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Christopher Hart | PentecostalTheology.com
Charles Page [03/09/2016 10:04 AM]
Believers with addictive personalities are the weaker brethren among us and we who are without addictive personalities have to consider the weak.
Carl Murphy [03/09/2016 1:44 PM]
I don’t drink, but I think it is more a question of the weaker brother. I do not think someone that wants wine with a meal or an after dinner drink is bound for hell.
Troy Day [03/09/2016 4:13 PM]
Carl Is drugs a question of the weaker brother too?
Carl Murphy [03/09/2016 4:41 PM]
I take drugs every day
Pages: 1 2
Charles Page
Moderation
Rick Slotboom
Let me add some interesting historical facts for consideration:
Rabbinical literature teaches that refusing lawful enjoyments (one of which that explicitly mentioned is drinking wine) is a sin for which you have to give an account at the last judgment (3 cups being mentioned as max). So in orthodox judaism NOT drinking wine is sinful.
Historical churches (catholic, orthodox, protestant) have always used alcoholic wine during eucharist/ Lord’s Supper (only recently allowing for exceptions in certain cases). In North Western Europe nobody even drank wine before the coming of Christianity. The church introduced the drinking of wine because of the eucharist, and then people started to plant vineyards. Many monasteries brew Near. In the Reformation era most protestant pastors in Germany didn’t earn enough money to make a living, so in those days almost every evangelical pastor would brew bear to make a living. Martin Luther’ s wife Catharina von Bora also brewed bear. Pentecostals and evangelicals in certain countries like Germany or the Netherlands have no problem with moderate drinking (often not even knowing that Americans hold different opinions). USA developed a different tradition a few centuries ago, due to different historical circumstances (the abuse of alcohol on the frontier and in big cities was rampant in way that it was not in other nations). So how to deal with it? Depends on the people and the historical/ cultural situation. Avoid giving offense or temptation to those who are prone to addiction). Individually/ in private you are free, if you can deal properly with that liberty
and feel free in conscience.
Dennis Lear
The church has much greater things to deal with for this to take up any portion of its time. Personally, I agree with the stance of this great Church of God which is none. Takes a pig to make hog. History shows us the same thing happened to other, once holiness churches. They started spending more time in questioning holiness and more time losing their focus of pleasing God.
Jon Ray
There can be no moderation when it comes to temptation!
Travis Brown
To drink!
Hunter D. McLain
Alcohol is a scourge to the world. It is the number one drug. You cannot claim to be a Christian and drink alcohol outside of it’s use as an ingredient in medicine. The Bible clearly condemns it. God Commands Holiness, you can’t be Holy whole being defiled with alcohol.
Travis Brown
So all the times God gave alcohol to Israel as a blessing we should jut ignore it?
Hunter D. McLain
He never gave them alcohol.
Travis Brown
So the first miracle? Let me guess it was just grape juice?
Hunter D. McLain
It was. Wine simply means fruit if the vine, it doesn’t mean it is fermented.
Travis Brown
No… just no.
Travis Brown
I understand if you have convictions against it but it’s wrong to say that anyone who drink alcohol isn’t a Christian.
Hunter D. McLain
It’s a drug. Can you do pot and be a Christian?
Travis Brown
If you can without getting high. Can you drink a beer without being drunk?
Hunter D. McLain
You can’t. It’s impossible. Both of those things are ingredients in medicine. You can’t drink a whole beer and not be effected.
Travis Brown
You’re kidding right?
Hunter D. McLain
No. I’m amazed that there are Pentecostals who think drinking is okay.
Travis Brown
I’m not Pentecostal. (Raised Pentecostal but recently realized that sola scriptura out ranked experience.) and if you can’t drink a beer don’t drink, but don’t you dare call the salvation of brothers in question for drinking in moderation.
Hunter D. McLain
The Bible is clear that nothing unholy will enter The Kingdom of Heaven, and The Bible is clear that alcohol is unholy, wicked and sinful. I call their Salvation into question because The Bible does.
Thomas Jackson
Hunter McLain do you know the penalty for adding to or taking away from the Word. If you have a personal thing against alcohol, that is your thing. But when you ascribe that to God and His Word that is quite another. Have you ever heard “Nothing is unclean of itself.”? That is in the Bible while what you say is not. It goes on to say if something is unclean to a man. TO HIM it is unclean. That doesn’t mean you transfer your unbiblical hatred of alcohol to the Word. Folks need to start understanding that God doesn’t cease to be God if we drink. Or commit adultery. Or commit gay acts. Or do drugs. Those prohibitions do not limit God AT ALL. All of those behaviors hurt US and so God says “don’t.” When it comes to drink Jesus would not have provided the wine at the wedding if it was unholy. Stop affixing your 20th century church views to what the Bible actually says. They drank wine because it was one of the things they had. They had water, milk, wine and possibly some other fruit juices. First century Christians had no prohibition against alcohol because Jesus didn’t and they had no Hunter D. McLain to tell them Jesus couldn’t be a member of His own church because He drank wine. Let us reread our Bibles and stop putting human words in God’s Word.
Travis Brown
Where does it say that? I’ll agree with drunkenness but alcohol as a whole?
Vlad Stepanov
Cough syrup has alcohol.
Travis Brown
And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.
Deuteronomy 14:24-26 ESV
http://bible.com/59/deu.14.24-26.ESV
God legit tells Israel to buy strong drink if their appetite craves it and then to consume it to his glory lol
James H. Boyd
Would lightning strike me if I were to drink a beer or a glass of wine? Probably not, but I have still always felt it was something I was better off without.
David Lewayne Porter
Is it a PERSONAL weight to us concerning our testimony and spiritual lives?
Heb 12:1
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
We don’t just lay aside sin;
We also lay aside weights.
Be blessed.
Jon Ray
The scorch of drinking and sipping pastors and preachers is yet to blow out of proportions in modern day neo – charismata http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/newspring-removes-perry-noble-due-to-alcoholism/
Brenda Smith
Just be like Jesus…Matt 26:29 ..and let it be for the first time to taste wine at that time with Him. Then how can you go wrong? That’s my take…and I’m sticking with it!!
Jon Ray
There are at least 75 SCRIPTURE WARNINGS AGAINST DRINKING of ALCOHOL http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/tot-75-scripture-warnings-against-drinking-of-alcohol/
David Lewayne Porter
And Several more allowing it.
So then, Romans 14 (as you can by faith).
The scriptures do say (don’t be drunk/drunken) by wine, strong or mixed drink.
Now let’s remove the cultural stigma of western civilizations,,,,
Christians elsewhere that drink wine like water due to their impure water supplies that do not get drunk and think nothing of it (they are well within their biblical rights, liberty, and guidelines).
So then you gonna tell them by the entirety of Scripture they are to be a Teetotaler?
You cant.
Drunkenness is the sin.
The question would be, is drinking a weight for that individual as referenced in Heb 12:1.
Jon Ray
Good question! We’ve given before these 50 Reasons Why not to Drink Alcohol #ToT http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/50-reasons-why-i-dont-drink-alcohol-ourcog-tot/
David Lewayne Porter
Yeah,
Even though I am personally a Teetotaler, I can’t discount the verses that allow it.
Luke 7:33-35
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! But wisdom is justified of all her children.
(Just so we can be sure what John did not drink, Luke 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb).
Luke 5:39
No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better. (Old wine – aged, seasoned, fermented).
Ephesians 5:18
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
1 Timothy 3:8
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Titus 2:3
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
1 Peter 4:3
For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
Here is a thought
Romans 14:21
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
(If wine is grape juice, how does grape juice offend anyone?)?
Or this is my favorite
Vss 20&21
1 Corinthians 11:17-34
Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper.
**For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?**
or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.
How are you drunken off of grape juice (and this was at church gatherings and fellowship)..
Blessings
Ricky Grimsley
I agree with David Lewayne Porter
John Conger
Yeah but it doesn’t matter. People’s minds are usually made up. Doesn’t matter what bible says
David Lewayne Porter
Agreed
Jon Ray
Seen too many good Christian folk lost to alcohol…
David Lewayne Porter
Agreed
Travis Brown
And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.
Deuteronomy 14:24-26 ESV
http://bible.com/59/deu.14.24-26.ESV
God legit tells Israel to buy strong drink if their appetite craves it and then to consume it to his glory lol
David Lewayne Porter
But not to get drunk
Travis Brown
I 100% agree!
Jon Ray
The drinking argument without getting drunk is about as solid as doing drugs without getting high. Stands no chance in a court of law. And I personally dont see how anyone could use it before the court of God!
John Conger
How is that comparable? Can you ever use a drug without getting high? No can you ever drink without getting drunk? Of course. Once again. When someone’s mind is made up facts are irrelevant
David Lewayne Porter
Then Jon Ray
You willingly over look some scriptures in favor of your personal beliefs?
Jon Ray
Yeah – I dont think so!
John Conger
Let me ask everyone in this thread, what are your thoughts about medicine that alters your consciousness? Oxytocin, morphine, etc all have legitimate medical uses. Are they a sin to use? What about someone in hospice? Would you deny your loved one morphine?
Travis Brown
Don’t ask for consistency in this thread. They ignore text that clearly states God gives strong drinks as a blessing by saying but don’t get drunk. If someone gets drunk off one drink then don’t drink!
Charles Page
if it takes four glasses to get drunk then only drink one or two. Don’t drink to excess.
David Lewayne Porter
What about medicines that contain alcohol?
Charles Page
the sop Jesus took contained a solidier’s narcotic
Charles Page
Jesus rejected the first offer of medication on the cross and then accepted the second offer at the end.
