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Tribulation = G3986 – peirasmos πειρασμός
1) an experiment, attempt, trial, proving
a) trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:14)
b) the trial of man’s fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy
1) an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances
2) an internal temptation to sin
a) of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand
3) of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness
WHAT ARE THE ISSUES?
The notion that one who has heard the Gospel and rejects it before the Rapture will
thus be unable to be saved in the Tribulation is argued from 2nd Thessalonians
2:10—12, which reads as follows: . . . and with all the deception of wickedness for those who
perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. And for this reason
God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, in order
that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”
Proponents of this view contend that God, through the Antichrist, will actively delude
those who do not believe. While this is true, nothing in the passage suggests that the
delusion is the result of an individual’s unbelief due to his rejection of the Gospel before
the Rapture. There are a number of reasons why I do not think that 2nd Thessalonians
supports this view.
1) J. Dwight Pentecost – from “Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology”, 1958.
“With the identification of the Holy Spirit as the restrainer of II Thess 2:7 comes the persistent allegation by the opponents of this view that says the Holy Spirit must cease to operate in the world during the tribulation because He is no longer indwelling the body of Christ as His temple. Nothing could be further from the truth. It must be noted that the Holy Spirit did not undertake an indwelling ministry to every believer in the Old Testament, yet the Lord addressing one under that old economy indicates clearly that salvation was by the operation of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-6). Apart from this indwelling ministry Old Testament saints were said to be saved by the Holy Spirit, even though He did not indwell the believer as a temple. So, in the tribulation period, the Holy Spirit, who is omnipresent, will do the work of regeneration as He did when God was previously dealing with Israel, but WITHOUT AN INDWELLING MINISTRY. The present-day indwelling is related to empowerment, to union of believer with believer because of their relation to the Temple of God, but the indwelling is entirely distinct and separated from the work of the Spirit in regeneration. Thus, it should be clearly seen that even though THE SPIRIT IS NOT INDWELLING IN THE TRIBULATION, He may still be operative in regeneration.”
2) John F. Walvoord – from “The Rapture Question,” 1979.
“It should also be evident that if the Spirit of God characteristically indwells the church as well as the individual saint in this age, the removal of the Spirit would involve a dispensational change and the removal of the church as well. While the Spirit will work in the tribulation period, HE WILL FOLLOW THE PATTERN OF THE PERIOD BEFORE PENTECOST RATHER THAN THIS PRESENT AGE OF GRACE. The Spirit of God will return to heaven after accomplishing His earthly work, much as the Lord Jesus Christ returned to heaven after completing His earthly work. In both cases, the work of the Second Person and the Third Person continues, but IN A DIFFERENT SETTING AND IN A DIFFERENT WAY.”
3) John Walvoord – from “The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation” – p128
“But neither Gundry nor anyone else can prove that THE BAPTIZING WORK OF THE SPIRIT THAT FORMS THE CHURCH IS EVER SEEN IN THE TRIBULATION. That the Spirit works in the tribulation all agree. THAT THE SPIRIT INDWELLS ALL BELIEVERS IS NOWHERE TAUGHT.
4) Hal Lindsey – from “The Rapture”, Bantam Books, p 138)
The Holy Spirit will revert back to do the “work as He did in the Old Testament.”
“The Holy Spirit will not be gone from the world, BUT HIS UNIQUE MINISTRIES IN, THROUGH AND FOR THE BELIEVER WILL BE REMOVED WITH THE CHURCH.”
“…THE UNIQUE CHURCH ECONOMY MINISTRIES OF INDWELLING, BAPTIZING, SEALING, GIFTING AND FILLING OF EVERY BELIEVER WILL BE REMOVED WITH THE CHURCH. This is consistent with all that is revealed of the average Tribulation believer’s level of spiritual insight, knowledge and maturity.”
5) John Hagee – from “The Battle For Jerusalem”, p 228
“God will be faithful to His covenant people. The 144,000 Jews who are sealed as witnesses immediately after the Rapture will be granted divine protection so that they may be preserved during the time of Tribulation. God’s judgment and wrath will be evident, yes, but so will His mercy. Once the church has been removed, God will act to bring the nation of Israel to faith in Him. THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHILE NOT INDWELLING BELIEVERS AS HE DID IN THE CHURCH AGE,The Holy Spirit, while not indwelling believers as He did in the church age, will move to convict and enlighten. The Jews will see miraculous signs of God’s work…”
6) Dr. Thomas Ice – from “The Holy Spirit and the Tribulation”
One of the most compelling, yet often misunderstood, arguments for pretribulationism relates to the Holy Spirit’s role to the church and the tribulation period. Most holding to the pre-trib position believe that 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 refers to the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit through the agency of the Church. Thus, when the church is raptured before the tribulation, that ministry of the Holy Spirit will be removed as well. If this interpretation is correct, then it is a strong argument for pretribulationism.
The Restrainer
Second Thessalonians 2:1-12 discusses a man of lawlessness being held back until a later time. Interpreting the restrainer of evil (2:6) as the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit at work through the body of Christ during the current Church Age, supports pretribulationism. Since the lawless one (the beast or Antichrist) cannot be revealed until the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is taken away (2:7-8), the tribulation, (called the day of the Lord in this passage), cannot occur until after the church is removed. Of all the rapture positions, only the pre-trib position can be harmonized when we understand that the Restrainer is referring to the Holy Spirit.
I believe the correct interpretation of this passage understands the restrainer to refer to the Holy Spirit as He functions during the present church age through the baptism of the Holy Spirit and indwelling of believers. These are ministries that are unique to the Church Age. Both the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit began on the Day of Pentecost as Acts 2 describes. Therefore, these ministries of the Holy Spirit were not active in this way before the birth of the Church.
The cryptic reference to the Holy Spirit’s present work in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 explains the unusual grammar employed in the passage. In verse six “the restrainer” is in the neuter gender (to katchon) while in verse seven “the Restrainer” is masculine (o katechn). The significance of such grammar and how it relates to the Holy Spirit and the rapture is explained by Dr. Robert Thomas below.
