Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars
Click to get our FREE MOBILE APP and stay connected
| PentecostalTheology.com
Is Pre-Trib Consistent with II Thessalonians???
In II Thessalonians 1, Jesus comes back while the church is still here. When He comes back, He returns with flaming fire executing vengence on them that believe not. He does not just let them have a time of peace with the anti-Christ. Do you see the problem with pre-trib and II Thessalonians 1?
Some pretribbers argue that Revelation does not mention the church after a certain verse as present during the tribulation. (It uses the term ‘saints’.) But in II Thessalonians 1, the church is here at the ‘revelation’ of Jesus Christ. Yet, vengence is poured out on the ungodly then as well.
Why is the church still here when Jesus returns in II Thessalonians 1 if He already raptured them? If the chapter refers to the rapture, then why would Jesus execute vengence on them that know not God? Why doesn’t the passage have them enjoying a peace treaty with the beast, followed by judgment afterwards?
There is also this verse:
II Thessalonians 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
First, doesn’t it make sense that the ‘coming’ of Jesus is the same thing as the ‘revealing’ of Jesus spoken of in the same passage in chapter 1?
If pre-trib teaches on second coming of Christ, then how do you explain this verse? Why is ‘our gathering together unto him’ mentioned AFTER the coming of Christ instead of before it.
II Thessalonians 2:1 makes sense if the coming of Christ occurs before or at the same time as our being gathered unto Him.
If pre-trib were true, why doesn’t Paul say, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by our gathering together unto the Lord Jesus, and His coming seven years later…”?
Paul teaches the resurrection of the saints occurs at the coming of Christ.
I Corinthians 15:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
The dead in Christ rise first, immediately before the rapture. Paul calls the return of Christ when the dead are raised Christ’s ‘coming.’ So that is the Second Coming of Christ, right? What does pre-trib have Jesus coming back again. Where is the scripture to justify a belief in a Third Coming of Christ?
Shouldn’t we use these straightforward scriptures to interpret the allegorical passages liek the apoctalyptic literature of Revelation, rather than try to wrap the metaphors around a pre-concieved pre-trib theory? Is there any scripture that actually teaches pre-trib. I know there are passage that can be interpretted through the pre-trib rubric. But where does the Bible actually teach pre-trib?
Guest;
Do you make difference between a resurrection and an out-resurrection as used by Paul in used only in Phil. 3:11 and implies the resurrection of some men, the just from the unjust (Rev. 20:4-6). The dead “rise first,” then the living who are saved will be “caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess. 4:13-18).
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/biblical-defense-of-pre-tribulation-rapture/
Guest;
Well put Link. This fits very well with the white horse return. Of course, one can also ask where might a secret rapture fit within the parable of wheat and tares?
So why would anyone teach this secret rapture prior to the Lord’s Coming? As that Perry Stone clip indicates, it’s entirely a consequence of replacing the church with an Israel that denies Jesus as being the King of Israel. Go figure. It’s a replacement theology, but they cleverly accuse traditional Christianity of teaching replacement theology.
Guest;
This usual cherry picking type of posts is now liked by reformed-calvinists who through around terms like denying kingship. sovereignty and best of all replacement theology- something Pentecostals have never considered to begin with. Now Link Hudson is forced to agree with my long time warnings of such bapticostal mix of theology
But also, the CALL for straight forward interpretation aka literal understanding of Scripture will have to deal with Rev 4:1 Good luck twisting the Scripture with replacement theology on that one 🙂
Guest;
Actually not. The prevalent revivalist eschatology at the time of the Pentecostal revival was postmillennial. The Pentecostals were looking forward to a restoration of a church like the one on the day of Pentecost, hence our name.
And in fact the Dispensationalists were cessationists who believed the church was becoming apostate, the very opposite expectation of the Pentecostals, hence they attacked the Pentecostals.
But Pentecostals learned Dispensationalism at the Bible schools. When Dake pioneered this system within Perry Stone’s Church of God, it was a novelty there.
Guest;
Phillip how do you know Link Hudson is NOT reformed? He has presented in this group only baptistic theology thus far But this matter very little – could care less if you are or not reformed; the fact is that reformed arguments from reformed theology to counterpart a very valid Pentecostal eschatology that has been prominent within our tradition
FIY the prevalent eschatology among Pentecostals is STILL pre-mil and dont let no one tell you otherwise. Dispensationalism was forced by baptist seminary – Dallas
We’ve already established in this group Dake’s dispensations were a completely different thing
The church of God is not Perry Stones as a matter of fact no one knows if he is still cog
Anyhow, you may want to get your facts together
Start with pre-mil being the historic pentecostal teaching while I would like to see Link Hudson now siding with replacement theology and post-milenials just to prove my claim on his bapticostal theolofiX 🙂
Guest;
Premillennial does not equal Dispensationalist. The early Pentecostals were looking forward to the Latter Rain church. Don’t confuse this with the mid-century New Order of the Latter Rain. But how does a glorious Latter Rain Church fit with Dispensationalist theology?
Guest;
Moreover, Pentecostals were Arminian, reflecting their Holiness roots. How can you claim that we are Reformed?
