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David John Maxfield | PentecostalTheology.com
Post trib or pre trib rapture?
Steve Webb [09/15/2015 8:40 AM]
Pre-Trib https://youtu.be/nGPx5hah_qo
Steve Webb [09/15/2015 8:48 AM]
Or a much better defense: http://youtu.be/mN960T7Qq1A
John Kissinger [09/15/2015 9:58 AM]
#PREACH
Ricky Grimsley [03/09/2016 10:21 PM]
Neither. Pre-wrath.
Kerry Collins [03/09/2016 11:24 PM]
Pre trib
Ricky Grimsley [03/10/2016 12:17 AM]
I would love to hear how 2 Thessalonians chapter doesnt destroy pretrib?
Michael Marquez [03/10/2016 12:35 AM]
PreTrib all the way. God used that message to bring me to a place of repentance. I was not “scared into the kingdom”. But I knew what I was hearing was true and I needed to make a decision. Some think the PreTrib teaching is unscriptual and of the devil. But we must remember that God does not use the devil and false teaching to draw people to Christ. God draws you through Truth not lies.
Ricky Grimsley [03/10/2016 8:11 AM]
Jude says “saving with fear” is a valid thing but pretrib rapture is easily disproved. Pretrib is unscriptural but i wouldnt say it is lies, just misunderstanding.
Ricky Grimsley [03/10/2016 8:20 AM]
1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 let you know that the “day of the lord” at least starts with the rapture. 2 Thessalonians lets you know that “that day” will not come until after a great falling away (apostasy) and the man of sin (antichrist) is revealed. I could go on all day but what more do you need.
Ricky Grimsley [03/10/2016 8:21 AM]
If anyone is interested. Here is a good teaching. https://youtu.be/JV2txxxdVEQ
Ricky Grimsley [03/10/2016 8:22 AM]
The pre-wrath position keeps a consistent view.
Troy Day [03/10/2016 10:03 AM]
Ricky Grimsley 2 Thess.2 has no relevance here. Dont be a one trick pony, brother 🙂
Ricky Grimsley [03/10/2016 10:24 AM]
How is 2 thess not relevant? Also. When will christ leave the father’s right hand…..not until his enemies are his footstool. When is that. Psalm 110:1 KJVS [1] The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Brody Pope [03/10/2016 10:29 AM]
Put that an arrow pointed upward (to show the rapture of the church) before the tribulation period and then an arrow pointed down (to show to coming of the Lord for the millennial reign) after, and you got it.
Ricky Grimsley [03/10/2016 10:32 AM]
Sounds great in a sermon but isnt scriptural.
Brody Pope [03/10/2016 10:38 AM]
The bible says that WE (the church) are not appointed unto wrath. The Jews however must go through the tribulation.
Ricky Grimsley [03/10/2016 10:41 AM]
Yes and thats why i hold to the “pre-wrath” view. We arent arent appointed to “God’s” wrath. God’s wrath is well after the midpoint. We will see the wrath of man and the wrath of satan as many of our brothers in christ now experience throughout the world.
Troy Day [03/10/2016 11:00 AM]
AMEN!
Brody Pope [03/10/2016 11:05 AM]
I take it as that we are not appointed unto any wrath.
Charles Page
Samuel Rodriguez is post trib
Carl Murphy
Neither no trib
Shawn Herles
Neither.
Varnel Watson
Clearly an influence from NAR’s Christian reconstructionism bringing a-millennial views within Pentecostalism that were never historically present within Pentecostal eschatology William DeArteaga David Willaim Faupel David M. Hinsen John Conger Ricky Grimsley Terry Wiles
Ricky Grimsley
Prewrath
Carl Murphy
The idea of certain period of tribulation and a specific man called the antichrist is less than 200 years old. There is no reference anywhere in revelations that refers to “the antichrist”.
Rico Hero
The White Horse Rider is the Antichrist
Revelation 6:2King James Version (KJV)
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Ricky Grimsley
Didnt martin luther think the pope was the antichrist?
Carl Murphy
And before that Nero and after that every political leader that came along up to and including Obama
Ricky Grimsley
So what new belief are you referring to in your 200 year statement.
Carl Murphy
The premise of the pre mid post rapture, that there will be one named the antichrist. the Bible speaks of anyone that is opposed to Jesus as a spirit of antichrist but it doesn’t represent an individual
Ricky Grimsley
He has many names. The assyrian, the prince that shall come, the wicked, son of perdition, the beast, the little horn, etc…..all these are imaginary?