Jon Ray
How did one of the most powerful healing preachers AA Allen become a drunk? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/aa-allen-was-a-mighty-man-of-the-spirit-but/
Charles Page
alcoholism stems from a personality disorder, an addictive behavior syndrone
Travis Brown
Charles Page or idolatry.
David Lewayne Porter
How, he did not heed the scriptural admonition to “not be drunk”.
That is how, it was that simple.
He over looked Romans 14 – that by faith with a clear conscience.
He over looked Heb 12:1 the sin and every weight.
The brother had more than one issue.
Jon Ray
Thank you FB for picking up Seymore’s picture to go with AA Allen. Can anyone in this group quote a single line by Seymore? (without looking it up or google ???)
Charles Page
Tee-totalism does not have a Biblical base only a base in prohibition.
Jon Ray
William Branham was born in Berksville, Kentucky, in dire poverty. At the age of 5, he heard “a voice” who directed him to abstain from coffee, smoking and alcohol. This disembodied voice was later given credit for his unusual healing powers by William himself
Travis Brown
Well good for him. Now scripture.
David Lewayne Porter
Romans 14, and the brother did well to adhere to the voice.
Yet he could not press everyone to be that way (according to the same set of Scriptures).
Jon Ray
AA Allen was another mighty preacher who ended up in #SIN and so would many others who do not practice the way of holiness!
Travis Brown
So a preacher sinned and that’s why we have to totally abstain?
Jon Ray
Please read carefully before question openly without having much Biblical backing http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/tot-75-scripture-warnings-against-drinking-of-alcohol/
Charles Page
If you are not going to drink then men should have short hair and women should not bob their hair nor be arrayed in costly adornment.
Jon Ray
Clean shaved too. None of these sin full beards
David Lewayne Porter
Clean shaved?
And yet our Saviour
Isaiah 50:6
I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
John Conger
There are many good good reasons not to drink. But that doesn’t make it sin. Doesn’t the scripture warn about the perils of marriage? Should we abstain completely from marriage? Lol
Charles Page
Many Pentecostal preachers have the same personality disorder as AA Allen. They are in as great a need of healing as Allen himself.
Charles Page
abstaining does not bring about a healing it just covers the sickness.
Travis Brown
Again context matters. Most of those are talking about drunkenness. I condemn drunkenness but alcohol has a proper context. Such as communion.
Jon Ray
A scripture to back this one particularly would be so very nice at this point in the discussion
Varnel Watson
“I say nay unto thee sayeth…” Tony Conger Ricky Grimsley
Varnel Watson
Moderating the spirit? I think not…
Ricky Grimsley
I feel the scriptures teach that drunkenness is a sin but having a drink isnt. I personally dont have the desire to drink but i do believe that Jesus turned the water into actual wine. It certainly isnt profitable for our christian walk.
Varnel Watson
No one can moderate the devil. If we could there would have been no need for Jesus to ever die on a cross on our behalf!
Rick Slotboom
My chemistry teacher taught me many years ago that if you drink more than twenty liters of water it’s poisonous, and the same oxygen that you need to lives ultimately makes your body age and wil kill you. So by your own logic water and oxygen are also the evil. Aristotle already taught that every virtue is a middle between Two extremes.
Charles Page
Jesus moderated the devil
Chained him to the pit
Varnel Watson
I have to agree with Hunter D. McLain It’s a drug. Can you do pot and be a Christian? I’m too amazed that there are Pentecostals who think drinking is okay.
Charles Page
Jesus turned water into a drug
Ricky Grimsley
If you are gonna use the “its a drug” argument, be prepared to eat or drink caffeine or take medicines, since they are also drugs. Dont have surgery with anesthesia etc.
Charles Page
You could use pot and be a Christian
Ricky Grimsley
Is it any different than christians using xanax?1 Timothy 5:23 KJVS
[23] Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.
Vlad Stepanov
We use pots. Lots of them. We mainly cook food in them.
Alcohol is a drug, and so is caffeine, cough syrup, pain pills…many things.
Tony Conger
I’m a firm believer that altering your conscience with substances for recreation is wrong
Charles Page
Do you drink coffee?
Tony Conger
That’s not altering your conscience but no I don’t
Charles Page
I’ll be having a glass of wine this evening
Will my conscience be altered?
Charlie Robin
Make sure it meets the Biblical requirements i.e.(1) Power water in glass (2) Pray over it (3) Wait until it turns into wine. No other way is Biblical and God would not have you use it David Lewayne Porter
Charles Page
If I drink a glass of wine God will disapprove?
Charlie Robin
Is it for your stomach ache?
Charles Page
To my health
Charlie Robin
Noah had a little wine one day. It didnt work to well…
Tony Conger
No doubt
Charles Page
Charlie Robin
Noah passed out drunk
Charlie Robin
Yeah, a little drinking dont work for lots of people
Charles Page
think Noah had an addictive personality?
Tony Conger
I doubt Noah had a drink in moderation. Plus it wasn’t against the law
Charles Page
If he drank after the flood don’t you think he drank before the flood. I’ll bet there were days he got so drunk he couldn’t work on the ark!
Charlie Robin
Moderation drinking is subject of alteration thinking
Charles Page
Charlie Robin what is alteration thinking.
Charlie Robin
is what you get with moderation drinking before you pass out into sin sinking
Charles Page
Charlie Robinyou are trying to enforce man made rules. stems from the age of prohibition.
Charlie Robin
These were already enforced by John and Paul in the big black book you sold on ebay
Charles Page
Charlie RobinYou think!
Charlie Robin
John: Drink only wine Jesus turned from water
Paul: Drink wine only for your stomach ache
Jesus: Dont drink it until new in the Kingdom
NT rightly divided – it’s all there…
Tony Conger
Jesus Didnt say that. come on Thats dishonest
Charlie Robin
Matthew 26:29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.
Vlad Stepanov
he was referring to himself
Charlie Robin
WWJD? Go and do the same! WWJD?
Tom Steele
This video is an interesting message to consider on this topic. While the group that put it together seems to be for drinking (in moderation), around the 10:07 point in the video they do a side-by-side with Scriptures for and against drinking. They then provide a chart that shows, of the verses that talk about wine/alcohol, about 16.6% are neutral, 25.7% are against and 58.7% are “for”. Here’s the thing, while there is not a single verse that outright commands against drinking (unlike such things as eating pork or other unclean things, of which Scripture calls an abomination and says that the Messiah will destroy those who do so when He returns). With that said, it is clear from what is presented in this video between the 10:07 mark and the 10:42 mark that there is enough support to both sides to create a certain uncertainty and prohibit the ability to draw a solid and absolute conclusion one way or the other. Christians who oppose drinking often use the ideology toward those in favor, “If you (the supporter of drinking) are right, and I am wrong, then it won’t matter and I (the opposer) will simply make it to heaven without enjoying the experience of drinking alcohol. On the other hand, if I (the opposer) am right, and you (the supporter) are wrong, it creates the POSSIBILITY that only one of us will be granted access to heaven.” The “possibility” being the fact that if drinking is a violation of Scripture, this would make is a sin and thus creating the potential that the result of drinking, even in moderation, is eternal damnation in hell. For anything that there is even a small possibility that the Scripture condemns a particular action to the point of being sentenced to eternity in hell, it becomes wisdom to stay as far from that thing as possible. Unless it can be shown absolutely conclusively from Scripture that God WANTS us to drink (alcohol) and has INSTRUCTED us to drink (alcohol), then I must conclude and contend that a Believer should abstain from any and all consumption of alcohol, with the possible only exception being as used for medical purposes (as supported by Paul’s message to Timothy). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F9KeFyLBZQ
Morry Deed
So what verse does it say the messiah will destroy people for eating pork?
Tom Steele
Isaiah 66:17
Tom Steele
If you want details, I have a number of messages listed on this page, including one that explains the prophecies of Isaiah in depth. https://truthignitedministry.wordpress.com/
Morry Deed
Says nothing about the Messiah. I think you have blown the context out!
Tom Steele
Read the whole chapter, compare it to Revelation 19. The entire chapter of Isaiah 66 is clearly about the Second Coming.
Morry Deed
I wouldn’t build a theology on it.
Tom Steele
Again, please read through my work on the topic, all listed on the above link (with more articles coming soon). When you understand the relationship between such things as dietary and agricultural laws from the OT and the design of creation, you will know why it is so important to God. When you understand that violating the laws of clean diet according to Lev. 11 and Deut. 14, you will understand that they are the most violated of all commandments in Scripture, which will help to bring understanding to why it is such a serious issue with God. IF, and I will agree that it is an IF… IF eating unclean things like pork and shellfish is enough to be cast into hell over, then we must consider it against other acts of sin. There IS enough Scriptural basis to conclude that is is an IF, however, and that we cannot say absolutely one way or the other, which means it is something we should at least take seriously and treat as something that can lead to eternity in hell. So, let’s compare sinners, let’s compare pig-eaters with murderers. Assuming that unclean eating is a sin that leads to eternity in hell, if you had the opportunity to turn every murderer in the world today to repentance OR you had the opportunity to turn everyone who eats unclean animals, which would you choose? This is hypothetical, of course, we need to lead everyone we can to Christ, but for the sake of argument consider the scenario. If you were only given the power to save one group or the other, which would you choose? Considering which percentage of the world’s population are murderers and which are merely guilty of eating things God said not to eat, the choice should be easy. You would clearly win more people to Christ if you chose to lead everyone guilty of eating unclean things to the truth. We tend to look at “big sins” as those things that we have been conditioned to view as extremely immoral, like murder or rape. God sees all sin as equal, sin is sin, so in God’s eyes the “big sins” would be those sins that the majority of people are committing, which are usually those things that we perceive as “minor infractions, hardly worthy of judgment.” For such a long time the thinking within the body of Christ has been completely backwards. It’s time to reform our thinking, get back to the Word of God, view it from the perspective of the people who God spoke His Word through, the Hebrew people, from the language(s) they wrote in (Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic), and stop trying to interpret English Bibles with a 21st Century American perspective.
