| Marc Jackson |
Emanuel Rodriguez Without further adieu I give you DR. FRENCH L. ARRINGTON Pass him and you are more than welcome to debate me on the topic Ed Brewer |
| Jeanette Elizondo |
I agree with your view on total abstinence for Christians !!! |
| Eric Phillips |
Troy I was born and raised COG, my grandfather was a pioneer Pastor in the COG….they were founded by a Methodist and a Baptist….in the Methodist tradition they have always been abstainers this is not news.As always they refer to New Wine or watered down wine which has no actual historical basis, even if it did exist it still had alcohol content at least much like modern day beer which in most cases is only 4% to 5% alcohol which still means early christians were not abstainers.I am not pro alcohol, I am in no way encouraging anyone to do something in violation of their conscience. I am saying please don’t insult my intelligence when all of history says different than a modern man made doctrine that is distinctly regional in its application (US and even more so a Southern US thing). God is a worldwide God and holiness is not a regional standard.The problem with any thing that the COG or anyone else puts out on alcohol is that they always and only give extreme examples of drunken out of control behavior. We all agree the Bible is clear on drunkeness and self control….no one is debating that.But to infer somehow that a husband and wife who share a glass of wine with dinner is somehow unholy or sinful is simply ludacris and extreme in the other direction.The bible teaches moderation and self control in any and all things that are allowed under Christian liberty and not strictly prohibited by scripture.Drunkeness is wrong becuase of the loss of self control which leads to all of the other abusive sins associated with alcohol abuse. |
| Melvin Shomo |
I personally do not drink but I do agree with you..My thought are that we as Christians need to be a shining example unto others. If we like to keep a case of beer on hand and have a fellow Christian come by that isn’t very learned in scripture, then it is better to keep the beer out of view. The Bible has said not to give place to the devil, and this brother who is week in the faith could take it the wrong way.. |
| Marc Jackson |
Eric Phillips Why would you feel that this article by DR. FRENCH L. ARRINGTON insults your intelligence ? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-french-l-arrington…/ |
| Eric Phillips |
He states he can’t say whether or not the water Jesus turned to wine had alcohol content or not….but goes onto hypothesize that it did not while later admitting it could.He admits that new testament believers drank what he calls water downed wine.He explains they drank wine as an alternative to the dirty contaminated water of that day and that he estimates based on some other guys theory an alcohol content of 4% to 6% or roughly the same as a modern beer.The insulting part is he tells us they drink wine to avoid contaminated water, only to tell us they take this same filthy water and pour it into good wine 4 parts pond scum to 1 part wine.To believe that I would either have to believe they were some pretty stupid people to contaminate their alternative drink or I would have to be stupid to believe that they were that dumb.And lastly show me any other thing that was not a sin in the NT, something that was permissable, that is now a sin like alcohol is made out to be? And what was the date when it changed from being ok, to your going to hell now for drinking it? |
| Vickie Embry |
Ex causes |
| Marc Jackson |
Melvin Harter What does your organization’s Practical Commitments require from ministers and members per Dr. Arrington’s exegesis? |
| Randal W Deese |
It is an historical fact that the Christian church has used alcoholic wine in the Lords supper, during the days of the Apostles and throughout history until the abstinence movement. Therefore, I would suggest that it is more holy to use alcoholic wine then grape juice, both biblically and historically. The introduction of novel Doctrines does not make them more correct nor more holy |
| Melvin Harter |
Let me first say that I find it is a total disgrace to the CoG (Cleveland, TN) for such a subject to be mentioned, let alone for Dr French Arrington to have to write such a statement. I also noticed that even though this particular writing was in recent days (February 2018), I did notice that an earlier writing by Dr Arrington was posted in 2012, which suggests to me that this subject must have been discussed even then. I studied Greek 2 under Dr Arrington at Lee College (University) in the early 1970s. Dr Arrington is an outstanding Professor and his writings can be totally relied upon. Now why is alcoholism a discussion issue today? Have you ever thought about that? I contend there are two definite factors that bring about this type of a discussion: (1) the international arm of the CoG; and, (2) the neglect of the Doctrine of Sanctification being taught at Lee College (University). When the CoG expanded primarily into Europe, having wine with their dinner was a common factor with the European Christians. Instead of the CoG contending against such, they begin to make the argument of acceptance and were influenced by our European brethren. And secondly, at Lee College, designated classes were conducted on subjects such as (1) Soteriology (Doctrine/Study of Salvation) and (2) Pneumatology (Doctrine/Study of the Holy Spirit). However, there was not even one course offered on the Doctrine of Sanctification. I recall the Doctrine of Sanctification was only brought up in Dr John Sims’ class, Dr Hollis Gause’s Systematic Theology class and in Dr French Arrington’s Greek 2 classes, particularly as it related to our Exegetical Studies. So in essence, the Doctrine of Sanctification was never fully emphasized in our studies at Lee College. I believe it is due to these two factors as to why there is discussion for acceptance of social drink in the CoG.I would encourage every CoG minister & layman to listen to a sermon entitled SOCIAL SINS by CoG minister Dr Ray H Hughes, Sr, a video that I posted on YouTube. |
| Eric Phillips |
Influenced by our European brethren who founded most of Christianity’s modern churches and contended for Christ and the church before America even existed! But yes your right we need to explain a thing or two to them about church history (there history)! I’m reminded of that old hymn “The Church of God is right hallelujah praise the lamb!” Lol |
| Eric Phillips |
Dr. Hughes was a great man, not infallible however. I went to Lee myself with some of his grandkids…pretty sure the amount of trouble they stayed in…. they never listened to Papaw lol |
| Melvin Harter |
But Bro Eric Phillips, America was basically founded by those who sought religious freedom from the religious restraints in Europe. |
| Eric Phillips |
Yes and Melvin Harter I guess your gonna tell me the pilgrims who came here drank fresh water on the trip over across the Atlantic? This is my point to agree with you I would have to suspend logic.Also you do realize the only way the colonies survived was to sale there only cash crop back to Europe? What was it? Tobacco.I am not pro alcohol or pro tobacco however to deny there place in church and American history is what I don’t understand.I respect your position on abstinence from drinking and it may be best to advise that…but not in the context as a damnable offense. Alcoholism is a serious thing as is any addiction. Bu to not differentiate between drinking and drunkeness which the Bible itself does is where you lose me doctrinally.I know many fine men and women who share your stance, I have preached it myself…but the more I studied the Bible and actual human history itself it does not line up with that view. |
| Melvin Harter |
Eric Phillips then why did you preach it? |
| Eric Phillips |
Because it’s what I was indoctrinated with my entire life and I never questioned it until I started studying on my own. |
| Melvin Harter |
I think you have lost your way my brother. You need to return to the old paths again. |
| Vickie Embry |
Alcoholic has ruin many family killed people in my eyes it.s evil |
| Melvin Harter |
Vickie Embry So true my sister. It has destroyed many families & lives and sent millions of souls to a devil’s hell. So many in the Church have been deceived into thinking social drinking is okay. We need voices to cry out against such a damnable Doctrine that is being taught in many churches by worldly ministers. God bless you Sister Embry. |
| Vickie Embry |
Yes too many feel good church I know one church they had a super bowl party an serve beer what a shame I feel sorry for the preacher needs to teach the Bible |
| Melvin Harter |
Vickie Embry GOD HELP US. |
| Vickie Embry |
I’m glad in old fashion |
| Marc Jackson |
I liked Dr.Arrington’s statement. Guess the question was more of how your organizations practical commitments propose to deal with ministers or members who drink (socially) Ed Brewer |
| Randal W Deese |
I would suggest that the biblical way of dealing with presbyters who socially drink is to make sure that they are not partying and not getting drunk. |
| Randal W Deese |
I should change that to exhort as opposed to make sure… I’m not there daddy |
| Melvin Harter |
How does an organization deal with social drinkers who are in their ministry or lay members of their church? That’s a simple answer. You EXCOMMUNICATE them. |
| Randal W Deese |
Oops … There goes Jesus |
| Melvin Harter |
Randal W Deese Not true my brother |
| Randal W Deese |
Melvin Harter We will have to disagree on this one brother |
| Melvin Harter |
Disagree or not my brother, but show one scripture where Jesus sponsored a party where liquor was promoted. There are none. Regarding the Marriage in Cana, there is a distinct difference between NEW WINE & OLD WINE. And I do not believe the scripture will contend that Jesus turned water into OLD WINE. |
| Randal W Deese |
Melvin Harter Next you’ll try to convince me that they didn’t get drunk on communion wine in first Corinthians chapter 11 |
| Randal W Deese |
That alone shows that communion wine was alcoholic….And another is drunken – The word used here (μεθυÌω methuoÌ„) means properly to become inebriated, or intoxicated; and there is no reason for understanding it here in any other sense. |
| Melvin Harter |
No, Brother Randal W Deese, you failed to read verses 18-19. There were divisions and heresies in the Corinthian Church. Have you ever considered that drunkenness in vs 21 may be a heresy? |
| Randal W Deese |
Melvin Harter They were drunk because they drank too much communion wine. Read the Greek text |
| Melvin Harter |
There were divisions & heresies. Don’t you think it may have been somewhat connected to Communion? |
| Randal W Deese |
Melvin Harter “haireseis†a choosing, taking sides, holding views of one party, heresy (our word). “Heresy is theoretical schism, schism practical heresy.†Cf. Tit 3:10; 2Pe 2:1. In Paul only here and Gal 5:20. |
| Link Hudson |
That is in direct violation to Romans 14. You do not judge them. If they aren’t given to much wine and they don’t get drunk, you should not condemn them.Pentecostals should abstain from dumping their legalism on unbelievers and new converts,too. |
| Link Hudson |
Melvin Harter If there were a drinking heresie, then it would have been a faction dedicated to drinking or that separated from others based on drinking. I don’t see any evidence of that happening in I Corinthians. But could a church that excommunicates believers who drink like Jesus drank (non-sinfully), as you would recommend, be creating a heresy by their divisive behavior? |
| Marc Jackson |
SOCIAL SINS by CoG minister Dr Ray H Hughes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd7kC7QXFDs |
| Melvin Harter |
Simply put, everyone who drinks alcoholic beverages and liquor GO TO HELL. |
| Eric Phillips |
Lol cause I’m Melvin Harter and I said so!I thought God was the judge and the only one who could pronounce judgement and eternal damnation?You having a fit if rage is not really a way to convince others to look seriously at your arguement when you come off like the opening act at a WWE event. |
| Melvin Harter |
Eric Phillips not because I said so, but because God says so. Isaiah says for us to Lift up our voice like a trumpet. Show my people their sin. |
| Eric Phillips |
But he did not call you to call things sinful, wine in moderation, that he himself did not deem sinful….so yes it is you saying so….you cannot show one verse that backs up what you are saying above, not one that says anyone who has a drink goes to hell.But I can show you what the Bible says about adding to or taking away from his word…to not even add or delete a dot on an I…your adding entire thoughts…dangerous ground.Lastly “showing them there sin” and passing judgement as to decide who will condemend to hell are two different things.Judgement is the Lords.Acts 10:13-15 |
| Link Hudson |
Where do preachers go who make up doctrine contrary to the Bible and condemn other believers to Hell?Jesus drank. You can’t be holier to Jesus by holding to a man-made standard that He did not adhere to. Your post typifies what is wrong with some streams of Pentecostalism and Holiness type teaching, the self-righteous, holier-than-thou man-made legalism aspect of it. Let’s get back to the Bible. Bible over tradition, even Pentecostal tradition.That kind of preaching ‘aint holy. God has the right to condemn men to Hell. Preachers don’t have the right to condemn men to Hell for not living up to their man-made standards. |
| Eric Phillips |
Melvin Harter…when the disciples came out of the Upper Room….tell me why they needed to explain that they were “not drunk with wine as you suppose”?If they were such notorious teetotalers explain the need for that exclaimation? |
| Melvin Harter |
Bro Eric Phillips, why would you require an explanation when the scriptures are plainly stated? It was not the believers who were stating the 120 were drunk. Peter did not quote from the book of Joel to the saints. Just because the saints were baptized in the Holy Ghost and gave an appearance of being drunk on alcohol did not and even today does not mean they actually consumed alcohol. So how do you state they were teetotalers? Do not confuse the 120 on the Day of Pentecost with the total CoG at Corinth. |
| Eric Phillips |
Acts 2:1 -16 …. I am not confused and you did not answer my question …. if they never drank why caveat the statement with seeing it is only the 3rd hour of the morning or 9 AM. If they never drank why add that? Time of day would not matter for someone who abstained 100% correct? |
| Eric Phillips |
Not only not drunk with wine as you suppose….but at this hour of the morning…infering you may find them festive later in the evening and not think it strange. |
| Melvin Harter |
Wine is a mocker. |
| Marc Jackson |
It’s funny to me how someone can take a Scripture that clearly says they do not drink, and twist it to they may drink |
| Eric Phillips |
Good greif I did not twist anything, and as usual you have not answered any of my questions.Funny to me for a guy who likes to act like he has all the answers.I simply ask again why announce your not drunk with wine this early in the morning? |
| Marc Jackson |
Eric I was actually responding to bro Melvin but you are welcome to jump in with any comment you may offer on the original Greek of this verse. On another note, you seem to be taking this discussion against drinking way too personal. You probably have a personal reasons to do that and are welcome to share them. But please keep in mind we are all here to discuss theology not personal issues Thanks |
| Eric Phillips |
Lol Troy you make me laugh, thank you for the humor.I don’t see a discussion of theology on this subject I see you doing what you do anytime someone disagress with your opinion. |
| Randal W Deese |
Can one imagine that God would encourage an alcoholic beverage. Oh my! The ignored tithe passage:Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; [your tithe. See vs 1] or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or FOR WINE, or FOR STRONG DRINK, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,Deu 14:27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee. |
| Melvin Harter |
Every alcoholic started with his first drink. |
| Randal W Deese |
Every adulterer started with his first sexual experience. Ok. So! |
| Melvin Harter |
There is a vast difference between the two. |
| Melvin Harter |
We are commanded to “shun the very appearance of evil.†|
| Randal W Deese |
From a Biblical perspective, alcohol isn’t evil. God even encouraged using it in the verses above – in His Holy, Pure and Righteous Law. |
| Melvin Harter |
Wrong again my brother. |
| Randal W Deese |
Melvin Harter Explain the verses I quoted above. Your controversy is not with me, but Scripture. |
| Link Hudson |
Wine is not evil. God gave oil to make men’s face shine, and wine to make men’s heart merry, like the Bible says. Drinking wine in moderation is evil to men who have been pre-programmed to judge others by legalism in their church tradition. |
| Melvin Harter |
Let not your good be evil spoken of. |
| Eric Phillips |
That assumes wine is evil, which contradicts scripture. |
| Melvin Harter |
Eric Phillips not true |
| Melvin Harter |
The drinking of alcohol will damn your soul to hell. |
| Randal W Deese |
Why do you keep damning Jesus to hell? John the Baptist did not drink wine (oinos in the Greek) or any other form of alcohol because it was prophesied that he wouldn’t (Luke 1:15). However, Jesus Christ did drink oinos (wine) (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:34). Jesus did not preach against the use of wine; instead he did like most other Jews of his day. |
| Melvin Harter |
Randal W Deese , did you read Dr Arrington’s Report? Wine was not the same as it is today. And why would Jesus promote the drinking of wine when in doing so, sends you to HELL |
| Eric Phillips |
You can in no way prove that and his report is not scripture.He is a fine man, but his article stretches to prove his point not to actually give an accurate historical account.Melvin Harter sure wants somebody to go to hell over this subject |
| Melvin Harter |
I CORINTHIANS 6:10, “Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor DRUNKARDS, nor revilers, nor extortioners, SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.†If one does not inherit the kingdom of God, then the conclusion is, he is in HELL. |
| Eric Phillips |
Melvin Harter….yep Drunkards…not drinkers…you know like….gluttons…. not eaters!We ALL AGREE DRUNKENESS IS SINFUL BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SO!WE DON’T AGREE THAT A DRINK OR DRINKING IN MODERATION LIKE IS REPLETE THROUGHOUT BOTH THE OT AND NT IS SINFUL….BECAUSE IT IS NOT DRUNKENESS AND THE BIBLE DOES NOT CALL IT SIN.Good grief you need to spend a little time studying etymology…words and there meanings matter. |
| Melvin Harter |
If you never take the first drink of alcohol, you will have nothing to worry about. But if you take the first drink, it will lead you deeper into sin. There are many scriptures to address total abstinence. Only those unsanctified souls promote social drink. A saint of God will have no desire to even take one drink of liquor. |
| Randal W Deese |
Melvin Harter Baloney. |
| Melvin Harter |
Randal W Deese , Say what you want. But what if you are wrong? |
| Randal W Deese |
Melvin Harter What if you are guilty adding to the Word of God? Serious business my friend… |
| Melvin Harter |
Randal W Deese you must not have been a Church of God minister. |
| Link Hudson |
Melvin Harter Having a glass of wine and being a drunkard aren’t the same thing. Do you damn people for having some wine mixed with water? |
| Link Hudson |
Melvin HarterIn the context of this passage, what did the Son of Man drink?Luke 733 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!John did not drink WINE. The Son of Man came drinking. The Son of man drank ______?Do you ever encounter a Baptist who believes that if someone repeats a prayer after a preacher, he can go out and fornicate and kill people and he’s guaranteed a place in heaven? Do you ever think how can someone be so steeped in tradition as to hold to it even when you show him verses to the contrary?Have you ever stopped to think what your beliefs about alcohol, even the extreme of damning people for drinking a little of it, are based on? It isn’t the Bible. |
| Vickie Embry |
I agree |
| Link Hudson |
If someone wants to abstain, that’s fine. I’d say there are two problems with it– abstaining from the Lord’s Supper is undesirable, certainly if you do it all the time. Secondly, Paul opposed the idea of Timothy engaging in total abstinence, apparently. He wanted him to drink a little wine for his stomach’s sake.Still, I find this article to have some logical problems. He says, “He instructs the church leaders, whether pastors (1 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 1:7) or deacons (1 Tim. 3:8,) regarding the consumption of alcohol to be “blameless,†strongly implying total abstinence is the Biblical standard.”Look at I Timothy 3:8. It contradicts his conclusion. Look up that verse in the Greek. How can you get total abstinence out of a command that deacons not be given to much wine? If they are not to be given to much wine, they can drink some.And some people do drink dilluted wine. I hear farmers in the field in Italy drink a bit of wine with lots of water. I’ve also read the interpretation that ‘strong drink’ is undilluted wine.If you grew up in a Methodist-and-temperance-movement-influenced religion, like Pentecostals or Southern Baptist, maybe some mild drinking would be considered a reproach. But it is not from a Biblical perspective.Jesus drank wine and gave the apostles wine and told them to drink it. So how can we be holy by looking down our noses on people Who did what Jesus did. Isn’t the ‘holier-than-thou’ condemning attitude that a lot of Pentecostals have toward those who drink like Jesus drank (non-sinfully and in moderation) a problem that pastors need to address? Instead of writing articles in favor of teetotalalism, which we know is not required in scripture, why not also address the issue of legalistic snobby false holiness that consists of adhering to manmade standards (e.g. ‘Taste not’) that God does not require, while looking judgmentally down on those who do not adhere to them.Even John Wesley did not outright condemn the drinking of wine in moderation. He preached against the dangers of distilled liquors. Drunks addicted to gin were an issue in his day, and the preaching evolved to condemning drinking wine and beer in moderation. I was raised not drinking wine, beer, etc. I’ve probably drunk much less alcohol (mainly as cough medicine or residual amounts in Japanese or Italian food) than most preachers I’ve encountered who are opposed to alcohol. Other than cough medicine and small amounts in food cooked with wine, about two years ago, I had maybe an 8th of a glass of red wine on a plan two years ago when I had a throat infection forming in my throat while flying to China for a job interview process that required a presentation and a demo class. It really helped my throat a lot. I’ve never been drunk or tipsy from drinking.I say that as a non-drinker, because the legalistic condemning type of Pentecostal likes to respond to reasonable posts on the topic of drinking by accusing the poster of being a drunk, being against holiness.You can’t be holier than Jesus. |
| Melvin Harter |
We are commanded not to even have fellowship with drunkards – I Corinthians 5:11. |
| Link Hudson |
Romans 14 gives us some wisdom on this:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.Paul applies his teaching to drinking wine later in the chapter. Those who are opposed to drinking wine should take this advise as well. The should not judge those who drink in moderation, and give thanks to God.I don’t know if there were any teetotalers in Paul’s day who’d invented a doctrine of it. Timothy may have been completely abstaining for whatever reason, and Paul did not agree with that. Paul could have been a temporary teetotaler if he had a Nazarite vow, but from grapes, grape juice, and raisins also. I don’t think the post-Wesley doctrine existed then. There may have been some gnostic type groups or ascetics of different types who wanted to abstain from certain foods to be holy. My guess would be Paul’s reference to drinking wine might have had something to do with the fear that some of the wine sold in the marketplace had been poured out as a libation to a false god before being sold. Either that or it could have been some sort of kosher issue. |
| Marc Jackson |
Romans 14 speaks specifically to eating (or not eating) sacrifice Has nothing to do with social drinking. It is a far stretch by any exegetical rule. It also insults people who dont drink as weak in the faith which is nowhere close to what Paul was talking about BTW as a I understand Melvin Harter properly any member of the organization called Church of God is NOT allowed to drink per their Practical Commitments. Therefore, no one who drinks wine, beer, stronger drink can hold membership or claim any association with the Church of God. Is this well understood? Ed Brewer |
| Randal W Deese |
It is a serious stretch of the imagination and an anachronistic fallacy to teach that social drinking was not the norm in Biblical days. They all drank wine as much as water at every social gathering. |
| Marc Jackson |
Dont think Jesus was in anachronistic fallacy when he said in Matthew 26:29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” |
| Link Hudson |
Marc I don’t get your point about anachronistic fallacy. He drank the fruit of the vine then. The disciples were to continue drinking it. |
| Randal W Deese |
Marc You didn’t make any sense. |
| Marc Jackson |
I simply quoted what Jesus said – what does not make sense to you in the Words of Jesus? |
| Link Hudson |
Marc When did Jesus say ‘anachronistic fallacy’. That part didn’t make sense. The anachronistic fallacy would be to assume that first century Jews or Christians held to 19th century Holiness movement beliefs against consumption of any alcoholic beverage. |
| Marc Jackson |
That was the term used by Randal W Deese BTW Link you are getting sidetracked again – Are you yourself a Church of God member who drinks beer, wine, stronger drink? |
| Link Hudson |
Marc I haven’t claimed I am a part of the Cleveland denomination, but I don’t know if GBI has any teetotaler rules at the denominational level. I’d be a bit surprised if they did. When I went to one in the 1990’s. someone had brought back some real wine from Israel in one of the congregations and they’d mix it into the communion wine. I would suspect GPDI to be more likely to have such rules, and they are with Foursquare now. |
