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Charles Page | PentecostalTheology.com
Do you believe in the “deeper life movement”? The belief that Paul left Romans 7 and lived in chapter 8. He moved from wretchedness to happiness! C. I. Scofield perpetuated this belief and is perhaps as responsible for the Pentecostal movement as anyone in the movement itself.
John Kissinger [04/24/2015 10:35 AM]
Been re-reading on Parham, McPherson, Etter, etc. this week. I guess Scofield could be included as well, but what about his belief on the baptism with the Holy Spirit? — QUOTE “But, while it is true that every regenerate believer is indwelt by the Spirit, and by the Spirit baptized into Christ, it is of the very deepest moment to note that the Acts and Epistles discriminate between possessing the Spirit, and being filled with the Spirit.” http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/sco/act002.htm
Charles Page [04/24/2015 11:11 AM]
As a Pentecostal pastor I relied heavily on Scofield’s notes for Acts. “one baptism many fillings” I edited out the ultra dispensational views about the gifts being only for the primitive assemblies.
He made the proper distinction between the baptism of the Spirit and baptism in and with the Spirit. I thought Pentecostals dropped the ball by calling the Pentecostal experience “baptism of the Holy Ghost” -which was the new birth/regeneration. The baptism of Jesus, promise of the Father, was enduement for service.
John Kissinger [04/24/2015 11:39 AM]
His “Plain Papers on the Holy Spirit” is available online http://www.wholesomewords.org/etexts/scofield/scoholy.pdf
John Walters [04/24/2015 1:52 PM]
Charles what is the difference between baptism in and off the Holy Spirit please?
John Walters [04/24/2015 1:54 PM]
By the way I don’t expect Scofields pre-trib doctrine, is there any Pentecostal ls or Pentecostal churches that don’t either? I know im a minority lol
Charles Page [04/24/2015 2:49 PM]
Baptism of the Spirit is new birth/regeneration and the baptism Christ promised is what the Pentecostals proclaim. I believe that the oneness people say that the Holy Spirit baptism w/tongues is regeneration/new birth. being born again is evidenced by speaking in tongues.
Charles Page [04/24/2015 2:51 PM]
I reject Scofield’s pre-trib millennial and his despensationalism
John Kissinger [04/24/2015 3:27 PM]
Are you a part of the Bride of Christ? If not, you will be lift behind to face the Wrath of God. Why not accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord now, become a part of the Bride of Christ and be ready for the Rapture of the Church. https://www.facebook.com/groups/thelogy/permalink/830048097050207/
John Kissinger [04/24/2015 3:58 PM]
Answering those who dismiss Jeremiah 49 regarding the future of #ISRAEL
Mary Ellen Nissley
Paul said “I am carnal” and this was the root of his trouble.
Can Christians be carnal?
You bet. That’s the whole reason Paul wrote 1st Corinthians.
There is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, if they walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
But there is plenty of condemnation for those who are in Christ, but who after the flesh.
And if you claim Christians don’t walk after the flesh, I think you need new glasses… and a new mirror!
“Therefore” of Romans 8:1 is pointing back to the last verse of Romans 7.
This is a man who is born again. the “I myself” is the real Paul. It is the spirit man, who longs to walk according to the commandments of God.
But “with the flesh the law of sin” points to the state of one who, even though he is born again, yet he has not “grown up” as Ephesians 4 urges.
Didn’t Paul equate carnality with spiritual babyhood, in 1 Corinthians 3?
The standpoint of Scripture is not “if you are perfect, then you are God’s children,” but rather, “Since you are God’s children, become more perfect.”
And this, I believe, explains Romans 7 very well.
Charles Page
This is close to Donald Bowdle’s belief in the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Walter Polasik
I once had a small paperback, an excerpt from this publication by Scofield. From what I remember reading though, it’s amazing that Scofield himself was, in the end, a committed Cessationist none the less. Of course, there were many figures within 19th century Evangelicalism who also contributed to a later Pentecostal understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit who themselves recognized the Bible teaching some of these things and yet who did not themselves, in the end, commit to the final step in the theological equation. The status quo of the time held sway too much. Even today, we have stubborn, die-hard stalwarts like John McArthur Jr. who have made it their entire ministerial career to lambast Pentecostalism.