Key to the above scenario is whether the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer. After surveying various interpretations of the passage he concludes:
To one familiar with the Lord Jesus Upper Room Discourse, as Paul undoubtedly was, fluctuation between neuter and masculine recalls how the Holy Spirit is spoken of. Either gender is appropriate, depending on whether the speaker (or writer) thinks of natural agreement (masc. because of the Spirit’s personality) or grammatical (neuter because of the noun pneuma; see John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13, 14) . . . This identification of the restrainer with deep roots in church history . . . is most appealing. THE SPECIAL PRESENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AS THE INDWELLER OF SAINTS WILL TERMINATE ABRUPTLY AT THE PAROUSIA AS IT BEGAN ABRUPTLY AT PENTECOST. Once the body of Christ has been caught away to heaven, THE SPIRIT’S MINISTRY WILL REVERT BACK TO WHAT HE DID FOR BELIEVERS DURING THE OT PERIOD. His function of restraining evil through the body of Christ (John 16:7-11; 1 John 4:4) will cease similarly to the way he terminated his striving in the days of Noah (Gen. 6:3). At that point the reins will be removed from lawlessness and the Satanically inspired rebellion will begin. It appears that to katechon (what is holding back) was well known at Thessalonica as a title for the Holy Spirit on whom the readers had come to depend in their personal attempts to combat lawlessness (1 Thess. 1:6; 4:8; 5:19; 2 Thess. 2:13).
Anonymous
PROVE me WRONG: If the Holy Spirit is taken after the Rapture, no one can be saved during the Tribulation… Oscar Valdez Link Hudson Philip Williams Duane L Burgess Biblical teaching of the rapture, when taught in balance with the whole of scripture, is healthy and vital for the church.
1. The Blessed Hope incites believers to holiness of living because we want to be ready and spotless at his return.
2. It helps make the believer brave and steadfast in the face of persecution, knowing our redemption is at hand.
3. It makes the Christian worker bold and gives him a sense of urgency in evangelism, knowing that the harvest is great and time is short.
4. It helps him keep his priorities straight, because the material world is temporary and will soon pass away. His heart is set on heaven, his eye on the comingof Christ, and his mind on God’s eternal kingdom and glory…
Anonymous
Troy Day posting on Sunday mornin again, eh?
Anonymous
Link Hudson post dated April 10, 2023 – check your settings if you are seeing it just now
Anonymous
Troy Day odd iy says 1 hr.
Anonymous
Link Hudson your timing is irrelevant here
Anything on the OP?”
How would you get saved during Trib if HS is removed?
Kyle Williams states NO on gets saved if the Spirit do not draw them
Oscar Valdez says ppl will still be saved by their holy works
Anonymous
Troy Day is there any reason to think the Spirit qill be removed at the coming of Christ.
Anonymous
Link Hudson I dont see one like I told Steve Losee but Oscar Valdez claims the removal of the Spirit is misquoting him – who knows?
Anonymous
The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.
The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.
The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:
1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).
2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).
5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?
1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).
3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).
The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire
Anonymous
Troy Day reading too many Left Behind books and not enough Scripture… there is zero scriptures that indicates belivers will avoid the tribulation.
Anonymous
???
Anonymous
Byron Meko Lorenz Frank ??
Anonymous
Troy Day https://followingmessiah.org/2020/08/14/the-reasons-why-christians-should-not-believe-in-a-pre-tribulation-rapture/
Anonymous
Byron Meko Lorenz Frank more spam?
Anonymous
Troy Day how is this spam?
Pretrib rapture is trash pop theology … unbiblical and gives Pentecostals a bad name.
Anonymous
Byron Meko Lorenz Frank did you hear this Oscar Valdez our poor brother dont have a clue virtually ALL early pentecostals were pre-trib He is lost in his welcoming NAR seeker church alike Philip Williams +more
Anonymous
Troy Day naww! They came from post-millennial Holliness!
Anonymous
Philip Williams you have said this lie before of course and I proved you wrong https://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/posts/5348936865161285/
FIY most of them came out of Baptist churches – free will in the South and so on. There are multiple thousands of records where early Pentecostals were kicked out from Baptists churches – your grandma perhaps too NOW I am posting the link where you first claim this just as a warning to re-read incase you want me to whoop your theological behind again on this
NOW then in ancient Greek democracy the word IDIOT was used to describe ἰδιώτης idiōtēs ‘a private person, individual’ (as opposed to the state), ‘a private citizen’ (as opposed to someone with a political office), ‘a common man’, ‘a person lacking professional skill, layman’, later ‘unskilled’, ‘ignorant’, derived from the adjective ἴδιος IMPROMPTU the original meaning conveys originally means: “one who is under illusion, of being separate from the whole, from universe “?
Anonymous
Philip Williams I argue that Wesley’s postmillennial views are rooted neither in an exegetical reading of Rev 20:1-10 (Scripture), nor the early church’s https://place.asburyseminary.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2416&context=asburyjournal
Anonymous
Troy Day NAR its posmill.. 100%!
Anonymous
Troy Day not into Peter C. Wagner … thank you
Ever read William J. Seymour, Smith Wigglesworth?…who are these early Pentecostals you speak of? I grew up in a Pentecostal movement graduated from a Pentecostal Bible college and am a minister in a Pentecostal fellowship… some believe in pre-trib rapture but the majority don’t hold to it because there is zero biblical evidence for it… it’s a man made doctrine. The early church didn’t believe it or teach it. It’s a new doctrine. Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.
It’s “a get me out of here, pie in the sky, wishful thinking” theology that leaves Christ’s Bride unprepared for His return.
Anonymous
Troy Day ‘it helps make the believer brave and steadfast in the face of persecution knowing that our redemption is at hand’
How does this help those Christians being slaughtered in Korea, Nigeria, and India today and those Christians through the ages who faced real persecution?
The Apostles joyfully faced persecution!
But God will cast all cowards into the lake of fire.
Anonymous
Philip Williams non of this is ANY proof of course-just NAR
Anonymous
Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 12:7-12 (KJV) 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs ok-and?
Anonymous
Troy Day from those texts, it appears that those who were killed during the great tribulation are saved. Unless you want to take a preterist approach and interpret those passages differently.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs you mean Israel?
Anonymous
Troy Day the original post says that the Holy Spirit is taken and no one can be saved during the tribulation. Meaning that no one can come to faith in Jesus Christ during the tribulation. So that would even include that Israel couldn’t come to faith either, which would mean that Israel couldn’t be saved.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs so now you support DUAL covenant?
Anonymous
The Holy Spirit is never “taken” at all.
However, there will come a day, in the middle of the Tribulation where the HS will be taken “out of the way.”
He will cease His restraint of evil allowing for the Man of Sin to be revealed to the world. Satan will be cast down, knowing his time is short (Rev. 12) and enter the world leader who deceived the world with false promises of “peace and safety,” and begin his reign of terror as Antichrist.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess …IF, you are still her during the first half of the 7-year tribulation period, you will be one of the left-behind, unsaved. If, you refuse the Mark of the Beast, you in all likelihood will be saved, and your soul will go to be with Jesus until His second coming, wherein you will receive your spiritual body, as well as will all the Old Testament saints…
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess ..what is your denominational belief.? Unless your ashamed of it…
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess yet the BIBLE specifically says TAKEN/REMOVED
Anonymous
TO-ALL…the restrainer, the Holy Spirit, will be taken out of the way when the Antichrist is revealed, prior to the commencement of the 7-year tribulation period according to scripture, revealed to those who truly believe..