Morry Deed
I’m ex SDA & I don’t agree at all. Your entitled to your “grace of Christ” is not enough theology. Not for me bro.
Tom Steele
I’m not SDA, far from it.
Louise Cummings
Not to drink. I over heard someone telling about one church where they believed in moderation. She came in stumbling one Sunday. What I understood it happen pretty often. I came home that evening and was pray Lord bring us back to Holiness. You see moderation to me is an excuse. Some might stick. But most of the time it goes farther. I don’t believe Jesus made fermented drinks. But everyone to their own belief. But I came home and prayed and cried so much. And said Lord I didn’t know this was so much in our churches. Let’s please try to turn our churches and our Nation back to You.
Joseph D. Absher
“a little wine for Thy stomach sake” is not Tequila on Friday night, or Jack Daniels on Saturday, or a Bloody Mary on Sunday morning….
wade whittaker
What about Proverbs 31:6-7? I’m no theologian, but that sounds pretty clear-cut to me.
Isara Mo
Take a full glass of whisky, then take a full glass of water …that is what I call moderation.
This is like a scenario of flirting with a lady and not taking her to bed….As long as it is flirting, it is not sexual…that is the assumption.
Jesus said the moment you look at a woman lustfully you have already committed adultery…
I really can’t understand a “Christian” who takes a whiff of brandy or a puff of cigar or a sniff of cocaine… and say they have a relationship with God..
Anything which can alter our sobriety is not commendable in spirituality..
No wonder no major religion or spiritual discipline allows alcohol…
Why are people trying to twist scriptures to to fit their views, instead of letting the scriptures twist their views..?
Alcohol is X rated in heaven…
No drunkards shall inherit the kingdom doesn’t give the amount of ALLOWABLE ALCOHOL..
Charles Page
Why are people trying to twist scriptures to to fit their views, instead of letting the scriptures twist their views..?
Tara Sing Bhandari
Isara Mo I wonder Kingdom and Heaven is same or different ?
Isara Mo
Tara Sing Bhandari
KINGDOM
/ˈkɪŋdəm/
noun
1.
a country,
state,
or territory
RULED by
a king or queen.
OR you can call Kingdom : realm, domain, dominion, country, land, nation, state, sovereign state, province, territory; More
2.
the spiritual reign or authority of God.
1.Kingdom
2.Heaven
The two Kingdom and Heaven means or kingdom of heaven mean a spiritual realm(territory) ruled by God..who is a KING over all the kings and kingdoms(including earth).
Some call it the Kingdom of Heaven, others the Kingdom of God…but it is the same thing..
So by definition, kingdom and heaven have different meanings, but put together, ie the Kingdom of Heaven they mean a ” country” called “Heaven” which has a “KING”….
Tara Sing Bhandari
Can we build the kingdom on the earth/world ? as the children of God ,
If yes,
What are the tools to build the kingdom ?
Isara Mo
Tara Sing Bhandari
When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, one of the elements of that prayer was” Let your Kingdom come……”
The verse reads:
// Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Matthew 6:10 KJV//
The verse has two salient points:
1)Thy kingdom come..(Which means it was not there…)
2) Thy will be done on earth as it is HEAVEN..( absence of Gods will on earth)…
The disciples were supposed to pray for these two things, the coming of the Kingdom of God, and the execution of Gods will on earth…which they didnt…as far as I gather from the scriptures..unless you tell me otherwise.
However in the course of His ministry Jesus also said this” If I cast out demons by the finger of God then the Kingdom has come..”
This is the verse;
//But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Matthew 12:28 KJV//
In another occasion, Jesus told Peter ” I will give you the KEYS OF THE KINGDOM, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven…
In 1 John 3:8 it is written ” For this purpose the Son of God was revealed …TO DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL…
After saying all that (back to your question) you can see that the Kingdom of God has already come on earth(Jesus said that, and also because of the manifestation of Jesus..King of Kings, Lord of Lords as fully man and fully God, and because of the establishment of the church..ie a gathering of sons of God on earth…I can say the Kingdom has come..
Question: Has the Kingdom been established, built, or is it being built?..
Was it Gods purpose to build His Kingdom on earth??
Jesus said He will build a church(on earth) and the gates of hell shall not overcome it….
Was the church meant to be a tool to build a Kingdom of God on earth?..
I have avoided answering your question with obvious yes and no answers because your question has (for me) many un answered questions..
Lets hope someone versatile on Kingdom matters, especially the Kingdom of God, can come forward and answer your difficult question..
Have I helped in any way?
Varnel Watson
Charles Page speaks in tongues while sipping
Isara Mo
Troy Day
You know how loose the tongue becomes when loosed by wine?..
So loooose
David Asbury
Do not drink think on it fermented grape juice is rotten juice it has yeast leaven in it which represents sin new wine is fresh unfermented juice being drunk is walking in the flesh not the sprit if by the Holy Ghost you put to death the deeds of the body you shall live
Louise Cummings
Keep preaching it.
Varnel Watson
Tom Steele did Jews use fermented grape juice is rotten juice it has yeast leaven in it which represents sin ?
Charles Page
moderation…don’t get drunk!
Isara Mo
Charles Page
Yes, like Lot
Varnel Watson
BIBLE says nothing about no moderation Charles Page drink with moderation – NOT in the BIBLE Alan Smith
Varnel Watson
Earl Jensen NEW TESTAMENT ONLY – I challenge you to SHOW us even ONE New Testament reference that proves that NT Christians today can drink alcohol – not simply use but DRINK as social drinking which was your previous point I am calling out
John E Ollis
I choose NOT 2 drink
Varnel Watson
John E Ollis good choice of FREE WILL with a clear BIBLICAL base – Jesus wants is clear minded in 2020 and beyond
John E Ollis
Troy Day amen, only the wine of the Spirit
Varnel Watson
John E Ollis so says the BIBLE
John E Ollis
Troy Day o that God’s people would learn to be CONTINUALLY filled with the Spirit Eph.5:18
Varnel Watson
John E Ollis TRUE for this very reason I have challenged the theology of Earl Jensen above but he’s no where to be found as it seems today Maybe 2020 then
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Troy Day I don’t drink the personal choice but not because I think scripture forbids, I realize the kingdom will not come by meat or drink. Christians should not Be drunk with wine or strong drink. We should honor our bodies as the temple of God..
Varnel Watson
Michael Ellis Carter Jr. BUT scripture strictly forbids IT
Jeanette Elizondo
I agree Troy Day
Varnel Watson
Earl Jensen 1 Timothy 5:23 English Standard Version (ESV)
23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)
This verse properly exegeted RichardAnna Boyce is only a personal recommendation to a person who had a sickness and no good water – are you one such person? then the BIBLE does not permit you to drink wine except if your name is Timothy of Ephesus and STRONGLY FEEL Paul wrote you personally; in such case you may also want to consult a more professional medical help
Jeanette Elizondo
I agree Troy Day
John Broussard
Would anyone believe that Jesus would condone something that has destroyed so many families lives. Jesus would not condone not even in moderation. Moderation leads to overuse which leads to destruction.
Robert Cox
John Broussard
“Dancing leads to sex”
Just playing. I agree with you.
Varnel Watson
lots a people DRINK cause they like it in church Neil Steven Lawrence them ppl need to be sanctified fully
Kaylea McAlister
As a recovering addict i cant drink in moderation so i just dont drink. I think its like for a lot of people though, not only addicts/alcoholics. Some people are the type to have a glass or two with dinner or before bed. I think thats how Jesus drank it.
Shawn Dollar
I’m not aware of any direct New Testament doctrine regarding alcohol, except that we should not get drunk (Eph 5).
In dealing with believers in India, I’ve noticed that they all regard any alcoholic drinking as sinful (whenever it has come up). This is probably a situation like the eating of food sacrificed to idols in 1 Corinthians 8. We should not judge each other about it (also Rom 14), but we should also avoid offending or stumbling anyone.
Joe Absher
you loading up the threads today . what’s really going on?
Varnel Watson
this is a MUST for Pentecostal – oh how I hate me some with a passion the sipping preachers out there Real Christians do not drink ANY alcohol
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/real-christians-do-not-drink-any-alcohol/
Daniel J Hesse
Even sangria too?
Varnel Watson
well this is how we see this social drinking issue
Rick Slotboom
Not drinking alcohol is not pentecostal or evangelical. It’s American culture. In some countries like the Netherlands or Germany pentecostals or evangelicals have always allowed moderate drinking (which has roots in the birth of evangelical christianity in the 16th century in Germany). Even for pentecostal pastors here it’s not unusual to drink a glass of beer together. Many evangelicals here do not even know that Americans evangelicals/ pentecostals don’t drink. See my comment on the original website die some historical info from church history. American evangelicals had, in the past, good reasons to introduce abstention, due to historical reasons, but it’s not the bible and it’s not mandatory under all circumstances. The decision that you make in this depends on context and your personal condition.
