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The above analysis is a linear time indication. Since the Elder’s time frame differed form the current time frame, this is merely an analysis to distinguish between the different eschatological events. The most obvious order of research would be to follow a linear time approach starting with the ‘now’ and moving towards the ‘not yet’. However, in this article a more sensible approach will be followed. Logically the sequence of discussion will be: the arrival of the ‘last hour’; the revelation of Jesus: parousia and day of judgment;
Anonymous
NOTE HERE J.D. King how Sam also points to the def. article of The liar BUT masterfully omits the def. article before The antiChrist – and you call these men “scholars” https://www.samstorms.org/enjoying-god-blog/post/10-things-you-should-know-about-the-antichrist-s–in-1-john
Anonymous
you see now Oscar Valdez how many ppl got better things to do than talk about the RAPTURE – that will change pretty soon…
Anonymous
καὶ νῦν τὸ κατέχον οἴδατε, εἰς τὸ ἀποκαλυφθῆναι αὐτὸν ἐν τῷ ἑαυτοῦ καιρῷ. τὸ γὰρ μυστήριον ἤδη ἐνεργεῖται τῆς ἀνομίας, μόνον ὁ κατέχων ἄρτι ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται.
1[τὸ γὰρ μυστήριον] 3[ἤδη ἐνεργεῖται] 2[τῆς ἀνομίας—μόνον ὁ κατέχων—] 4[ἄρτι] 5[ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται].
καὶ [even] νῦν [now] τὸ κατέχον [the neuter restrainer ] οἴδατε [you know] εἰς τὸ [that] ἀποκαλυφθῆναι [to be revealed] αὐτὸν [he] ἐν [in] τῷ [the] ἑαυτοῦ [his own] καιρῷ [time] τὸ [the] γὰρ [for] μυστήριον [mystery] ἤδη [already] ἐνεργεῖται [is working] τῆς ἀνομίας [of iniquity ] μόνον [except] ὁ κατέχων [the masculine restrainer] ἄρτι [now] ἕως [until] ἐκ μέσου [from the midst] γένηται [he becomes]
“Even now you know (recognize) the restraining effort, that he should be revealed in his own season. For the mystery of iniquity—except the restrainer—is already working now until he becomes (arises) from the midst.”
I’ll wait… Brett Dobbs Kyle Williams Neil Steven Lawrence
Anonymous
Oscar Valdez your hist.preMil is deluted. Pls read Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1994), 1112. Therefore, Historic Premillennialism is also “posttribulational” meaning that Christ returns after the Great Tribulation.
Anonymous
oh come on Oscar Valdez Link Hudson Kyle Williams J.D. King Philip Williams Dan Anthony itS just a little Greek to you – yall can do better when there is AN actual greek dissertation theological post 🙂
Anonymous
Robert Cox shared this last night
I was taught and believed for many years that there would be a great revival and gathering up of people getting saved at the End Times. However, when I look at what Jesus said in Mat 24, I see something totally different. He said that the love of many would wax cold and debauchery will get worse and worse. I’d like to see a great revival sweep across this country, but frankly it’s not biblical and Jesus said that things would get worse and worse, not better. The only great revival I can see in the End Times is the 144k Jews that will finally accept Jesus as Lord during the Tribulation.
People on fire for God is what brings revival. Not a self serving non holy people that live exactly as the world does that won’t devote time to pray and weep for America…..only attacking each other over political views…..
If I’m wrong, show me scripture to support a great end time gathering/revival
—Pastor Robert—
too bad Brett Dobbs Link Hudson and many other pre-tribbers still cannot show us resurrection of NT saints in MT24… #soSad
Anonymous
Troy Day I somewhat agree with Pastor Robert but with a slightly different perspective. I agree with the fact that a revival will not happen with a self centered unholy church. That’s why a refining needs to occur. Throughout church history, persecution leads to revival.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs of course you do
You also agree with me about NO resurrection in Mt24
but admitting it will shake your eschatology …
Anonymous
Troy Day the love of many waxing cold as the gospel is preached in all the world as a witness. Looks like it might be a mixed bag.
Also people from every language and tribe coming out of the great tribulation. This is said before the chapter with the first resurrection there toward the end. If you aren’t one of the ‘alive and remain’ you want to be in the ‘fitst resurrection’ not that second batch after the thousand years right?