Anonymous
Skip Pauley IF INDEED .the restrainer, the Holy Spirit, will be taken out then WHO will draw ppl into salvation? Duane L Burgess Kyle Williams themselves?
Anonymous
Troy Day .KEY BEING, taken out of the way, NOT REMOVED. The HS will be positioned in a similar way as it was before the resurrection…
Anonymous
Skip Pauley there is NO BIBLE to prove this
The BIBLE clearly says removed/taken out of the way (vv. 6–8)
not re-positioned – no such word in the BIBLE period
Anonymous
Troy Day …ENJOY A BIT OF TRUTH…Who / What is the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6?
Students of biblical prophecy have differing views over the identity of the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6–7. He is called “the one who restrains” in some translations (ESV, NASB); other translations call Him “the one who holds back” (NIV), “he who letteth” (KJV), or “he who is keeping down” (YLT). Whoever the restrainer is, He is someone of great power who is hindering the advance of the Antichrist and preventing the satanic kingdom from overwhelming the world.
In his second epistle to the Thessalonians, Paul assured the church that they were not yet living in the Day of the Lord, that is, the end times’ judgment had not yet begun. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 he says, “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.” According to God’s timetable, the Day of the Lord and the accompanying judgment will not start until two things happen: a global rebellion occurs and the Antichrist is revealed. Paul then mentions what is currently keeping the evil in check: “And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed” (verses 6–8).
Paul does not specifically identify what or who the restraining force is, since the Thessalonians already knew. Many scholars have speculated as to the identity of the restrainer, naming the restraining force as 1) the Roman government; 2) gospel preaching; 3) the binding of Satan; 4) the providence of God; 5) the Jewish state; 6) the church; 7) the Holy Spirit; and 😎 Michael the archangel. We believe the restrainer is none other than the Holy Spirit, or we could say the Holy Spirit working through the New Testament church.
Supporting the idea that the Holy Spirit within the church is the restrainer is the fact that the restrainer is referenced both as a thing (neuter gender, verse 6) and as a person (masculine gender, verse 7). Also, the power delaying Satan’s masterplan to unveil his false messiah must be of God. It makes much more sense to say that the Holy Spirit is curbing the devil than a political entity or even an angel. The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with sufficient (supernatural) power to do this restraining.
Of course, the Spirit works through believers to accomplish this. The church, indwelt by the Spirit of God, has always been part of what holds society back from the swelling tide of lawless living. At some point, Paul says, the Spirit will “step aside” from His restraining work, allowing sin to have dominion over mankind. Second Thessalonians 2:7 can be literally rendered, “The secret of lawlessness is already working, only it cannot be revealed until he who now withholds disappears from the midst.” We believe this “disappearing from the midst” will happen at the time the church leaves the earth at the rapture. The Holy Spirit will still be present in the earth, of course, but He will be taken out of the way in the sense that His unique sin-restraining ministry—through God’s people—will be removed (see Genesis 6:3).
Second Thessalonians 2 is clear that the removal of the restrainer’s influence precedes the revealing of the Antichrist. Given free rein during the tribulation, the lawless one will “use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders” to deceive the people of the earth (verses 9–10). After the Antichrist’s time is up, the Lord Jesus will return and overthrow the man of sin by “the breath of his mouth and destroy [him] by the splendor of his coming” (verse 8). Evil is restrained right now; once the Church Age ends, the hindrance to evil will be removed, and the rebellion will seem to be winning; however, the ultimate doom of evil is sure.
Anonymous
Troy Day …..there are so many like you that shoot from the hip…enjoy some more truth……HOLY SPIRIT (RESTRAINER) TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY…
Israel and the Old Testament
Israel’s salvation was individual and national. They believed by faith based on blood sacrifice that foreshadowed the True sacrifice of their Messiah (Jesus Christ) to come; this salvation was presented to them as an inheritance, a salvation that they would be receiving in the future. They also awaited for a future salvation of the nation of Israel at Jesus’ Second Coming. In the Old Testament, the Israelites had to build the Temple of God, the Holy Spirit did not indwell in them as a temple. The Israelites of the Old Testament never had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, yet when they believed by faith, their salvation was by the working of the Holy Spirit.
John 3:5-6 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Who is the Restrainer?
Now, Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is sound because quite simply put, the Holy Spirit who is the Restrainer, is removed from earth right before the Tribulation starts; to give Satan the freedom to release the antichrist on mankind, so that he can make himself known. The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer because:
He is the 3rd person of the Godhead.
He is a Person and He is a Spiritual being.
He is more powerful than Satan and can keep him in his place. (1 John 4:4)
The Holy Spirit even restrained Satan in the Old Testament.
Isaiah 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
The Holy Spirit’s ministry during our Church dispensation is to: empower each believer as it was in the OT and as it will be during the Tribulation. The big difference is that during the Church dispensation (the Bride of Christ) the Holy Spirit indwells each believer, each Saint’s body is a temple of God (1 Corinthians 6:19), and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit joins all Saints together in union as the Bride of Christ: the Temple of God. In the OT, the Temple was built by Israel, sacrifices took place in the Temple. Now in the Church dispensation, the Bride of Christ indwelt by the Holy Spirit is the Temple of God and Jesus Christ who is the Lamb died on the cross for our sins.
The church has taught us incorrectly that salvation equates to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life. If this is true then no one in the OT could have been saved as the Holy Spirit never indwelt believers, He was however WITH THEM. And The Holy Spirit will be WITH believers during the Tribulation and empower them.
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
When the Bride of Christ is ‘caught up’ to meet Jesus Christ in the air. The Holy Spirit who is the Restrainer who abides in (indwells) the Church then leaves the earth. Repeat: The Church leaves the earth. But we must NEVER VIEW this as though the Holy Spirit leaving the earth, or that the Holy Spirit is not omnipresent or that He becomes inoperative, or that the Holy Spirit has now left the earth permanently. Never! This is a lie that people who are against a pre-tribulation rapture love to promote.
The Holy Spirit’s who is the Restrainer, His office during the Church dispensation was that of indwelling the believer. Once the rapture takes place and the Restrainer who indwells the Church has been taken out of the way in a split second – a new dispensation will start, the Holy Spirit then stays, He will remain, He is eternal, omniscient and omnipresent.
Psalm 139:7-13 “Where shall I go from your spirit? or where shall I flee from your presence?”