| Eric Phillips |
Troy Day seems to have a strange love affair with the Practical Commitments of the COG.Notice these are extra and above the Doctrinal Commitments.If you excommunicate any and everyone who doesn’t follow in full the Practical Commitments of the COG you would have to shut many churches and most Pastors would lose their credentials.All non-tithers OUT!Those who don’t submit to the authority placed over them in the Lord OUT!If you read under Spiritual Example and then under Good Stewards it even tells us how to spend our time….they may deem our debate as a waste of time! OUT! It speaks out against to much leisure time OUT!It talks about the wise use of money! All the Preachers who built buildings they couldn’t fill or pay for, all the state offices that just about went under a few years ago and the Int’l Leaders who had to reorganize to keep the COG from Bankruptcy OUT!I could go on and on and on ad homimem since Troy seems to want to kick anyone he can out of the COG and Melvin wants to send them all to hell! |
| Marc Jackson |
Only after bro Melvin mentioned them I connected them to Link strange claims he is/was cog member Are you a cog member too??? I am not that familiar with the booklet |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day when did I ever make such a claim? I spent about a year attending COGs in high school bit I spent several years in the A/G. I was an ‘aktivis’ at a GBI in Indonesia for about a year and I have preached in GBIs. I never applied for membership in a US CoG (Cleveland). My story hasn’t changed. |
| Marc Jackson |
well any time you made it I countered that you are not cog or ag but some strange bird sort – you always got upset; now it turns its true our AG dont allow drinking either |
| Randal W Deese |
I hate fake holiness. When anyone adds rules to their faith as proof of purity that Scripture does not firmly teach, it is the opposite of true holiness. |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day So what? The Son of Man came eating and drinking. |
| Marc Jackson |
Randal Orthodoxy has plenty of rules on dressing 🙂 especially for the priests – how did you chose your gown colors ? Nothing Link – just that you are not Pentecostal that’s all I rest my case |
| Randal W Deese |
Troy Day but… The emphasis is quite different. Every church has rules, but extra rules to become holy…hmmm |
| Randal W Deese |
Troy Day I didn’t know Pentecostalism is defined by you? Please give me your definition of a true Pentecostal? |
| Marc Jackson |
The emphasis is always on holiness. Remember the guy who lived on top of a pillar ? |
| Randal W Deese |
Troy Day Ha ha ha ha |
| Randal W Deese |
Your point would be valid if every person was required to live on top of the pillar… If you think about these things a little deeper |
| Link Hudson |
Not familiar with the pillar analogy. Troy Day are you more concerned with preserving tradition or with the truth of the word of God.You can’t be holier than Jesus. |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day Not drinking doesn’t make someone weak in faith. If someone thinks all drinking of alcohol in sin, yes he is weak in faith in that area. Principles of conscience extended beyond issue of meat offered to idols. Corinthians is clear that is the weak conscience issue. In this passage, we have to guess. It could have had to do with kashrut or something else entirely.At least Christians who thought mystery meat from the market was unholy had some kind of Biblical or theological basis for their belief. Even the article you quote cites a verse reference that allows drinking, and tries to spin an article outright. ‘Not given to much wine’ implies drinking a little is allowed. Also, I read an article that pointed out the lack of scientific evidence that alcohol in the drinking water killed parasites. It seems reasonable, but I don’t know if there is any evidence for it, much less the idea that this was the reason they drank back then. There could be health benefits for the stomach other than antiseptic properties |
| Marc Jackson |
Link Hudson Does drinking wine, beer, stronger drink make one not a member of the Church of God? Melvin Harter |
| Link Hudson |
No, of course not. The members of ‘the church of God which is at Corinth’ had ‘real wine’ for what was supposed to be the Lord’s Supper. Paul doesn’t condemn that. He does comment on their drunkenness. |
| Link Hudson |
Wine had to be fully fermented to be kosher for Passover. They drank wine in Matthew 26. In Matthew 23, Jesus had said the scribes and Pharisees sat in Moses seat and to do what they ‘bid you observe.’ The Pharisees had them drinking wine that was completely fermented so all the yeast in the wine would die and they could slough it off the top. Grape juice could have yeast in it that hadn’t all died off yet, so it wasn’t kosher. |
| Marc Jackson |
Link Hudson Seems to me you are not even Church of God after all. It may do you well to do some research how the NT uses words about wine and drinking around Jesus. You will note quickly that NT writers use the words cup, fruit of the vine and so one. Jesus said This cup – no Gospel writer dared argue what was in it. The fruit of the vine means exactly that not a strong drink like ye suppose. Same goes for Acts 2, Timothy and so on. French Arrington explains it much better than I canBOTTOM LINE: People drink cause they want to drink (and use the Bible as an excuse) If you have a drinking addiction to the point that you need the Bible to justify it, you should look for professional help |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day Those who try to preach teetotalism just have made up doctrine without a leg to stand on Biblically. The reason the Bible can be an ‘excuse’ to drink is that there are plenty of examples of righteous people drinking wine, etc. and verses that indicate that it is allowed. There are warnings against excess. And like I said, I am a non-drinker with the exceptions (e.g. cough syrup, residue in shrimp scampi or Japanese noodles), though legalistic Pentecostals who don’t have any scripture to back up what they say often like to accuse those who do not agree of having a drinking problem or insinuate it.The Gospels do not explicitly say what was in the cup, but Jews drank cups of fully fermented wine for Passover. I thought you folks who have degrees in theology learned about all that history stuff. |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day I am part of the church of God in the Bible. As far as the Cleveland denomination goes, I didn’t say I am a part of that. Maybe you are getting us posters mixed up. I’ve attended regularly a couple of them in the past if you count GBIs in Indonesia. |
| Randal W Deese |
We use real wine in the Lords Supper as it has been done for 2000 years. |
| Link Hudson |
Luke 7:33-34For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ (ESV)Troy Day and Melvin Harter Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking. What was He drinking in this context? |
| Randal W Deese |
Grape juice argument began during abstinence movement. It is fraught with historical misinformation so as to justify it’s novelity in the history of His Church!! |
| Randal W Deese |
If I had time I would respond to every point Dr French has brought up. … In fact, I need to go… Blessings |
| Marc Jackson |
Randal Grape juice argument began during abstinence movement in America, you know? There are other countries in the world You really need to broaden your scope being orthodox and all |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day You are the one who holds to a position created in America that is pretty much unique to America and maybe a few places affected by American missionaries. Some Presbyterian missionaries to South Korea apparently taught teetotalism. Strangely enough, Yoido Full Gospel seemed to be serving ‘real wine’ for communion when I visited in the 1990’s. |
| Marc Jackson |
Link To be honest I am not surprised to learn that you are not Church of God like you’ve claimed Your amalgamation seems to be somewhat cultural but certainly not theological or practical |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day, I have been consistent with my claims. I have attended COG and GBI (Indonesian version of COG) in the past, and I haved preached in GBIs on occasion.Why do I get the sense that denominational affiliation seems to be more important to you than whether your ideas are Biblical? |
| Angel Ruiz |
Denominational affiliation is somewhat important maybe not as important as biblical theology but if affiliation someone stresses dissipate in the same Logistics of worship for example Church of God of the USA and Church of God in Mexico are culturally different but we still participate in the same logistical worship values |
| Marc Jackson |
Link What does your Church of God practical commitments say about drinking strong drinks and social drinking by members? |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day I’ve heard they are against it. If Jesus did not abide by a practical commitment, it should be called into question. |
| Angel Ruiz |
The same could be said about some of the teachings of the Apostles the apostles spoke on areas of what Jesus never spoke of this was to establish Unity we could say that some of the teachings of the Apostles could be practical commitments for the local church |
| Link Hudson |
Are you equating practical commitments ith the epistles. Why not just accept RCC traditions as binding? |
| Angel Ruiz |
Cuz Roman Catholic traditions are not found in Scripture |
| Link Hudson |
Angel Ruiz and that is an issue with the practical commitments too. |
| Angel Ruiz |
Yes they are… |
| Link Hudson |
Saying a Christian must abstain from all alcoholic beverages is not Biblical. Jesus told tge disciples to Drink ye all of it. Tea is a mood altering substance. |
| Marc Jackson |
cog holds it as a matter of membership, which you seem not to hold or if you do is in some strange way of social drinking |
| Link Hudson |
Jesus in 20 AD would not have met the qualifications for membership in the COG (Cleveland), would He? |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day I haven’t heard of such requirements around here. Alcohol is not as much a part of the culture, either. But it doesn’t effect me anyway. Btw, as I pointed out, I am not a ‘social drinker.’ Alcoholic beverages stink. I just don’t condemn people for drinking in moderation like Jesus did. I would drink communion wine if it were ‘real wine’ as opposed to grape juice. |
| Marc Jackson |
That makes sense for organization that is just amalgamated but not really part of larger denomination Good point |
| Link Hudson |
It was the largest national assembly in the denomination the last I heard. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
φαÏμακεία is pharmakia and translated withcraft in the new testament. Pharmakia means drugs and booze. I’ll often hear a man call it “self medicating.” This includes drinking and weed and dope. Things like this altar a man’s personality. Clouds his judgment, corrupts the morals of a man and pulls down his will. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,…” — Galatians 5:19,20Pharmakia is used again in Revelations”Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. — Revelation 9:12″But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” — Revelation 21:8 |
| Link Hudson |
Pharmakia means ‘drugs and booze’. That’s a pretty huge leap. It’s translated witchcraft. If it has something to do with potions, that doesn’t mean it refers to the drinking of wine, which is mentioned many times in the Bible. Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine. Was he telling him to engage in a little ‘pharmakia’? |
| Joseph D. Absher |
A little wine for his stomach is not going change his personality. But even a couple of beers can do that. Link Hudson |
| Link Hudson |
They used to mix wine down with water in ancient times. Shakespeare even mentions the practice. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
Yes I’ve heard. It’s in the Bible too. I think that would dilute it. Especially if it’s homemade wine. It would gardly be an alcoholic beverage at all. |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day On some level, you’ve got to realize it doesn’t make any sense to read teetotalerism into the Bible. Do you think the Pharisees accused Jesus of being a Welch’s grape juice bibber? |
| Link Hudson |
I hear the Jewish authorities allowed mixing Passover wine down to a certain ration. I think it was 5 to1 or 6 to 1. Children drank during the meals as well. |
| Marc Jackson |
The mix drink is just one of many theories out there that people use to justify their love for drinking. The Bible NO where even implies Jesus Himself drunk mixed drink |
| Link Hudson |
Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking.What other vines did Jews drink the fruit of. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
Do you really think this is over a glass of wine? It’s not even over the scriptures. It’s about men and their sin. People want their sin and so called liberty. Who has one glass of wine. Nobody I know. |
| Link Hudson |
Joseph D. Absher I was reading the other day that about half of American drinking-occasions lead to drunkenness while it is like 1 out of 10 for Europeans. It’s a cultural thing, maybe even something spurred on a bit by prohibition.I’m not into drinking wine or beer, but I am sure you can find people who might drink one craft beer with dinner or one glass of wine. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
That’s good blame the law. That’s a hot one |
| Link Hudson |
Joseph D. Absher The issue here is men making up doctrine. Melvin Harter even said social drinkers go to Hell. Men have no right to damn Christians God hasn’t damned. That’s false doctrine, and it goes against the teaching of scripture about judging, e.g. Romans 14. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
So if you’re for drinking it’s a crusade against judging? |
| Link Hudson |
Joseph D. Absher I’m against false doctrine and legalism. I grew up not drinking. I am not a ‘social drinker.’ I’ll drink cough medicine if I need it, and wine in communion if they use ‘real wine’ (which some Pentecostal churches do, btw, in Indonesia and South Korea). I’m not trying to get people to drink.But it is wrong for Pentecostals to look down their noses at believers who drink in moderation. And it is very wrong to condemn them to Hell for it. |
| Link Hudson |
I’m also a bit tired of tradition-generated stupidity. If someone says something stupid from the pulpit, don’t believe it just because it’s from the pulpit or because your papaw and your meemaw’s preacher used to say it. If it’s old timey preaching that doesn’t make it right.If you can open up the BIble and see the preacher contradicted the Bible, it’s wrong. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
So you’re promoting and defending drinking? “In moderation?” |
| Marc Jackson |
Great point bro Joseph D. Absher Was this the wine is mocker comment you had the other day? |
| Joseph D. Absher |
“Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” – Proverbs 20:1May God have mercy on us forgive us. So sad really. Jesus paid an awful price for our liberty and comfort and strength. I’m heartbroken. Brothers sleeping with women that ain’t there wife talking about “lust is such a hard problem” and ministers of Christ so-signing it.Then I hear talk about oh we had mighty move of God but there was no moral change at all. High feelings and maybe somebody got healed or got a little relief or a little blessing, but still loving the world drinking the devil’s cup. A devil for a deacon and pervert for leading the choir. No conviction in pew and no backbone in the pulpit.I don’t know if anybody used the pharmikia argument but drink changes you. The will is undermined. Conviction looses it morings. Sin gets easier and praying get harder. If want to be free you can be free. If you want victory over sin you can have it in Jesus name. If you will learn to draw your comfort and rest and sleep and peace from Christ you will have it in plenty. You can poor your southern comfort down the toilet and honey jack too. Then there will light in the land Goshen and not the darkness of Bacardi bats. Fellowship with the Lord Jesus Christ and tell that old devil “get behind me satan, for it is written thou shalt worship the Lord the God and him only shalt thou serve.” I’m not serving booze or lust or worry or the opinions of men I’m serving God by faith in Jesus Christ.We need to put the P of purity and “cost” back in Pentecost. Buy of me gold tried in the fire Jesus said. or go back to your vomit and wallowing in the mire. So sad people would rather argue the Bible than pray through to victory. God help us and have mercy on us. |
| Marc Jackson |
Thank you bro Joseph D. Absher The argument people are making to drink without getting intoxicating is NOT from the BIBLE It is liberally borrowed from the Clintons who spoke pot but did not inhale People drink because they want to drinknot because the Bible says they can drink wineIf you are delivered from it you dont mess with it no more [period]Drinking socially shows a deep social psychological disorderThe need to justify it with the Bible is fundamentally wrong theology |
| Randal W Deese |
Hahaha |
| Randal W Deese |
1. I use real wine in the Lord’s Supper because it’s an act of holiness |
| Randal W Deese |
2. I drink wine at home as a reminder of God’s blessing and fruitfulness. |
| Randal W Deese |
3. As one who was powerful he delivered from alcohol and drug abuse, the Lord has set me free from desire to get high either. |
| Randal W Deese |
And for the record, I drink alcohol with a dinner about one time in every three months. He who is free is free indeed. I have no desire to ever go back to my pre-conversion days of alcohol and drug abuse. |
| Marc Jackson |
You are so funny 🙂 |
| Randal W Deese |
Troy Day Thank you. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
What does it represent. Success, fellow ship, comfort, status, fun,Then consider the other uses in the Bible stubbornness, pride. The wrath of God. This might be the one case where I “spiritualize” the Bible. New wine is joy and gladness and cleansing. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
In court with a new believer. On a different case a young man was sentenced. Two years in prison. Unsuccessful in drug court. The charge was two overdoses in one day. Thats right he was revived and released and found dead a second time the same day. With heroin and needles. He O.D.’ed behind the wheel. People think overdose happens immediately. It doesn’t. Same with alcohol deaths. It takes time to work it’s way into the system. You can work with a man and they will get drunker even after they have stopped drinking. Sober minded means more than abstinence from drugs and alcohol. It be honest before God and not self deceived. |
| Marc Jackson |
Randal W Deese Joseph D. Absher IF I MAY cite David Lewayne Porter here just for my friend Dr. Melvin HarterDavid Lewayne Porter11 ago hrs · Harnett, NC, United States · “From a ministry friend:Alcohol-Related Deaths:An estimated 88,000 people (approximately 62,000 men and 26,000 women)die from alcohol-related causes annually in the United States.In 2014, alcohol-impaired driving fatalities accounted for 9,967 deaths (31 percent of overall driving fatalities).Economic Burden:In 2010, alcohol misuse cost the United States $249.0 billion.Three-quarters of the total cost of alcohol misuse is related to binge drinking.Why aren’t we dealing with this abomination?” [end OF quote]WE START with getting rid of ToT sipping dipping and tripping preachers FIRST in the church, so we can PREACH the pure Gospel of salvation and holiness without being made fun of by the world where drinking cigs and drugs are long discarded from the social normWe start in the church and establish NON-drinking standard of holiness there FIRST before consuming ourselves with stats from the world. Look at the Church first – the world will close their own bars and pubs when the Church is on Fire of Revival – it happened before in history you know Alan Smith http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/newspring-removes…/ |
| Randal W Deese |
That isn’t in the Bible..hmmmm |
| Marc Jackson |
drugs are not in the bible ? |
| Randal W Deese |
Troy Day Number of new syphilis cases: 74,702 (2015)Number of new chlamydia cases: 1,526,658 (2015)Number of new gonorrhea cases: 395,216 (2015)And what about all the deaths from the same…We should ban sex because someone might abuse it… Haha |
| Marc Jackson |
was the next thing I was gonna post for David |
| David Lewayne Porter |
The world will close it’s own bars and pubs….Quoting Troy Day.Is that why the wheat and tares grow together,That is why men will grow worse and worseThat is why there will be a GREAT falling away.Yes we will draw some, but don’t count on the world closing up all our even many of it’s pubs and bars (unless of course you pull a Smith Wigglesworth and personally get the owner saved). |
| David Lewayne Porter |
You guys are hilariousTroy Day Randal W Deese…Ban sex.Sex is not the issue. Using it contrary to God’s guidelines is the issue.So let’s discuss the other THINGS, items, and situations in which the item is not the issue, the over indulgence or use other than God intends is the actual issue. |
| Randal W Deese |
David Lewayne Porter You proved my point. Thank you |
| David Lewayne Porter |
If you think I proved your point you are truly lost Randal W Deese.There was no point.It is funny he Troy Day only posted part of the original post. As normal he twist things to fit his agenda. |
| Randal W Deese |
David Lewayne Porter Having alcohol is fine if used in accordance to GODs guidelines.Having sex is fine if it is done in accordance to GODs guidelines.Simple, logical and Scriptural.Both are allowed within perimeters. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Exactly |
| David Lewayne Porter |
So Randal W DeeseYour point was different from mine how? |
| Randal W Deese |
David Lewayne Porter I didn’t say yours was different |
| David Lewayne Porter |
It came across that way. Here is the entire post, including what Troy Day left out. …From a ministry friend:Alcohol-Related Deaths:An estimated 88,000 people (approximately 62,000 men and 26,000 women)die from alcohol-related causes annually in the United States. In 2014, alcohol-impaired driving fatalities accounted for 9,967 deaths (31 percent of overall driving fatalities).Economic Burden:In 2010, alcohol misuse cost the United States $249.0 billion.Three-quarters of the total cost of alcohol misuse is related to binge drinking.Why aren’t we dealing with this abomination?Shouldn’t the alcohol industry be held financially accountable and that money used to repair the damage being done instead of our tax dollars.- end from friend -….IMHO(And they are after certain style guns:Sad, sad indeed).Need we discuss abortion? |
| Link Hudson |
How many early deaths occur due to overeating? Does that make it a sin to eat food? |
| Marc Jackson |
David Lewayne Porter to respond to you misquoting me again:”Is that why the wheat and tares grow together,That is why men will grow worse and worseThat is why there will be a GREAT falling away.””The messages of Evan Roberts were simple and yet powerful, so much so that it was reported that even the bars (pubs) closed for lack of patrons. ” – just one of many examples. This WHY we should study church history – so we dont repeat it. The reason we have a falling away is namely because preachers drink and are scared to preach the holiness way because their drinking parishioners would not pay them – so much for holiness by the church clerk paycheck IF churches preach holiness way again bars will close down BTW if you believe the great falling away you should also believe in a last days great revival. But how do I explain something like that to a pessimistic eschatologian? AMEN Melvin Harter https://www.proclaimanddefend.org/…/evan-roberts-and…/ |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Troy DayIf you don’t think that you are able to explain anything to a pessimistic eschatologian Then why do you troll and tag them?When you can reconcile Spirit Filled Holy Ghost believers being demonized and acting out during services as they hold positions of authority within the ChurchThen maybe just maybe those pessimistic eschatologians will listen to you as an authoritative source. |
| Marc Jackson |
I dont think I am able to explain anything to a pessimistic eschatologian either. Are you one? Praise GOD anyhow Joseph D. Absher David Lewayne Porter and how do you reconcile Spirit Filled Holy Ghost believers drinking beer and strong drinks? |
| David Lewayne Porter |
So Troy DayYou believe that a great end time revival is going to close bars and pubs while they are going to be needed for the simultaneous falling away?Nice theology there.Yes, I see said the blind man.8) |
| Marc Jackson |
David Lewayne Porter What is the measure in your practical commitments against drinking preachers / members and preachers who condone social drinking? The exact measure pls |
| Link Hudson |
A Biblical tithe:Deuteronomy 14:26And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,Troy Day and Melvin Harter Do you think God was wrong? |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Now Link,Don’t confuse Troy. |
| Link Hudson |
The idea that tradition, including stuff preached from old timey pulpits, might not be Biblical can be confusing to some people. |
| Link Hudson |
If you insist that a man not drink wine to be holy shouldn’t you also insist that he grow his hair long? |
| Marc Jackson |
Sorry for not including you in my cog references Angel Ruiz whats your take on all this? |
| Joseph D. Absher |
Not to throw the discussion off but if I remember correctly the grand old methodist Mr. Wesley recommended some wine to his preachers. But the climate in jolly old England is rather damp. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
I have seen where Wesley was against alcohol use except for as prescribed by a physician. Yet and using alcohol as prescribed by a physician, it still shows the moderation of use. That’s why I stand the way I do. If someone says they’re a teetotaler, then they can’t use it anytime anyway in any form. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
I believe Wesley was referring to strong drink. Gin etc. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
The Johnathon Wesley foundation has some interesting reading on the subject. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
I have on fact read Wesley was a home brewer |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Sources please |