Nathan Hellrung
Pre-trib rapture. But, none of us can prove either wrong or right, so it’s utterly pointless in all honesty to debate it.
Ricky Grimsley
But cant we disprove pre-trib though? 2 Thessalonians?
Nathan Hellrung
Can you?
Ricky Grimsley
Does not Paul make clear that the day of the lord or the day of christ is his coming our gathering unto him which he says will not
Happen until after a falling away and the “son of perdition” being revealed? His writings in 1 Thessalonians seem to also agree as he seem to equate the day of the lord with the rapture. So it seems that the rapture can also not happen until after the falling away and the wicked is revealed? So at least antichrist must be here but most would say he isnt revealed to the abomination of desolation at the midpoint of the trib?
Nathan Hellrung
Would you mind citing scriptures that deal with your points?
Ricky Grimsley
1. The day of the lord is started by the rapture and includes his return to earth however long it takes. Ignore the chapter break between chapters 4and 5 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJVS
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 KJVS
[1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. [7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. [8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. [9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Carl Murphy
Sounds to me like the second coming. Where in all the saints living and dead will be “raptured”. Which brings up yet another point of contention. What happens when you die? Do you go immediately to heaven or are you asleep in Christ? Scripture for both viewpoints. After all if you are in heaven already why do you have to come back and pick up your trashy body?
Ricky Grimsley
In the pre-wrath view the rapture and the second coming are back to back events. The second coming starts withe the rapture and ends with armageddon. The day of the lord is a euphemism for everything that happens and is more than one day.
Carl Murphy
Again, if and and buts
Ricky Grimsley
Prewrath also takes into account the cosmic signs.
https://youtu.be/imSHBDt1xKM
Ricky Grimsley
2. The day of the lord will not come until the Wicked or son of perdition is revealed. Notice the the coming of jesus and our gathering to him are both mentioned here. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJVS
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Ricky Grimsley
3. The revelation of the wicked one is place at the midpoint by jesus’s reference of 9:27. Matthew 24:15 KJVS
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Varnel Watson
pre-trib is the original Pentecostal teaching. Everything else is a wishful thinking. Meaning, you wish to go through the Great Tribulation that has never been seen since the foundation of the worlds. Go right ahead!
Ricky Grimsley
Where is any scriptural evidence for pretrib though?
Nathan Hellrung
1 Thess. 1:9-10 and 5:9 both speak of the church not being appointed to wrath. Believers also will not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord, this is found in 1 Thess. 5:1-9. We also see in Revelation 3 that the church is promised to be kept from the “hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world” The church is seen many times in Revelation but is not seen between chapter 4 through 22. In the entire Tribulation scene in Revelations, the church is not present. There’s also the distinction between Israel and the church with God’s plans being separate for each. The Tribulation is a time of purging and restoration for Israel and Jerusalem, not for the church.
Nathan Hellrung
Again though, we can go in circles trying to disprove each other. I think the main thing though is that there will be a Rapture and there will be a Second Coming. When exactly those events will happen is not spelled out clearly in scripture and doesn’t change my faith in God. God bless.
Ricky Grimsley
We are not appointed to the wrath of God but that doesnt start until almost the end. Thats why i believe post trib is wrong.
Nathan Hellrung
Almost the end? What’s your scriptural proof for that?
Ricky Grimsley
https://youtu.be/imSHBDt1xKM
Nathan Hellrung
Daniel 9 shows us that at the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation, a peace treaty will be signed with Israel by the Antichrist. Its halfway through this treaty that the Antichrist will break the treaty and begin to persecute the Jews. Your claim that the “wrath” doesn’t start till almost the end conflicts with Daniel.
Ricky Grimsley
We are not appointed to God’s wrath but there is no logical way we do not suffer wrath now. There are countless numbers of martyrs to give accout of the wrath of satan now in the earth. There is all kinds of wrath going on but God’s doesnt start till the trumpets and vials well after the midpoint. The first half of the tribulation is the wrath of men and satan but not God
Nathan Hellrung
There’s an obvious difference between the persecution we face as Christians today and what the Jews will face in the Tribulation. We are not appointed to the wrath that the Jews will face.
Ricky Grimsley
Really????people are being burned and having their heads chopped off.
Nathan Hellrung
You believe that’s God’s wrath?
Ricky Grimsley
No thats my point. That none of it is Gods wrath until the bowl and trumpet judgements which may be inside the sixth seal.
Nathan Hellrung
You don’t believe that the last half of the Tribulation is God’s wrath? That it’s only at the final battle?