Faith as always and the Holy Spirit
During the Tribulation salvation will be solely based on FAITH as it was in the Old and New Testament. Hebrews 11:1-40 makes that very clear. Faith is based on the cross, the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins. The Holy Spirit who was the Restrainer during the Church dispensation will not indwell believers during the Tribulation as He did during the church age. Believers will however still be born again during the Tribulation just as believers were during the Old Testament and the Holy Spirit will be with those during the Tribulation as He was with a child of God during the church dispensation. Tribulation Saints will not be without the Holy Spirit! They will be empowered!
“The special presence of the Spirit as the indweller of saints will terminate abruptly at the parousia as it began abruptly at Pentecost. Once the body of Christ has been caught away to heaven, the Spirit’s ministry will revert back to what he did for believers during the OT period. . . . His function of restraining evil through the body of Christ (John 16:7-11; 1 John 4:4) will cease similarly to the way he terminated his striving in the days of Noah (Gen. 6:3). At that point the reins will be removed from lawlessness and the Satanically inspired rebellion will begin. It appears that to katechon (‘what is holding back’) was well known at Thessalonica as a title for the Holy Spirit on whom the readers had come to depend in their personal attempts to combat lawlessness”. (1 Thess. 1:6; 4:8; 5:19; 2 Thess. 2:13). —Robert L. Thomas, 2 Thessalonians, in The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, Vol. 11, ed. Frank E. Gaebelein (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1978), pp. 324-25.
Outpouring of the Holy Spirit during the Tribulation
In Joel 2:28-32 it explains the salvation of Israel with regards to the ministry of the Holy Spirit during the Tribulation before the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ.
Conclusion
It is important to note that during the coming Tribulation, as it was in the Old Testament, that even though the Holy Spirit did not indwell believers, people were born again, just as we are today. Salvation of all believers depends solely on the work of Jesus Christ on the cross and only the Holy Spirit can baptize you INTO Jesus Christ by faith and faith alone in his finished work on the cross. We are in a New Covenant, and it will remain so even though the dispensation changes at the time the Tribulation starts. To believe by faith in the blood of the Lamb, that being Jesus Christ and his saving work on the cross, salvation will be made effect by the working of the Holy Spirit from the beginning of time (Genesis) right until the end of time (Revelation)
Anonymous
Skip Pauley pls show some own brains instead of this constant copy paste of someone elses works Do you not know the CHURCH is the RESTRAINER ?
Anonymous
Skip Pauley this is one of the better explanations from the dispensational perspective that I’ve seen. Did you write this or is it from someone else?
Though I do have some issues with it.
The OT saints were saved by their faith in God. And they believed and looked forward to a coming messiah king. They believed in a coming redeemer. Though I do not believe that OT Saints was necessarily born again. This is only a new covenant promise. The circumcision of the heart. Jeremiah 31:33 (KJV) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ezekiel 36:26 (KJV)
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
This is what happens when we’re reborn. This is a new thing. I do not see any hints of this going away and a different covenant being established during the 70th week. We look back at the cross and look forward to his second coming.
Perhaps, the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. Does his removal from restraining the anti christ ultimately mean the removal of the church or that he will no longer indwell believers?
Or could it just mean that the Holy Spirits presence over that particular person who is the anti christ will be removed. Perhaps the Holy Spirit has overcast his shadow over the anti christ keeping him hidden and keeping him from actually becoming the anti christ until the time comes. In some kind of hyper spiritual physical way. Similar but not exactly, Jesus’s physically left this earth and is sitting at the right hand of the father. Though we abide in him and he in us. And whoever is not abiding in him is cut off.
I don’t see how in any way anyone could overcome the anti christ and love not their lives to the death without being indwelled by the Holy Spirit.
I don’t see we could constitute a removal of the Holy Spirit off of one particular person and equating that to mean the entire church being taken out of the way. That just doesn’t make sense. It Especially doesn’t make sense, because 2nd Thessalonians 2 directly says that the man of sin must be revealed first and the apostasy must come first before the day of Christ can come that is our gathering together to him. 
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs OP states
If the Holy Spirit is taken after the Rapture, no one can be saved during the Tribulation…
not THAT the Holy Spirit is taken after the Rapture
I believe the Restrainer to be the CHURCH
Oscar Valdez claims SPIRIT is taken and only working in one last dispensation NOT in ALL disp. and not after the pre-trib Rapture
HOW would anyone be saved during Trib then?
Anonymous
Troy Day ..I know you don’t know what you’re talking about…and…as far as copy/past, I read everything I past before I copy/past it to makes sure it is with my understanding, and the reason people like you make issue of it is because you disagree with it and are unlearned…CAPICHE…AMEN…
Anonymous
Troy Day ..Knowing all have copy/past scripture, and you’re making issue of it, makes you look smaller than you really are…SAD…PRAYERS..
Anonymous
He’s omnipresent anyway
Anonymous
Steve Losee meaning WHAT exactly? The spirit cannot be taken THEREFORE the restrainer is the CHURCH? Duane L Burgess Ricky Grimsley Oscar Valdez
Anonymous
Troy Day NO, I’m convinced the CHURCH will be gone, but that doesn’t affect the Holy Spirit’s presence, EXCEPT as the Church manifests Him. People will still get saved, obviously. But the organism of the Church will be gone.
Anonymous
In the last days, the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh. Certainly not taken away!
Anonymous
Philip Williams well Duane L Burgess says removed / repositioned
Anonymous
Prove me wrong: “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.” – Jesus
Anonymous
And what was He referring to? He was just repeating Himself.
“So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the Lord your God has banished you, and you return to the Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, then the Lord your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. The Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.”
Deuteronomy 30:1-5
Anonymous
Your error of rapture theology is based on misunderstanding the back of the book, because you haven’t studied the front of the nearly enough. You need to rip out that mostly blank page between Malachi and Matthew. It is an imaginary barrier that unrighteous men put for a stumbling block to understanding.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire you still did not prove or even touch on the question from OP and BTW I studied the front back and middle for 70yrs now at a pretty high educational level AS Duane L Burgess rightly asserted this study of REV is pretty specific and not for everyone to take upon , now at which school and under what renown professor did you study the Bible GOD SON and the SPIRIT – one Holy Trinity ?
Anonymous
Troy Day I didn’t touch on the question from the OP because it is founded on a false premise.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire The conviction that Paul’s use of meet in 1 Thessalonians
4:17 is a technical term was then heralded by those opposing
pretribulationism as a knock-out punch against our understanding
of Scripture. Actually, to meet is used four times in the New Testament
(Matthew 25:1, 6; Acts 28:15; 1 Thessalonians 4:17) In a chart given at the
conference, under a reference to 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18, Stortz
said, “The word ‘meet’ in these two verses is a technical Greek
military term describing the returning military hero. The people
used to go out ‘to meet’ him and escort him back to the city This is why F. F. Bruce warns, “there is nothing in the word apanthsis or in this context which demands this interpretation; it cannot be determined from what is said here whether the Lord (with his people) continues his journey to earth or returns to heaven.” Link Hudson Brett Dobbs
Anonymous
Troy Day it can be determined. You simply have to read the scriptures that were being referenced. The Hebrew mind didn’t feel the need to explain something that should already be known. Both Jesus and Paul were referencing the scriptures, which explain it in detail. And the scriptures they were referring to were the only scriptures they had. What Chrisendom calls the “old Testament”.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire scripture given above and explained – What scripture are you reading and interpreting in your favor?