| Joseph D. Absher |
Leaving for early church. Later? |
| David Lewayne Porter |
I am almost at service now |
| Joseph D. Absher |
Yup and praying for focus lol |
| Link Hudson |
There is a sermon quote where he recommended beer I came across not too long ago. He was apparently against distilled liquor. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Source please |
| Marc Jackson |
Many preachers been sipping nyquil this flue season |
| Randal W Deese |
Oh no… They are sinning. Take their license… Ha ha ha ha ha ha |
| Marc Jackson |
now thats a proven fact http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/newspring-removes…/ |
| Randal W Deese |
Troy Day If the man is getting drunk on a regular basis… Of course… But you mentioned NyQuil |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Perry Noble had a larger issue than nyquil or medicine or for that matter flavorings.He had an issue, a youthful lust – with alcohol which was shown by a lack of moderation, as in he had no moderation. |
| Marc Jackson |
He has been reinstated in Clemson – probably because of the building project he started next to the campus and needed to supervise Do you know him personally? |
| Marc Jackson |
O HOLY GOD we, have come to a point wherepastors text and post on facebook during sermon hour while thousands are going to hell in a hand basket at the same time teachers be sipping a beer with friends on Saturday night and get up to teach Sunday school on Sunday morning still with alcohol on their breathseminary professors teaching it is OK to drink in the Bible during the so called Theology on Tap meetings in a local publonely pastors sitting in their cars shooting whiskey in the darkness of the church parking lot after preaching 2-3 services on Sundaypreachers are concerned with every social, political and cultural issues except the salvation of eternal human souls Alan Smith Melvin Harter |
| Link Hudson |
Preacher be eating and drinking with sinners while teaching them about the kungdom of heaven then be condemned by the Pharisees for doing so. |
| Marc Jackson |
cheap excuse |
| Link Hudson |
Your whole way of thinking about this is so alien to the way the apostles thought about it and what the Bible teaches.It’s kind of like this anti-beard Oneness preacher. Most of us don’t care one way or another about beards. Wearing a beard doesn’t make you any less holy. But because of this guy’s tradition for whatever reason, they must have some weird idea that not wearing a beard is more holy. He wrote,”When Apostolic Pentecostal Churches And Organizations Say It Is Ok To Wear Beards, The Question Soon Arises…Why?What do they hope to gain?Does that bring revival?Is this in anyway related to the same spirit of rebellion of the Hippies?What is the purpose?In some twisted way does the wearer feel it makes them more like Jesus? How?Isn’t pride part of it?”From: https://martynballestero.com/…/i-dont-like-facial-hair…/Isn’t that whole line of questioning just dumb? Why think there is anything wrong with beards in the first place? Some people interpret Isaiah to mean Jesus ahd a beard. |
| Marc Jackson |
beards? another cheap excuse when out of ammo ? attack the issue not the person – the issue is depressed preachers turn to whisky and substance abuse |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day I notice your tactic when someone demolishes one of your arguments– call their post a ‘cheap excuse.’ |
| Marc Jackson |
You are out of order. Speak to the issue please |
| Link Hudson |
Preachers shouldn’t get drunk. Neither should deacons or any other Christian. But Jesus instituted something that involved drinking alcohol in church. |
| Randal W Deese |
Link Hudson You are absolutely right link. Therefore, those who do not use alcoholic wine in the Lord supper are not following after holiness. They’re following after their own ideals. |
| Link Hudson |
Randal W Deese If they aren’t Jewish and it isn’t around Passover time, does it matter if the wine is kosher? |
| Randal W Deese |
Link Hudson The only thing that’s important to me as we follow scripture as best as we can without playing games with his word for our own personal agendas |
| Marc Jackson |
Nowhere JESUS said to use wine for the Supper. He literally said THIS CUP – go figure it out when you learn Greek |
| Randal W Deese |
Troy Day Perhaps you could go study the idiom of Hebrew called fruit of the vine… grape juice wasn’t introduced until recent history everybody understood what fruit of the vine meant… This novel Doctrine is sin |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day It says cup. It says fruit of the vine. But Jews drank wine at Passover–fully fermented to be kosher for Passover. And what ever the Corinthians were drinking could get an individual drunk if he drank it in excess. |
| Marc Jackson |
You know that for a fact from where? Not the Bible at all means There is no single verse in the NT saying Jesus drunk strong wine. Show me one? The only one you’ve been copy pasting is false accusation from his enemies which still does not imply he practiced social drinking as you imply. |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day Of John the Baptist we read,13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. (NKJV)What did John not drink?Luke 733 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ 35 But wisdom is justified by all her children.â€(NKJV)Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking. Do you disagree? The accusation implied excess, which was not true. |
| Marc Jackson |
It is plausible to suggest Jesus held the same standards as John the Baptist did They read from the same Scriptures in the same community => same standards |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day Nazarites were not allowed wine or strong drink.But strong drink was poured out as an offering before the Lord. He apparently didn’t think of it as some preachers do, as if it were dung in the camp. And Jews were allowed to use one of the tithes, if they lived far from the place the LORD chose, to buy food, wine, and strong drink to consume.So drinking wine and strong drink (some would say beer) is specifically allowed in the Bible, and nowhere was it forbidden.. except in special cases like those who took the Nazarite vow. They weren’t allowed to touch dead bodies. But someone has to or cities would get nasty really fast. |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day Jesus and John were different. John did not come eating or drinking, but the Son of Man came eating and drinking. |
| Marc Jackson |
So said his enemies only – no one else They did quote from the same OT manuscripts however which denotes their interpretation was not that much different. But again NO where the Bible says Jesus drunk wine. Dr. Arrington makes a great case for that – read it in the article and good luck |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking. HIs opponents took this and distorted it to call Him a winebibber. What beverage was discussed in that passage in Luke 7? |
| Link Hudson |
Jesus said that whatever the scribes and Pharisees ‘bid you observe, that observe and do.’ Why would He have had a beverage besides wine in the cup if that were the case? |
| Marc Jackson |
So do you do everything that the scribes and Pharisees ‘bid or just the social drinking. This is again a partial argument so easily excuse. You simple have no Biblical evidence for social drinking. That’s all |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day Come on. Be honest with yourself. Don’t you realize there is no reason to try to read back teetotalerism into the scriptures except for tradition– your church tradition for about 100 years or a little more has opposed all alcoholic beverages. But you can read the Bible too. You can see that drinking wine or beer (or strong drink) for tithes as allowed in the Old Testament, just like I can.Like me, you can’t find where wine was outlawed. Sure, there are warnings against it. Excess of wine is a dangerous thing. But it isn’t forbidden. There are also some positive statements about wine. It is given to make men’s heart’s merry. The Jews drank wine at Passover. It had to be fermented completely to be kosher, because the yeast had to die completely to be removed. Jesus drank ‘the fruit of the vine.’ You might insist one of the 12 sailed a boat to the Americas to get some tomato juice, or that some other fruit of the vine was in the cup. But you know that is ridiculous just as I do.I’m asking you to be honest with yourself. Depart from tradition for once when it just doesn’t make sense. |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day Kosher wine for Passover was one of the kosher issues the scribes and Pharisees dealt with. And it was a religous festival, not mere ‘social drinking.’ |
| Randal W Deese |
And I suppose one could argue that since a group of people were drinking a cup of wine, it was social |
| Marc Jackson |
Link You and I just examined your position. If you are to be honest you have to admit there is NO Bible for it. No reason to call me out personally as I dont call you out personally. You free to believe whatever but you and I both saw there is no Biblical evidence Jesus drunk wine. Keep on going to to other NT verses – you have Timothy using as medicine and you have the Corinth church rebuked for using real wine and getting drunk, whereas that should have never been the case – Paul’s stance on it. Then you have one instance of Jesus not drinking fruit of the vine until in Heaven and the whore from Revelation drinking a mix. That’s all – certainly not a consistent Biblical evidence for social drinking – dont you agree? And then the only one left is the first miracle – love to debate you on that one too 🙂 |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day You are clearly eisegeting about Corinth. If you conclude Paul wrote that because he was against their using wine, that is a ridiculous position to hold.It’s reasonable to take ‘the Son of Man came eating and drinking’ to refer to drinking wine in context. It is not reasonable to say there is NO evidence because that is evidence right there in Luke 7 and parallel passage(s) (I know there is at least one in Matthew). There is the cultural context– drinking wine at Passover. If ‘fruit of the vine’ is an idiom for oinos, that’s evidence. Apart from that, just form a historical perspective, the fact that He was drinking the fruit of the vine in a Passover seder is good evidence that the fruit came from grapes. It was during a time when yeast wasn’t allowed, which required that it be fully fermented. Jesus said to follow as the scribes and Pharisees bid. Their requirement for kosher wine is also a reasonable interpretation of the requirements for Passover if one is going to drink the fruit of the vine. |
| Marc Jackson |
ONLY passage you got left is John 2 but I doubt you wanna go there with social drinking |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day Do you mean the only passage left after mentioning a number of passages that show that drinking alcohol in moderation was not forbidden? I’m sure there are other passages.And you know John 2 indicates they served ‘real wine’ at weddings. |
| Link Hudson |
I wonder if that Oneness preacher is just convinced that Jesus did not have a beard, not because of the Bible, but because he saw so many clean-shaven faces in Oneness churches, and maybe even heard preaching against facial hair. The same feeling you probably get, Troy Day, if someone suggests that Jesus drank wine. |
| Randal W Deese |
Thank God for wine and Strong drink. May Believers return to the truth of the Bible instead of committing the anachronistic Fallacy with their novel doctrines of Pharisaic Legalism. Talk about a tradition of man! |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Not to sure about thanking God for strong drink,,,But I do agree with the rest of it. |
| Randal W Deese |
Maybe rejoicing with strong drink would have been a better way of saying it… *Smile*Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household… |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Yes I know the scriptures over strong drink in celebration.I also know the ones against it. |
| Marc Jackson |
Nowhere did JESUS say to use wine for the Supper. Literally NO WHERE He said THIS CUP is my blood |
| Randal W Deese |
The Hebraism fruit of the vine was always alcoholic beverage… Go study the older Hebrew language |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Troy DayHow were the Corinthians leaving the Lord’s table/supper “drunken”?Paul’s commission to them was against drunkenness as he offered moderation and restraint as well as reminding them it was God’s house, not their own. |
| Marc Jackson |
David Lewayne Porter Since you ask – how do you practice the Lord’s supper – do you give wine or juice? What has your denomination authorized you to give with the bread? – – – Exactly! I rest my case |
| David Lewayne Porter |
No Troy DayYou always divert.You accuse others of teaching man’s traditions and not having proper biblical understanding and follow through, soWhy were the Corinthians leaving drunken?How according to your BIBLE were they getting drunken?As Jesus said to his Pharisees,”You can’t answer me, then neither do I answer you”. |
| Marc Jackson |
No diversion. I ask you directly – do you practice what you preach? It is a simple test for hypocrisy Will you stand you in your church at Communion and serve strong wine? I would and I have. Dont divert from my question please – what do you serve during Communion? |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Troy Day,I asked first, I asked according to scripture.You diverted. You asked according to man’s teaching and traditions. Sad, sad indeed.I just wonder if you do it intentionally or if you truly don’t see it…… |
| Marc Jackson |
Why you call me a fraud? I havent called you any names? Arent you a fraud being licensed in a non-drinking denomination but you hold a Jesus-drunk theology David Lewayne Porter You should surrender your license |
| Randal W Deese |
Troy Day Certainly Jesus drank alcoholic drinks.Luk 7:33-34 NET. For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’ (34) The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him, a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’The Jews of His day took the fact that Jesus drank wine, to the extreme, in an attempt to paint Jesus in a poor light. I have no doubt that Jesus never got “drunk”, but from this verse it is obvious that He did drink alcohol beverages. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Troy DayYour biblical misunderstanding shows….Allow me,You mentioned strong wine…Biblically speaking.It is wine and then strong drink.Where did you biblically, not man’s traditions, get strong wine?Sad indeed |
| Marc Jackson |
I addressed this already Randal W Deese This is what his enemies said about Him. You got no case there |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Troy Day, when you can address the conversation that you left and refuse to address to where you claim spirit filled Holy Ghost believers can possess and manifest demon during church services,,,Then you may sit in a position to require someone else to abide by teaching or surrender credentials. |
| Marc Jackson |
David Lewayne Porter In your organization how does one report a minister who indulges in social drinking theology? How does the process work exactly? Would you please tell me I also ask bro Melvin Harter on this one Thank you so much for you answer |
| David Lewayne Porter |
And for the record I have used both.I have used Welch’sBUT DID YOU KNOW those little premade communion cups will FERMENT before their expiration date? And it is not just one church or service I have been in that used them while they had fermented.So Troy DayTake all their credentials. So back to you. …The Corinthians were leaving DRUNKEN! Your Bible says that in KJV and Greek.I rest my case. |
| Marc Jackson |
David Lewayne Porter Will you please answer my question: In your organization how does one report a minister who indulges in social drinking theology? How does the process work exactly? No answer? I rest my case |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Troy DayWhy, are you a credentialed CoG member wanting to do so? |
| Marc Jackson |
What is a credentialed member? I would like to know what the exact process is. Will you tell me please? |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Active member or credentialed minister, take your pick, I don’t believe you are either, I have never seen your name on the lists. … |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Gotta go, at work, until tonight…Troy Day that gives you time to answer my question biblically |
| Marc Jackson |
So you wouldnt tell me 🙂 Surely someone would know what the process is to be followed here Melvin Harter ? |
| Melvin Harter |
Bro Day, there have been several CoG ministers who were found to be drinking alcoholic beverages. Their ministries were totally revoked. Some years later, they were able to get their credentials back. Now those who engage into the social drinking theology? I can only officially state what it was some years ago. There were two specific questions on every CoG ministerial examination; namely, (1) are there any CoG Teachings that you disagree with? And (2) Do you agree with ALL the Teachings of the CoG and will you abide by each one of them? Of course, you must answer these questions correctly if you are to be granted ministerial license in the CoG. If you failed to correctly answer either of these two particular questions, then you were denied acceptance. |
| Randal W Deese |
Melvin Harter I’m glad I am not a part of humanistic legalistic denomination. Praise God!!! Jesus would lose His credentials! |
| Melvin Harter |
Bro Randal W Deese, I too am glad that I am not of a worldly church denomination. Praise God! Jesus would never be found there. |
RichardAnna Boyce
REAL Christians are under the perfect law of liberty. But REAL Christians should not drink ANY alcohol… in front of weak immature christians, such as those posting this, as they may be a stumbling block to them having the liberty we REAL Christians enjoy 🙂
Varnel Watson
there is no REAL and unreal ones There is only Christians The whole idea of the invisible church was created by catholics to pay penance The church is very much real and visible
RichardAnna Boyce
Troy sorry for my hyperbole 🙂
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Christiand DO DRINK ALCOHOL but not the children of God..
Makes a lot of sense isnt it?
Robert Erwine
well I don’t drink….
Varnel Watson
is the truth
Isara Mo
So do real.Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists..
Varnel Watson
YES
Isara Mo
Troy Day
There are murderers who dont touch alcohol , assasins who dont smoke, and even prostitues who dont sip wine…
A real Christian is the one who KNOWS their God not the ones who dont touch alcohol.
Spritual seekers know that alcohol corrupts the mind…so they avoid it so did the ancients. It is an old spritual discipline of the Easterners..so I dont give hi fives for any non drinking Christian…No credit at all.Nothimg to be proud of..
Those who know their God do great exploits not those who are teetotallers…
Thomas Henry Jr.
Not biblical—sounds like Palmerism to me
Isara Mo
Thomas Henry Jr.
Was not meant to be..
Internet” is a new word in our dictionaries…and is not Biblical too..
Thomas Henry Jr.
Isara Mo not sure what you mean
Isara Mo
Thomas Henry Jr.
Sorry Tom i misquoted you …I believe your above post was not directed to me .
I responded in haste.Apologies
Louise Cummings
I don’t believe they should. I think it’s wrong.
Varnel Watson
RT Rick Ferguson some people just love their sin so much that convince themselves it’s ok to stay in it
Varnel Watson
TRUE
Ken Van Horn
None of the Apostles required that believers take the vows of a Nazirite to receive Christ. So either they weren’t Christians or you aren’t teaching Christian doctrine.
Varnel Watson
many commanded the cult to Mary but do you believe that too?
Ken Van Horn
I have no objection if you or anyone else wants to forsake all alcohol or make yourself a Rechabite, but do not confuse your personal conviction or your personal mark of devotion to God with Christian doctrine and Scripture. I commend you for your devotion to God, but the touchstone is Christ, not alcohol.
Varnel Watson
Ken Van Horn SO you drink and get in the pulpit right after ? I dont get it Melvin Harter
Ken Van Horn
Troy Day I fast before I get in the pulpit.
Melvin Harter
A Christian does not drink intoxicating or alcoholic drinks. If they do so, they are not a Christian. Personal conviction has nothing to do with it.
Ken Van Horn
Melvin Harter You seem to confuse drunkenness with drinking alcohol. We are commanded to not be drunken; we are not commanded to not drink.
Now if you cannot drink without turning into a drunk, you absolutely should not drink alcohol.
Melvin Harter
Ken Van Horn Every drunkard always started with his first drink.
Ken Van Horn
Melvin Harter Every glutton begins with his first bite of food. Let your moderation be known to all men.
Melvin Harter
Ken Van Horn My Brother, there is; however, a major difference that must be pointed out. Everyone MUST eat to stay alive. But no one has to drink alcohol, or even take the first drink in order to live.
Melvin Harter
Ken Van Horn Really with your thought of moderation, it implies that SIN is okay, AS LONG AS IT IS IN MODERATION. Every true child of God knows that fact is not true. God will always judge sin, even small or little sins, as well as secret sins. I say, “Get out of the sinning business and really live for God as we should.”
Varnel Watson
Melvin Harter WHAT moderation Melvin Harter How can a drunk person moderate themselves Does the BIBLE say anything about adultery with moderation ? Says RUN…
Earl Jensen
real Christians use real wine every Divine Service. Jesus turned water into real wine.
Earl Jensen
my Grandfather hated distilled spirits “whiskey was the work of the devil only made to get people drunk” but beer and wine are natural food. No food should be consumed in excess.
Varnel Watson
Earl Jensen probably not far from the truth BUT would you listen to Ken Van Horn preach right after drinking? BTW beer is brewed not natural and wine is fermented
Earl Jensen
Troy Day would you join me in Georgetown, TX at the local brewery for the monthly pint with the Pastor? Third Saturday every month.
Varnel Watson
Earl Jensen absolutely NOT Alan Smith theology on tap has been long rejected in this group as the WORD demands our soberness. It is at such drunk meets where most heresies of our times were born Good luck with GOD
Earl Jensen
Troy Day First recorded miracle Jesus turned water into wine.
Varnel Watson
Earl Jensen you can make it happen if we come?
Ken Van Horn
Troy Day Do you know why most churches in America meet at 11 AM on Sunday morning?
Martin Luther was a night owl who loved his beer and he and other men of God would gather and discuss the Scriptures late into the night.
Eleven AM is as late as you can gather and still call it “Morning Mass.”
Varnel Watson
Ken Van Horn so you can turn water into wine?
Ken Van Horn
Troy Day Plant grapes, add water. Squeeze grapes into a cup and it will quickly turn to wine. So God regularly turns water into wine.
Men turn wine back into water. Drink the wine… go take a leak.
Louise Cummings
Amen to what stroud post said.
RichardAnna Boyce
REAL CHRISTIANS DO NOT DRINK ANY ALCOHOL in front of weak believers, if alcohol would be a stumbling block to those believers maturing in their Christian faith.
Ken Van Horn
RichardAnna Boyce What is the difference between a Baptist and a Methodist? The Methodists say hi to each other at the liquor store.
Ken Van Horn
Major on the majors and minor on the minors. Being a Christian is not about what we eat or drink and reducing it to that transforms you into something akin to judaizers.
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce you CANNOT expect non-ministers like Ken Van Horn and the other texan feller who started the brew-ha-ha to anticipate other people’s reaction Especially an AAA recovery who comes to church in looks for a working example Daniel J Hesse
Ken Van Horn
Troy Day This brouhaha was begun by you posting something so outlandish and unbiblical that I felt compelled to respond.
I have been a pastor for 29 years.
Now my weakness is that I rarely focus on the who. I focus on the what. But I would be emphatic in an AA group that each of them had already proven they had no moderation in this matter so they should avoid drinking alcohol or they endanger their souls.
Varnel Watson
Ken Van Horn Here is the truth of the matter
there is NOT a SINGLE verse in the whole NT condoning the us of alcohol Even Jesus said He would not drink the fruit of the grapevine until NEW in the KINGDOM
all your other arguments would be either OT, or cultural or some divination from the BIBLE
I have no trouble discussing ALL related NT scriptures with you on the topic IF you got the time BUT first I need to make sure you are sober and not drunk Because discussing Bible verses on drinking with a drunk person is about as good as discussing with a drug addict without recovery Joe Absher Melvin Harter know what I am talking about here
Joe Absher
If you wait until they’re clean sober you may preach their funeral but you’ve lost your first love and maybe door that God has or will open . but sure it’s a cute jibe .
Varnel Watson
Joe Absher we may have lost Ken Van Horn
David A Dawson
The Bible tells that Jesus drank wine. I believe he sip the wine. In another bible verse says ” drink a little wine for your stomach “. I have gave up alcohol because it was an addication.
Varnel Watson
The BIBLE ALSO tells us JESUS said Himself he shall NOT drink wine no more Shall we NOT do the same?
Varnel Watson
TRUE or FALSE Neil Steven Lawrence Larry Dale Steele Bible
Bible
Troy Day Noah is a drunkard.
Paul said wine is good for health.
But I don’t drink alcohol.
It’s up to you.
Jabememej Makby
We can drink little bits alcohol so alcohol can help us not getting sick Bible says something like that.i need help???
Nelson Rhyno
Jesus did twice
Rick Guido
Jesus did daily
Gerg Keyco
My God made the best wine for a wedding after the people had already gotten drunk on the cheaper stuff. The manager of the wedding told the bridegroom you usually serve the best first and then the cheaper wine after the guests are drunk. ???? And I’m sure jesus was drinking his own home brew…
Varnel Watson
and YOU can have that wine ONLY IF He does it again for you Has he done it yet? Then He dont want you to drink other strange wine and spirits lest you sin against Him
Gerg Keyco
Can you post the bible verses for that here please. Thx.