Nathan Hellrung
I agree that the last half of the Tribulation is “Satans wrath” and the end of it is God’s wrath, but to say that what we are seeing today as persecution is the same as what will happen during the Tribulation is where I disagree.
Ricky Grimsley
Christians in syria or china might disagree but my point is that we are already experiencing some degree of “wrath” and it isnt God’s.
Carl Murphy
And you know original Pentecostal teaching is correct? Is that not where the oneness moment came? And how about all the prosperity preachers, where forth did they come?
Ricky Grimsley
This is perry stone’s chart explaining pretrib.
Charles Page
diagram for Open Theism!!
Ricky Grimsley
Touche’
Varnel Watson
There’s a fine line between rethinking your theology and openly abandoning your Pentecostal roots. This is how we lost speaking in tongues to most charismatics today. Pentecostal eschatology should not be part of such borderline theologizing. Except if we wish to count it too toward abandoning Pentecostal roots http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/abandoning-your-roots-vs-rethinking-your-theology/
Ricky Grimsley
My eschatology comes from the bible. Not from what my parents told me.
Varnel Watson
In most probability your eschatology comes from the way you interpret the Bible. Can we trust that one’s interpretation is always right?
Charles Page
what else do we have but our interpretations?
Varnel Watson
Charles Page You have also your connection at NewsChannel 9 http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/newschannel-9-to-investigate-snake-handling-as-a-religious-practice/
Rico Hero
Pre-Trip because we are promised escape from all these things and stand before the Son of man.
Luke 21:36New King James Version (NKJV)
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy[a] to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Post Trip is generally taught by ammillenial and Covenant
Pre-wrath is also Covenant who mistake the church as the Isreal of God
Ricky Grimsley
To escape something you have to be in it first….right?
Rico Hero
Wrong.To escape is to break free, to get out of a situation you don’t want to be in.
Ricky Grimsley
You cant break from something if it doesn’t have you. You cant get out of a situation that you arent already in. Thats just logical.
Rico Hero
If war is coming and you leave before it arrives, you have escaped all things. Come up here and I will show you what must take place after this..just like John was taken to heaven and watched the rise of the antichrist going out to conquer, so will those who watch and pray to escape all things
Rico Hero
If war is already come and has taken half your city and then you flee, you havent escaped all things.
Rico Hero
Nor are you standing before the Son of man
Ricky Grimsley
Again you can escape if your arent in it.
Rico Hero
Thats right. You can escape if you are not in it.(escape all things). Those who escape when they are in it, do not get raptured ( do not escape all things)
Charles Page
oh lord
Ricky Grimsley
The people he was talking to didnt escape. They all got martyred except john. Also the context of luke is a little different anyway because it is talking about 70 ad. Imo
Rico Hero
Ricky Grimsley
You hold that the church is the Isreal of God, right?
Ricky Grimsley
No we are two separate branches with the same root.
Rico Hero
Okay. In Mt.24, it will be the Isrealites, not the church, who will see the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place–in the Jews Temple. The church would have already escaped all things as promised 3.5 years before this when the Antichrist goes a conquering.
The church is raptured at or before the formation of the 10 kingdoms to allow the Antichrist, the little horn, to rise and go conquering as seen by John from heaven. We will also from heaven see him rise and go conquering for we are promised to escape all these things.
Those Isrealites that will see the abomination will not have escape all things and stand before the Son of man. They will flee to the mountains. The analogy given in this chapter also confirms no rapture. In the days of Noah, they were taken to their death and the 8 left alive in the arc. They were not raptured. Likewise, those that are left will be those who flee to the mountains.
Ricky Grimsley
Where in matthew 24 is the rapture?
Rico Hero
Matthew 24 is the so called pre-wrath chapter. Mt.24:15l they say wrath begins. Mt.24:30, 36-42, they see as the rapture.
Rico Hero
2 years ago, I joined a dispensation group and learned all about pre wrath from a guy with a masters that preaches it.
I end it up leaving that group because they really were not dispensational and they also demanded the members believe in OSOS.
Ricky Grimsley
The reason i ask is because in each list of events the pattern begins the same. False christs, wars, pestilence, death. Yet the pretrib position will say the these are the signs leading up to the rapture but revelation has the false christ as the first seal?
Ricky Grimsley
What is OSOS
Rico Hero
Sorry. OSAS. Once saved always saved.
Im off to work.
Have a nice day !