Anonymous
Jerimiah, Ezekiel, etc. The scriptures being refered to by Jesus in Luke 24, and Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4. Pay particular attention to Jer 31, but it is referenced multiple times. Pre-trib rapture come straight out of dispensationalist replacement theology, which is heavily influenced by chritianized paganism.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire yes Luke 24 refers to ISRAEL – you will not find resurrection in there to connect with 1Thes
1 Thessalonians 4. Paul speaks of pre-trib rapture clearly
be more specific on Jerimiah, Ezekiel, etc.
Anonymous
Troy Day exactly, you will not find rapture, however the resurrection is part of the Gathering up. That’s what was being spoken of. Caught up means to gather together not literally taken up☝️. The clouds if you look are reference to the martyrs, such a great cloud of witnesses. Air: ἀήρ, aér; air we breathe – pneuma breath – the Breath of God/Holy Spirit in the sense of this hebraic idiom.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire there is NO resurrection mentioned in Mt 24 Lk 21
The clouds by Paul are the actual sky clouds #sorry
Anonymous
Rapture is a very speculative doctrine and irrelevant for any practical purposes but let’s entertain the thesis. Could people be saved apart from the infilling of the Holy Spirit? First, let’s say this. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent so He is always present everywhere to everybody no matter when or where and that cannot change for any reason ever, because the Holy Spirit as God is by nature omnipresent. Two, people were able to believe and be saved during the Old Testament before The Holy Spirit was given as an infilling so yes if there was some so called departure of The Holy Spirit during a so called rapture, people could still be saved anyway.
Anonymous
Taylor D Barrett Are you Pentecostal?- I must agree here Link Hudson post-trib Rapture is a very speculative doctrine and irrelevant for any practical purposes
Anonymous
Troy Day Matthew 24 is very clear that tge coming of the Son of man is post tribulational –‘…after the tribulation.’
‘One shall be taken and the other left’ is set at this post tribulational coming of the Son of man. The coming of Christ. the church receives rest from tribulation when Jesus returns as recorded in 2 Thessalonians 1. I’ve been present for you for some kind of evidence for a pre-tribulation rapture. You reproduced the vague and esoteric interpretation that John being told come up hither somehow represents the pre-tribulation rapture. Talk about speculative doctrine.
Anonymous
The rapture is on the last day so their is no 7 yr tribulation. A man made doctrine from 1830.
Anonymous
Danny Payton once again Link Hudson Oscar Valdez placing rapture at the last voids trib and creates another major problem for post-tribbers. Pos-trib was NOT known till 1830 as the brother rightly pointed out here Gary Micheal Epping Ricky Grimsley Terry Wiles https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/?s=fathers++pre-trib
Anonymous
Troy Day the secret pre-trib rapture is not in the Bible. Made up by High level Masonic John Darby in 1830.
Anonymous
Danny Payton say who? what about Irenaeus who BELIEVED in a pre-Trib rapture Did you NOTread any of what I posted? https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/irenaeus-believed-in-a-pre-trib-rapture/
Anonymous
Danny Payton There is no available record of John Nelson Darby (November 18, 1800 – April 29, 1882) having any masonic association, nor is there any reason to suggest that he may have been a freemason. It is curious though, since many of the attacks on Freemasonry come from Dispensational Fundamentalists, that one of their leaders would use Freemasonry to illustrate his teachings. https://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/darby_j.html
Anonymous
Danny Payton as I told Oscar Valdez Iam NO disp BUT by the cheap shot you took on Darby you seem to know less than many Are you even pentecostal?
Anonymous
Troy Day
Many who are “wise” are “willfully ignorant” of many biblical truths. As for me I watch and wait being faithful to bring the Gospel which is the power of God unto salvation unto those who believe.
[2 Peter 3:5; Job 21:14; Zechariah 7:11-12; Matthew 13:15; Romans 1:28; Matthew 11:20-24; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Luke 21:36; 1 Thessalonians 5:9]
Anonymous
Terry Wiles “willfully ignorant” is right in this case Danny Payton
Anonymous
Troy Day, I don’t consider what I said about Darby a cheap shot. It is something I read about him in an article such as Wikipedia or historic account. The high up in the ranks of Disp. Sas possibly from a comment from someone. So I’ll no longer state this until I find where it’s documented so thanks for the challenge. Now why you would question my pentrcostalism on that statement baffles me though. I grew up Nazarene (definately not Pentecostal!!!)😀 but when I truly got saved it (1980s) was through an obscure Word Of Faith group. In the last 12 years I mostly attend a “black” Pentecostal church in Southern KY and on occasion a Vineyard Church nearby. That may make me more Charasmatic but I love studying Pentecostal history (and all church history.)
Anonymous
Danny Payton of course – let’s forGO Wikipedia and talk Pentecostal theology if you have any foundation in that field to share with us
Anonymous
Troy Day not sure it was Wikipedia but from a source. But studying the origin of a doctrine such as dispensation and the lives of those who started a new doctrine is part of studying theology.
Anonymous
Danny Payton not sure either. What about this here OP?
Anonymous
Troy Day that’s silly. Irenaeus’ comments can equally or better be interpreted as aligning with historic premil or with post trib. Pretrib doesn’t even have the church going through the trial Irenaeus wrote that it would dace. It would mske more sense to interpret his statements as aligning with the information or interpretations available at that time. There weren’t any exclusive Plymouth brethren or Southern Baptists in the 2nd or 3rd centuries for him to have learned pretribulationalism from. Where would he have got the idea. It isn’t taught in the Bible.
Anonymous
Troy Day not sure what your asking.
Anonymous
Troy Day ‘post’ in post trib comes from ‘after’. The idea of the coming of the Son of man ‘after the tribulation’ is found in Matthew 24, spoken about 1800 years before the time you suggest. I I Thessalonians 1 also speaks of the church recieving rest from tribulation at the coming of the Lord.
Anonymous
personally, I think the tribulation is going on right now. It seems to me four Trumpets have already sounded, and wormwood has fallen. Please do not ask me to explain this, because I could write a book on it.