Imran FazaliIlahi
Gerg Keyco That’s wasn’t alcoholic
Gerg Keyco
Really? Then why does the manager at the wedding say the guests have drank too much? Can you drink too much grape juice? ?
Popeye Dasailorman
Gerg Keyco John chapter 2: 1-10
Terry Eldridge
Imran FazaliIlahi
Could you supply chapter and verse to verify that please?
Varnel Watson
Terry Eldridge Jn 2 does NOT say Jesus actually drunk
Terry Eldridge
Troy Day
Neither does it say that He didn’t.
Jesus’s first miracle according to John’s gospel was to turn water into wine. Correct? If He thought that to do so was inherently sinful don’t you think He would have refused His mother’s request to do so?
Grace Williams
What is REAL Christians?
Thomas Tom
Mark 7:19
Daniel Finlay
Jesus drank wine, also he is going to drink wine when he comes back.
Mike Cresswell
Do this is Remembrance of me … he took the wine … And the bible makes no definition of what a real Christian is… you are either born again or you are not
Jono Wolnizer
So you’re saying, if you drink alcohol, you’re not a real Christian aka not saved aka going to hell.. Judgemental nonsense.
Mike Cresswell
Jono Wolnizer mines a Guinness
Apollo Lopez Bautista
Wine has alcohol content. What the bible is implying is drunkards and drunkeness are immoral.
Garrett StClair
Apollo Lopez Bautista wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise
Proverbs 20:1
Apollo Lopez Bautista
Garrett StClair Proverbs 31:6-7 Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to him whose life is bitter.Let him drink and forget his poverty And remember his trouble no more.
Garrett StClair
Apollo Lopez Bautista Proverbs 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.23:33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.23:34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.23:35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
Garrett StClair
Notice how Proverbs also says don’t even look at alcoholic wine and it bites like a serpent. Are snake bites okay in moderation?
Apollo Lopez Bautista
Did that contradict the verse i stated? It said “give”. The issue is whether it’s wrong for Christians to drink wine. If it’s so, Jesus should have not turned the water into wine. I believe, we are warned not to be enslaved with wines like drunkards. Or if drinking wine would stumble us or others then we must not drink it. Btw, i drink wine or beer but i was never been drunk coz i don’t drink much. But if it’ll no longer be beneficial to my body or if it makes me ill, then i have to stop it.
Mike Cresswell
Apollo Lopez Bautista yeah but there is a difference between a glass of wine, drinking a bottle of wine everyday and having a brawl … all teaching must be balance … 2 sugars and a brandy in my tea please
Apollo Lopez Bautista
Cheers!
Henry Smith
Cringe. Totally unsupported by the Bible, totally unsupported by church history.
Varnel Watson
drinking of spirits or what?
John Bautista
Wrong theology
Donna Holbrook
Who made you God?
Geoff van Zandwijk
Drunkenness is a sin. But lets say drinking alcohol is too. Does this mean that the blood of Jesus Christ is not strong enough to conquer that particular sin? Either sin? Any sin?
Yehoshua Marion
Marriage supper of the lamb has alcohol. Jesus drank wine enough to be accused of being a wine bibber.
Brandon Fertig
Yiiiiiikes. In other words, “Jesus’ first miracle was a trap! He was trying to get everyone at the wedding to sin!”
Great theology ?
Ralph T. A. Ranger
I’m southern baptist and even I disagree with this ??? all things in moderation. Drink what you want.
Michael Spicer
Ralph T. A. Ranger your wrong
Ralph T. A. Ranger
Michael Spicer I am not souther Baptist??? I appreciate YOU letting ME know MY denomination.
Michael Spicer
Ralph T. A. Ranger tour an idiot
Ralph T. A. Ranger
Michael Spicer why would I want to go take a “tour” of you [idiot]?
Also since you want to point out my faults. I know you made a typo and meant to say “your” and not “tour”, like you did in your first reply. However, before calling people names of intellectual inferiority, check yourself first. It is not “your” what you mean to type is “you’re”.
Also feel free to call me names if that makes you feel better, I don’t mind. I forgive you and hope you have a blessed day. ?
Michael Spicer
Ralph T. A. Ranger wow. Ur a atheist loser. I understand now.
U need ur diaper changed
Ralph T. A. Ranger
Michael Spicer like I said feel free to call me names.
I can tell you are angry at the world and looking for a fight.
I pray you you find the love in Christ. He does love you. And it is ok not to be angry. If you need someone to talk to feel free to DM me.
“For I am the Lord your God who takes hold of your right hand and says to you, Do not fear; I will help you.”
Isaiah 41:13 NIV
And while I am not an atheist, I don’t think any atheist are losers. They like me are still loved by God.
David Buyna
I don’t drink but drinking is not the sin in itself it is becoming drunk, so if you can do one with out the other more power to you. But if you do become drunk it is a gateway to greater sin.
Daz Gordon
Ok so that would mean that the Apostle Paul was not a real Christian nor Timothy ,
1 Timothy 5 v 23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.
Hingano Kaitu'u
really?
Daz Gordon
Hingano Kaitu’u well if real Christians do not drink any alcohol how could the Apostle Paul be a real Christian when he compelled Timothy to use alcohol for his stomachs sake ? And Timothy as an obedient servant of the Lord would have obeyed and done as Paul had said , so it’s clear that Christians in the right circumstances and for the right purposes are at liberty to use and enjoy alcohol .
Hingano Kaitu'u
So right circumstance and right purposes is different from drink?
Daz Gordon
Hingano Kaitu’u no
Daz Gordon
Different from drunkenness .
Hingano Kaitu'u
Daz Gordon got it
John Berresford
Rubbish statement
Shawn Croom
Lies ?
Rick Guido
The real Christ Made wine
David Cartland
Really great John MacArthur teaching on this where he looks historically at what the biblical ‘wine’ was a very different product produced for very different end goal. Rather than today’s mass produced high strength intoxicating drinks. Btw I like a beverage myself but was an eye opening sermon
David Cartland
https://youtu.be/thXe-rtpl6U
Peggy Kalivoda
Jesus drank wine…
Lukas Dohnal
How do you that ? In fact there is a Bible verse where Paul apostle recommends to drink little bit of wine. Please allow me to tell you my friend “real Christians know what is real from the Bible, not by conclusions and superstitions as you showed here”
Melissa Keoprasa
Father, forgive me for getting tipsy.
Stu Nichols
Well that’s Jesus excluded from your religion then.
Grape juice begins to ferment within days of its extraction, to say Jesus’s wine wasn’t alcoholic is ridiculously ignorant.
Damien Lacks
Stu Nichols You kind of contradict yourself with you own statement.
If it ferments within days…
Then how was it fermented if he turned it into wine in the present moment?
Stu Nichols
Damien Lacks no contradiction in my statement that I can see.
Your assuming Jesus needed to use the fermentation process in order to create wine.
I think He has the power to circumvent physical laws and just make it wine from water supernaturally.
Damien Lacks
Stu Nichols Again, on the contrary your assuming Jesus chose to circumvent physical laws and induce fermentation and alcohol into the wine.
Even though that is completely contradictory to His nature.
If he made 6 giant barrels of wine infused with alcohol then you are suggesting that he Is promoting indecency and drunkenness and debauchery. Which he does not.
Jack Parks
Damien Lacks did he not already circumvent natural laws by changing the water in the first place? Let’s try to be consistent here.
Damien Lacks
Jack Parks Be consistent in the Word of God.
Show me where God condones alcohol in the scriptures?
Damien Lacks
Jack Parks I bet you cant show me once where God says have a party and get drunk?
Damien Lacks
Jack Parks Wine does not mean Alcohol.
Wine means fruit of the vine.
Alcohol is strong drink.
Fermented wine was always forbidden.
Jack Parks
Damien Lacks
Luke 7:34 (ESV): The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
Who is the Son of Man, and what is he drinking that would cause the Pharisees to call him a drunkard?
Damien Lacks
Jack Parks “Eating and drinking”
Where does that say He condone getting drunk?
Jack Parks
Damien Lacks did I say he condones getting drunk?
Jack Parks
Damien Lacks the text is a clear indicator that he is drinking something that contains alcohol, otherwise the Pharisees wouldn’t be calling him a drunkard.
Jack Parks
If it is not alcoholic, then why would they be calling him a drunkard?
Damien Lacks
Jack Parks Not on the original Greek. It indicates that they said He was one who drank too much wine. In contrast to John who ate only locust and honey.
The Pharisees were looking to discredit Him. As you are also now.
Damien Lacks
Jack Parks The text makes not mention of alcoholic wine. You can insert it if you want to. That’s on you. Not me. I’m going to believe Him.
Jack Parks
Damien Lacks what’s wrong with drinking too much wine if it’s not alcoholic? You’re jumping through some pretty big hoops just to end up back in the same place.
Damien Lacks
Jack Parks Huh? So your saying that Jesus walked around drunk off of alcoholic wine? Are you serious?
Jack Parks
Damien Lacks no, I’m saying he drank alcoholic wine and the Pharisees accused him of drunkenness simply because he drank, period. As you seem to be doing. One doesn’t get drunk from a single sip, dude
Jack Parks
And look up the definition for “winebibber” while you’re at it. That’s not someone who likes grape juice.
Damien Lacks
Jack Parks No they accused Him of drinking to much wine which makes the heart merry.
Fruit does that. Fruit juice makes the heart merry just fine.
The same thing goes for gluttonous?
They were saying He was gluttons just because He ate.
It doesn’t mean he ate unclean food.
Glenn Luistro Malabo
Stu Nichols Amen
Jack Parks
Damien Lacks do your calves hurt from all that jumping? This is what happens when people turn to scripture to justify what they already believe. Nobody gets giddy over grape juice. I noticed you skipped over the “wine bibber” definition. It’s someone who drinks alcohol habitually. The Pharisees were calling him that because they didn’t like that he drank alcohol. Just like you are doing.
Winebibber is what they called drunks in the 1600s when the KJV was translated. As the English language has morphed over time, a different word has come to replace it. It’s the same meaning though. The Pharisees called him a drunkard, and there would be no reason to do that if he wasn’t drinking alcohol.
Jack Parks
As for Jesus eating unclean food, there’s no reason why he couldn’t have. He said himself “it is not that which enters the mouth that defiles a man.”
But if he was eating unclean food they wouldn’t have called him a glutton. They would’ve called him something else. That’s why you need to READ. THE. TEXT. without trying to project your own beliefs upon it. The Bible nowhere condemns moderate drinking. In fact praise is given to God for alcohol. Like all things it can be abused, and that is forbidden. But even Jesus himself drank, and if you choose to say that’s a sin then you out yourself in the same position as the Pharisees.
Damien Lacks
Jack Parks I’m sorry, where is Praise given to God for alcohol?
Jack Parks
Damien Lacks and that’s beside the point that you initially tried to make that the all powerful God, the very person of the Trinity who created the entire universe with simply by speaking it into existence, who was already circumventing natural law by changing the water in the first place, couldn’t somehow get past the fermentation process because that apparently had to happen.
Damien Lacks
Jack Parks It wasnt alcohol. I drank wine sometime. And I dont get drunk..
But to say that God is praised for alcoholic wine is conokekty antithetical to all of scriptures.
Bobby Jones
The Pharisees would approve
Nagbandjoa Kombate
Bobby Jones Thank you. If the poster knows the bible, not his denomination belief, he wouldn’t say something like that.
Billy Jay Simpson
This is Pharisee style nonsense
Jack Johnston
Another believer obsessing what to do and not to do.
Jack Johnston
Bartender: Jesus, I’m afraid I’m going to have to cut you off. From now on you are only getting water.
Jesus: That’s okay, I can work with water.
Wendy Domino
Jesus disagreed
Steve Bagnall
Jesus literally turned water into wine. You could actually argue that to be a true follower of Christ, you SHOULD drink alcohol!
Alcohol isn’t the sin. Drunkenness is. Gluttony is sinful. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t eat food
Gian Lisi
In moderation a glass or two of vino numero uno..
Shaun Dukes
Read Timothy. Paul suggests it with wine.
Grace Williams
Paul told Timothy to drink alcohol for pleasure , did he?
Jereme McAlpin
That’s news to Jesus.
Edgardo Salcon Gavino
Yes, if it is bad to his health. And also if he doesn’t want to get burn within.
Sydrick Munar Dimailig
1 Timothy 5:23
[23]No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.
Tim Schmidt
Good ! I wish everyone is going to follow!!
Mikhail Kelbatyrov
Wine in those days is not the same as today. “New wine” is unfermented wine. New wine was grape juice. Or the juice of other fruit. The reason you don’t put new wine into old wine skins… old wine was fermented and had alcohol. Alcohol breaks down leather. Makes it brittle.
Of course there were those who still drank fermented wine to get drunk/buzzed/high. If a Christian says it’s ok to get a little high from alcohol than there is no reason to hold back from opiates, cannabis, tobacco, or any other mind altering substance.
Then comes into conversation, communion. Unleavened.
Fermented wine is leavened wine. So those who take communion with fermented wine are not doing it correctly, according to scripture.
Jimmie Roberts Bornagain
Mikhail Kelbatyrov hey hey amen well spoken amen my heart leaped in joy for this
Nagbandjoa Kombate
Mikhail Kelbatyrov No. It not true. There was alcohool in the wine. That is why the bible talk about drunkness.
Mikhail Kelbatyrov
Nagbandjoa Kombate yes. Old wine. There were no refrigerators. They did have fermented wine. It was not the strength of today and one would have to drink very much wine to get drunk. Being high from wine at any level was intentional. It made one a glutton to consume so much juice for a little buzz.
Eleazar Jaring
Mikhail Kelbatyrov old wine or new still it can get us drunk like as what happened to Lot neither Noah. The bible commanded us not to linger to too much wine nor become drunkard but never teach us not to drink little wine for health. Jesus was been accused of being drunkard because He goes and drink with the drunkard. Take note of that, Jesus drink also wine and even made wine in his mother’s request. So please so not exaggerate, add or lessen the scriptures, that makes you a false prophet.
1Tim 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.
Tim 5:23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
Henry Lainez
Mikhail Kelbatyrov not true brother. When the Lord converted water into wine, it was better than the wine it was being served before, and that wine had alcohol, that’s why the master of the feast told the bridegroom that this better wine should’ve been served first and once they were drunk then the poor wine was to be given. Meaning that the wine the Lord Jesus had created had alcohol and could get you drunk.
Mikhail Kelbatyrov
Not at all adding or taking away. This is from history. Wine in those days was different than today. Jesus did not get drunk. When he turned water into wine, it wasn’t alcoholic. It was sweet and fresh. He was accused of being a drunkard because he was with drunkards. It doesn’t mean he drank. Noah got drunk and God told him not to do so again. To get drunk from wine in those days requires one to be a glutton. You had to drink a lot to be drunk. Of course there were those who intentionally made alcoholic wine. But most wine was juice and as it aged it became fermented. Like kombucha or Kvas. Most cultures(no pun intended) have fermented foods and drinks. These foods and drinks have nowhere near the alcohol content of intentional alcoholic drinks. The drink t for health portion is regarding the probiotics of a fermented drink. Which is very good for gut health. No benefit what so ever in mind altering substances such as alcohol other than sanitizing
Mikhail Kelbatyrov
Henry Lainez better wine doesn’t mean it had more alcohol. It was new wine. Sweet and fresh. It may have had probiotics in it as lofty fermented food and drinks do. To get drunk off the wine from back then you had to drink a lot. Which they did at that feast.
Henry Lainez
It could be, but understand that you can drink 20 gallons of grape juice and you won’t get drunk. You don’t have to defend the undefensable brother. Don’t let your idea into the Bible, let the Bible give you the teaching. The natural reading is that grape juice can’t get you drunk. Even today’s Israel wine is famous and has alcohol. I’m not saying that being drunk is ok. I’m saying that the Lord himself drank wine with alcohol and that’s why he was called a drunk. We don’t have to pretend that we’re more Holy than him. Again, you don’t have to defend an idea just because you have to defend it. Let the Bible follow the natural course of the narrative.
Bradley Craig Naidoo
Mikhail Kelbatyrov Matt 9:17 makes no mention of “old wine”..
In fact it states that NEW wine in OLD wineskins would break the wineskin… By your reasoning then, if the wineskin is destroyed by the alcohol content, then the new wine is alcoholic… See your error ??
In fact : Old wineskins are brittle and de-hydrated, and any wine (or even water) poured into it would wold cause it to break, due to the weight and sudden re-hydration…
New wine into new wineskins… no mention of “old” wine..
It’s fine to choose to not consume alcohol. I respect that.
But please do not attempt to manipulate scripture to fit your belief…
BTW – I pray that you have a teachable spirit, and accept some form of “correction” from us, your Brothers in Christ.
Iswenene Ingavi
Henry Lainez Hey where does it say the people got drunk in that wedding feast?
Henry Lainez
Iswenene Ingavi it doesn’t and I’m not saying they were. But When the master of the feast says that the good wine the Lord had created should’ve been served first and once the people were drunk the poor one, the natural meaning and reading is that the good wine had the capability of get you drunk. Meaning it was fermented and had alcohol. That’s all I’m saying and that’s the narrative of that passage.
Iswenene Ingavi
Henry Lainez I get your drift. The good wine,generally is supposed to get people drunk.However we cannot confidently conclude that while the wine Jesus made was good, it had the potential to cause drunkenness
Henry Lainez
Iswenene Ingavi I think we can conclude that it should get you drunk, because that’s exactly what the master of the feast was saying. Once the good wine got the people drunk then the poor wine was to be served. Meaning he knew that the good wine had the capability of get you drunk. Otherwise the whole narrative he was saying is meaningless.
Mikhail Kelbatyrov
Henry Lainez now hint here that says anything about being drunk…only have drunk.
John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Oliver Avery
Be sober minded, and do not be given to much drink, I have read…, but I haven’t read anywhere in the Bible that it says to not drink alcohol.
Nagbandjoa Kombate
Oliver Avery . Yes. Those who say that taking alcohool is sin, can they prouve it with scripture?
Oliver Avery
Having said that I DO believe that’s ok to consume alcohol in moderation…,
I also know what God says about my attitude about my privilege in Romans 14:13-23.
I don’t want to cause any brother in Christ to stumble.
Oliver Avery
Nagbandjoa Kombate
I don’t think so.
Grace Williams
What are REAL Christians, Troy Day?
Delissa Fry
Grace Williams those are the “rule” keepers ?
Shaun Dukes
Grace Williams 1 Timothy 5:22 suggests for your stomach and infirmities. Even celebrating like at a wedding needs to be in conscious moderation. If you know you are prone to alcoholism and drunkenness then you should not drink to avoid the temptation. Otherwise drinking every day for pleasure describes a functioning alcoholic. God gave us everything in this world to enjoy, but He also gives us purpose and boundaries for everything. When we misuse God’s resources, it hurts us. We don’t need to be legalistic about alcohol, we just need to funnel all of our choices through God and submit to His word and commandments.
Grace Williams
Shaun Dukes I’m asking his definition of Real Christian. I don’t drink any alcohol, I have no desire to, no reason to, or wish to. My father was a violent alcoholic who threatened to kill me, my sis, my mother, every week. I can have a pleasant time with friends without alcohol. But that is not the point. I don’t drink alcohol, so that makes me a REAL Christian, does it? of course it doesn’t.
Shaun Dukes
Grace Williams I’ve very sorry for the experience with alcoholism in your family. I know that must have been hard. I’m glad God brought you through that and strengthen you as the Christian you are today. I truly admire you.
David Allan Deik
Based on scripture, it’s false
David Allan Deik
Jesus turned water into wine. End of discussion.
Steven Chakarovski
That’s a hard sell
Delissa Fry
Once again misguided info. Not what bible says.
Delissa Fry
I’d like to remind us that anytime you are in an “extreme”about thinking , you are not in balance . God is always found in the Balance . ( Bible says to be well-balanced. The devils playground is in the extremes in life and thinking.
Joseph Geranio
Most not all Pentecostals have this conviction
Dave Gillespie
Isn’t Jesus enough?
Barry Beutell
The Bible condemns drunkenness, not all alcohol.
Abstaining from drinking alcohol is a fine if that helps someone who has a problem with moderation, but an occasional drink is not a sin.
Anthony Sanchez
Never the baby in faith should.know that im getting it.
Ariel Pedrosa
Then Jesus is not a true Christian ???! He filled the jar of wine during the wedding in canaan. By the way, does your church required you to drink the wine during communion? I hope not. ???
Cody Ashton Hitchen
Let me ask this. If you drink a beer or have a glass of wine with your wife and neither of you is prone to violence or sexual indecently when after a glass or two, where is this condemnation of “you can’t be a real Christian then”
For sure there is much evil that can be done by people who under the influence are more prone to but others not so. Shouldn’t this be a matter of Christian freedoms? Do it responsibly and privately and don’t do it in a manner that would cause a brother to stubble?
Bernard Holland
You probably should study more
Travis Smith
So if a little drinking is ok, how about a little weed smoking too?
Travis Huonder
?
Bradley Craig Naidoo
How Muslim of you…
Islam much ?
John Cordaro
Torah permits wine and strong drink at certain times, but forbids drunkenness. The Tanakh warns against drinking wine or strong drink. Paul told Timothy to drink wine for a stomach ailment.
There is no specific command that says, Thou shalt totally abstain from alcohol. I, personally, do not drink alcohol. That is how all drunkards began. I lost several brothers in the faith to alcohol. It is totally unwise, especially to drink it in front of your children. However, it is NOT forbidden.
Bradley Craig Naidoo
ANY Alcohol !!?? So no cough elixirs.. and other medications too ? No Tiramisu or Fruit Cake ? No flambed Filet Mignon. . ?
Eugene Joyner
Legalism
Varnel Watson
I am YET to see actual theological argument in this discussion Any one got any theology proper on this?
Muhumuza Herman Ngyendo
Troy Day me too… want to hear from an informed point of view
Bradley Craig Naidoo
Difficult to have a theological discussion on something not based on theology…
Jeff Lewis
Hard to prove a negative. I think the burden would rely on you to support with scripture.
Grace Williams
What ARE REAL CHRISTIANS, Troy Day?
Grace Williams
So you are saying that those who drink alcohol are NOT saved? If real Christians are those who do not drink alcohol, those who do, are fake convert, are they, Troy Day?