Other figures like R. A. Torrey (1856-1928) and A. W. Tozer (1897-1963) also greatly influenced what became not only a Pentecostal theology of the Holy Spirit (and, of course we would say a BIBLICAL theology, as opposed to traditional teaching), but ultimately would result in a great blessing of experiencing God and understanding revival. It’s interesting how Tozer, for instance, approached the issue of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. He was one of the few teachers at the turn of the century who recognized a subsequence to salvation in the whole work of the Holy Spirit. You can listen to him here: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=10102215723
Charles Page
I’ve read and re-read Tozer’s Path to Power
Walter Polasik
This is from Sermon Audio and has him preaching three messages on the Holy Spirit and the Baptism.
Walter Polasik
The problem today is that Pentecostals are waging a two-front war, at least doctrinally speaking. On the one hand there is the continual defense of the dynamic view of the Holy Spirit to Cessationists, open-but-cautious evangelicals and other skeptics (like atheists). On the other hand those of us who want to be faithful to the Bible and honor what it ACTUALLY teaches about the work of the Holy Spirit in the church and in the world must often correct or speak out against needless sensationalists who posit new and unbiblical things in the name of the Holy Spirit thus giving Christianity, and particularly Pentecostalism, a “black eye”.
Theologically, Charismaticism, while not disingenuous, nevertheless has the problem of unsure footing. Depending on who you ask, the Baptism in the Holy Spirit could be anything. I once read an Anglican Charismatic who said that he got “goosebumps” one day as he was praying in church and it was then, he knew, that he had been baptized in the Spirit. The Baptism, however, not only has an initial evidence but also has following characteristics that attest to the fact that an individual has, indeed, been given power to be a witness for Christ. Cessationists are not incorrect when they say that a lot of Pentecostalism has turned into a mere seeking after an experience without the earmarks of true power for witness and evangelism.
Then there is one final thing. Our present movement, represented, for instance, most notably in the Assemblies of God (which is my background) has a bit of self-reflection on its hands. Why? Because we spend a lot of time TALKING about the Spirit, the Baptism, gifts and power and also make a considerable lot of NOISE in our meetings. We have huge sound-systems, dynamic preachers and a lot of “hoop-lah” in the responding audience. I recently watched a Facebook broadcast of a local Apostolic church which I intend to visit just to learn more. The preacher was huffing and puffing and the message wasn’t bad (it wasn’t as substantial as the kind of preaching I’m used to but…..) the responses were lively etc. But to the point: Where is the supernatural? Where are the gifts? Increasingly as I visit various Pentecostal churches I hear either nothing or fakery. (Repeating the same syllable over and over as I’ve observed in one UPC meeting I attended doesn’t count as “tongues”). So, again, a critic might come and say, “Well, you TALK a lot about it. Where is it?” And then there is the issue of how many of us are using our gifts out there in the world, as we live a witness for Christ? (See R. L. Brandt “Gifts for the Marketplace”). https://www.amazon.com/Gifts-Marketplace-R-L-Brandt/dp/0881441422.
Varnel Watson
Well, we have Pentecostals who believe entire sanctification and initial evidence of speaking in tongues and then we have the rest of the charismatics who believe whatever and are less baptistic than the Pope himself
Walter Polasik
Now, Troy, you caught me by surprise there. Did you say, “entire sanctification”? (As in, the Baptism makes us completely sinless etc.?) You do know that such a doctrine is not Biblical, right? Sanctification is two-fold: 1. Positionally in Christ we stand holy before God the Father due to Christ’s work on the cross and present intercession in our behalf. 2. Functionally we are GROWING in sanctification as the Holy Spirit continues to work in our lives so that we are “changed from glory to glory”. I hope you’re not teaching “zap holiness”. It just don’t work that way bro. 😉
Varnel Watson
Baptism and Sanctification are 2 different things / doctrines http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/contrary-to-calvinism-i-believe-sanctification-is-subsequent/
Walter Polasik
In a nutshell, you can’t be JUSTIFIED until you are first SANCTIFIED (positionally) by Christ. Nothing unclean can dwell in His presence. So, yes, they DO go together. It is correct that FUNCTIONALLY, sanctification is something we WORK OUT. This is the meaning of Philippians 2:12. Of course this is different than working FOR our salvation.
Varnel Watson
Charles Page will try to prove you the opposite
katrina test
Big difference between being filled with Holy Spirit at your spirit birth such as Nicodemus was explained and in Acts being baptized (submerged running over) with the Holy Spirit and evidence speaking in tongues… OR else why did Paul ask those have you recieved “since” you believed? They said saved we know but haven’t heard about baptizm of Holy Spirit……… and they received and began to speak in tongues. AND no where does scripture say it was only for disciples. Otherwise, why did I receive baptism. My Heavenly Father gives good gifts. Amen.