Anonymous
Philip Warstler what are the exact signs you are observing? Ricky Grimsley had a word that it would begin SEPT 2022 but it did not really happened
Anonymous
Troy Day lol I’d didn’t have a word. I had an opinion.
Anonymous
If apophis is going to hit in April of 29 then then the tribulation can start anytime between now and sometime in 24.
Anonymous
Troy Day Churnoble killed millions of fish and made waters bitter. Some have suggested Chirnoble was wormwood.
Donald Trump was President. Donald means world leader. Trump means Trumpet. i don’t know if all the trumpets will be audible, but some are, like the Trumpets heard over Russia, and other parts of the globe.
https://strangesounds.org/2020/04/strange-sounds-sky-domodedovo-russia-video.html
Anonymous
Philip Warstler dont think Ricky Grimsley believes this just yet
Anonymous
Troy Day I thought Irvin Baxter died but apparently he was reincarnated as Philip warstler
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley ok ok but he is now Philip Williams as well
Anonymous
No he’s everywhere. Whose with the 144000 Jewish men who have never been defiled by women witnessing to the Jews. The tribulation is Jacob’s trouble. God turns back to the Jews when Jesus comes to take His Bride home.
Anonymous
Joan A Andrew NOW lets not add to scripture calling the Jewish and men which the BIBLE does not openly call them https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/who-are-the-144000-in-the-book-of-revelation/
Anonymous
We either change in a twinkling of an eye and be with Him or watch Him come back on a white horse. I want to twinkle and then come back behind Him riding a white horse.
Anonymous
tell it to Link Hudson and Skip Pauley
Anonymous
Joan A Andrew ..pardon me…”we are either changed in the twinkling of an eye”…NOT…we either change in the twinkling of an eye…Amen…
Anonymous
Joan A Andrew The Bible doesn’t present it as such a choice. The rapture occurs at the coming of Christ according to I Thessalonians 4.
Anonymous
Link Hudson according to I Thessalonians 4 The rapture is separate from the actual coming of Christ – clearly states IN THE CLOUDS… Return of Christ is on earth of course. A simply Greek course shall suffice
Anonymous
Troy Day Christ comes to earth after the clouds. We agree on this right. Where is the evidence of two coming of Christ events in the scriptures.
Anonymous
Link Hudson what two coming ?
Anonymous
Troy Day There is the coming of the Lord in I Thessalonians 4. I see no evidence for another one before the thousand years.
Anonymous
Link Hudson no other coming of course – you’ve got RAPTURE vs 2nd RETURN – explained to you 1000+ times COMING and GOING – that simple in the Greek. You can twist it in your western mindset BUT for the Jews Jesus spoke to was clear. The bride goes to the groom for the 7-day/yr wedding. Then they return to reign TOGETHER – so simply put in the BIBLE that even a 2yr old child can get it nonetheless a logical adult
Anonymous
Troy Day An for a parousia for a governing official coming into town, the people might go out to meet Him as He arrives to escort him into the city. How many times has this been explained to you. The people go and come back in this scenario, and it doesn’t need seven years.
Your argument is a very flimsy one to base the idea of Christ coming more than once after His ascension. Just show some scripture that says that He will return twice or that the coming of Christ takes seven years.
Then you have to justify using verses set ‘after the tribulation of those days’ to refer to events that occur before the tribulation. You would also have the issue with II Thessalonians 1 that the church receives rest from tribulation when Christ returns when Jesus comes to execute judgment on them that believe not. Erchomai is pretty simple in the Greek isn’t it?
Your argument is the sort of loose stuff pre-trib is based on– trying to argue that God has wrath toward Christians if they are on earth during the tribulation, the idea that if the wedding feast was 7 years, that the church has to be in seven years. Why does it say the marriage supper of the lamb has come in Revelation 19 instead of chapter 4?
This is the sort of stuff that pre-trib is based on, while the direct teaching of scritpure is ignore or swept under the rug.
There is also the problem of
Anonymous
Link Hudson yes this copy paste is problematic for your understanding…
Anonymous
Troy Day Did you copy paste? I just wrote that.
Anonymous
Link Hudson perhaps soon someone shall call you out as one who is given to a deprived or reprobate mind Romans 1:28 Yes such shall go through the Tribulation as you insist and I believe GOD will allow it in order to release his wrath on them as on Sodom and Gomorrah Matthew 10:15 BUT this has nothing to do with our Pentecostal expectation of the pre-trib rapture #over You have not yet proven any of your statements as long as I’ve known you 5+ years here. You drag and draw around cog forums, but you aint cog. God knows what church you are actually attend since you aint there Sunday mornings. There is the humanistic logical fallacy left in your writings that appears to be theological but way far from it as John Mushenhouse I do hope you were really cog while missionary but to tell you the truth you probably were not since you are not a cog member neither know their doctrine. #ohWell
Anonymous
soFAR=none
Anonymous
Troy Day maybe cause Holy Ghost already left you?
Anonymous
Prophetic expression requires judgment and critique. Failure for such to take place delegitimizes Scripture, the Church, and prophetic witness. Prophetic legitimacy demands accountability to the cross-shaped testimony of Jesus. Critique is essential and faithful,and not betrayal.
Anonymous
Michael the arch angel is the restrainer.
Anonymous
Justin Miller no way
Anonymous
Troy Day Daniel 12:1-3 Goes into the same details as Jesus in Matthew 24:15-21 and Mark 14:13-19
Anonymous
Justin Miller Matthew 24:15-21 and Mark 14:13-19 refer to ISRAEL alone as Duane L Burgess have explained many times. How do you relate it?
Anonymous
Troy Day How do you explain Matthew 24:29-31? Jesus said He was coming back in the clouds.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
I Thessalonians 4:16-17 NKJV
1 Thessalonians is synoptic with the text above, for in both we see Jesus coming back on the clouds. And there is a gathering in both texts. Also with the voice of the arch angel, well isn’t the arch angel Michael?
Revelation 6:12-17 gives the appointed signs to the coming of Jesus, listing the same signs as in Matthew and Mark. So we can assume that it occurs at the 6th seal. In Revelation 7:9-10 a great multitude of all nations, tribes and languages stood before the throne of God. Vs. 14 shows where they came from.
Anonymous
Nonsense. Because in the Last Days the Spirit will be poured out on all flesh. The Spirit must be present even to judge the earth.
Anonymous
Philip Williams not sure what you are commenting ON but many believe the SPIRIT shall be taken during trib like Oscar Valdez I do not think so though
Anonymous
Troy Day Why do you insist all the time under the same theme and moreover in a distorted way? I Don’t believe for a second what are you saying I believe regarding the Holy Spirit and salvation after the rapture.