George William Tyler
Troy Day would they have called Jesus a wine bibber if he did not have wine?
Duane Minchin
Troy Day i said its true, therefore its true..
Vincent D Edwards
https://youtu.be/MRpA4njHF64
Better video on the subject
Jay Zeke Malakai
Vincent D Edwards beat me to it ?
Vincent D Edwards
Jay Zeke Malakai ??
Nick Sklar
Jesus and Mary both drank wine at the wedding at Cana, the site of the Lord’s first miracle. Jesus said there is wine in heaven too. Why shouldn’t Christians drink wine if there is wine in heaven?
Kevin Jones
Troy of all the mountains you want to stand on, this should not be one of them. Try to stand on a mountain that seeks to win the hearts and minds of people for Christ, not create controversy on issues.
Emanuel Mullen
Christians have responsibility to regulate all of our behavior in every area of life according to the law of love. So drinking should be handled with prayer and careful consideration. The question we should ask ourselves isn’t what may or may not be permissible- that’s a self-centered approach. Instead, we should ask how our choices might impact other people.
Jacob Weaver
Real Christians don’t drink alcohol. That’s why Jesus drank wine. (sarcasm) ?♂️ Check your facts before you jump to conclusions. There is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol. The only problem is when it leads to drunkenness and addiction.
Nathan Miller
Colossians 2:16, and the context of drinking wine can be applied from ancient times here
Rodney Horton
To the ones commenting about Jesus and wine;
For wine to get you drunk it has to be fermented.
Why would a Jew, that only eats unlevened bread because the yeast corrupts(ferments) just like sin corrupts the soul?
Jeremy Blatchford
Rodney Horton The jews only ate unleavened bread at the Passover. It wasn’t a year-round thing
Oliver Avery
Everyone here needs to see what God has to say about our debate.
Romans 14:13-23
Jeff Sutherland
Were the disciples followers of Christ. John 2.
David Toliver
From Pentecostal theology, eh? REAL Christians must also roll around on the floor and yell gibberish then ??♂️
David Heizer
It is this kind of ridiculous commentary that hurts Christianity A real Christian believes the gospels and loves god and others. Alcohol has nothing to do with it
Kent Wilkens
A fairly thorough look at wine in the bible I did a few decades ago.
http://www.thyword.ca/alcohol.html
Brad Dillon
Ohhhhhhhh my SMH!
Drew Parish
Absolutely absurd
Edward Peggy Davidson
What about cigarettes?
What if you got addicted before being saved struggling to quit
Herb Van Schoick
A great teaching to exclude most of us from the kingdom. Only the strict legalistic believer will be saved? Sounds like holiness doctrine.
Ralph Dumagpi
Really
Jennifer A Epps
Gluttony is a sin, therefore eating is a sin…. wait…
Herb Van Schoick
Many churches serve wine for communion, I bet they don’t realize they are disqualifying their members from heaven.
Kevin Davenport
No true Scotsman fallacy ?
Ronald Burns
So are we saying Timothy and Paul were not real Christians.
Kirk Bohn
Wrong
Brian Patterson
Yeah ok…thanks for your opinion
Tony Chan
Jesus did.
Tyler Fuss
If it causes someone to stumble, then it is problematic. Otherwise, social drinking is fine, except for getting intoxicated.
Tim Spangler
OP is false claim (I had half a glass of ice wine last night..)
Linda Rosa-Torres
Real Christians don’t get drunk and slap their spouse.
Nikki Summers
Linda Rosa-Torres ??
Lawrence Solomon
Well said Linda
Jeff Finster
Wow… really? I am Christian by the seed of Abraham. By natural descent a German living in Iowa. No Busch Light = Heresy to me ?.
The Kingdom is not a matter of meat and drink.
It’s not what goes in… it’s what comes out.
Blessed is the man who doesn’t condemn himself by what he does.
Concerning these trivial things, you have your house… I have mine. ?
Andrew John Laatz
Was Noah a “christian”?
Grace Williams
I’m waiting for you to show me from the Bible that Christians who drink alcohol are NOT REAL Christians. Many thanks Troy Day
John Watson
Grace Williams he can’t, it’s shameless legalism.
Grace Williams
John Watson Oh he will, watch this space. He’s already gloated about being at the church as if that’s something he should be proud of, LOL
John Watson
Grace then he’s just as blind as the unbelievers. You don’t get to add to the Word of God.
Grace Williams
John Watson People who posts stuff like this tend to have a very low self esteem and loves to shoot other people down to their level, so that they feel good about themselves.
John Watson
Grace Williams the blind leading the blind.
Grace Williams
It’s sad, really.
Randall Grosvenor
Oh really? Come on Troy. Seriously?
Moody Allen
Soo… Jesus ain’t a Christian?
Billy Myers
The word wine in ancient Greek meant anything that came from a grape, including grape jelly, grape juice, fermented wine and anything else. Jesus always said don’t drink the wine once it ferments. So the “wine” Jesus drank was grape juice.
Moody Allen
Billy Myers didn’t Jesus helped distribute wine? And what about Noah?
Billy Myers
Moody Allen as I said wine meant anything produced from a grape. No way to tell which one it was except in context. Very likely could have been grape juice. So I can’t say for sure.
Billy Myers
Moody Allen And Noah couldn’t have been a Christian they weren’t around until hundreds of years later.
Billy Myers
Moody Allen P.S. I’m a Christian and I drink alcohol.
Billy Myers
Moody Allen Although in that story one of the party members does remark that usually they save the good wine for last but this time they served the good wine first. So maybe it was fermented.
Moody Allen
Billy Myers what verse did Jesus say not to drink fermented wine? And didn’t Paul advocate for drinking but said it had to be taken in moderation?
Shane Mccall
The verse that says don’t be drunk with wine in ephesians is the same Greek word where Jesus made water to wine…
Proving that the wine Jesus made could get you drunk. You can drink and not get drunk.
Andrew Pieper
So you’re saying it definitely could have been fermented but because it might not have been then its wrong…?
Billy Myers
Andrew Pieper no I’m just putting that out there. like I said I drink alcohol. I’m just saying anytime you see the English word wine in the Bible it could be any number of things because Ancient Greek didn’t have separate words for them. That’s all.
Billy Myers
Moody Allen I’m trying to find the verse. I’ve heard it quoted many times, but i am REALLY bad remembering Bible verses.
Moody Allen
Billy Myers and wait. Jesus was around Roman times. Fermented drinks were way in even before that… And were even more prevalent in Roman times…
Moody Allen
Billy Myers ok
Billy Myers
Moody Allen And actually I think the verse is in the Old Testament not something Jesus said.
Jack Parks
Billy Myers but the science wasn’t actually around for there to be anything other than wine. The only reason we have grape juice today is because of pasteurization which was in the past two centuries. Jelly wasn’t invented until the mid 1800s, and jam, while it was invented in the 1st century, is certainly not the “fruit of the vine” that everyone was drinking at the last supper. The reason there was one word for it is because that’s all there was.
Billy Myers
Moody Allen Oh fermented wine had been around for a long time. If you take the partygoer’s statement about it being good wine it very well could have been fermented. It also may have been just grape juice. Not really a big deal to me either way. I have far greater sins to worry about.
Billy Myers
Jack Parks people did drink it. It just didn’t last very well. Are you telling me people didn’t drink milk before pasteurization?
Billy Myers
By the way this whole argument to me is pretty silly. I don’t think anyone condemns them to hell by taking drink. If so I’m in real trouble.
Moody Allen
Billy Myers oh well. It’s just disappointing cause’ you sounded so sure.
Billy Myers
Moody Allen so sure of what?
Moody Allen
Billy Myers of what you were talking about. But hey we can’t all get it right, right?
Billy Myers
Moody Allen all I am sure of is that the Greek word for wine means many different things.
Moody Allen
Billy Myers It’s kinda of a far stretch to take then.
Billy Myers
Moody Allen I probably should have worded it differently, like could have been juice. I’m not a very eloquent man.
Moody Allen
Billy Myers it is healthy to be self aware.
Jack Parks
Luke 7:34 (ESV): The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
Who is the Son of Man, and what is he drinking that would cause the Pharisees to call him a drunkard?
JJ Slone
Jack Parks one of my favorite verses.
Sami Ungureanu
JJ Slone i can name a problem If that is one of your favorite,?
JJ Slone
Sami Ungureanu sure.
John Pierre Haumahu
it’s not about drink, it’s about get drunk….
my family not a drunker at all, but they drink alcohol with full of responsibility of their life and their body… they’re never get drunk, and never drink to much
John Pierre Haumahu
even now in Indonesia, some of the chruch here using like grape juice (or “non-alcohol wine) for the sacrament
Caleb Alex Alexander Sr.
Yeah, yeah and the water that Jesus turned into wine was actually Welch’s grape juice.
Jeremiah Waldrop
4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me?
Wine has to mean alcohol, right?
Billy Myers
Jeremiah Waldrop No in ancient Greek wine meant anything produced from a grape. Including jelly, butter, juice and alcoholic wine. They didn’t have different words for those like we do in English. In English we only have 1 word for love, in ancient Greek they have 4 words for it.
Caleb Alex Alexander Sr.
Jeremiah Waldrop I was being facetious. We actually don’t know if it was or wasn’t. There is plenty of argument on both sides.
Jeremiah Waldrop
Billy Myers People act as though Jesus asked for water so he could make wine; as though he went looking for sinners to “hang out” with. But when his own mother asked, He said -“Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me?
Caleb Alex Alexander Sr.
Jeremiah Waldrop yeah but then he turns the water into wine anyway. Always found that odd to be honest.
Billy Myers
Jeremiah Waldrop Yeah didn’t say it wasn’t his time yet. But he ended up doing it anyway.
Nicole Cardenas
Can we stop posting stuff saying who’s a real Christian about things that are clearly inaccurate. Can we get back to apologetics please
Theodore A. Jones
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Romans 2:13
Nicole Cardenas
Theodore what’s the point of your verse? Scripture says for us not be drunk the only exception is for a person who knows they’re dying. So where are you going with this?
Grace Williams
I agree Nichol, but you need to tell admin in this group.
Grace Williams
Nicole Cardenas I guess Theodore has to obey the law to go to heaven.
Theodore A. Jones
Nicole Cardenas Romans 2:13 is the soteriological paradigm written by and promoted by the apostle Paul. I’m not the author of that statement. I posted it relative to your request “Can we get back to apologetics please?”
Theodore A. Jones
Grace Williams If you don’t have the faith to comply with what is required of you by that law Paul is referencing it is certain that you will not enter heaven.
Nicole Cardenas
Theodore and who are you oh man to question if someone you briefly have been introduced to on FB is a repentant sinner and is saved by grace!? Sir, refrain yourself and look inwardly at the plank in your own eye before looking at specs in your fellow sibling in Christ.
Grace Williams
I guess you are not gonna answer me, Troy Day?
Varnel Watson
#sorry not during church – what do you need to know? Are you NOT IN church right now?
Grace Williams
Your definition of REAL Christian.
Varnel Watson
Grace Williams I will be happy to oblige after church Thank you For right now, one that actually IS in church during church time
Grace Williams
Troy Day I’m in UK – it’s late afternoon here, Thanks – and I fail to see what you are trying to impress others with by this comment ” For right now, one that actually IS in church during church time”
Aaron Trahan
Look up Kosher Wine and that it dates all the way to Biblical Times.
Cody Rasmussen
Clint Rasmussen
You might have some better insight in this.
Christie R. Connor- Hackney
For me, it’s all about your witness. We have one purpose here, the Great Commission. If non Christians see me go into a liquor store, that makes me no different than a drunkard in their eyes. No, they shouldn’t judge, but they do. I want them to see a difference, someone set apart from the world. I don’t think having a glass of wine is sending you to hell, but I believe it hurts your witness.
Yolanda Villagomez
The Bible does not forbid drinking alcohol, but it does warn against dangers of drinking too much, engaging in immoral behavior, and other consequences of alcohol abuse. While the Bible recognizes that drinking in moderation can be enjoyable and even safe, it contains passages that advise against heavy drinking.
Rudy Jenkins
No
Mark Wilson
Romans 14 (NIV) 19-22 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall. So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Nathaniel Taylor
Mark Wilson so don’t drink in front of alcoholics? Don’t eat cheeseburgers in front of obese people? Etc? Or do you propose this as verses in support of Teetotaling?
Mark Wilson
Nathaniel Taylor Exactly- Certain things should be between me and God.
Nathaniel Taylor
Mark Wilson fair enough
Steve Rubes
Sounds like then those Christians are actually Mormons. Although DJT has never had a drop. Does that make him a Christian? Alcohol is fine in moderation and your older than 21.
Nicholas Garrett
Really? This is such a modern western new age psychological view. There is nothing biblical about the idea given that 2000 years, and hundreds of cultures, and the billions of people that lived in them drank things containing alcohol for daily survival. Other cultures have used alcohol as effective medicine and pain reliever. This is garbage. It’s not even a theological subject or doctrine. It’s most likely the message of a recovered alcoholic, saved from it by Christ thinking everyone needs the vision and grace that they were blessed with. Recovery is a gift from god for the individual – not to be turned into Psuedo psychobabble theology. I don’t personally drink alcohol, but to argue against it from a Christian platform is to welcome legitimate criticism from people pointing to the idiots that say this crap.
Jasmine Hollins
Next you’ll be saying real Christians don’t sin…. ?
Varnel Watson
arnt you a smarty pants
Nick Shara
Jasmine Hollins next week they’ll be saying real christians are mythical creatures.
Jasmine Hollins
Nick Shara oh wait pretty sure many are saying that!!
Robby Thoren
I’ve been a Christian all my 36 years of life. I do drink at times and I have been told by non believers that they have slowed down drinking because of me. I guess I showed them that you don’t have to get stinken drunk to enjoy a few drinks.
Marion Silvestre
Hogwash. Completely Unbiblical.
John Watson
I’m going to drink a beer just to wash away the pain of your astounding ignorance.
Shawn Mckenzie
John Watson it would probably take more than 1 to wash that away.
Kieran McAlister
Stop it. Totally unbiblical. Paul even gave Timothy some wine for his stomach issues. C’mon ??♂️
Nick Shara
I guess jesus wasn’t a real christian then.
-Flippin morons
Sam Sears
Nick Shara change “flippin morons” to “people who can read.”
Nick Shara
Sam Sears you’ll have to prove that you can read first.
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking,
and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
-Matthew 11:18-19
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
-Luke 7:33-34
When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made non-alcoholic grape juice and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good non-alcoholic grape juice; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good non-alcoholic grape juice until now.
-John nothing!
When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
-John 2:9-10
Sam Sears
Nick Shara you just posted verses that includes Jesus drinking ! Your assertion that it was non alcoholic grape juice is foreign to the text and culture! They didn’t have preservatives to keep juice as juice for long.
Nick Shara
Sam Sears I’m the one who says it WAS alcoholic.
Nick Shara
Sam Sears this was in response to the OP that says real christians don’t drink.
Sam Sears
Nick Shara you response isn’t clear. You are putting the statement “I guess just wasn’t a real Christian” a statement coming from folks disagreeing with the OP, in the mouth of “flippin morons”
Nick Shara
Sam Sears fixed
Stewart MacLeod
Except Jesus of course and maybe Timothy but troll on why don’t you ?
Cullen Leggat
Moderation!
Stewart MacLeod
Troy Day are you a troll in this group?
John Foster
Impossible in Jesus’ day! By your definition, all 1st Century Christians were not real Christians! NOT!!!
Frank A. Mayorga Sr.
So I’m not really getting the jest of this post. Is someone straining out a gnat to swallow a camel? Remember the Master said What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.
John Watson
Frank A. Mayorga Sr. His very first miracle was also turning water into wine.
Miche Strole
false by far this claim is apganised late day dogma with no rot of scripture wichteaches alithle wine is healthy in modeate ways period
Sam Sears
Guess Jesus and his disciples weren’t real Christians.
Chase Hewlett
That is what we belive at our church!
Sydney Johnston
Chase Hewlett well you’re wrong sir. Choosing to not drink is one thing, and is fine. Believing Christians are not allowed to drink is foolish and unbiblical
Chase Hewlett
Sydney Johnston we all have our own beliefs and that ok
Sydney Johnston
Chase Hewlett well no, it’s not okay… if your church is leading you to believe something that’s not biblical why would you not want to understand that? Where does the Bible say Christians do not drink any alcohol?
Chase Hewlett
Sydney Johnston your right ! But our church believes in further revalation from God. One of which is we should not drink.
You can drink all you want, Nor do I think your a sinner for drinking. But that is what I belive.
Chase Hewlett
I hope this conversation does not affect our relationship ?
Sydney Johnston
Chase Hewlett no, it hasn’t we’re fine. I was just curious. I guess I’ve never heard of that, but I mean alcohol usually doesn’t bring much good anyways. I’ve never been a big drinker I just know that the Bible doesn’t say you cannot drink. Have a good day
Chase Hewlett
Sydney Johnston you too! God bless
Tanner Montoya
Chase Hewlett Hey! Just curious, what denomination of Christianity is your church a part of? ?
John Calogrides
Chase Hewlett That’s the mistake Catholics make, too. They listen to the church way way before they listen to scripture, the voice of God
Chase Hewlett
John Calogrides I totaly agree. I do believe in personal revelation by witness of the Holy Spirit and not just follow what your Pastor / Father/ Bishop says
Joel Lee
Jesus drank alcohol. You saying you’re better than Jesus?
Davers Spheres
A little wine is good for digestion. The Bible says
Davers Spheres
But don’t let it make u a fool.overdrinking
Greg Moore
Firstly at the wedding feast Jesus turns water into wine. The guest were astonished that they kept the best wine till last. Usually you serve the good wine first and the lesser wine after everyone is good and drunk. Secondly wine is made by the fermentation process which is used for food preservation. There was no refrigeration back and the day so they made wine which lasted for years. Some claim it was grape juice but that would not have last long at all in hot climates. So they drank wine plain and simple.
Glory Kramlich
Holy wine used for Holy Communion.
Joshua Seabolt
Glory Kramlich what is holy wine?
Nick Shara
Joshua Seabolt probably wine that prays to Mary and denies the fact that prayer is worship.
Joshua Seabolt
Nick Shara ooooooh
Joshua Seabolt
That depenticostal on what you think is a real christian. Judging on the link, you’ve been miss lead
Jasmine Hollins
Troy Day if you’re genuine about learning and being discipled in this please watch this.
https://youtu.be/MRpA4njHF64
Nick Thompson
I’ve watched this before, and he is very fair in his treatment of the subject. I enjoy many of his videos.
Billy Myers
Moody Allen I am positive about the definition of wine in Ancient Greek.
Billy Myers
Moody Allen And I don’t need your snarky remarks.
Moody Allen
Billy Myers yeah but why you taking the Greeks’ word for it? When Jesus was definitely born into the period on which Roman colonized Israel…?
Moody Allen
Billy Myers it was not mean’t to be snarky in any way…?
Billy Myers
Moody Allen because the New Testament was translated into English from the Ancient Greek manuscripts.
Nathaniel Taylor
Poor Timothy and the early church fathers…. they needed the SBC Teetotaling stamp to make it.
Marco Antonio Moreno Gutierrez
Nathaniel Taylor the reason Paul told you drink wine was because of Timothy’s stomach pain.
Nathaniel Taylor
Marco Antonio Moreno Gutierrez yep. Equally as good for Cholesterol no?
Marco Antonio Moreno Gutierrez
Nathaniel Taylor i didn’t know that
Nathaniel Taylor
Marco Antonio Moreno Gutierrez yes sir. Big promoter of HDL cholesterol which is protective.
Marco Antonio Moreno Gutierrez
Nathaniel Taylor good to know. Thanks for sharing
Varnel Watson
Nathaniel Taylor you are of course comparing apples to oranges in what appears to be very poor theology Deleted wine mix with water and spice was MEDICINE for Timothy and in the BIBLE not social drinking as you practice or wanted it to be The BIBLE does not allow your social drinking Margaritaville theology Neil Steven Lawrence Larry Dale Steele
Nathaniel Taylor
Troy Day who said anything about Social Drinking? That wasn’t what Timothy was doing. That instead was what Jesus was doing. Social celebration no? All alcohol in the store has water in it too. To claim that it was twin to our wine with water added in is baseless. Adding to the gospel by trying to force Teetotaling is putting works burdens on people and is the real sin that’s here.
“Everyone serves the good (grape juice) first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor (grape juice). But you have kept the good (grape juice) until now.” is nonsensical eisegesis.
Varnel Watson
Nathaniel Taylor you got out of it pretty fast didnt you 🙂 I dont mind if you drink wine made by Jesus did He make any for you lately or you just buy your at the bar?
Nathaniel Taylor
Troy Day oh so all wine is bad unless Jesus made it? More eisegesis. The Bible says don’t get drunk. You add an uneasy yoke and should repent of it.
Varnel Watson
Nathaniel Taylor If Jesus made it for you who am I to argue But I hear He dont make any for drunkards no more 🙂 http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/50-reasons-why-i-dont-drink-alcohol-ourcog-tot/
Billy Myers
Moody Allen Just like if you see the English word love. You have to say what kind of love? The love you have for your wife? your child? fishing? In the Ancient Greek they have 4 different words for it to explain which form of love, like eros or agape and I forget the other two.
Varnel Watson
TRUE
Ray E Horton
Nonsense! Real Christians don’t abuse alcohol, and are careful not to be a stumbling block for others.
Varnel Watson
you are NOT a real Christian then
Ray E Horton
Troy Day I will repeat, Nonsense! These matters have absolutely nothing to do with our Christianity.
James Michael Sanders
Ray E Horton it’s clear that he makes up controversy posts and statements for attention. This couldn’t be further from the biblical truth. We are commanded not to be drunkards. No we’re are we commanded not to drink a glass of wine for example.
By the way I don’t drink any alcohol at all by choice, position, personal conviction.
Ray E Horton
James Michael Sanders I don’t drink alcohol either. But, I dislike unbiblical attitudes that put otehr brothers and sisters down for something God isn’t saying.
James Michael Sanders
Ray E Horton me either, it’s disgusting
Leonard J. Ransil
I guess Troy’s belief means that Jesus, by drinking wine and even turning water into wine for others to drink, was Jewish but certainly “not a good Christian.” But, of course, you can blame God, His Father, because Jesus did not do anything unless the Father told Him or showed Him. So, which one “sinned” against Troy’s doctrine? ?