Varnel Watson
are you aware of ANY early Pentecostals who drunk? I am not Rick Slotboom Pls give an example Puritans did not drink
Rick Slotboom
Troy Day here in the Netherlands Pentecostals and evangelicals have always done that, and probably in Germany too. I heard Andrew Wommack tell that during one of his sermons people were drinking big pints of bear during his preaching (which he respected as a cultural difference). I was shocked when I heard that, but when I asked my German uncle about it, he said that of the service is in a cafe, people feel they have the right to do that. Another good example would be Willem Ouweneel, a very conservative evangelical and charismatic professor of theology, for many years the leading evangelical theologian of our country, who told hoe, decades ago, he landed on a US airport and asked his American host to publicly order a bear. He didn’t even know that American evangelicals don’t do that. In fact, in the 16th century virtually every evangelical pastor would brew bear to make a living, so it’s a centuries old tradition for northwestern evangelicals. (Which is continued, for example by a protestant reverend who is a friend of mine and, together with his brother owns a brewery.) In countries like Belgium, Germany, and the Netherlands we also have a very long history of monasteries brewing bear. What we do see is that often if there is financial support from the USA (for example for theological schools) there is a demand on students for abstinence that nobody believes in.
Rick Slotboom
Even Martin Luther’ s wife, Catharina von Bora, brewed bear
Varnel Watson
Rick Slotboom that would have been veery very HARD for her to brew a bear Maybe she could have started with a rabbit
Rick Slotboom
It’s a bit difficult to find information on this topic with respect to the early Dutch Pentecostal movement in the Netherlands. For conservative reformed christians here, using alcohol has always been acceptable. I can ‘t find information about the early Dutch Pentecostal movement.
Rick Slotboom
If there has been a change, than it would probably have been on the heals of the charismatic movement in the traditional churches
Rick Slotboom
To be honest, before I heard about how Americans think about these things, I’d never even considered it. When I was an evangelical adolescent (and evangelicals didn’t have all these crazy liberal things of today back then) evangelical youths would drink naturally, but be very moderate, generally (certainly much more than liberal christians). It’s really a cultural difference.
Rick Slotboom
Troy Day O no, German women a very strong, especially in those days. Actually, I think Luther even Happened to call his wife ‘mister Kaete’ because she did so many things
Varnel Watson
Rick Slotboom THANK GOD most Pentecostals are NOT in the Netherlands then
Rick Slotboom
Troy Day I think you should learn to be a bit more respecful of believers in other cultures, especially on minor issues, rather than imperialistically to impose culture views without biblical foundation. I’ve researched Paul’s theology on Law and grace for more than one year full time with more than 6000pp. Scientific exegetical literature. Imposing your culture on christians of other cultures is an expression of the religious spirit. It’s sinful cultural imperialism of which you need to repent. I respect that people in the states are doing things differently, but I’m not living in the States. Or do you want to be holier than Jesus? He was also accused of drinking too much wine
Rick Slotboom
Luke 7:34
Rick Slotboom
Troy Day Without the Netherlands there wouldn’t even be a Pentecostal movement. Much of the Calvinist roots of America are from (especially) 17th century Dutch calvinism. The Glorious Revolution in Great Britain in 1688 which established Britain as a protestant country was led by Dutch stadhouder William who became King of England of the Anabaptist movement (Menno Simonsz) had its roots in the Netherlands. The baptist movement started in Amsterdam (those two being important roots of American Free church traditions like Pentecostalism). The First Great Awakening in the US A started in Dutch Reformed churches (rev Frelinhuysen). Without the Netherlands there would not even be an American revivalist tradition. And therefore no Pentecostal either. And Dutch Pentecostals are everywhere around the globe, and some of the most vibrant church planters. You don’t even know what you’re talking about.
Rick Slotboom
Almost everything that has made America Great was borrowed from the Netherlands, with some British improments: in religious liberty, business, christianity. What you are saying is just a ridiculous display of ignorance.
Rick Slotboom
I know the Anglosaxon evangelical world has a different tradition, but that’s just that: man made tradition (though for good reason, under certain historical circumstances).
Varnel Watson
aint Dutch Low Saxon are the Low Saxon dialects that are spoken in the northeastern Netherlands? The Amish dont drink either
Rick Slotboom
Troy Day There are certain Eastern parts of the Netherlands where they speak Low Saxon dialects, like where I grew up, but that has nothing to do with al alcohol. And as far as I know we don’t have Amish here.
Rick Slotboom
Just read that the Amish migrated to USA in 18th century. Before you asked I never even knew they had been here. And the’re a radical split off of the mennonites, not even representative of that group
Rick Slotboom
Troy Day Interestingly, in rabbinical literature, refusing lawful enjoyments (drinking wine is explicitly mentioned) is a sin for which you have to give an account at the last judgment (allowing Max 3 cups of wine). So maybe you are unconsciously living in sin (just teasing ?)
Rick Slotboom
Actually, here in North West Europe, before the coming of Christianity nobody even drank wine. They started planting vineyards because wine was necessarily for the Eucharist. So for many centuries, refusing to drink wine would almost equal refusing to be a christian.
Gerardo de Dominicis
Once an Argentinian Christian told this story: In Argentina, due to the big immigration they had from Germany and other European countries, the evangelicals tend to drink alcohol (beer and wine) is something normal there. When the American missionaries arrived in Argentina they were shocked seeing that evangelicals (even pastors) use to drink alcohol. The prohibition of drinking alcohol is an American tradition, isn’t mandatory.
Varnel Watson
church folk just wanna get drunk or get on CBD Danny Kircharr Robert Cox aint that the truth For sure
Rick Slotboom
Pentecostal studies scholars Walter Hollenweger and Allen Anderson pointed out that one of the most powerful and distinctive characteristics behind the Pentecostal movement is the ability to flexibally adapt to different cultures. If you study the work of the Spirit and the grace of God in the NT you’ll find the same there.
Rick Slotboom
And supposing that moderate drinking equals ‘wanting to get drunk’ is sheer ignorance. Many Europeans are very good at being moderate. Even some unbelievers in nu family would always stop after three glasses of beer, because of the influence of traditional protestant culture. I think one of the problems is that Americans have often little knowledge or understanding of other cultures and then are too quick to judge or impose their own views. However, The apostle Paul was a Jew to the Jews and a Greek to the Greeks. The Kingdom of God doesn’t consist in eating or drinking but in righteousness joy and peace in the Holy Ghost. Americans should learn to make a clearer distinction between God’s Kingdom and American culture politics, because too many pentecostal missionaries have been an extension of corrupt American politics, doing great harm to the witness of the Gospel. I think that it is for good reason that many unbelieving people in other countries have often been suspicious of American missionaries as being an expension of geopolitics (which has demonstrably the case, like the Rockefellers funding many Pentecostal missionaries to Latin America together with US government (see Colby, The Kingdom Come). This is also the reason that Chinese missionaries are often much more effective in reaching people in the muslim world than Americans.
Rick Slotboom
William Seymour taught us that the main sign of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is LOVE, especially between people of different ethnicities and cultures. Same in Acts 2, people ‘from every nation under heaven’ being represented. Because America is so powerful, I think to a great extent Religion and politics have become mixed up, leading to a great amount of spiritual deception. The national spiritual rulers of the people are both political, nationally organized and linked up with the religious spirit. I can back this up with extensive NT scholarship. Especially the American church is under a consideratie amount of spiritual deception, because of it’s linking of national culture, politics and religion, which the NT links to the principalities and powers. Do judge people on the basis of things which the NT considers adiapheroonta (indifferent things). There’s just so little discernment in the body of Christ.
Doyle Rogers
HAVING TAUGHT in Peniel Ministries Rehab .and being witnessed to the curse of Alcoholic beverages , I would recommend that it be left alone . I will be 86 on the 20th of this month , and I don’t know the taste of beer whiskey or wine.. I haven’t missed any thing but the sorrow Paine and death they cause. . I don’t need the joy of any occasion to be dulled by alcohol. I want to live life in the fullest. ……………… 2Ti_1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. .
Varnel Watson
dont be social drinking Doyle Rogers Rick Slotboom
Varnel Watson
TRUE
Dildeep Lehal
Holy communion?
Varnel Watson
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/toronto-bans-holy-communion/
Jason Walter
Jesus’s first miracle was water into wine & he drank wine…
Added doctrine of men vs. Actual scripture
Varnel Watson
where does it say Jesus drunk wine? No such verse in the NT Dont Add doctrine of men to the. Actual scripture
Lewis Roe
The Last Supper when he hands it out and tells everyone to join him in sharing it and with bread.
Jason Walter
Troy Day I don’t add to scripture. Read scripture with understanding… ?♂️
Varnel Watson
Lewis Roe last supper narrative says CUP not wine Jason Walter you are correct you didnt add any scripture cause you got none to proof your heretical approach
Lewis Roe
Are they drinking from an empty cup?
Jason Walter
Troy Day For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by all her children.”
Luke 7:33-35
Lewis Roe
Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks, he gave it to them, and they all drank from it. He said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. Truly I tell you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
Mark 14:23-25
Fruit of the vine = wine
No longer = did before
Until = will do in the future
Varnel Watson
Jason Walter the Greek is emphatically clear this is what his accusers were saying about him – false theology and fake news Lewis Roe you said you got BIBLE that it was wine Now that you got no Bible that actually says it you refer to humanistic logic not the Bible BOTTOM LINE The Bible does not say WINE in the Communion You can fill in your own humanistic logic but you also got NO proof in Jesus time they used social drinking wine that you use today In fact what you present is a straw-man fallacy to the question from OP Q: To drink in moderation or not to drink? Did you even read the article ?
Fruit of the vine = wine is where you err Lewis Roe could be grape juice You got no BIBLE for your claim You are just assuming something from your drinking culture and sinful nature
Jason Walter
Troy Day make all the excuses you want for man’s doctrine.