Anonymous
Link Hudson I am not certain how this relates to OP – we have here a very solid philological explanation straight from the NT with the appropriate wording and explanation. How what you said relates to it I am not certain …
The above analysis is a linear time indication. Since the Elder’s time frame differed form the current time frame, this is merely an analysis to distinguish between the different eschatological events. The most obvious order of research would be to follow a linear time approach starting with the ‘now’ and moving towards the ‘not yet’. However, in this article a more sensible approach will be followed. Logically the sequence of discussion will be: the arrival of the ‘last hour’; the revelation of Jesus: parousia and day of judgment;
Anonymous
Troy Day the great falling away and the great Revival are not mutually exclusive. The great Revival is happening around the world as more people are coming to Christ annually than ever before in history. It is also true that there is a great Falling Away occurring at the very same time. Although it may seem paradoxical Matthew 24:14 and 1 Timothy 4:1 are both occurring simultaneously.
Anonymous
Joey Kelly are you talking about this OP or something else? What jab?
Anonymous
The link takes me to your page with s graphic and no explanation. Your page has been displaying similarly at least on one other thread. I don’t know if the graphic is all their is or not. It is fair to assumethat is the post if that is all that displays. The Greek font is fuzzy too.
Anonymous
Troy Day Matt. 24 is about ethnic national Israel in her time of Jacob’s trouble, the 7 year tribulation of Daniel’s 70th week. It is not about the Church.
The true Church can never apostatize.
I Tim. 4 is about tares leaving the churches as the End Times ramps up for fulfillment with the coming great divide between good and evil as in the days of Noah.
Matt. 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 are about ethnic national Israel in Daniel’s 70th week.
I Thes. 4 is about the rapture (I Cor. 15 also).
II Thes. 2 is about the middle of the Trib when Satan is cast down, knowing his time is short (Rev. 12), indwelling the one world leader, entering the Temple, declaring himself to be god, and launching global terror while God pours out His wrath – tribulation such as the world has never seen.
Anonymous
Link Hudson it is sufficient to understand. What’s wrong with it?
Anonymous
Just a chart and a few lines of text headers, showed up.
Anonymous
Link Hudson its a well known already-but-not yet eschatological framework we discussed with Oscar Valdez in regard to progressive dispensationalism. Neil Steven Lawrence surely you studied this w/Land?
Anonymous
Joey Kelly are you claiming in this OP you can show resurrection in Mt 24? pls do!
Anonymous
Joey Kelly this group is about discussing Biblical OP – original post; This one happened to be Greek Biblical topic – why not like it?
Anonymous
The true Church can never apostatize.
I Tim. 4 is about tares leaving the churches as the End Times ramps up for fulfillment with the coming great divide between good and evil as in the days of Noah.
Matt. 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 are about ethnic national Israel in Daniel’s 70th week.
I Thes. 4 is about the rapture (I Cor. 15 also).
II Thes. 2 is about the middle of the Trib when Satan is cast down, knowing his time is short (Rev. 12), indwelling the one world leader, entering the Temple, declaring himself to be god, and launching global terror while God pours out His wrath – tribulation such as the world has never seen.
Anonymous
This is Eschatology 101 level – if youVE never touched Eschatology 101 it will be better if you do not even start with this post Kyle Williams Brett Dobbs Gary Micheal Epping
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs it is in english 🙂 did you not read it again
Anonymous
Troy Day I can read the top line lol
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs you need some basic greek in order to study theology HOW else would you read the BIBLE ?
Anonymous
Troy Day I do pretty well with just the English and a concordance. One doesn’t have to learn the Greek or Hebrew to study theology. Yes it can be helpful but not required.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs THE REVELATION OF JESUS: PAROUSIA AND DAY
OF JUDGMENT
The event of the parousia and the day of judgment are referred to in
this article as a ‘transitional’ event. The ‘present eschatological’ time
will come to an end with the advent of a future eschatological event
of the parousia and day of judgment, and will introduce a new
‘future or final eschatological’ time (cf. Dunn 2003:295). This
understanding is reflected in the close relationship that exists
between verses 2:28; 3:2f and 4:17, which help us to understand
what the Elder tries to communicate concerning this eschatological
event. These three verses are related, as indicated by cognate
expressions, indicated by the following comparison. Only the
applicable phrases were selected for this comparative analysis.