Varnel Watson
Leonard J. Ransil we can discuss this of course if you think you got any theology on it Pentecostal theology that is not your calvinistic frontological heresy
But first you need to shave your beard clean cut not some hippy looking calvinator AND second you need to produce even just ONE NT verse where it says Jesus drunk wine 🙂 Good luck – you can of course side with the pharisees who claimed Jesus drunk but guess what that makes you
So clean cut shave + ONE verse to start you up
Ray E Horton
Troy Day You sure like to cause contention. You’d have many more readers here if you didn’t. Lenny’s beard is just fine. And he’s no Calvinist, I can assure you, having known him for years and having read his books.
Varnel Watson
Ray E Horton he is on the wrong side of drinking cause he cant back it up with a single NT verse yet And when you say cause contention – what about? About lifestyle of righteousness Perhaps Joe Absher Jeff Johnson should join Lenny for an afternoon drink and not say much about it Nayh I say unto thee Holiness shall uphold the House of the Lord
Ray E Horton
Troy Day No, you are on the wrong side of drinking with a legalistic attitude about what the Bible doesn’t teach. Christians who have an occasional glass of wine with a meal don’t do so for the alcohol. It just goes well with certain meals, like Italian.
Varnel Watson
Ray E Horton I am on the NT side of drinking Jesus was pretty clear He shall not drink the fruit of the wine Nowhere is drinking justified in the NT and NO I cannot be on the right or wrong side of drinking because I am on the side of NON-drinking So until some NT theology backs ppl who drink they are just that 🙂
Are Christians who have occasional another woman with a meal right? No – occasional dont make it right No where in the NT says you can have occasional glass of wine
Ray E Horton
Occasional doesn’t make it is already right in that the NT does not condemn and even supports it. Occasional just means moderation.
Leonard J. Ransil
Troy Day I will consider shaving off my beard if you can prove to me Jesus NEVER had a beard. (See Isaiah 50:6) ? As for Him drinking wine, Mark 14:25 states clearly:”Verily I say unto you, I (Jesus) will drink no more of the fruit of the vine until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” In context, the phrase “I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine (wine)” implies that He has just drunk some (at the Passover meal – as prescribed) but won’t drink anymore UNTIL He has some in the kingdom of God (post-Cross.) So, if and when He offers you to have some wine with Him “in the Kingdom,” will you refuse – because you are “holier” than He is? Just askin.’ lol ? Lastly, as I already said, I am NOT a Calvinist – which I prove in my book by 1) showing how legalistic Calvin was in his “Institutes” and that 2) his interpretation of “predestination” is bogus. 3) Also, anyone who would agree to the execution of his former friend over a doctrinal disagreement – like Calvin did – is not very “Christian.” ?
Varnel Watson
Sorry Leonard J. Ransil you post a few days apart AND is hard to follow your logic IF you have any good verses from the NT to defend your position lets pick them up one by one but not 3 days apart. As of
I (Jesus) will drink no more of the fruit of the vine until that day
Pls take it with Jesus
If he said it is good enough for me
If he said not to drink it until then so shall I
Isara Mo
Monks don’t touch alcohol so do real Muslims…
Anything which alters the mindset is anathema in all spiritual schools… even the ones that don’t have the Spirit of the Lord..
A little wine for your stomach?..
Drink but not get drunk?
Well why not flirt and have no sex?..
Jesus said a lusty look at a woman is already the consummation of the sexual act, so a little flirting like a little drinking is already SIN…
Okere Chimuanya
Isara Mo you leave by law ,the blood of Jesus redeemed us to God .
Know the power of Grace .
He loved us before we loved him .law was abolished and grace has abound .come as you are he will accept you .
Varnel Watson
Okere Chimuanya Neil Steven Lawrence I dont know about that reference with the Muslims on that
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day supposedly Muhammad forbid alcohol only after he saw his Muslim warriors killing each other because they were drunk. Before that it was OK.
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence not sure why preachers drink or defend drinking Really NOT sure
Ray E Horton
Troy Day There is a difference between drinking to excess and having a glass of wine with a meal. They like it in the same way they like roast beef or pizza. I don’t drink because I have any problem with a little alcohol, but so as not to offend others.
Joshua A. Humphries
Actually, Trappist monks drink a beer that was invented to be a preserved nutrition source that would allow them to spend their cooking time during Lent to be dedicated to feeding the poor. It was discovered by the general public and they started making more fancy versions to sell so they could fund their monasteries.
Bill Stockham
“Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who has complaints? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who linger long at the wine, Those who go in search of mixed wine. Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it swirls around smoothly; At the last IT BYTES LIKE A SERPENT, And stings like a viper.” (Proverbs 23:29-32)
Robby Thoren
Wrong. The Bible says not to be drunkard. And it mentions several times a little wine is ok.
Varnel Watson
you are NOT a real Christian then
Skarlet Pike
Troy Day What do you think the Gospel is?
And how dare you contradict Scripture?
Robby Thoren
Troy Day lol. Your talking to me? How dare you judge someone that you don’t even know. That’s Gods job
The Bible talks a lot about judging others
James Michael Sanders
Skarlet Pike he doesn’t care what the Bible says. He only cares about controversy, division, judgement against Pastors and the body of Christ. I’ve seen this now for a while and it’s heartbreaking.
Ray E Horton
Troy Day You are trying to get people worked up to expand discussion. Not sure you are using a very godly method. I for one agree with some of the others in not liking it.
James Molenaar
I’m getting tired of people trying to say who is a real Christian and who isn’t. This is such an ignorant statement.
Varnel Watson
you are NOT a real Christian then
James Molenaar
how about you give evidence for your definitive statement.
Varnel Watson
James Molenaar just based on what you said
James Molenaar
that is enough evidence to say I am going to hell?
Varnel Watson
James Molenaar I did not say where you are going You are saying it Now WHY would you say that?
James Molenaar
If I am “NOT a real Christian” what other conclusion is there?
James Molenaar
Give evidence as to why REAL Christians do not drink ANY alcohol.
Varnel Watson
James Molenaar
Matthew 26:29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine
James Molenaar
give context
Varnel Watson
James Molenaar I tagged in you the CBD discussion for more context
James Michael Sanders
Troy Day wow could you take a scripture out of context any more haha
Billy Ray Vaughn
Troy Day That’s your opinion Troy, nothing more. You are guilty of the sins of the Pharisees.
Ray E Horton
Guys, Troy is obviously trying to get you worked up. Let’s see through it and ignore it.
Varnel Watson
never stops to amaze my how church folk want to sip, dip and do some CBD on the side 🙂 Neil Steven Lawrence Joe Absher Larry Dale Steele then get up Sunday morning and try to preach with NO power left in em
James Molenaar
Do you even know what CBD is?
Varnel Watson
probably not – do you want to tell me ?
James Molenaar
its a pain killer and anti depressant. it has no psychoactive properties. It does not get you high.
Varnel Watson
James Molenaar has no psychoactive properties is YET to be proven Pls read the latest research on it
James Molenaar
you keep searching man.
Matthew Foster
Christians shouldn’t drink alcohol. But you shouldn’t judge someone’s heart.
Varnel Watson
dont be judging us now then
Ketina Chris Swatsworth
I agree, they shouldn’t
Mark Lloyd
Those who follow Jesus do not call themselves Christians. For Jesus said not to call yourself names of leadership like “Christian”.
James Molenaar
This is not at all in context
Varnel Watson
how do you mean that? Mark Lloyd
Mark Lloyd
Troy Day – Jesus said not to call yourself names of leaders, or of leadership, but of servants. Christ is a name of a top leader (king, priest, prophet). Christ is not a name given to a servant, but to a Lord. And Christian is a name that indicates one pertains to a leader, not a servant. A disciple is a learner, not a master, or instructor. So it is good to call yourself a servant, or a disciple, but not a Christian, or a leader.
Mark Lloyd
James Molenaar – If the post has to do with obeying Jesus, then all the commands of Jesus are included in its context.
Shane Vanmeter
Mark Lloyd Very low level of you Mark. Christian literally means follower of Christ, if you’re a follower of Christ you are Christian. It cannot get simpler than that to understand.
Mark Lloyd
Shane Vanmeter – Jesus never used the word “Christian” when he was on earth for any of his followers. How do you know that his definition for this word that he never used is “follower of Christ”? The word comes from traditions of men which Jesus warned his followers not to follow, for they are made to take us away from following Jesus, and into following men.
Shane Vanmeter
Mark Lloyd First off my friend to say Jesus never used the word Christian is an argument from silence, there is no point for you you to even say that. Second, the word comes from scripture not traditions of men.
Mark Lloyd
Shane Vanmeter – The Writ of God, as first written, makes clear that it was the men of Antioch, in positions of leadership of that city, who did not believe in Jesus, who first decreed that the name “Christian” was to be given to the disciples of Jesus. So, this word comes from traditions of men, as is made clear in God’s word. And this same word says that when men called disciples by this name they were blaspheming Christ, by the way they used this name, making it a name for one who had committed a crime, like one being called a robber, or a thief.
Shane Vanmeter
Mark Lloyd 25So Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul,
26and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.
Acts 11
Nowhere does this suggest it was people with positions of leadership from Antioch that gave the term. It only says the disciples were first called Christian’s in Antioch. This does not say who called them Christian’s, and it does not suggest it was derogatory.
Shane Vanmeter
Mark Lloyd 28And Agrippa said to Paul, “In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?”
Acts 26
This literally is just Agrippa asking Paul if he would have him be persuaded to become a Christian aka follower of Christ in a short time.
Shane Vanmeter
Mark Lloyd And this is CLEARLY the disciples embracing the term Christian. It’s literally say to be happy to suffer as a Christian AKA follower of Christ.
12¶Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.
13But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.
14If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of gloryfn and of God rests upon you.
15But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.
16Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.
1 Peter 4
Mark Lloyd
Shane Vanmeter – The Acts 11:26 interpretation you are using is false. Luke wrote the disciples were first chrematised (not called) “Christians” in Antioch. A chrematising always must come from one in position of authority. The disciples did not have authority to give themselves a new name, one which neither Jesus, nor any of the apostles, ever gave to them. But the leaders of Antioch had authority to create new “names” by which they could assign penalties. Those who today are legally declared to be criminals (by various names) can then be punished with criminal punishments. The leaders of Antioch chrematised the disciples as “Christians” so that they could then be shamed, and punished, as criminals. False interpreters replace chrematised with “called” to encourage the false tradition of calling disciples what the leaders of Antioch first called them.
Mark Lloyd
Shane Vanmeter – Agrippa was not a follower of Christ when he asked if Paul was tying to make him a Christian. Paul never used that name in his reply. For he knew that it was a name that comes from men, and not from God.
Mark Lloyd
Shane Vanmeter – Your interpretation of 1 Peter 4 is also false. This passage, like that in Acts, has been altered to support the false doctrine that disciples are to be called Christian. But even in your false interpretation you can see that Peter connects the name “Christian” with other names of criminals. This is because the name “Christian” was made by leaders under Rome to describe a new type of criminal–a Christian. And many believers felt shame being called by this name. But Peter wrote they should not be ashamed. It was blasphemy for those who used this name, to use it as they did. But it was glory for those who were called by this name. For it is glory to be cursed in the name of Christ a s a Christian. — It is glory in Christ to be called Christian. And it is blasphemy against Christ to call someone Christian.
Shane Vanmeter
Mark Lloyd I didnt say Agrippa was a follower when he talked to Paul, and it doesn’t matter if Paul didn’t use the term in his response. You are again making an argument from silence.
You claim 1 Peter was altered but you did not provide any evidence of that. This is saying if you suffer for the sole reason of being a follower of Christ then do not be ashamed. You have to blatantly twist it to force it to say what you are suggesting. You have the false interpretation. Not one time in scripture does it suggest to not call someone Christian, scripture only embraces the term.
Mark Lloyd
Shane Vanmeter – Words written by Peter are below in upper-case. English interpretation is by me. Lines one and 14 of this arrangement begin with EI (if). Peter does this to show these lines are connected to each other. If you are onidized (have shameful insults hurled at you), if as Christians. It was the onidizers who called the disciples “Christians”, not the disciples themselves.
Shane Vanmeter
Mark Lloyd Sorry man but it is very very clearly stating that IF you suffer as a follower of Christ you are blessed. There is no other way to read it.
Mark Lloyd
Shane Vanmeter – If you (suffer) as Christian — do not be ashamed. Why did some disciples feel shame when they were called Christians? Why was this a shameful word to be called at that time? And if some saw it as shameful to be called this, then why would they call each other by this name? Paul writes about being attacked, or bullied, or criticized as Christians. He is not writing about disciples calling each other by this name. And if someone seeks to attack you using the name Christian, it is good for you. But Peter did not write it is also good for disciples to call each other by this name.
Shane Vanmeter
Mark Lloyd So now you are adding to the text when you assume believers felt ashamed. It does not say that. It says if, as a Christian, you suffer…. meaning if you suffer because you are a follower of Christ do not let the naysayers get to you instead rejoice for Christs sake and you will be blessed.
Mark Lloyd
Shane Vanmeter –
Peter wrote:
ΕΙ ΔΕ ΩΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΑΝΟΣ
If (de) as Christians
ΜΗ ΑΙΣΧΥΝΕΣΘΩ
(you must) not (be) ashamed
The word for suffer, ΠΑΣΧΕΤΩ, is used in line nine above, and links to lines 14-15. But the word used next to “Christians” is the word for being ashamed.
Shane Vanmeter
Mark Lloyd I know the word “suffer” is supplied in verse 16 but you choose to use it inappropriately. Here is what the YLT says:
and if as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; and let him glorify God in this respect;
So when the whole passage is read in context it is clear it is saying that if one must suffer as a follower of Christ then do not be ashamed but rather rejoice. Don’t be ashamed to call yourself Christian brother.
Mark Lloyd
Shane Vanmeter – Why would I want to onidize (criticize) myself in the name of Christ, by calling myself a Christian? Why would I want to take on a name that rejects the command to call myself a servant, and not a leader, and a learner, and not a master? Also, Peter writes that those who do use “Christian” in such a way are blaspheming Christ, though this is often censored in translations. Why would I want to blaspheme (cause harm to the fame) of Christ?
Shane Vanmeter
Mark Lloyd Peter does not say if you suffer because you were called a Christian, no, he says if you suffer AS A CHRISTIAN, meaning (and the context is clear) that if you are being insulted for simply being a follower of Christ then rejoice and be blessed. I’m sorry but you twist scripture and it’s quite sad. I hope the best for you.
Mark Lloyd
Shane Vanmeter – Good word to you too Shane. If you ever learn to read Peter’s words the way he wrote them, you may find he says what you do not see now that he says.
Varnel Watson
Mark Lloyd r u a real Christiasn or not ?
Billy Ray Vaughn
Drunkenness is a sin, alcohol is not.
Varnel Watson
says WHO and where ?
Billy Ray Vaughn
Troy Day Common sense and scripture. Paul said be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, he also commanded to drink a little wine for the stomachs sake. Jesus turned water to wine, real wine, that had the similitude of age. During the passover meal, 4 cups of REAL wine were consumed. Go ask an observant Jew about grape juice, they’d laugh at the ignorance.
Billy Ray Vaughn
Troy Day The original languages clearly indicate in both Hebrew and Greek that when wine is mentioned in scripture, it means real fermented wine. Fermentation was for preservation. Fresh grapes were only for a short season. The pasteurization process was invented in the 1800s that allowed juice to be preserved without fermentation. Throughout the history of the Church, real wine was always used in Communion, until puritanical teetotalers came on the scene mid 1800s.
Mitchell Effie Catron
No to Nyquil.
Varnel Watson
Billy Ray Vaughn Common sense is not Gods sense Nowhere in the BIBLE it says anything bout Gods ppl being OK with social drinking Show us from the BIBLE
Billy Ray Vaughn
Troy Day I’ve already told you what Paul said, be not dunk in excess, and drink a little wine for the stomachs sake. But… You are determined that you are right no matter what scripture or anyone else says. Paul also says let your moderation be known to all men. A man of moderation can drink alcohol, never get drunk, and therefore not sin. I’ve never been drunk in my life, but I can drink alcohol with no desire to be drunk. Anyone can who is a man of moderation.
Varnel Watson
Billy Ray Vaughn little wine for the stomachs sake was only to ONE person as medicine It is not a rule to live by
Billy Ray Vaughn
Troy Day It’s not a “rule to live by” it’s simply a matter of reason. If a person wants to drink no alcohol at all, fine. If a person does, that is also fine, given that he has the moderation to not be a drunkard. Use it for medicine, drink it instead of a soda, it makes no difference. A soft drink is also harmful to your health, one serving of alcohol is not.
Jeff Johnson
Billy Ray Vaughn How many folks have you seen go to the liquor store because they have a bellyache? Just wondering
Varnel Watson
Jeff Johnson few have been using the excuse tho
David A Dawson
Jesus sip wine.
Varnel Watson
says WHO and where ?
Ray E Horton
Wedding feast of Cana! Do you think He would have performed that miracle if He was against the consumption of wine?
Shasten Marshall
Real Christian’s don’t LIE, or JUDGE people. Just saying.
Varnel Watson
now that we cleared that can you address the OP?
Shasten Marshall
Troy Day Well, I don’t think it’s sinful to occasionally have a drink, but also your life isn’t your own. So, I think it all depends on a few different issues that would arise. If you are having a drink more than once every month or two, then I think you are living for yourself.
Jevan Little
Real Jews drink wine….
Varnel Watson
are you not a NT believer or still under law?
Nancy Hensley
AMEN!
Sally Orwig
Jesus drank wine.
Varnel Watson
where does it say He did?
Wesley Surber
Is this some kind of out of season April fool’s joke?
Anthony Spartacus Giles
Nick Quient oh
Bobbi Goff Klein
I don’t
Varnel Watson
what you say here Robert Cox
Roland Smith
Did not Jesus drink wine, and even turn water into wine, at the wedding,
Varnel Watson
Jesus did NOT – says He turned does NOT say He drank it Whats your point anyways?
Terry Barber
Troy Day Jesus did drink wine… the scriptures said he worried not drink wine AGAIN… meaning he drank but wasn’t a drunk. Here’s another scripture for you
Luke 7:34 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners
Roland Smith
Terry Barber Yes, thanks for your reply. I agree that Christian’s should not drink to the point of drunkenness, but drinking alcohol its self is not a sin. But your input was useful.
Thank you.
Varnel Watson
Roland Smith there is NO such restriction in the NT Jesus Himself said He will drink it no more
Cecil Jane Dyar
The alcoholic had to take the first, second, third, etc. know your destiny as well as your testimony!
Varnel Watson
do what now?
Misty L. Helbert
There is certain wine that is good for the body, however the scripture states do NOT BE DRUNKEN ? STUPER DO NOT DRINK IN EXCESS TO GET DRUNK! We should use common sense if you can’t handle it it best to GIVE IT UP!!? People are only using the wine at the wedding feast when JESUS turned the water into wine ? to justify drinking alcohol! ? The wine at the wedding feast is not the type of wine to get you drunk! GOD ALMIGHTY wants us SOBER….NOT STUPID!!!!
Varnel Watson
says that WHERE exactly ?
Pierre Fransua
1 Timothy 5:23 KJV
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.
Kay Pope
that was because their water was polluted and they had bugs!
Pierre Fransua
Kay Pope and you’re basing this off of factual evidence, or speculation? Please present facts… The Lord wouldn’t have allowed it in His Word had He not wanted it there… That’s a fact!
Varnel Watson
you must be one sick drunk Pierre Fransua
Pierre Fransua
Troy Day I’m drunk on the Holy Ghost, which is where you should be instead of insulting people… If you don’t like what’s written in the word of God, than maybe you should take it up with him… There’s no one forcing you to drink wine. Because you don’t believe it, that doesn’t give you the right to judge people who do… Especially since there’s no condemnation for it in the bible… Jesus used wine to represent his blood that we should drink in memory of the blood he shed for you… Luke 22:20 KJV
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Brett Haas
So I guess the 1st miracle when Jesus turned water into wine was a a sin!
Varnel Watson
did Jesus drink from that wine ?
Pierre Fransua
Troy Day why would he use his power to create a drink to cause everyone who drank it to sin?!? Are you saying Jesus caused them to sin? He knew they would drink the wine he just created out of water… ? Dude, lose the pharasitic spirit… Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling… ?
Brett Haas
Troy Day probably, He was at the party. The Bible doesn’t reference his bathroom habits either, but I’m sure He used the bathroom.
Kind of like the movie “A Few Good Men” when on cross Tom Cruise’s character asked the witness to take the Marine Training Manual and read to the court about the chow hall.
I will never understand why people want to push nonbelievers further away by having useless banter like this.
Varnel Watson
Brett Haas does it matter Jesus said He will drink the fruit of the vine NO more until NEW? I think it matters What would Jesus do – well not drink it until new. Should we do like Jesus? Billy Monroe Poff I dont think an honest conversation on social drinking is a useless banter Well may be just for the wine lovers
Brett Haas
Troy Day or maybe just for those who like to argue about stupid crap when the world is going to Hell around them
Louise Cummings
Amen.
Varnel Watson
I still think this is SO true
Jeff Johnson
Man, every time I write my daily devotion on Proverbs 20:1 or 23:29-35 or any other verse about being sober all of the sipping saints show up! It’s great ?
Varnel Watson
Jeff Johnson it is SAT eve Trying to get my 3 sermons for tomorrow and just learned may be a sunday school lesson live or online. been trying hard to focus but those social sipping, chew dipping and CBD tripping christians are taking ALL my time defending their open Take it to GOD already, deal with it and BE entirely sanctified
Jeff Johnson
Troy Day ???
Jeff Johnson
Troy Day Be blessed brother!! Keep speaking the Truth in love.
Varnel Watson
Jeff Johnson but how is this work pls someone drinking pls tell me So we are arguing here with our dear brother Jeffro against social drinking while many preachers even in this group are right now in the local pub grabbing “dinner” and opening a cold one while waiting at the bar No problem they say They dont get drunk with a few They can still drive home or to the church to check on tomorrows program after dinner Then in the morning still with liquor on their breath walk in church stand in the pulpit where saints of Most High have once preached the Gospel and share their little sunday morning story with the happy parishioners Nayh I say unto thee GOD will not show up in such church
Dont ask me why there is NO power in your church and yoru membership is in decline Your power went down the drain with your Sat night beer drinking habit
Can I get a witness Melvin Harter
Jeff Johnson
Come on somebody!! If you don’t drink to feel it, why not just drink something else?? If
Ray E Horton
Troy Day At the pub is far different than a glass of wine with dinner in the privacy of one’s own home.