If you actually studied the Greek it does specify different types of drink. All contained some alcohol. New wine would have the least. The older the wine the more alcohol it would have. Pasteurization wasn’t invented until mid 1800s. Before this all communion had alcohol in it, in fact some churches still use real wine. It was the Methodist church that pushed for non-alcoholic communion. Scripture never forbids drinking, only pharisees of our time doing the same as the pharisees of old; adding their own laws to scripture…
Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice.
Deuteronomy 14:26
Lewis Roe
Psalm 104:14–15: “The LORD makes … plants for man to cultivate – bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladdens the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains his heart.”
Ecclesiastes 9:7: “Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.”
Taylor Walton
I think we found the Pharisee….???
Chandiwira Beza
Troy Day for the love of god . The Bible mentions drinking the “good wine “ like ten times.
Jesus first miracle was water into wine. And not it wasn’t some lightly fermented barely alcoholic drink. It was 80 proof .
The Bible says drunks shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven .
It says no place anywhere that drinking a little bit of beer or wine or bourbon is going to condemn you to hell forever
Ann-Marie Roy
Church dogma colours interpretation and clouds the eyes to see what is so obvious.
Please dont get frustrated with Troy, let the verses speak for themselves.
It is not a life or death issue, so if Troy doesnt want to drink, if it goes against his conscience, that’s fine for him
The way you feel now is how I feel when the trinity is discussed…it’s so obvious how can they not see it?
Said with love ❣
Lewis Roe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRpA4njHF64
Varnel Watson
pls note the LAST SUPPER narrative says CUP not wine
Pls not e Jn 2 Jesus never drunk the wine he made and it was not the wine you are referring to in social drinking anyway
Pls note Jesus never said he drunk, he said his accusers said he drunk but he never did
Pls note Timothy was only advised to use it as medicine
pls note Jesus said not to drink it until NEW in Heaven
WHAT else you got from the BIBLE today?
Dildeep Lehal
Troy Day sayings he never drunk wine, he only made it, is like saying he didn’t smoke weed, he only rolled the joints for others
Varnel Watson
hey Jason Walter Lewis Roe what NOW? yall are both OUT of BIBLE to proof your claim and its only 8 in the morning 🙂
Jason Walter
Troy Day I’ve proved my claim 3 times now. Where is your scripture? Where is your proof of anything; besides getting offended & upset. Thinking you are calling us out? What does the time of the morning matter? ?♂️?♂️
Jason Embry
There is absolutely no reason to think Jesus did not drink wine. Why in the world would he turn water into wine if he didn’t approve. Anyone with common sense would know the cup at the last supper had wine. Those that understand scripture know also that the New Testament and the Old Testament are perfectly congruent. In the OT we are told to buy intoxicating drink for the feast tabernacles.
Daren Lausterer
I don’t drink alcohol but i really doubt that statement
Rhae Hettie Parker
Not true
Dildeep Lehal
Troy Day is your point that if anyone drinks wine, even for holy communion they are not actually Christians? So they will be rejected by God in judgement day?
Andrew Rizko
Strain at a gnat, swallow a camel.
Varnel Watson
if this is your choice of social drink you should be careful
Brian Ventham
Take a little wine with your water Timothy.
Varnel Watson
was there a reason for this recommendation? or are you making the false and heretical statement that Paul was advising for social drinking that you like so much?
Brian Ventham
Simply stating a Biblical fact, how you interpret it is for you. God bless
Varnel Watson
Brian Ventham what Biblical fact have you stated 🙂 You dont even know where in the BIBLE such fact could be show a BIBLE verse where they drunk alcohol spirits
Brian Ventham
1 Tim 5:23;Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.
Varnel Watson
Brian Ventham for thy stomach’s sake as medicine which was customary per doctors orders back then Now go take your pill that says no alcohol BTW the verse does NOT prove social drinking just medicine Plain and clear
Brian Ventham
Am I not allowed my medication in a public place then?
Brian Ventham
Jesus turns water to wine John 2:1-11
Justice Mogale Monkoe
Who said Jesus and his disciples didn’t drink alcohol?
Varnel Watson
who said He did – certainly NOT Marx
Joshua Bullard
This is incorrect information.
Putting up fences upon fences in front of God’s Word is an issue.
Varnel Watson
obviously you come judgmental without even reading the article You bring false information in the body
Joshua Bullard
Hello Troy,
I did read the article.
It’s wrong. That’s not being judgmental.
Sean Edie
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, “Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.”
Luke 7:34
Varnel Watson
hearsay
Sean Edie
Troy Day Luke 7:34 is hearsay? If you don’t believe what the Bible says about Jesus, where are you getting what He did drink?
Sean Edie
Troy Day this is what historians say about it https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X6FVh-etEtw&feature=youtu.be
Varnel Watson
Yes JESUS said YOU SAY – that they said it about him did not make it True Show a BIBLE verse where they drunk alcohol spirits
Sean Edie
Troy Day He says He drank what John didn’t. Or did you think John went without any drink?
Varnel Watson
Sean Edie He says He drank what John didn’t. NOPE read your BIBLE and try again
He actually said YOU SAY – Jesus never said what they say or agree with it IS what the BIBLE says and you should know that
Now
John did not drink because he grew up with the Essenes
Jesus was very familiar and quoted Essenes version of LXX in his sayings which shows he spent time with them You did not spend time in the wilderness with the Essenes and had a drinking habit
Anyhow, you verse proves nothing – only that they said he said something he never said or did Hence JESUS caught them in their hearsay Does not make their hearsay right Actually makes it wrong
Sean Edie
Troy Day He said “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, “Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.”
Luke 7:34
Not you say the Son of Man came eating and drinking. Watch the video and see what He would have drunk
Varnel Watson
Sean Edie and you say – hope you are reading it Also what about where Jesus said He will drink it NO more until NEW? Should we do the same as Jesus?
Sean Edie
Troy Day so you admit He did drink alcoholic wine for communion? He said to dink it in remembrance so we can drink it
Sean Edie
https://youtu.be/X6FVh-etEtw
John Varghese
Proverbs 23: 29-35:
29
Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaints?
Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?
30
Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.
31
Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly!
32
In the end it bites like a snake
and poisons like a viper.
33
Your eyes will see strange sights,
and your mind will imagine confusing things.
34
You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
lying on top of the rigging.
35
“They hit me,” you will say, “but I’m not hurt!
They beat me, but I don’t feel it!
When will I wake up
so I can find another drink?”
Varnel Watson
Proverbs 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to …
Chris Mosteller
If wine is forbidden then why is it used for a drink offering?
Leviticus 23:13
And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
If wine is forbidden then why does it say “the Nazarite may drink wine”
Numbers 6:20
And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the Lord: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.
If wine is forbidden then why did God bless the Israelites with wine?
Deuteronomy 7:13
And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
If wine is forbidden why does Proverbs say to give it to people with heavy hearts?
Proverbs 31:6
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
If wine is forbidden then why is it said to drink wine here?
Ecclesiastes 9:7
Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
If wine is forbidden then why did Jesus drink it?
Matthew 11:19
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
If wine is forbidden then why did Jesus turn water into the best wine ever?
John 2:10
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
There is a difference between drinking wine and being a drunk. Don’t overindulge but a little now and then is fine.
Varnel Watson
only by OT legalists now welcome to the NT Weve been expecting you
Chris Mosteller
Troy Day that would’ve been clever if I only used OT references. If you read my entire comment you’ll see two references from the NT as well. By the way, the OT is still relevant, even for addressing this question because it reveals that God has never been completely against wine as long as you’re in control and there are times to abstain from it, such as fasts.
Varnel Watson
Chris Mosteller you obviously are cherry picking from this discussion
Matthew 11:19
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say,
THEY say – dont make it true
Jn 2 – turn us some water into wine if your doctrine is true
Chris Mosteller
Troy Day another swing, another miss. I typed wine into Bible Gateway and studied the results. There are 233 verses involving wine. I looked at them all. You know, instead of spending time working on clever comments, it would serve you better if you learned why humility is fundamental to wisdom.
Mark Garvin
You strain a gnat and swallow a camel. You notice the speck in your brother’s eye while you have a log in yours. Similar words spoken by Jesus. Before you judge a believer for having an alcoholic drink, make sure you are perfect first.
Varnel Watson
Why are you jugging“Judge[a] not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what [b]judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. especially in regard of your social drinking habits
Mark Marcotte
Well You May want to take that up with Jesus lol
Varnel Watson
Jesus said He will drink it no more until new What do you have to say now about your personal social drinking habit
Mark Marcotte
Troy Day I would direct you to Colossians chapter 2
Varnel Watson
Mark Marcotte Stay on topic pls No strawmen fallacy Show a BIBLE verse where they drunk alcohol spirits
Mark Marcotte
Troy Day Are you that inept that you can’t find scripture on drinking … Well let’s start with Deuteronomy 14 :26
Varnel Watson
Mark Marcotte Lets now since we are not under the LAW Lets start with the NT where its pretty clear followers of Christ did not drink and were forbidden to abuse alcohol #hello Jesus himself said He will NOT drink it until NEW
Mark Marcotte
Troy Day Jesus drank and made wine ?… honestly your agenda is that of a Pharisee
Mark Marcotte
Troy Day The very fact that Jesus even stated he would drink wine in Heaven deludes your argument . Further more your incapacity to understand scripture in context is irritating.
John Browne
Mark Marcotte I guess Troy Day has a problem with Alcohol. That’s cool.
But his plight to stop you in your personal social drinking habit, would be a lot annoying!!
Saying you have a habit which he believes, is like he is saying he doesn’t trust your love of Christ. Maybe he is projecting what was once a problem for him sometime in his life unto you.
It was weird how you said take it up with Jesus and then he immediately labeled you as someone that has a habit.