Anonymous
Troy Day which verses is being referenced? Is that Revelation 2:28 3:? 4:17 ?there isn’t a 4:17.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs 1 John 4:17, NIV: This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment:
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence I think your comment was meant for this OP per my reference of Land – this is not his construct per se THOUGH you have heard him argue already but not yet time and again
Yeah, it’s a good one. His name is not attributed? He points out something I’ve recently been emphasizing – that “those who are alive when Jesus comes..” will be glorified instantly and not even taste death. They will be the only generation in human history to experience this. This is a great blessing, showing one more facet of Yahweh’s grace. Post-Tribbers will of course go kicking and screaming “I was wrong!!!!!!!” “I was wrooooong!!!!!!!!”
I wonder IF Kyle Williams Brett Dobbs would agree with an already not yet frameworks – most reformed DO agree
Anonymous
Kyle Williams Brett Dobbs what in the explanation here is still NOT clear?
The above analysis is a linear time indication. Since the Elder’s time frame differed form the current time frame, this is merely an analysis to distinguish between the different eschatological events. The most obvious order of research would be to follow a linear time approach starting with the ‘now’ and moving towards the ‘not yet’. However, in this article a more sensible approach will be followed. Logically the sequence of discussion will be: the arrival of the ‘last hour’; the revelation of Jesus: parousia and day of judgmen
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence Brett Dobbs John Mushenhouse Duane L Burgess THE REVELATION OF JESUS: PAROUSIA AND DAY
OF JUDGMENT
The event of the parousia and the day of judgment are referred to in
this article as a ‘transitional’ event. The ‘present eschatological’ time
will come to an end with the advent of a future eschatological event
of the parousia and day of judgment, and will introduce a new
‘future or final eschatological’ time. This
understanding is reflected in the close relationship that exists
between verses 2:28; 3:2f and 4:17, which help us to understand
what the Elder tries to communicate concerning this eschatological
event. These three verses are related, as indicated by cognate
expressions, indicated by the following comparison. Only the
applicable phrases were selected for this comparative analysis.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs Kyle Williams Philip Williams 1 John 4:17, NIV: This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment:
Anonymous
Troy Day okay I’m with you now.
1 John 2:28-28 (KJV) And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 1 John 3:2-2 (KJV) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 4:17-17 (KJV) Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Amen!
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs glad you read it…
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m still waiting on you to read my post
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs I already responded after reading your post Pls read my response and apply if you would like the group to discuss
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m talking about this post. I don’t see any comments from you.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs yes – read my response on it if you havent
Anonymous
Troy Day there isn’t a response. Did it get deleted or something?
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs nope – still there
Anonymous
Troy Day strange. I don’t understand why I can’t see it. Take a screen shot of it.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs John Mushenhouse Neil Steven Lawrence Duane L Burgess
It is a terminus technicus for the incarnation of Jesus in the past (1:2; 3:5,
8; 4:9), it is used to unmask the deceivers in the present (2:19), and
also to describe the Elder’s expectation for the future (2:28; 3:2).
The fact that the future revelation is in view here is confirmed by the
fact that the revelation of Christ is equated with his parousia Thus the Elder wants to depict these two events
(incarnation and parousia) as a ‘single, all-embracing manifestation
or epiphany of God. In both these events God becomes visible on
earth. At his first appearance the Son of God came to bring salvation
(4:9, 10, 14) and to destroy the works of the devil (3:8). The first
coming was an epiphany of God’s love (4:9), of his redemptive
involvement (3:5), whereas in the parousia Christ will appear as
Judge18 =, as an epiphany of God’s
righteousness (1:9; 2:29; also 2:1 [Christ]).
Therefore, in the three texts about the future eschatological
events, the Elder also exhorts his adherents to ‘prepare’ themselves
for the parousia and the day of judgment, so that they may have
confidence and not be put to shame before him at his coming, and
also to become like him, for they will see him as he is—-
Anonymous
Troy Day ok I’m with you here. What’s the conclusion?
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs you tell us
Anonymous
Troy Day
This part here:
Therefore, in the three texts about the future eschatological
events, the Elder also exhorts his adherents to ‘prepare’ themselves
for the parousia and the day of judgment, so that they may have
confidence and not be put to shame before him at his coming, and
also to become like him, for they will see him as he is—-
We should be prepared for his coming (rapture) and day of judgement aka day of the Lord. So that your not taken as thief, but go up first before he comes all the way down and takes the world as a thief. And this event happens on the same day. It’s the day of Christ for us, and the Day of the Lord for everyone else. And that same day begins the 1,000 year kingdom.
Anonymous
Not seeing any real explanation here. Is this trying to adapt Ladd’s historical premil theory to pretrib?