Varnel Watson
Ray E Horton sin is sin
Ray E Horton
Troy Day Yep, sin is sin, but not that which isn’t sin.
Mark Lloyd
Troy Day – If I were to call myself a Christian, then you would know for certain I am not a follower of Jesus.
Shane Vanmeter
Mark Lloyd Well I hope you and all 5 of the other people in the world who agree with you have a nice life.
Mark Lloyd
Shane Vanmeter – Good word to you. Good to hear how you see it.
Emery Jay Vintes
Sip? LOL
Varnel Watson
sipping dipping and tripping Christians
Randy Robin
That’s b******* it’s okay to drink but not get drunk
Varnel Watson
I never read in my Bible about drinking without getting drunk It must be some new humanistic teaching and not the BIBLE Perhaps similar to cursing in a Pentecostal group using stars People have just gotten too far in their pride against GOD Jeff Johnson
Jamie Brown
Brother Troy Day and others, let me ask you this as a general question:
Do you recognize how great an error it would be and how displeasing to God it is if you teach a human tradition as a command and if you condemn something that isn’t necessarily sinful?
Do you at least recognize how seriously wrong it would be to go beyond what is written and condemn the just?
So if you’re going to call even tasting alcohol a sin you need to have solid explanations for the multiple places in scripture that seem to make it okay (John 2 and 1 Timothy 5) and you need to have solid biblical evidence that it is inherently sinful.
You need to really be convinced from the Word of God.
I’m not going to repeat what others have already said, nor am I accusing anyone of anything but I just hope you recognize the weight of this issue.
This is all coming from someone who doesn’t really drink at all I don’t have a dog in the fight except for desiring truth.
Varnel Watson
Let me ask you this
obviously you got NO Biblical case – referring to wine as medicine in Timothy and John 2 which does NOT say Jesus drunk the wine
NOW then
Did Jesus say He would NOT drink the fruit of the vine until new in heaven? Why should you/we defend any other stance BUT Jesus
Do you recognize how big of a stumbling block you could be with your non-Biblical theology for a recovering alcoholic in your church – just wondering if you recognize the magnitude
Jamie Brown
Troy Day
I’m trying to be respectful but your interpretation of that statement from Jesus is a very poor handling of scripture. If you look at the whole passage he says something very different from what you seem to be suggesting.
First of all he said that right after he commanded his disciples to drink of it, and according to Paul’s account in 1 Corinthians 11 we are to do so continually do until he returns.
So at the same time he said he wasn’t going to drink it he told his disciples that they SHOULD drink it.
I also think you miss the point about John 2. Regardless of whether or not Jesus drank the wine, he provided it for the guests. Would he have provided it if drinking it was sinful?
And so what if Paul’s command was for medicinal purposes? It still demonstrates that it’s not inherently sinful.
You are suggesting that we need to call something evil because it could lead to sin.
That kind of logic could be used to ban all kinds of behavior.
If a given person can’t have a drink without it leading to more, then that person should avoid it, doesn’t make it sinful for everyone.
It’s muddling the issue to speak of instances where having a single drink COULD be sinful verses saying it is ALWAYS sinful.
Many things could be a sin in a given situation that aren’t sinful in themselves.
Varnel Watson
Jamie Brown should drink WHAT?
It says CUP not wine
Every narrative of the Last Support says CUP
To say it is wine is reading your theology within the actual text
Again – show me ANY NT verse and lets talk about it but just a friendly warning – there is NO such verse in the NT
Jamie Brown
I’m not the one who identified “This fruit of the vine” as wine, you did.
That statement is clearly a reference to what’s in the cup, he says “THIS” fruit of the vine.
Unless that’s a mistranslation, but it’s the same in KJV, NASB, ESV, and NIV.
“And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.””
Matthew 26:27-29
Christopher Lance Dart
Troy Day So what is in the cup then that we should drink in remembrance of Him?
Christopher Lance Dart
Ask a Jew what the biblical view of alcohol is… They use wine ea Sabbath as part of their prayers at home. It is part of Passover. Part of other feasts. And Jesus made the best vintage at the wedding at Cana! “Wine to gladden the hearts of man” There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything. It is part of Holy Communion in every traditional church tradition. Some people just want to equate any kind of pleasure with sin, and that is idolazing asceticism.
Varnel Watson
are Jews? Tom Steele has long informed us the wine used at the Last Supper was NON alcoholic That some Jews are drunks cant be helped much JUST Look what happened to Noah
Chris Baudean
Nem 4
Daniel J Hesse
What about a swish and swaller?
Daniel J Hesse
?
Varnel Watson
bottom line Ray E Horton
Sin is SIN
Start occasional turns into habit
ends up with death
Jamie Brown if you are still searching I will be more than happy to respond to ANY NT verse you can find on this Just list them one by one and keep the discussion going
Christopher Lance Dart tell us what the BIBLE says about the CUP Does it say wine or is it simply an assumption ?
Ray E Horton
Troy Day Sure, sin is sin and becomes habit if we were talking about sin. A slice of watermelon tastes good in the summer, a glass of wine for many tastes good with pizza. Talk about habit, how about coffee?
Christopher Lance Dart
Troy Day You’re deflecting. I asked what you thought was in the cup. He said “Drink from it, all of you,” so it wasn’t empty and wasn’t just a metaphor.
They were celebrating Passover and three cups of wine are used during the Passover seder dinner.
Varnel Watson
Christopher Lance Dart not at all – I answred you PLAINLY It says what it says
says CUP – YES
does it say wine – NO
What does it mean?
means communion
certainly does NOT mean social drinking or occasional glass of wine as Ray E Horton suggested earlier
Brett Haas
Troy Day the bottom line is that you want to argue and don’t really have a leg to stand on but you like to argue and cause strife with others.
You are seem so ridged in your stance that you are not open for a discussion and most of the time this is rooted in pride.
Since you are not open minded enough to have an intelligent conversation I will refrain from further comments on any of your posts.
Mike Partyka
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
Varnel Watson
nope Brett Haas I stand on the BIBLE You stand on your old drinking habit SHOW at least ONE NT verse where drinking is allowed and I will show you 10 where holiness is required
Varnel Watson
Brett Haas oh WOW some Christian you are Alan Smith Joe Absher Larry Dale Steele Neil Steven Lawrence Jeff Johnson Billy would what Brett called me for preaching against drinking be considered persecution for the Gospel or need I persevere even more from this unsanctified feller
Brett Haas
Troy Day you seem to think holiness is something that you do or are?
Jesus changed water to wine, used wine to serve communion and said not to practice drunkenness not to not consume wine.
Larry Dale Steele
Troy Day I would say so
Varnel Watson
Brett Haas I know holiness is not cursing out your brother in public That much I do know about holiness
Brett Haas
You don’t seem to know the difference between a curse and colocial expressions in today’s time, I also don’t know by your banter that you are a Christian.
Varnel Watson
Brett Haas and you dont seem to know holiness living from a hole in the wall but I still dont cuss you out for it
Brett Haas
Troy Day I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t survive true persecution sense you seem to believe that persecution is not agreeing with you and hurting your little fragile feelings!
Varnel Watson
Brett Haas that 1st class hole you just dug yourself in the more you dig it the deeper it gets 🙂 Do let me know when you are ready to talk actual BIBLE if got any
Billy Monroe Poff
According to history, when the wine was drank, it was mixed with water and lowered the alcohol to very low levels. Even the wine by itself would not match the alcohol content we have in the wines of today. I used to make wine in a 10 gallon crock back in the day when I was a sinner. And all though it was good, it wasn’t as ‘strong’ as what I could buy, so I would mix a half gallon of moonshine in the 10 gallon crock to significantly raise the alcohol content. (Sorry to those who thought I was always a Christian) The wine itself was stored in vessels by itself and was mixed when served. The average mix was 3 parts water to 1 part wine. (Which is interesting that it was water that Jesus had the disciples put into the barrels. I think there may be a study here on the wine representing the blood of Jesus and when the soldier stabbed him it was blood mixed with water that came out. Just an interesting rabbit trail that came into my mind just now) So, according to ancient history, Anyone who drank the wine by itself without mixing it with water was considered a barbarian or a drunkard. Not to mention, if you drank it without mixing it, it wouldn’t last throughout the year until the next harvest. So the whole point up until now is that the wine we have today is MUCH stronger than what the wine was back then. And let’s just say for the sake of argument that the alcohol content was all the same, the Bible gives us a MULTITUDE of verses that condemn drinking alcohol. I’m not going to list any of the many verses that talk about drunkenness and talk about drunkards not going to heaven. I think anyone who reads the Bible is convinced on that. The argument is whether or not Christians should drink alcohol on a moderate level. (before I get into that, let me just interject that it’s common fact that every generation gets a little further away from the truth. So what you do in moderation, your kids will do in excess. And causing your kids to become drunkards should be reason enough not to ever drink so as to set a Godly example.) So first, let me list some verses and a few explanations: Pro 20:1 says, “Wine is a mocker, Strong drink is a brawler, And whoever is led astray by it is not wise.” Pro 23:29-33 says, ” Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who has complaints? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who linger long at the wine, Those who go in search of mixed wine. Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it swirls around smoothly; At the last it bites like a serpent, And stings like a viper. Your eyes will see strange things, And your heart will utter perverse things.” It says that those who drink wine has woe, sorrow, contentions & complaints & makes your heart utter perverse things. Hos 4:11 says, “Harlotry, wine, and new wine enslave the heart.” That’s simple. It says that wine will enslave you. (cause an addiction) Hab 2:15 says, “Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor,..” Why not give drink to your neighbor? Because your opening him up to an evil addiction. Also, when you get into the New Testament, the Bible says that God has called us as Christians to be kings and priests before the Lord. In 1Pe 2:9 ” But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;” and in Revelation 1:5-6, “To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father,..” So, how should we live our lives here on earth as kings and priests of God? Well, the law for the priests banned them from all drinking.Lev 10:9- 11 says, “Do not drink wine or intoxicating drink, you, nor your sons with you,…. that you may distinguish between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean, and that you may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD has spoken to them by the hand of Moses.” So, it refers to wine and all alcohol as unholy and unclean. And referring to kings, Solomon said in Pro 31:4 ” It is not for kings, O Lemuel, It is not for kings to drink wine, Nor for princes intoxicating drink;”
Also, there was a vow that people would take in the Old Testament called The Nazirite vow. This vow is taken by individuals who have voluntarily dedicated themselves to God. The vow is a decision, action, and desire on the part of people whose desire is to yield themselves to God completely. By definition, the Hebrew word nazir, simply means “to be separated or consecrated. Hmm…isn’t this what the New Testament teaches us? To wholly consecrate ourselves to the Lord? Well, part of that Nazarite vow was to completely abstain from any alcohol. Again, because it is unholy.
And it’s not just for our sakes that we’re to abstain from alcohol, but also for the sake of others. Let’s just say that it was okay for someone to drink on occasion. There are others who have very addictive personalities, and if they see you drinking as a Christian and deduce that it’s ok, then they become drunkards and lose their soul, the shame would be on us cause we caused them to stumble. Remember that Rom 14:21 says, ” It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.” And Rom 14:22 says, “Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.” Also, Timothy gives instructions for bishops in 1Ti 3:2, and says, ” A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; So a leader of God’s people should not drink wine.
It’s not my intent to debate this or to pass judgment against anyone. I just present the scriptures as they are. I have many many more, but if someone can’t be convinced with these, then I’ll be wasting my time with the many others. I will end with one final scripture:
1Pe 2:11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul,
Vernon Dalton
Billy Monroe Poff I remember that shine wine well.
Billy Monroe Poff
Cleston Walton
Billy Monroe Poff Tho at length – well stated. (Yet I disapprove of the ‘judgemental’ and false title – that: “Real Christian don’t drink ANY alcohol”.
Cleston Walton
Billy Monroe Poff Great writting.
Varnel Watson
go tell it on the mountain Billy Monroe Poff aint no body wanna listen this kind of preaching any more ppl be drinking
Anonymous
I totally agree 💯
Anonymous
Real Christians are Nazarenes.
Anonymous
Philip Williams Nazarene is a person from Nazarette
Nazarite is a jewish man who took the vow
Jesus was a Nazarene, but He was not a Nazirite
He touched dead people
Because Nazarene and Nazirite have similar spellings, many people confuse the terms. But it is important to make the distinction, since Jesus was often called a Nazarene (e.g., Mark 10:47 and Acts 22:8) but not a Nazirite. Our Lord did not follow the rules laid out for a Nazirite in the Mosaic Law
Anonymous
Troy Day I mean Holiness Nazareens
Anonymous
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/what-trump-said-about-religious-liberty-late-term-abortion-and-socialism-in-his-third-state-of-the/
Anonymous
What happens when new wine(grape juice) goes into old wine skins?
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs they actually had a way to keep wine sweet in both the OT and the NT but that’s another story
Anonymous
When is the last harvest of the year?
And how many months from that point until the time of Passover?
Anonymous
It’s a wise choice but not forbidden by Scripture.
Scripture warns against drunkeness.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess saying 1 drink is OK but 2 is 1 2 many
Is like saying fornicating with 1 woman is OK but not with 2
Anonymous
In those days fermented wine was made from fruit to preserve it. They didn’t have freezers in those days. Many times the water had parasites in and would make them sick.
Anonymous
Joan A Andrew very true.
1 Timothy 5:23 (KJV)
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs this is ONLY if you are with sick stomach – are you sick ?
Anonymous
Troy Day also wine when taking communion.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs but NOT for social drinking per se
Anonymous
Troy Day no I’m not vouching for social drinking.
Anonymous
Joan A Andrew that is the old repeated cliched theology about wine. The bible is silent. We do know to give it to those who are bitter. I would rather share the joy of Jesus with them.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse ppls jst wanna drink – thatS ALL
Anonymous
Troy Day agreed 100%.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse ppl who wanna drink will ALWAYS find a reason
Anonymous
Really…??
Can you honestly support this scripturally?
Anonymous
Len Sterling can you?
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m interested in your position based on scripture sir.
I’m really asking sincerely.
Anonymous
Len Sterling I have expressed it many many times
You can read it here in the group discussions
or you can read it in my comments on the website
I am against drinking if this is what you ask
WHICH scripture are you asking about specifically ?
Anonymous
Troy Day my question was can you scripturally support that Real Christian’s do not drink any alcohol?
So, I thought if you posted such a topic that you’d likely be willing to respond with how that stance is supported scripturally.
I’m also not new to theological circles of discussion and have no interest in digging through things you may have posted in the past.
Just genuinely looking for how you arrived at this place with regard to alcohol consumption as a follower of Christ…?
If however I’m asking too much sir, please just lovingly just tell me that.
Anonymous
Len Sterling Yes and there is over 500 comments to prove it Which scripture do you feel justifies your desire to drink?
Anonymous
https://www.pentecostalnews.com/2023/01/23/god-said-this-to-me-about-my-alcohol-addiction/
Anonymous
I take it that this person is completely embarrassed by Jesus when He turned water into alcoholic wine in John 2
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock which person are you talking about?
Do you have any proof from the BIBLE this was alcoholic?
Have you even looked into the Greek there?
Anonymous
Troy Day Yes Greek makes it clear. When you actually read the text of John 2, it is extremely clear that the wine is alcoholic.
Anonymous
Troy Day You must be embarrassed by Jesus Christ for turning water into alcoholic wine
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock NO I am not embarrassed pls explain how the Greek makes it clear John Mushenhouse is avid b-greeker too and we would love to check your grammar if you dare share it of course 🙂
Anonymous
Troy Day So you have never read John 2 and read the text properly
Anonymous
Troy Day It seems you are embarrassed by Jesus. You are extremely legalistic about alcohol. The Bible does not say that Christians cannot drink alcohol. There are warnings about not getting drunk, nowhere does the Bible say you cannot drink alcohol.
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock you repeated the same nonsense argument SO you got my attention.
How is your strawman argument proving your ad hominem against me as a person – not my point?
This one is very very simple
If you can ask Jesus to make wine from water as in Jn 2 I will drink alongside you – can you do that now or are you embarrassed to do it so you just get yours at the store?
I believe John Mushenhouse Michael Chauncey Neil Steven Lawrence can join us to Let;s make it a date
pls provide time and place where your theology on this shall materialize You will pour water in a great big stone jar
You will pray and Jesus will honor your prayer
and then we all drink – deal?
I think though you are embarrassed by your deep secret desire to drink and what you need to pray for is deliverance
Anonymous
Not once did Jesus ever tell His disciples to respect the unbiblical beliefs of others.
Not. One. Time.
Anonymous
This post is legalistic and based on a false premise that Christians cannot drink alcohol. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Christians cannot drink. This post totally ignores Jesus in John 2 turning water into alcoholic wine. The Bible does warn about not abusing alcohol, and does warn about not getting drunk.
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock oh no Sir – you tell me the time and place when you gonna pray and water turn to wine like this Bible story and I will be there to see it
Your desire to drink is so great that @ 6 30 in the morning you are up ready to drink and twist the Bible to back it up 🙂
BOTTOM LINE you cannot provide a single NT verse to back your desire for drunkenness’ That will be all…
Anonymous
Troy Day Show me where it says Christians cannot drink alcohol in the Bible. Please tell me why you deny Jesus turning water into alcoholic wine when it is found in the Bible, John chapter two. You either ignore the text or you have never read the text.
Anonymous
Troy Day Are you saying that the Bible is only a story book and that Jesus never turned water into alcoholic wine in John 2.
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock As a matter of fact I sad exactly the opposite Why dont you pray for water to turn into wine and post a video of the result? Can you do this pls – because all you have provided so far for your fake theology is words – how about you post a video how your fake theology works so we can all learn from you? Even John Mushenhouse will take notes with Neil Steven Lawrence
Anonymous
come on John McWhirter-Whitlock dont be getting shy on me now
When was the last time you asked Jesus to turn the water to wine?
How did it work out ?
Anonymous
Troy Day Why do you have a problem with Jesus turning water into alcoholic wine. Why do you deny John 2. I asked you to provide Bible verses to support your legalism. Show me where it says in the Bible that Christians cannot drink alcohol? You have a problem with Jesus turning water into alcoholic wine.
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock I do not have such problem
As a matter of fact I kindly asked you and ask here again that you ask Jesus to turn water into wine and post a video ?
Why are you ashamed of your fake theology?
Why are you attacking me personally instead of simply proving to all of us you can drink the wine Jesus made?
How about that video of all this right about now?
Anonymous
Troy Day I am challenging you to support your claim that Christians cannot drink alcohol. I am asking you to quote chapter and verse to support your claim that Christians cannot drink alcohol. You deliberately ignore that Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine in John 2. It is about you claiming that Christians cannot drink alcohol wine. You offer no Bible verses to support your claim. You ignore the text in John 2 where the MC makes comments about the good wine coming last. Please answer your view with Scripture.
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock I did support my claim and I challenge you to post a video where you pray and water turns into wine just like in the BIBLE – can you do this now?
Anonymous
Troy Day No you have not. You offer no Bible verses to support your claim. I used John 2 as Jesus himself turned water into alcoholic wine. You are saying Jesus did not turn water into alcoholic wine. You are fixated on me turning water into alcoholic wine. Yet you deny Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine. I never made any claim about turning water into alcoholic wine. All I have done is use Scripture that stated Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine. That is all. I never claimed to do that and you know that. You are deflecting from the real issue of your ongoing refusal to give us Scripture verses to support your claim.
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock instead of copy pasting insults JUST post us the video for all to see… I’ll wait
Anonymous
Troy Day I never said anything about turning water into alcoholic wine. Never. You know that. I am not insulting you. I am ASKING you to simply PROVIDE Scripture and verse to support your claim that Christians cannot drink alcohol. Troy why are you afraid to provide Bible verses to support your claim. Your post is legalistic and offers no Bible verses to support your views. Prove from Scripture that Christians cannot drink alcohol.
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock Here is my take 1 Cor 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. –1 cor 10 23“Everything is permissible,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible,” but not everything is edifying. 24No one should seek his own good, but the good of others.… What help do you get from drinking alcohol unless you are bitter of heart meaning not saved – Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to those who are bitter of heart. Proverbs 31:6 IN the Hebrew the word perishing = to wander away . How does my drinking benefit others or does it give others a reason to drink as well. What if it causes another to fall? Paul said in Romans 14 20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[a]–How is my indulgence of the flesh glorifying God? We are told to put that flesh to death. There is a thin line between taking a drink and drinking to excess. Most have no clue to their limit either. I just believe that there are more God-pleasing things to do. We are the light of the world. So many forget that and seek ways to live for themselves. Some stretch the line as too how far can they go and still be in God’s will. Why do that at all? — 8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. Phil 4:8 —
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse The take is the Bible does not say Christians cannot drink alcohol, never has done. The Bible does warn us about the misuse of alcohol and warns about not getting drunk.
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock it says if it causes your brother to stumble – don’t – why play these games just to prove you are right or that you can drink. What if I told you that I get angry when a Christian plays that game with drinking. THus I stumble. Here what the word says Luked 17:2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. — Do you drink alcohol?
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I am not playing games, you are misusing Scripture to support your argument.
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock you have no clue to what misuse of scripture is. You are playing games,. I don’t think you have any training and like to think you are an internet scholar. If you were, you would give proper citations. You are avoiding showing proof by accusing me of misusing the word. Take your games back to the stop playing church room where all think they are better Christians than others.
Anonymous
Troy refuses to give any Scripture to support his views and when I ask him to give Scripture to support his views he refuses
Anonymous
The Greek word for wine in John 2 is the word oinos, this term is used for the common Greek word for normal wine, wine that was fermented/alcoholic. The same word is used in Eph 5:18 as Paul writes “do not get drunk on wine” Therefore oinos that is used in John 2 is also used in Eph 5:18 both these Scriptures make it very clear that it is alcoholic wine. To say that Christians cannot drink alcohol has no valid standing. The author of this post has been asked by me that he supports his view by giving Scripture to support his views, he has consistently refused to do so. If people are going to post things that they believe is from God, they need to support their view through Scripture, not make blanket statements.