Guest;
Philip what exactly are you saying with throwing all these terms around? Where are you getting from that Pentecostals are not preMillenial? Are yet another kingdom-now NAR supporter?
Guest;
Link Hudson:
Is Pre-Trib Consistent with II Thessalonians
In II Thessalonians 1, Jesus comes back while the church is still here. When He comes back, He returns with flaming fire executing vengence on them that believe not. He does not just let them have a time of peace with the anti-Christ. Do you see the problem with pre-trib and II Thessalonians 1?
Rico:
Jesus does not come back “while the church is here”, because Jesus promised escape from the tribulation period.
snip
” Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [a]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”(Lk.21:36 NKJV)
There is no way “to escape all these things…” and to stand before the Son of Man” ( who is in Heaven) without a rapture.
Furthermore,when “He returns with flaming fire (to) execute (judgement) on them that believe not ” , both angels and saints will be with him. Therefore, if the church saints return with Him, they cannot “still (be) here” ( as you stated).
snip
“Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with [a]You.(Zech.14:5 NKJV)
The saints who will not be with the Lord at His second advent are those who convert after the rapture ( like the elect Jews in MT) and those who do not watch and pray and reject Jesus promise to “escape all these things…and stand before the Son of Man”
Guest;
Link Hudson Until you actually offer a full eschatological plan of your belief ie what follows after what, it will hard to understand what you are saying and respond in a reasonable matter. I’ve asked you lots of questions to establish that so far but all I get is cherry picking like this post
George Hartwell
I am not really interested in Trib theology or rapture theology. I am interested in Christians investing in being God’s people right where they are. No escape from stewardship.
Varnel Watson
is a good steward safe from his Master’s punishment ?
George Hartwell
Seems the good steward is the one the master commends – ‘feeding him when he was hungry, etc. ‘
Varnel Watson
the one who is told – Come up here and enter the joy of thy master ?
Daniel J Hesse
Michael Brown and Craig Keener have a different opinion.
Varnel Watson
is their book out yet? do you have it – what was the title Dancing with the antiChrist?
Daniel J Hesse
.yes
Varnel Watson
VII. Ancient Wedding Practice:
Bridegroom Comes for His Bride
When the bridegroom’s father deemed the wedding chamber ready, the father would tell the bridegroom that all was ready and to get His bride. The bridegroom would abduct his bride secretly, like a thief at night and take her to the wedding chamber. As the bridegroom approached the bride’s home, he would shout and blow the shofar (ram’s horn trumpet) so that she had some warning to gather her belongings to take into the wedding chamber. The bridegroom and his friends would come into the bride’s house and get the bride and her bridesmaids.
Jesus’ Fulfillment: Bridegroom Comes for His Bride
Just as the bridegroom would come for the bride in the middle of the night, with a shout and the sound of a shofar, so the Lord will come for us. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
VIII. Ancient Wedding Practice:
Seven Days in the Wedding Chamber
The bridegroom would take his bride to the wedding chamber where they would spend seven days. The bridegroom’s friend would wait outside the door of the wedding chamber. When the marriage was consummated, the bridegroom would tell his friend through the door, and the friend would announce it to the assembled guests. The guests would celebrate for seven days until the bride and bridegroom emerged from the wedding chamber. At this time the groom would bring his wife out and introduce her to the community.
Jesus’ Fulfillment:
Seven Days in the Wedding Chamber
Ancient Jewish eschatology taught that a seven year “time of trouble” would come upon the earth before the coming of the Messiah. During that time of trouble, the righteous would be resurrected and would enter the wedding chamber where they would be protected from the time of trouble. Today that seven year period is referred to, by Christians, as the Tribulation, and as Birth Pangs by the Jews. After 7 years in Heaven the Groom, Christ, will bring His wife to Earth and at the time of His Second Coming He will introduce her to the community on Earth.
IX. Ancient Wedding Practice:
Marriage Supper
After seven days in the wedding chamber, the bride and bridegroom would emerge and participate in a feast with friends and family. There would be joyous celebrating during this feast. The feast would conclude the wedding celebration.
Jesus’ Fulfillment: Marriage Supper
As the bride and bridegroom celebrated with a joyous wedding supper, so Jesus and His bride, the church will celebrate the marriage. Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints) Then the angel said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!'”. Revelation 19:6-9
X. Ancient Wedding Practice:
Depart for Home
Jesus’ Fulfillment: Depart for Home
Just as the bride and bridegroom left the marriage supper to go to the home that the bridegroom had prepared, so Jesus and His bride will depart for their new home. “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes… One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me,
“Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
From the pattern of the ancient wedding practices, we see that, like the bridegroom of ancient times, Jesus came to the home of His bride for the betrothal, made a covenant with His bride and sealed it with a glass of wine, paid the bride price with His life and sent His bride gifts of the Holy Spirit.
We, the betrothed (Christ’s Church ) currently await the return of our Bridegroom to take us to the wedding chamber (the rapture ) to spend seven years (while the tribulation occurs on Earth ). We will then celebrate the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and depart with our Bridegroom for our new home, the new Jerusalem. ~ Revelation 21:1-4,