I don’t even know if you drink alcohol. It’s none of ny business.
Robert Matte
So Jesus nor His Disciples never drank wine ? False.
Jesus never turned water into wine. False.
The early Christians only drank water of Grape Juice. False.
Varnel Watson
show us BIBLE verse for that
also if you can turn water into wine like Jesus only then you are good to drink and only such wine Not your mix drink from your social drinking habbit
John Browne
Troy Day wow bro. I BBQ Shrimp on the sabbath. I enjoyed it. But the Old Testament says I shouldn’t
Robert Matte
John Browne not supposed to eat Crustaceans.
Franklin Omoikhudu
70% of people that took strong wine has misbehaved.
Jason Walter
Franklin Omoikhudu where do you get that % ??
Robert Matte
Franklin Omoikhudu ?………..
Mark Richmond
I always knew I was a fake Christian – well I guess its time to get loaded since I am headed to the Hot place.
Carel de Jager
Mark Richmond dong thi k the place is hot….. is without justice and peace. Eternity is very long…..especially near the end???
Varnel Watson
speaks of character and sanctification
Mark Richmond
Carel de Jager I am not worried about it. I believed the promise John 3:16 Believing in Him for eternal life. Been a Christian for 40 years. S a t I r e!!!!
Joshua Wigley
I know a few Christians that drink a lot of alcohol
Varnel Watson
they call it tasting not wasting
Jeffrey Grier
Moderation
Varnel Watson
cant control spirits
Peter Cooper
Real Christians drink wine regularly.
Varnel Watson
real Christians drink not real wine
Real wine is only drunk by not real Christians
David Elie
Peter Cooper you are correct !!
Jason P Sage
That’s a PURe LIE
Varnel Watson
you just spew something without any BIBLE or proof What issue are you addressing ?
Jason P Sage
Troy Day “Real Christians do NOT drink ANY Alcohol”
SPEW? No Bible Proof? I Can not comment without a “Verse” or it’s SPEW?
Really? Hmm.. I Disagree.
Varnel Watson
Jason P Sage Show some BIBLE for your agreement OR disagreement What else are we talking about? I am not in humanistic logic and explaining way BIBLE pls
Jason P Sage
Troy Day
Writes:
Troy Day
Jason P Sage Show some BIBLE for your agreement OR disagreement What else are we talking about? I am not in humanistic logic and explaining way BIBLE pls
Do I Need to quote a bible verse, to show God Authorized a Miracle for Jesus to carry out? Water to WINE? For a Wedding Celebration?
Or Bring up – WINE as the PASSOVER Emblem of Our LORD?
Or explain to you the difference between having some wine and BEING a DRUNKARD?
What are you saying here “I am not in humanistic logic and explaining way BIBLE pls ”
Humanistic? I never declared you were, are you implying I am a GODLESS HUMANIST or something?
(shaking my head)
Sheep Dog Out – Ruff Ruff
Timothy E Phillips Jr
I guess Jesus and the disciples were not real Christians then!
Varnel Watson
show a BIBLE verse where they drunk alcohol spirits
Désirée Sebastian Klich
It causes my brothers and sisters to stumble so I choose not to.
Jason Walter
Désirée Sebastian Klich telling brothers & sisters something that isn’t a sin, is a sin causes far more to stumble…
Désirée Sebastian Klich
Jason Walter, I didn’t read the article, is that what it implies? Drinking causes my brothers and sisters to sin, so I choose not to, help them make a better choice for their families.
Jason Walter
Désirée Sebastian Klich yes, the article implies any drinking is a sin.
Lynn Cook
Every alcoholic that has ever lived will tell you, they wish they hadn’t taken that first drink. It starts with that first drink and that leads to two, then tree, on and on. As Christian people we are being watched by others. We must set an example for others and if Christian people are drinking, it hurts our example.
Jason Walter
Lynn Cook those are alcoholics… that’s why moderation is preached in scripture.
It isn’t forbidden by scripture to drink, in fact during some biblical holidays & celebrations it’s encouraged. Preaching that all drinking is forbidden is adding to scripture mans doctrines & what the pharisees did & Jesus preached against when it came to them.
Lynn Cook
The bible actually forbids drunkenness. Ephesians 5:18: “Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 –
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]homosexuals, nor [b]sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. I had several alcoholics in my family and before they were considered alcoholics, they drank and got drunk. It started with that first drink.
Jason Walter
Lynn Cook drunkenness in plural, always when in mentioned it’s in plural. I have done much research into this. In Greek & Hebrew the original text definition is habitually drunk…
Jason Walter
Lynn Cook the Pharisees judged on similar basis not keeping with Gods laws placing there laws higher…
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
Luke 7:33-34
Lynn Cook
Does not drunkenness begin with one drink?
Jason Walter
Lynn Cook no it begins with lack of control &/or many other mental or psychological issues..
Lynn Cook
What kind of mental and psychological issues, what control issues?
Jason Walter
Lynn Cook depends on the person. It’s often both nurture & nature.
Lynn Cook
So, you are saying that if someone is not nurtured as a child they will become an alcoholic or drunkard? Some people are prone to become addicted to things quickly. Unfortunately, it’s genetic. An example would be the Indians. They can become alcoholics very quick compared to others. I can see where you are coming from, but it still begins with one drink. My heritage is Jewish and European (German). I have no doubt I could become an alcoholic and because of my family history, the bible, and I never want a substance to control me, I will not drink.
Jason Walter
Lynn Cook it’s psychology that I’m speaking of. Addiction is either nature or nurture.
Juliet Miskolczi
I find that prior alcoholics like to bash others who drink. It’s not my problem you are a pig for alcohol or anyone’s problem you have to drink the fountain because you don’t know when enough is enough.
Juliet Miskolczi
Lynn Cook thanks mom. ??? Mind your own house. There’s a word for people like you in scripture. “Busybody”
Lynn Cook
Juliet Miskolczi I am NOT a mom, I was born with birth defects, and as a result, I couldn’t have children. I also have 2 degrees. Medical and Chemistry. I am very familiar with the human body and especially of biochem and microbiology. Nope, I’m not a busybody in the least but I do know what scripture says about drinking and drunkards. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 — Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you, The words are not mine, they are God’s. Don’t believe anything anyone says, study and read the scripture for yourself. Then you will see.
John Browne
Some people should drink alcohol. There are to many dry drunks
Bobby Taylor
Actually… They do.
Varnel Watson
show a BIBLE verse where they drunk alcohol spirits
Bobby Taylor
Troy Day All through scripture. Do your own homework.
John Davis
Unbiblical
Varnel Watson
show a BIBLE verse where they drunk alcohol spirits
John Davis
Troy Day St. John 2:1-12
Roy Friesen
Real Christians do not get drunk , or high
Or anything that allows their self control to leave them
Self control is the fruit of the spirit ?
Jason Walter
Roy Friesen so what about the disciples & Jesus drinking wine? ??
Roy Friesen
Jason Walter
there is nothing with drinking alcohol , Jesus and the disciples weren’t getting drunk
it’s the point of drunkenness it becomes sin
Getting high is also that same form of drunkenness , slowed reaction time
“Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
1 Corinthians 6:10 KJV
Jason Walter
Roy Friesen what about Noah getting drunk after the flood?
What about those that use opioids to manage pain… ?
Roy Friesen
Jason Walter
It is wrong
According to the BIBLE
Drunkenness is a sin no matter who does it
Jason Walter
Roy Friesen drunkenness plural greek = habitually drunk…
Roy Friesen
Jason Walter
Even getting drunk one time is still a sin .
Being drunk of itself has no light .
I’m not sure if you’re ok with someone getting drunk once in a while
It’s still sin according to scripture , there is no excuse .
Jason Walter
Roy Friesen negative, Noah got drunk after the flood & did not sin. Many references to people getting drunk in scripture.
Jason Walter
Roy Friesen Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice.
Deuteronomy 14:26
Roy Friesen
Jason Walter
Since you’re saying it’s ok to get drunk I’m going to respectfully remove myself from this conversation
“Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.”
Proverbs 20:1 KJV
Getting drunk is losing self control
The fruit of the spirit is self control
So your idea contradicts the bible
Jason Walter
Roy Friesen Understanding scripture in context. Don’t just use your dislike of alcohol & years of doctrines of men. Actually look up drunkenness, drunkard… how many times scripture references getting drunk in scripture.
Getting drunk is not always losing control, sometimes it is in joyous celebration.
Shalom
Jason Walter
Roy Friesen Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to those who are bitter of heart. Let him drink and forget his poverty, And remember his misery no more.
Proverbs 31:6-7
Désirée Sebastian Klich
Jason Walter , saying Noah got drunk so its okay to get drunk, is similar to saying David raped and killed a woman’s husband so that’s okay too. Come on, use scripture wisely.
Jason Walter
Désirée Sebastian Klich not that context… ?♂️?♂️
John Browne
Roy Friesen So If a Christian goes and gets a hip replaced. Dr. Prescribes a Narcotic, they obviously are going to end up high. They now are not Real Christian?
Roy Friesen
John Browne
Doctors prescribing narcotics should be a concern …
To say someone isn’t a Christian / people expose themselves by their actions and beliefs .
We will know them by their fruit
John Browne
Roy Friesen whoa bro… Narcotics taken to heal eliminates suffering. Many good Christians can use Narcotics to get ya through a rough time.
Heck my sister was on large doses of morphine while a tumor pressed on her spine and once she had the surgery to get the tumor pressing on her spine she went to no narcotics.
Your observation is tough
David Elie
Moderation… every day…
Varnel Watson
show a BIBLE verse where they drunk alcohol spirits
David Elie
Troy Day Timothy was instructed by Paul to..