Anonymous
IT SEEMS THAT YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE SPIRIT WORKING LIKE THE OLD TESTAMENT TIMES… HE WILL FOLLOW THE PATTERN OF THE PERIOD BEFORE PENTECOST RATHER THAN THIS PRESENT AGE OF GRACE.
Anonymous
https://dead2myself.com/2022/04/14/preparing-for-the-last-days/
Anonymous
Byron Meko Lorenz Frank relevance or is this spam?
Anonymous
MY KING JAMES ONLY BROTHERS OFTEN CLAIM THAT THEIR VERSION IS PERFECT, but it seems that II Samuel 15:7 disproves that. It has “forty years” for the time Absalom spent gaining influence for his rebellion, but that is impossible. Absalom was born after David became king (3:3), and David reigned about forty years (I Kings 2:11). Four years is undoubtedly correct, as in most modern versions, the Syriac, Arabic, and Josephus. To say that the forty years refers to something other than Absalom’s time spent gaining influence totally ignores the immediately preceding verses: “And on this manner did Absalom to all Israel that came to the king for judgment: so Absalom stole the hearts of the men of Israel. And it came to pass after forty years, that Absalom said unto the king, I pray thee, let me go and pay my vow, which I have vowed unto the LORD, in Hebron.” (II Samuel 15:6-7 KJV) (adapted from “Charisma Commentary on the Bible’) I’ve memorized over 6,000 verses from the KJV, but I’m against King James only. We have a reliable Bible,, but not a perfect Bible. The perfect Bible is in heaven: For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. (Psa 119:89 KJV)
Anonymous
OP is totally confused and biblically illiterate.
The Holy Spirit is never “taken.”
Yes, God redeems people during the 7 year Tribulation as He purges and cleanses ethnic national Israel.
The Church saints (beginning at Pentecost) will be taken in the Pre-Trib rapture.
In the middle of the Tribulation the Holy Spirit ceases His restraint of evil. He is taken out of the way, not taken away.
This allows Satan to be cast down, knowing his time is short (Rev. 12) to indwell the world leader, enter the Temple and commit THE apostasy of all apostasies: declaring himself to be god. He will begin his reign of terror and persecution of the saints.
Scripture proves you entirely wrong.
REPENT!
Anonymous
not sure who you are talking to Duane L Burgess
but I also think if the Holy Spirit is “TAKEN” no one would be saved
pls also note the ones who claim post-trib also claim the Spirit is the restrainer who is taken and BY THAT they admit they will not be able to be saved
The CHURCH as the Body of Christ is the REAL RESTRAINER who will be taken
Philip Williams Peter Vandever Brett Dobbs Ricky Grimsley do not believe it
Anonymous
Troy Day the church is the restrained? Proof text?
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs the church is NOT restrained? you read it wrong again
Anonymous
Troy Day oops sorry for the typo. It was supposed to say:
The church is the restrainer? Proof text that the church restrains please.
Anonymous
As in how is the church restraining the anti christ from coming into Jerusalem to commit the abomination of desolation?
The churches influence in Israel is very, very weak.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs we do not know HOW but we know IT DOES !
Anonymous
Troy Day right……. 🙃
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess if the HOLY SPIRIT is taken NO on can be drawn to JESUS to be saved
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess yup
Anonymous
Troy Day You are seriously confused. Many are.
In the middle of the Tribulation the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way (II Thes.2).
The context indicates that this is removing the restraint of evil, allowing AntiChrist to be fully revealed and to launch his reign of terror and destruction. (See also Rev. 12 – Satan cast down).
God will be redeeming people during the 7 year Tribulation. That is the work of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit has always been instrumental in salvation from Genesis to Revelation.
And God, the Holy Spirit is omnipresent.
Anonymous
Charles Lee Causey Sr. Duane L Burgess Neil Steven Lawrence Oscar Valdez WHAT ARE THE ISSUES? – The notion that one who has heard the Gospel and rejects it before the Rapture will
thus be unable to be saved in the Tribulation is argued from 2nd Thessalonians
2:10—12, which reads as follows: . . . and with all the deception of wickedness for those who
perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. And for this reason
God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, in order
that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”
Proponents of this view contend that God, through the Antichrist, will actively delude
those who do not believe. While this is true, nothing in the passage suggests that the
delusion is the result of an individual’s unbelief due to his rejection of the Gospel before
the Rapture. There are a number of reasons why I do not think that 2nd Thessalonians
supports this view.
Anonymous
Troy Day Only those who are deluded by Satan after having seen His “proof”, His sign (Mat.24:30) in the clouds of Heaven must face God’s wrath. The “faithful” (Rev.2:10) who wait for Him tor return for them will be gathered by the newly crowned King who still looks like Son of Man (Rev.14:13) …after His wedding to His dominion (Dan.7:13-14). And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately (Luke 12:36).
Anonymous
Charles Lee Causey Sr. THIS IS TRUE!
Anonymous
Troy Day The view “that one who has heard the Gospel and rejects it before the Rapture will thus be unable to be saved in the Trib…” is FALSE.
That makes salvation dependent upon man.
That essentially says that God has a “gotcha” clause.
As Jesus taught Nicodemus, God is sovereign in salvation.
There is none righteous, no one seeks after God.
Anonymous
He’s God; He’s omnipresent. The fact that He’ll go with the Church doesn’t mean He won’t also be here, though not operating through the Body of Christ anymore.
Anonymous
the church goes pre-trib
the Spirit stays Oscar Valdez
Anonymous
Steve Losee if the HOLY SPIRIT is taken NO on can be drawn to JESUS to be saved
Anonymous
Troy Day That’s why HE won’t be; WE will.
Anonymous
Steve Losee I agree 100% Neil Steven Lawrence Michael Chauncey
Anonymous
Oscar Valdez The rapture or Rapture is secret, if we knew the day and the hour we would all prepare for the glorious event, yet many would say they would wait until that last hour and minute, to seek to go with the Lord, so that glorious day if it is secret, nor the angels themselves will you know, only the Father knows.
So all Christians believe in that glorious event, but differ about a certain timeline or approximation because we interpret the passages relating to the subject differently.
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence POST-Trib FALLACY😳
There is no place in scripture which clearly shows the Rapture at the same time as the 2nd Coming.
I believe God allowed this mysterious event at the end times to be purposely vague so those with a pure heart could see the truth: the Rapture will come first before the Antichrist is revealed. Then the church which was “fake” will be LEFT BEHIND to suffer the Antichrist tortures and come to real faith in the midst of suffering.
2 Thes. 2 Order:
1. Rebellion/apostacy/falling away
2. “Restrainer”/Holy Spirit/ (in-dwelling the Church) taken out of the way > RAPTURE
3. Lawless one revealed>Great Tribulation begins
4. Jesus returns & destroys Antichrist with ‘breath”
Post-Tribbers can never answer the question:
“If the Rapture was actually at the end of the Great Tribulation, what are those who are “left behind“, left behind too?“😎👊🏼
Anonymous
Troy Day In the flood, the wicked were.
