyer than Rome.
Varnel Watson
Jim Daniel There has never been an Islam empire called with this name in history Even the Ottoman empire the early Reformers considered to be the antichrist did not fit the description well
The 4 empires in the prophecy are clearly shown
1. Babylon,
2 Medo-Persia,
3 Greece
4. Rome
and the future revised Roman Empire. Yes, Islam could be part of the religion of the NEW revised Roman Empire which had been and is operated from Europe; but there’s not a single scripture of the Bible containing the word Islam as Islam did not even come to existence until 6-7c long after the last book of the cannon was finished
With regard to Islam in general, the only clear prophecy I see about it in the Scriptures has to do with the end time invasion of Israel that will be led by Russia (Ezekiel 38 and 39). The Bible states that Russia will be accompanied by certain specified allies (Ezekiel 38:1-6). The allies include Persia (modern day Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan), Ethiopia, Put (Libya), Gomer (Western Turkey), and Beth-togarmah (Eastern Turkey). As you can see, all of these are countries with a Muslim majority.
Ezekiel 39 reveals that these forces will be destroyed supernaturally by God upon the hills of Israel (Ezekiel 38:18-23 and 39:3-6). Even the Jewish people will realize that the forces were destroyed by God (Ezekiel 38:23 and 39:7).
Jim Daniel
Rome never beheaded people. It killed by crucifixion. Forget Rome. It is dead. It’s not rising. Europe has sold its soul for a vacation at the beach and Islam is taking over.
The text never calls it Rome either. It refers to the kingdom as Babylon.
Rev. 17:8, John, after seeing the woman on the beast, is told that the beast that he saw was and is not. That rules out Rome which was very much in existence in John’s day.
The Antichrist and his kingdom will be Islamic. Not Roman, not Russian. It will be led by Turkey and Persia (Iran). There is not a single non-Muslim nation mentioned by name in all of the propecies of the final conflict. Leave behind what man’s tradition added to the text and let the text speak for itself.
Jon Ruthven
A much better source, based on unique and serious scholarship is *The Prophecy That Is Shaping History: New Research on Ezekiel’s Vision of the End* Amazon.com
Varnel Watson
Actually Jim Daniel In some cultures, such as ancient Rome and Greece, decapitation was regarded as the most honorable form of death 🙂 Cliff Roberson, Dilip K. Das (2008). An Introduction to Comparative Legal Models of Criminal Justice