Varnel Watson
David Elie to what? to take his medicine before bed? Were instructed by Paul as well or this is just your private interpration ?
David Elie
Troy Day Timothy was instructed by Paul to use alcohol. Simple answer.
Let’s hear your complicated one.
Varnel Watson
David Elie sure – you can use it as rubbing alcohol BUT you claim that this verse allows social drinking is plain wrong BTW the verse does NOT say alcohol – you are simply adding to the BIBLE and twisting it to fit your social drinking habit 🙂
David Elie
Troy Day I know what the verse says. I was very deliberate is using my choice of words.
Varnel Watson
David Elie of course you were – manipulative and twisting the BIBLE Look up the word wine in the verse you quoted in its original Greek before you form an opinion
David Elie
I baited you into condemning me.
David Elie
You are going to lose this discussion badly. I’ve already uncovered your condemning spirit. Care to continue?
Varnel Watson
David Elie oh dear – and I got caught Oh no what am I going to do now Well nothing It is the BIBLE condemning you to your own perdition Concerning alcohol, Paul greatly encouraged Timothy to continue to ‘always be [nepho] sober’ NRSV, ‘be sober in all things’ NASB, ‘keep your head in all situations’ NIV (2 Tim. 4:5). It is used likewise in 1 Thess. 5:6,8, etc. Nepho means ‘to be free from the influence of intoxicants’ (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words). No Jew and no Gentile would persuade Timothy otherwise even for a moment, since alcoholic [oinos] wine causes spiritual drowsiness (not just bodily drowsiness).
I understand that Timothy had initially foregone even non-alcoholic [oinos] wine too (1 Tim. 5:23) – though it does not make the head heavy (see Athenaeus) – because he did not wish to give Jewish brethren a wrong impression that a little idolatry is tolerable (Rom. 14:20-21; 1 Cor. 10:28-29).
David Elie
Troy Day shopping for a new boat causes peeps to lose their minds.
Varnel Watson
David Elie find me a good cabin-one I just looked @ a max-24 and really liked it except the price BTW I am in pahokee and will stop to see you soon and we can talk about your drinking problem Whatever kind of wine Paul was talking about (fermented or unfermented), it is exceedingly plain that the purpose of his counsel to Timothy was due to his stomach ailments. Paul’s counsel related to a medicinal use, not a social enjoyment. What kind of wine was Paul recommending? Would the apostle encourage the moderate us of a drink which Proverbs 23:31 says “Look not upon the wine when it is red, “ a drink which brings “woe sorrow, babbling, and wounds” (Proverbs 23:29). A drink which is deceptive (Proverbs 20:1), a drink which perverts the judgment causing tine eyes to behold strange women and thine heart to utter strange things (Proverbs 23:32-33).
David Elie
Troy Day I know the proverbs passage well. Studied it many times. You left part of it out, You know.
David Elie
Troy DayDay…the part you left out explains what the author is telling his son.
Varnel Watson
David Elie no part left and no time to expose your manipulative nature The BIBLE is clear on wine
David Elie
Troy Day why would you think me a controlling person? Certainly none of my friends do…
The Proverbs passage has a clarifying statement in it.
The author is connecting time and persona to the subject at hand, thus exposing his true feelings to his son.
John Browne
David Elie I noticed its only assumed that you drink socially. This troy guy labeled you as a social drinker habit. I’m not going to ask if you partake or not. It has nothing to do with Christ in you
Kevin Hamilton
A lie that cannot be supported by scripture. Scripture only states Elders cannot drink alcohol. Also states, Deacons should not drink “much” wine. All Christians should never be drunk or intoxicated. Study your Bible, it is clear. Christians who have this conviction try and impose on everyone else, which is wrong!
Varnel Watson
show a BIBLE verse where they drunk alcohol spirits
Kevin Hamilton
Troy Day, first, name an alcoholic spirit that does not cause you to be drunk if taken in excess! You can’t. Why would the scripture “warn” about being a drunkard if it was not possible for this to occur?
Kevin Hamilton
Troy Day, John 2:1-11. The LORD himself turned water into “wine”. He did not turn it into grape juice, and he did not turn it into fruit of the vine, in a generic sense. “Wine” has been fermented and can intoxicate if taken in excess.
Kevin Hamilton
Troy Day, as a Christian, we should never lie or take scripture out of context intentionally to elevate a moral standard to where WE THINK it should be, where GOD did not place it. When we do that, against what scripture clearly shows, we “BIND” people to our convictions and are no better than the Pharisees and Sadducees. Plus, others will not trust we preach truth because we pick and choose vice simply speaking truth in everything. When brothers in Christ do this, although they do it because of good intentions, it causes me to wonder what else they may misquote because of their belief and not what scripture “as a whole” states.
We see that very thing with the movement that “Baptism is NOT essential, only Belief IS” movement.
We must remember Satan’s tactics! He ALWAYS mixes some truth with a big lie in order to deceive people, just like he did in the garden of Eden in the beginning. He has not changed!
Varnel Watson
Kevin Hamilton you actually do NOT know what kind of wine it was in Jn 2:1 You are simply assuming and twisting the text. If it was NEW wine it was not alcoholic Nevertheless, that Jesus turned water into wine does not help your case much It helps you to drink ONLY wine which Jesus turned from water When you get some such wine DO call us all to have a very Biblical drink with you but until then you aint got no case as it seems
Kevin Hamilton
Troy Day, it is you that “twist” the word my friend. I pray you do it ignorantly and not intentionally.
So, now I have a question for you. Why were Elders instructed to not be of any wine, and Deacons of not much wine, if it was simply grape juice and not intoxicating!
Frank Dean
Nothing wrong with Alcohol not unless you abuse it Jesus turned Water into Wine it was his first Miracle
Carel de Jager
Alcohol affects my senses. I often had a drink in the past and hou dont know exactly when you are getting drunk. I decided to be very honest with myself… So I decided to rather stop drinking. I dont miss alcohol at all. I think I was becoming an alcoholic as I felt I needed a beer more regularly. Rather safe than sorry for me. Each one is accountable for himself.
Carel de Jager
I often wonder what the truth is behind Christian’s defending alcohol?
Varnel Watson
church folk just wanna feel the buzz and get high
Jason Walter
Carel de Jager the fact they actually read the bible with understanding instead of following doctrine of men… ?♂️?♂️?♂️?♂️
Kevin Hamilton
Troy Day, that is a very worldly addiction and response. My wife and I drink a glass maybe every other day or so, for the health benefits. Just like any berries they are loaded with essential nutrients for good health. If a “Christian” is using it for the “buzz” you state, then you are correct, this is against scripture for a follower of Christ.
Varnel Watson
Kevin Hamilton every other day is consistent especially if you cannot stop it when you need to
Kevin Hamilton
Troy Day, you have judged me incorrectly. When I said every other day that did not indicate any kind of routine whatsoever. Sometimes we will go months without a single glass. However, when we would like a glass we have a glass, and we never get a buzz or intoxicated.
Anthony Mickelson
That is a false statement.
Varnel Watson
its not a statement BUT a question See where it has Q: in the title Means question You should read the whole article before you post or makes you look uninformed
Jo Garnham
Pharasee
Jo Garnham
I love a gin and tonic
Jo Garnham
And I’m a christian
Anne Coburn
It’s says not to get drunk
Jason Walter
Anne Coburn what scripture… I’ve only seen it referenced in plural sense..
Varnel Watson
Joshua Bullard it is obvious that you are begin prejudice and judgmental without reading the article It simply says this
Q: To drink in moderation or not to drink?
A: Neither & Both. Just don’t get drunk if you do.
Be filled with the Spirit, don’t judge or despise fellow believers otherwise, and walk in love towards those who may stumble.
HOW you draw your prejudice and judgmental conclusions from these 3 lines of Biblical text is beyond any comprehension
Joshua Bullard
Troy, your use of the article doesn’t match your posting of the article.
There is plenty more discussion within your article that I read through.
Your use of prejudice and judgmental loose meaning when you don’t use them properly.
Joshua Bullard
I’ll break it down just a little more.
I used the info you provided. I read what you refer to as an article. I read through the discussion in the article. I read your replies to others here.
The title of your ‘article’ sums up the point you are attempting to push.
It’s wrong.
Blessings brother.
Austyn Nickalo
But that’s like saying to eat or not to eat. It can lead to gluttony so just don’t eat at all….drinking is not a sin, being drunk is a sin. Just like eating is not a sin, but eating too much is. Tattoos are not a sin, but getting a tattoo has satan worship is a sin. Stop spreading fear and lies my dude.
Joseph Geranio
Timothy drank a little for stomachs sake? This is too broad of a statement
Vicki Curry
Joseph Geranio It might seem broad if we’re trying to read something into it.
Paul was just reminding Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach. Evidently he was prone to some kind of problems and a little wine helped him.
Paul wasn’t telling everyone to drink a little wine for their stomach.
It’s just a simple statement.?
Ana Lucia Jung
Even Jesus drank wine!!!!
Ana Lucia Jung
??
David Elie
Simplistic answers are easily winning this discussion. Complicated answers are for complicated people.
Jason Walter
Ana Lucia Jung cheers ??
Ana Lucia Jung
Jason Walter cheers!
Joshua Banks
Deuteronomy 14:26 anyone….
Varnel Watson
stay with the NT pls
Joshua Banks
Troy Day Hahahah why? Is the OT any less relevant? Jesus being called a “wine-bibber” isn’t enough, Paul telling Timothy to drink wine isn’t enough. If what you need is scriptural reasons to live under some type of restrictions then I recommend the entire book of Galatians since an entire portion of the LAW telling the people to drink with the priest isn’t good enough.