Actually look at the passages you refer to…
Matthew 24
29 “Immediately 👉after the tribulation of those days the sun…
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear…
they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven
…
38 Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and 👉took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
(NKJV)
Notice ‘one will be taken at the other left’ is in reference to the POST-tribulational coming of the Son of Man. Let’s stick with the actual meaning inthe Bible, not just ‘stuff pretribbers say.’
The phrase ‘second coming’ is not in the Bible. Parousia is. Elthe is. In II Thessalonians 2, we see that two things are associated with the parousia of the Lord.
I Thessalonians 2
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, (NKJV)
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (NKJV)
In I Thessalonians 4 is where we see the word caught up, which is associated with our English word ‘rapture’ because of the Latin translation of the passage. From that passage, we see that the rapture occurs at the coming of the Lord, which we can equate with the ‘gathering’ in I Thessalonians 2:1, above. Matthew 24:31 speaks of the gathering that occurs at the parousia of the Lord.
There is evidence that the rapture/gathering happens at the coming of the Lord. According to I Thessalonians 4, this immediately precedes the rapture. These events occur at the coming of the Lord.
There is evidence for the resurrection occuring at the coming of the Lord if we take the Revelation 19 passage as referring to the Lord’s coming. Immediately after that, we read about the beast and false prophet being casting into the lake of fire and the first.
So he gathering and the destruction of the lawless one happen at the coming of the Lord at II Thessalonians 2. The idea that the resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the Lord’s coming is explicit in I Thessalonians 4.
What you have not been able to produce any passage to support is the idea of the rapture occurring before the tribulation, or of an additional resurrection of the dead in Christ before the first resurrection. And that is a nonsensical position, if you think about it, especially since the part about their being a rapture before the tribulation is just assumed by pretribbers and eisegeted into passages, and not actually taught anywhere in scripture. At least that’s the evidence you have presented so far.
Anonymous
Link Hudson but Philip Williams says in the rapture will take the wicked and leave the church behind. ALSO before you connect the resurrection I Thessalonians 4 with MT24 you have to actually show resurrection in MT24 which you have not Neither has Brett Dobbs not sure about Ben Bottke
Anonymous
Link Hudson if the HOLY SPIRIT is taken NO on can be drawn to JESUS to be saved – how about you showing the word resurrections in MT 24? or LK 21 – Ill wait
Anonymous
Troy Day other scripture connects the rapture, gathering, resurrection, and tge destruction with the lawless one with the coming of the Lord. I Thes. 4. II Thes. 2.
I asked numerous times. But can you show some scripture that indicates there will be a pretrib rapture or that the coming of Christ is two more events? Try the Book of Crickets. That’s what I heard the last time I asked.
Anonymous
Link Hudson WHAT other scripture ?
Pls cite any for all of us to learn from your great baptist teaching
NEXT you will claim the Spirit will be taken
And ppl will be getting saved during Trib
#malarkee
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m not a pretribber like a lot of those Baptists and yourself. Why would I think the Holy Spirit will be taken during the tribulation? Why would Jesus say to His disciples ‘that He may abise with you forever’ if the Spirit was going to be removed?
Anonymous
Link Hudson I dont think the Spirit will be taken OR removed Fred Leon Stewart Oscar Valdez Robert Cox Neil Steven Lawrence Steve Losee
Anonymous
Troy Day
Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=7292441890790125&set=p.7292441890790125&type=3
Anonymous
Bob was a good man Oscar Valdez we did many conferences together BUT you posting book covers of books I read 50 yrs ago makes you NO Expert on anything You actually need to read the book and make it application in your theologizing – good luck being baptist 🙂 I was so right on this one
Anonymous
prove me wrong Oscar Valdez Duane L Burgess Link Hudson
Anonymous
Oscar Valdez if the HOLY SPIRIT is taken NO on can be drawn to JESUS to be saved – this is major problem in the DTS eschatology you support with Link Hudson
Anonymous
Troy Day don’t accuse Mr of supporting DTS theology when you are the pretribber, not me
Anonymous
Link Hudson that you are failing to find resurrection in MT24 speaks volumes not only of your disability to interpret BIBLE but your rules that basically exclude the Bible and cog doctrine from your world views Been tellin Brett Dobbs 2
Anonymous
Proof… for your to consideration: OUTER DARKNESS is the era of great tribulations ….There will be TWO gatherings of mankind, one before Great Tribulation and one at mid-tribulation. First by Son of Man before His marriage (coronation – Mat.24:30). The second at mid-tribulation after He has been crowned King (Rev.14:14). Before great tribulation begins, the Son of Man will gather Christians and leave unbelievers and lukewarm Christians behind in the era He identified as OUTER DARKNESS (a place without the light of the world – John 8:12). A place of such great tribulations (trials) as has never been nor ever will be again. However, at the appearance of His SIGN; every eye will see, every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. But, because they have been left behind (cast) into outer darkness, they will have to wait 1335 days (Dan.12:12) while suffering the horrors of Satan for Son of Man to return from His wedding (Luke 12:36). Then as a newly married and “crowned” King (who still looks like Son of Man – Rev.14:14), He will return from His wedding (Luke 12:36) at mid-tribulation (Day 1335) to harvest those who were converted by His SIGN and have been faithful to Him unto to their deaths (Rev.2:10). The faithful will be those who have not taken Satan’s mark (Rev.14:11) and have waited 1335 days (Dan.12:12) for the newly crowned King to return from His wedding (Luke 12:36). Then, after the mid-tribulation harvest, the wrath of God (Rev.14:9-11) will fall upon those who have taken Satan’s mark and worshipped the image of the beast (Rev.16:1-2). Then upon a planet (Earth) that has been cleansed of all evil, King Jesus will rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years …then after this, judgment.
Anonymous
Charles Lee Causey Sr. if the HOLY SPIRIT is taken NO on can be drawn to JESUS to be saved
Anonymous
Troy Day True, but there is no time or place without the Holy Spirit. He is the same yesterday and tomorrow. He cannot be limited.
Anonymous
Charles Lee Causey Sr. I Agree 100% and I’ve told Ricky Grimsley Oscar Valdez Link Hudson the HS cannot be taken or none will be saved Neil Steven Lawrence Nelson Banuchi Steve Losee Michael Chauncey including – – – the Holy Spirit will stay on earth during TRIB with israel in mt 24 lk 21 mk 13 Duane L Burgess the church shall be taken
Anonymous
Troy Day Agree 110%. Keep up your work. I know that our Father is pleased.