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock, Troy Day I searched Colin/Brown, Lidell/Scott, Bill Mounce, Zodhiates , Wuest, Vincent, Robertson and Kittel. It is a drink made from grapes. While the use of the word outside of the bible usually speaks of a fiery pagan drink, does the NT especially John 2 says that. What happened in John was that never before had such wine been made as God made it and made it from water or dumping the water, He made it out of nothing. Do we have such today? No. It is made out of grapes today. I don’t see Jesus doing that process in John 2. If you read it He had the servants bring water pitchers to Him and after He made the wine to the chief steward.- our Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour turned the water into wine, not by his touch, or even by his word, but by his will. This is the omnipotence of God. No prophet or apostle ever did such a thing. He who can turn ordinary water into extraordinary wine, by a mere act of his will, is the omnipotent God. By filling the pots to the “brim” with water, Jesus left no room for any alternative explanations for this miracle. This sentence shows the magnitude of the miracle. The water had turned to wine by this point.
This wine was not from the vine and thus not effected from the curse due to the fall. It was one of a kind and never to be duplicated. The bible doesn’t say it was alcohol only that it was great. You can’t use this one of a kind wine to try to prove that our plant wine is alcohol or that it is ok to drink wine. Jesus made a separate type wine. You or any winery can’t make that. Accept no substitutes.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse The Greek makes it clear it was alcoholic. The text in John 2 does make it clear that from the MC point of view it was alcoholic.
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock no it doesn’t. Where did you get your training in Greek and did you recognize one of the sources I gave. They are the most respected. The Greek says a drink made from win=e. Plus you fail to address the effect of the curse on it and what Jesus made was different. You just repeat your statements over and over and you offer no proof. Again where did you learn koine Greek.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Yes it does, very clear and the text also makes it clear. You have failed to address that the Bible does not say Christians cannot drink. Please give chapter and verse where it says Christians cannot drink alcohol.
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock why don’t you tell me where you studied greek? You offer no proof and I cited the most important sources. Are you SPE – stop playing expert. Now show some legit sources and not just what you think. tart answering the questions others ask.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I am not playing the expert, I am not playing games. You have not answered my question about where in the Bible does it say Christians cannot drink alcohol. John 2 text makes it very clear that the wine is alcoholic, the MC makes it very clear the wine is alcoholic, it is about reading the text, the word used is found in Eph 5:18 and its meaning is very clear that it is alcohol.
Anonymous
yeah John McWhirter-Whitlock you really got NO Biblical case on Jn 2 – you have some room for drinking in Eph 5 and Tim who was sick in his stomach as Brett Dobbs pointed out BUT how a drinking person determine if the drinking person is drunk? This is like a demonized person determining they are demonized? Isara Mo William DeArteaga
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock sure it does .
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse John 2 actually does not make clear that the wine is alcoholic; does not make anything clear about its alcoholic substance except the comment that was better than the non-Jesus wine. BUT Jn 2 does make a very strong case that JESUS made the wine our brother is talking about
SO I have no problem with our brother drinking wine made by Jesus. I also strongly encouraged him to post a video where he pours pure clean water from Jordan in a great big stone jar, pray his secrete prayer – Jn2 allows him to pray to Merry too 🙂 and Michael Chauncey Melvin Harter Neil Steven Lawrence will be happy to join me via Zoom and watch the results – let’s do it I say. Enough theological talk – let the brother show his wine-making prayer and we can humbly learn from him
Anonymous
Troy Day
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey yes? ZOOM after church today?
Anonymous
Troy Day sure I’ll zoom in.
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey still waiting for John McWhirter-Whitlock
Anonymous
Troy Day I do have a case for John 2. Unfortunately it does not fit with your opinion
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse in addition to the other solid defenses of what’s plainly written the scripture…the chief master of the banquet explicitly compared it to the wind that had been consumed just prior and stated it was superior. A wine critic would not state that about grape juice.
Anonymous
Len Sterling you are speculating. The drink was made by God and was not tarnished by the curse of the fall. The stewart had never tasted anything like that. Nobody ever had except maybe Adam and Eve. We don’t know if it was alcoholic. Go and read my posts. The Greek says a drink made from grapes and does not specify alcoholic or not. We must stop the guessing and be true to the text. Len Sterling can you tell me where you got your Greek training as John McWhirter-Whitlock refuses.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse you’re adding suppositions to try and make the alcohol v. non alcohol debate align with the biblical account.
And, if you’re questioning my qualifications to read the New Testament based on where I may have received my Greek training at…you’re just trying to shift the debate Im toward trying to discredit my ability to read.
So sir, I’d ask you this…please educate us in how you read the scripture, without adding assumptions that aren’t in the biblical text, based on the original language.
Where’d you acquire your knowledge of the Greek language sir?
Anonymous
Len Sterling no you are changing the subject as you can’t prove one way or another if it was alcohol. You have to play the game better if you are going to fool anyone. It is all guesswork as the bible is silent one way or another. I acquired it at college, seminary and then my terminal degree at another seminary. All academically distinguished. Plus I have taken other courses under recognized experts. Now what about you? Don’t change the subject just say where you learned and then prove it was alcoholic. Don’t go by traditional stories or guesswork, but prove it. I say it can’t be proven one way or another. I do say the Stewart at the feast had never tasted such drink as all he had ever had was wine from the vine and not created buy the Lord.
Anonymous
Len Sterling it wasn’t preserved as the Lord just made it. Did you read the Biblical account with understanding.
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock I think John Mushenhouse properly echoed what I tried to tell you in the morning. If you really HOLD the BIBLE as your standard, pray and drink only what GOD makes out of water after your prayer. If GOD does not make it nothing else than water you should probably NOT force your legalistic stance on others and simply admit you have a drinking problem. That’s really ALL brother
Anonymous
I think you pointed the BEST ones Dr. John Mushenhouse Colin/Brown, Lidell/Scott, Bill Mounce, Zodhiates , Wuest, Vincent, Robertson and Kittel – I love Kittel, Zodhiates (was my neighbor in Chattanooga) , Wuest is simply classic – many ppl dont know he’s got 4 volumes not just 3 🙂 You skipped Vine’s which I also tell my students NOT to use if they dont want 1 letter grade taken from their exegesis score and we can also add my favorite Thyer (that is now too online) and of course Danker’s BDAG which many dont even have (I got the first 3 editions) but a regular Joe would not pay attention to the point you make – bottom line – some ppl JUST wanna drink brother
Anonymous
Troy Day No the Bible doesn’t say Christians cannot drink alcohol. You have consistently failed to provide Bible verses to support your own opinion. I do not have a drinking problem. You are legalistic. You are denying Jesus turning water into alcoholic wine. Your stance is based I suspect a person who was an alcoholic who found Jesus and has become anti alcohol. Therefore your stance is based on your personal experience rather than the Bible
Anonymous
John McWhirter-Whitlock hey where is the video where you pray and water turns into wine? we are still waiting
Anonymous
Jesus’ Divine Activity
Mark’s Gospel states that Jesus “went (ἔρχομαι; ἔρχεται) to them, walking upon the sea (περιπατῶν ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης; peripaton epì tes thálassa)” (6:48). Each of the highlighted Greek terms also appears when God questions Job as to what he knows about the cosmos. The Lord alludes to divine activity at creation, asking, “Have you went upon (ἦλθες… ἐπὶ) the springs of the sea (θαλάσσης; thalásses) or walked (περιεπάτησας; periepátesas) in the recesses of the deep?” (Job 38:16 LXX). The narrative earlier in Job affirms that God had traversed the oceans before humans were created, saying of God, “You alone stretched out the heavens and trampled on the waves of the sea” (Job 9:8).
Anonymous
what happened here Brett Dobbs John Mushenhouse Michael Chauncey did our dear brother produce his proof in a video ?
Anonymous
Troy Day I didn’t see a thing
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey no problem – we can wait a bit for the proof (no punt indented 🙂 )
Anonymous
Does this mean your stance is that Christians who drinks ANY alcohol are somehow fake Christians…not saved by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross of Calvary….?
Anonymous
Len Sterling I answered you several times
FIRST ==>
I have expressed it many many times
You can read it here in the group discussions
or you can read it in my comments on the website
I am against drinking if this is what you ask
WHICH scripture are you asking about specifically ?
you did not respond with specific scripture
THEN I asked you again ==>
Yes and there is over 500 comments to prove it Which scripture do you feel justifies your desire to drink?
You did not respond. Would you please supply your scriptura related to this OP and I will be MORE than happy to respond to you with John Mushenhouse and others. Specific scripture that YOU think justifies your drunkenness. I do not have BIBLE that supports drinking #sorry
Anonymous
Troy Day I never mentioned drunkenness, just an assumption on your part I suppose.
Big difference between some alcohol consumption and being a drunkard.
I won’t continue to dialog with you on this as I don’t want to be a stumbling block to you brother…abstinence is fine, just not biblically required for salvation.
…Shalom
Anonymous
the sin of Noah Philip Williams John Mushenhouse that brought many others sins on him after the flood AND will do the same to many like Len Sterling who open the door for the devil to enter via alcoholic spirits
Anonymous
Troy Day …Matthew 7:1-3.
Anonymous
Len Sterling Do not judge, or you too will be judged
No one here in this group is judging you
EXCEPT your own consciousness
WHAT other Bible verse related to OP
do you need to point out for discussion ?
John Mushenhouse your search of the Greek was thorough and complete but seems like another remedy is been sought after here. Let’s help our dear brother Len out if we can of course
Anonymous
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-french-l-arrington-the-bible-and-alcoholic-beverages-beer-wine-liquors-and-total-abstinence/
Troy Day
it is VERY VERY simple John Mushenhouse Philip Williams real christians dont drink ; I am not sure what kind of christians drink Link Hudson Stan Wayne ?
The Corinthians drank real wine… to excess AND SINNED – nobody in the NT drunk real wine without sinning Not even a SIP. The idea of believers social drinking is ridiculous and Biblical indefensible… the idea that the Bible allows social drinking is foolish
What about Pharmekeia? Peter Vandever may ask as wine and spirits fall into the category of such occult mixture Billy Monroe Poff Daniel Denmark
This Greek word is interesting. As noted, it is used for medicine, drugs, or spells. The purpose of many drugs used for depression is to put you under a spell or alter your thinking. They is what they are designed to do. In some cases, this is needed. However, most times it is actually going against the purpose of God for the person.
The word is used twice. Once in Galatians and once in Revelation.
In Galatians 5:19-21 we see the first use. It is related to the use of witchcraft. Paul was very careful to make sure it knew it was related to many other issues of the heart.
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
In the midst of sexual immorality, drunkeness, hatred, selfishness and envy is pharmekeia. You can read this as “The acts of the flesh are obvious…. fornication, getting drunks, taking medicines, doing drugs….” Anything that alters the mind is of the evil one. It is the work of the flesh and inspired by the evil one.
Troy Day
Link Hudson Paul did not rebuke them for drinking wine. ????
You may be correct here bro Link. Paul never mentions the word wine in 1 or 2 Cor – You cannot find a SINGLE verse in in 1 or 2 Cor where wine is mentioned 🙂Once again you seem to be re-writing the whole BIBLE to fit your fake doctrines again
Troy Day
oops John Mushenhouse Peter Vandever our Stan Wayne cant find the word wine in Corinthians either WHAT NOW? Roscoe Barnes III ?
Anonymous
Why not, Jesus did🤔…aren’t we to emulate Jesus in all manor of things? Is it a personal choice or yet another symptom of demonic conservatism? Just thoughts
Anonymous
Jeffrey Snyder prove that Jesus did
Anonymous
Troy Day what form of oinos did they use at Passover? Today all Jews especially messianic Jews use kosher wine (Mogen David/manischewitz). Back to you Troy 😊
Anonymous
Troy Day in Matt. 11:19 Jesus was accused of being a drunkard. He can’t be accused of this if He didn’t drink alcohol.
Anonymous
Tony Schneider you mean just like being accused of having a demon? He can’t be accused of this if He didn’t have a demon, right? John Mushenhouse @John McWhirter-Whitlock Junior Beasley Michael Chauncey @Len Sterling
Anonymous
Troy Day He was accused of having a demon but He was also accused of being a drunkard. Could we stick with that accusation? Why was He accused of that?
Gn 27:25 – Isaac brought Jacob wine, and he drank
Dt 14:23-26 – spend money on sheep, wine, & strong drink
Prov 20:1 – wine is a mocker, unwise to be led astray by it
Eccl 9:7 – drink your wine with merry heart – God approves
Is 25:6 – God will provide feast of rich foods & choice wines
Is 5:11 – woe to those who rise early & run after strong drink
Is 5:22 – woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine
Luke 7:33-34 – son of man eats & drinks: behold glutton & drunk
Jn 2:2-10 – miracle at Cana: water turned into good wine
Eph 5:18 – do not get drunk with wine, that is debauchery
1Tim 5:23 – drink a little wine for the sake of your stomach
Anonymous
Tony Schneider YES – OT
NO – NT
you are missing KEY verses Jesus referred to social drunks
These 4 verses are easily dismissible per you hypothesis
They do not prove that YOU can too drink even socially :
Luke 7:33-34 – son of man eats & drinks: behold glutton & drunk
Jn 2:2-10 – miracle at Cana: water turned into good wine
Eph 5:18 – do not get drunk with wine, that is debauchery
1Tim 5:23 – drink a little wine for the sake of your stomach
I can debunk them 1by1 if you prefer …
Anonymous
not sure what form of onions you are using lately Jeffrey Snyder but as raised cogop you and Philip Williams should know well the text of the Communion clearly states
THIS CUP
not wine, pepsi or however you want to see it there
Anonymous
Troy Day do you believe that Our Lord condemned alcohol consumption?
Anonymous
Show me in the Bible where it says that.
Anonymous
teach us what the Bible says John Mushenhouse Neil Steven Lawrence
Anonymous
Troy Day – you’re the one who said it. Show us in the Bible where it says this.
Anonymous
Ben Bottke yes was the one who said: Show us in the Bible!
Anonymous
Troy Day – are you going to show us?
Anonymous
Ben Bottke I just did – do you have a theological answer from the BIBLE ? https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-french-l-arrington-the-bible-and-alcoholic-beverages-beer-wine-liquors-and-total-abstinence/
Anonymous
Troy Day – where is it in the Bible? Shouldn’t you be able to answer that if you’re telling people it tells us Christians should not drink?
Anonymous
Ben Bottke I definitely can do that – the BIBLE is pretty clear
How were part of the revival and teaching you describe before
but still being a social drinker yourself ? John Mushenhouse
Anonymous
Troy Day that Dr French link is taking me in circles. but isn’t that the article I read recently where he said that in biblical times they drank actual wine that was heavily diluted? If so that is evidence against your thesis not for it. Both wine and water still exist and they still do diluted in some places– for example Italian Farmers working in the fields.
Anonymous
Link Hudson not sure what you’ve read as I dont really follow you
Anonymous
Okay 🤣🤣🤣🤣
You do understand prohibition was a American thing right?
In a lot of countries they get out of Church go down to the pub with the preacher order a pint and talk about how glorious the service was.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley nope
Anonymous
Troy Day
Wow you need to brush up on Church culture and leave American out of it.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley yeas I am aware church culture in America has turned into drunk culture HENCE this wonderful discussion with John Mushenhouse
Anonymous
Troy Day
Actually it reversered in the 20s
Anonymous
I disagree. Doesn’t say that in the Bible. Where are the verses to back up your claim?
Anonymous
Derek Godfrey prove it!
Anonymous
Troy Day he doesn’t have to your the one making false claims
Anonymous
Junior Beasley what is the false claim made? you silly little drunk?
Anonymous
I searched Colin/Brown, Lidell/Scott, Bill Mounce, Zodhiates , Wuest, Vincent, Robertson and Kittel. It is a drink made from grapes. While the use of the word outside of the bible usually speaks of a fiery pagan drink, does the NT especially John 2 says that. What happened in John was that never before had such wine been made as God made it and made it from water or dumping the water, He made it out of nothing. Do we have such today? No. It is made out of grapes today. I don’t see Jesus doing that process in John 2. If you read it He had the servants bring water pitchers to Him and after He made the wine to the chief steward.- our Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour turned the water into wine, not by his touch, or even by his word, but by his will. This is the omnipotence of God. No prophet or apostle ever did such a thing. He who can turn ordinary water into extraordinary wine, by a mere act of his will, is the omnipotent God. By filling the pots to the “brim” with water, Jesus left no room for any alternative explanations for this miracle. This sentence shows the magnitude of the miracle. The water had turned to wine by this point.
This wine was not from the vine and thus not effected from the curse due to the fall. It was one of a kind and never to be duplicated. The bible doesn’t say it was alcohol only that it was great. You can’t use this one of a kind wine to try to prove that our plant wine is alcohol or that it is ok to drink wine. Jesus made a separate type wine. You or any winery can’t make that. Accept no substitutes.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I think you pointed the BEST ones Dr. John Mushenhouse Colin/Brown, Lidell/Scott, Bill Mounce, Zodhiates , Wuest, Vincent, Robertson and Kittel – I love Kittel, Zodhiates (was my neighbor in Chattanooga) , Wuest is simply classic https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-french-l-arrington-the-bible-and-alcoholic-beverages-beer-wine-liquors-and-total-abstinence/ Ken Van Horn
Anonymous
Troy Day do you think Jesus turned water into miraculous wine for the Last Supper? I cannot find that in my Bible. What about the food and drink that Jesus consumed with other people that he was criticized for– after which is critics criticized him exaggerating and accusing of it being a glutton and a wine pepper–was that miraculously made? what does it matter if it was or was not
Anonymous
well you tell us now Link Hudson
When you partake from your wine
Do you turn it from water through prayer
LIKE Jesus did – or you just get it from the store?
You must be some walking on the water miracle maker from which
Neil Steven Lawrence John Mushenhouse Brett Dobbs shall learn too
Anonymous
Troy Day let every man speak truth to his neighbor. I already told you the online wine I consume is wine cooked into sauces and if I am overseas, if the church I attend happens to use (or mix in) ‘real wine’ I will partake.
Do you ever drink cough syrup or eat shrimp scampi?
Anonymous
Link Hudson No. But you didnt answer my question again
Where in the NT says Communion is with wine? Chapter + verse pls
Or is this just your personal assumption based on private interpretation?
Anonymous
Link Hudson as DR Melvin Harter has rightly stated for your consideration :
“There were two specific questions on every CoG ministerial examination; namely, (1) are there any CoG Teachings that you disagree with? And (2) Do you agree with ALL the Teachings of the CoG and will you abide by each one of them? Of course, you must answer these questions correctly if you are to be granted ministerial license in the CoG. If you failed to correctly answer either of these two particular questions, then you were denied acceptance.”
Anonymous
Troy Day I never applied in the COG denomination so it doesn’t affect me directly. Not drinking is part of the ‘Practical Commitments’ as I recall. So a non-drinker who thinks reerotalerism is Biblically indefensible might be able to agree with that, but I would have to look into it.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse social drunk defender Tony Schneider has posted the following 4 verses defending his social drinking. We have addressed these before BUT I dont mine repeating for Ben Bottke like I do for all my failing students
Luke 7:33-34 – son of man eats & drinks: behold glutton & drunk
was a false accusation – in the same manner he was accused of having demons
Jn 2:2-10 – miracle at Cana: water turned into good wine
pray for your water – if it turns into wine we will ALL drink with you Link Hudson including after he didnt sign with ORU
Eph 5:18 – do not get drunk with wine, that is debauchery
legally there is NO option of drinking but not get drunk
The BIBLE does not leave it to the drunk to determine if they are drunk
alcohol test will show you are SO MANY % drunk after you drink
Of course on the judgment day you can argue with GOD you were not completely drunk but just 11% drunk after 1 beer Philip Williams and that will put you with ALL other 11% saved
1Tim 5:23 – drink a little wine for the sake of your stomach
This is a special verse Isara Mo William DeArteaga ppl who believe this verse and drink bring a cruse upon their stomach and open their stomach for demonic attacks
Anonymous
Joseph D. Absher what better way to replace TRUMP than argue BIBLE theology with social drunks early in the morning 🙂 Melvin Harter
Anonymous
Troy Day drunkenness is a sin. I never said nor suggested being socially or private drunkenness was acceptable. I thought better of you than to say something that someone else did not say or even suggest.
Anonymous
Tony Schneider socially or private drunkenness is NOT acceptable. But you are making a good point on private drinking here as well
Anonymous
Troy Day are you against having a beer or a glass of wine but not getting drunk about it?
Anonymous
Tony Schneider are you saying you can have a joint or two but not get high?
Anonymous
Tony Schneider are you saying you can sleep around with a woman or two but not commit adulatory ? Like some poligamists believed in times?
Anonymous
Troy Day that’s not what I’m saying. Can you answer my question?
Anonymous
Tony Schneider I just did – can you answer BOTH of mine ?
Anonymous
Troy Day when did you answer it?
Anonymous
rightly above? where did you answer my 2 questions? I’ll wait!
and I do understand if you do not wish to answer them
Anonymous
YES Link Hudson it has been indeed my experience that real Bible believers stay away from drinks period Especially the ones really seeking after the holiness of the LORD
WHEN I wrote “legally there is NO option of drinking but not get drunk” and you asked
<<>>
I would like to rightly answer that since you tried to make a silly point here:
YES this has been my experience from working as chaplain for over 45 yrs and riding with many patrols in multiple counties. Every cop will tell you after 2 beers the person is drunk – its just a matter of HOW drunk ; there is NO law that can tell you a smaller person takes a pint. A bigger takes 2 pints AND Jeffrey Snyder takes a gallon or 2
BUT theologically as John Mushenhouse rightly asserted there is NO Bible verse in the NT that can defend your social drinking
NOT in the NT –
not from a vine as Jesus stated until NEW in the Kingdom
not stronger drink
drunks do not enter heaven –
none
You can post ANY NT verse and know well I can dismantle your weak argument in seconds just from the GREEK HOWEVER I see a deeper problem with your defending social drinking after talking with you for a long time and since you asked if this is my experience or thinking I will give it to you rightly divided by the BIBLE
Being American Counseling Association for a long time / and chaplaincy as stated I can also observe assert and rightly suspect you did not want to lie and be caught drunk on the ORU oath. No one would want that to happen to anyone. Get help!!!
Anonymous
Troy Day 3 Gallons 😎….Welches wine is my favorite, especially if you get the concentrate and only add 1/2 the water…Good for the stomach too
Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=6838700992843763&set=p.6838700992843763&type=3
Anonymous
Jeffrey Snyder figures
Troy Day
YES @followers John Mushenhouse Junior Beasley