Carol Howard Fights
Matthew 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”
Varnel Watson
drinking what?
Carol Howard Fights
Wine.
Varnel Watson
Carol Howard Fights says who – not the BIBLE
Carol Howard Fights
Troy Day “For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’”
Varnel Watson
Carol Howard Fights so you assume that because John did not drink wine, when it says Jesus drunk it must be wine? And then you assume that οἶνος is strong wine? And then you assume…
and based of your series of assumption then Jesus must have drunk strong wine? Great assumption
Carol Howard Fights
Troy Day please. You are going to argue with me on this? If Jesus thought it wrong, he wouldn’t have turned the water into wine. Better wine than the original.
Varnel Watson
Carol Howard Fights really? But does it say Jesus drunk from it? And what about where Jesus also said he will NOT drink?
Matthew 26:29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine …
Do we just ignore all His words or defend social drinking ?
Carol Howard Fights
Troy Day God’s Word warns about drunkenness throughout. Jesus was perfect so no he didn’t get drunk. Please stop trying to be argumentative about this. And stop acting like Jesus didn’t drink wine. It’s obvious he did in the right manner.
Varnel Watson
Carol Howard Fights hey if you love drinking oh well but Jesus said in Matthew 26:29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine … So what should we do – like Jesus or like you?
Carol Howard Fights
Troy Day what is wrong with you? You are judging me for something you have no idea about and you sound like a Pharisee. That’s more sinful than anything a glass of wine can do. Check yourself.
Joshua Banks
This is always a funny conversation to me. Christians wanna talk about their freedom in Christ and then spend the rest of their lives trying to figure out what they are or aren’t allowed to do….
Maybe we forgot about the garden of eden…man was told to eat from the tree of life yet man would rather eat of the “what’s right and what’s wrong” tree. Maybe rather than trying to call everything a sin, we should focus on what brings life.
Varnel Watson
if freedom to drink booze is funny to you NOT sure what bondage in sin is fixing to be for you
Joshua Banks
Troy Day hahahahaha cute cherry picked response. Listen if you want to live your life trying to identify sins then go for it.
Paul said that anything not done in faith is sin. So if faith says to forgive and you choose to not to, sin. If faith says not to preferentially treat people on race and ethnicity but you still have a problem with people who don’t look like you, it’s sin.
Y’all wanna focus so heavily on low hanging fruit cause it suits your personal convictions.
Paul said that if doing certain things violates your conscience the YOU shouldn’t do it. Love you convictions but Preach the gospel.
Varnel Watson
Joshua Banks you bring race into drinking? So if the BIBLE says not to sleep around but you are free to sleep around if you do it faith WHAT? what type of logic is this ?
Joshua Banks
Troy Day well keeping to the subject, the Bible never says not to drink..in fact I just pointed out several that said it was ok. So….your point is?
Joshua Banks
Troy Day and the fact that you wanna just pick one and ignore the other is precisely the point. The real question is what is sin. You obviously have an issue with alcohol so don’t drink it.
Varnel Watson
Joshua Banks Matthew 26:29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine … Jesus said it in the BIBLE
Joshua Banks
Troy Day ok…. that proves what?
Varnel Watson
Joshua Banks that Jesus said He will not drink – so why should you especially if you admit your problem
Joshua Banks
Troy Day Hahahah jesus who turned water into wine…terribly cruel of him to set everyone up for sin isn’t it
Joshua Banks
Troy Day jesus also didn’t eat unclean meat and then told Peter to kill and eat in a vision…next
Varnel Watson
Joshua Banks are you denying Jesus said Matthew 26:29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine … http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/50-reasons-why-i-dont-drink-alcohol-ourcog-tot/
Rave Chosentotonga
?????
Varnel Watson
Carol Howard Fights are you denying Jesus said Matthew 26:29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine …
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/50-reasons-why-i-dont-drink-alcohol-ourcog-tot/
Varnel Watson
And stop acting like Jesus didn’t drink wine in the right manner.
I would like to see a verse where is says how Jesus drunk in your right manner Maybe your right manner was not His right manner Why pushing on Jesus your culture? Just more assumptions that are NOT in the Bible Why?
Carol Howard Fights
Troy Day you’re taking what he said out of context but you keep doing you, Pharisee. Begone.
Varnel Watson
Carol Howard Fights hey If you deny the BIBLE In one can help you but do Tell us the right context – it was during Communion BTW Joshua Banks care to join us here and tell us what do you think was the right manner Jesus drunk wine? I think the right manner was that Jesus did not drink as the Bible tells us
Carol Howard Fights
Troy Day I said begone, Pharisee!
Varnel Watson
Carol Howard Fights if the right manner is your social setting why do you push it on Jesus BTW your friendly police officer will tell you that you are a certain % drunk even after a glass of wine You are never NOT drunk after you drink You are just legally not drunk So when you get into these cultural assumptions HOW did Jesus drink in the right manner 🙂 according to you or to who? Please do not call me names in your typical bulling manner Jesus would not do that or would He do it like you in the right manner?
Varnel Watson
1. I can’t be sober-minded if I’m not sober.
2. Alcohol has an assignment: destruction.
3. Alcohol is a depressant. Anything that depresses should be avoided at all costs…
Michael A. Clark
I disagree with #2 and #3. Alcohol has no assignment. It has no motives nor will.
Dennis Deangelo
agree
Kevin Lyons
Amos 9:14
I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.
Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works.
GOD HAS ALREADY DID WHAT??? I THOUGHT REAL CHRISTIANS DONT DRINK WINE?
Chris Medlin
Jesus drank ?♂️
Paul Vincent Maranan
Some christian drinks some dont.real christian avoid being drunk…happy is the man who dont abuse his God given freedom.
Tim Spangler
Thus saith a random internet control freak
Alicia Davis
Well, that’s not true.
David Elie
I find that most peeps who practice abstinence are usually obsessed with something else. When they bother me I just go tell them to buy something. Shopping and buying obsession is very common among believers.
Tim Spangler
David Elie Yep.us humans are SO fixated on the sins of others! (but not our own )
David Elie
Tim Spangler whenever I feel the need to buy something I just go to the Goodwill store. It’s a strange obsession, but I think most of us came by it honestly. There are many obsessions similar to this.
Tim Spangler
David Elie Be careful…someone will see a Goodwill speck in your eye
David Elie
Tim Spangler haha true !
Tim Spangler
David Elie But guess what? When they do they will be NOT offering “Good will”
Allen Deazil
Wasn’t Jesus called an alcoholic? Granted it never said he got drunk, but he did have alcohol.
Jason Walter
Allen Deazil winebibber, the same premise the OP is making, just as the pharisees accused Jesus because he drank wine with sinners & tax collectors.
Varnel Watson
Jason Walter called by his accusers – so basically this makes you agree with Christ’s accusers Oh well
Jason Walter
Troy Day nope, it makes you agree with his accusers. Have you ever picked up a bible? ?♂️?♂️
The pharisees accused Jesus of being a winebibber, for drinking wine with tax collectors & sinners… ????? (sound familiar?)
Varnel Watson
Jason Walter his accusers said He got drunk on wine I dont think Jesus got drunk on wine, you do 🙂
Jason Walter
Troy Day you believe that drinking any wine to be a sin. And they were calling him a winebibber… ?♂️?♂️
I am just pointing out that Jesus drank wine, not that he got drunk…
John Browne
So If a war vet comes back home with PTSD, the only drug that can treat it is Heroine. Would that be Christ Like?
Careful of your understanding. Many Christian war vets suffer and Alcohol is side effect.
Varnel Watson
PTSD is not treated with Heroine. You are reaching You dont treat one addiction with another
John Browne
Troy Day your wrong. The pills that help with Trauma all have a dose of heroine. The difference is your not buying illicit Street drugs, you get a prescription from your Dr.
Jamie Dech
Mountains out of dwarf mole hills.
Tim Spangler
Jamie Dech AKA- Speck inspecting
Varnel Watson
Tim Spangler meaning what? Christians can get drunk via social drinking which is NOT in the BIBLE and still go to heaven? What about the sin of NOAH ?
Jamie Dech
I don’t see anyone arguing for drunkenness being ok. Why do you jump to that all the time?
Varnel Watson
Jamie Dech I dont believe your derogatory remark is accurate especially taking the scope of so many Christians and even ministers falling off the wagon We should love and care for such as Christians instead of calling their drinking issues miner or over-reactive
Jamie Dech
There you go again. Not all drinking alcohol is “falling off the wagon.”
Varnel Watson
Jamie Dech actually NOT true at all Just ask your friendly police officers when they pull you over after drinking You are always a certain % off the wagon – I strongly doubt you would say Jesus was off the wagon any % or would you ?
Jamie Dech
Obviously you don’t know what “falling off the wagon” means. In addition to being legalistic, you don’t understand the colloquialisms you’re using.
Really, man. There are bigger fish to fry. No one will disagree with you if you talk about drunkenness. Maybe you should stick to that. Unless your intention is to argue.
If it is, go ahead and be argumentative but you’ll have to play by yourself.
John Browne
Troy Day So If I go out to dinner with my wife. I have a beer when I arrive and I drink that one beer over a 2hr period, the friendly police would find me a %.
I’ve got a friend who may have a drink every 2 or 3 months and goes out to dinner with his and may every 2-3 fall off his wagon and have that one drink. Over a 2 hour period.
One time my friend had about 3 beers in one setting and he was buzzed a lot. His tolerance level is not that high. But one time in 35 in the years I’ve known is hardly falling short.
Your tossing Gods word around like an Oreo Cookie.