Ricky Grimsley
Be blessed
Rico Hero
Ricky Grimsley
You said, ” the pretrib position will say these are the signs leading up to the rapture, but Revelation has the false christ as the first seal”
Rico:
The Pre-Trib position would never say those signs lead to the rapture because A) there is no rapture taught in Matthew 24 and B) antichrist is revealed in the first seal– which takes place at the start of Daniels 70th week, not in the middle of Daniels 70th week when he sets up his image in the Jewish Temple that causes an abomination.
A) the rapture is the catching up of Christians to meet the Lord in the air. There is no catching up here in Mt.24. People are told to flee to the mountains.
15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ( Mt. 24 ESV)
Those signs in Mt.24:3-7, lead to the great tribulation ( middle of Daniels 70th week) and the second coming to earth to rule with His saints ( at the end of Daniels 70th week).
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Mt.24 ESV)
Key word, “after”. It’s after,not before the tribulation they will see the Son of Man (v 29-30). This is the second coming, not a rapture.
38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. ( Mt. 24 ESV)
In the day of Noah, they were taken to their death, swept away. 8 people were left alive in the arc. Likewise, those who flee to the mountains will be left alive. Those who don’t flee will be taken to their deaths .
14 Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. 5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zechariah 14 ESV).
B) antichrist is revealed when he comes to power and makes his 7year covenant, not in the middle of the week when he breaks the covenant. I can elucidate , but it’s late here and I am tired.
William DeArteaga
I am a “Pan” trib person. God will have it all pan out.
Varnel Watson
Yeah no 50/50 theology here. It’s either or. You are either raptured before the Tribulation or left behind…
Varnel Watson
Pre-Trib https://youtu.be/nGPx5hah_qo
Or a much better defense: http://youtu.be/mN960T7Qq1A
Scotty Searan
Pre-wrath is what I believe
David Lewayne Porter
Closest to it.
Debbie Coone
Pan Trib……it’ll all pan out in the end.
Joseph Kidwell
Pre-Trib.
Varnel Watson
Pan-Trib is like Pan-Am. Sounds great but is short gone…
Varnel Watson
Pan-Trib is like Pan-Am. Sounds great but is short outlived and long gone…
Ricky Grimsley
We need to cover some now ground in this discussion. Regardless of what any church father or theologian or left behind author says…….Paul said that day will not come till the antichrist is revealed.
Joseph Kidwell
The church is the restraining force which is keeping him from being revealed.
Ricky Grimsley
How can that be?
David Lewayne Porter
Have you ever noticed how pre-tribist relate current day events to Matt 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13, not to mention the beginning seals of Rev.
How can they be pre-trib believers and use post rapture events to prove their pre-tribist stance?
I don’t buy it.
A double minded man is unstable in all of his ways.
Ricky Grimsley
Thats what i was trying to get to with my other post but got distracted. “It just the sign of the times” wars and rumors of wars” but then say matthew 24 is just for the jews.
David Lewayne Porter
You know.
That is why I stopped watching Jack Van Impe.
You can’t claim Matt 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 and the happenings of the first seals if you are a pre-tribist at Rev 4:1&2.
You have got to have more than an open door and being catch up in the Spirit.
Scotty Searan
The Pre-trib rapture interpretation did not have it’s beginnings till the early 1800’s. None of the early church father’s believed in it.
If the church is the restraining force and so many teach that the Holy Spirit will be gone. Then how do you reconcile these verses.
Acts 2:14-21 King James Version (KJV)
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Joel 2:28-32King James Version (KJV)
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
Matthew 24:29-31King James Version (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Luke 21:25-27King James Version (KJV)
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Mark 13:24-27King James Version (KJV)
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Revelation 6:12-17King James Version (KJV)
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Jesus Christ said that this would happen.
Joel prophesied and Peter said this is that that was prophesied, and if the Holy Spirit has fallen, which it has where is the gap where it will be taken away before the Great day of the Lord.?
Varnel Watson
Scotty Searan This claim is simply not true. In short, the objection is that rather than being a real part of the Bible, the entire idea of a pre-Great Tribulational Rapture was just an invention by Darby and “not even heretics” ever used it. This is very strong language, but is it true? Were there no ancient Christian writings about the church being Raptured before Great Tribulation? An examination of early church writings shows that this charge is false and there were some church fathers who indeed wrote about the Rapture. Most Ancient Church Fathers Believed in Pre-Trib Rapture see here http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
David Lewayne Porter
The early church believed in the eminent return of Christ μαρὰν ἀθά μαρὰν ἀθά1 Cor 16:22.
So much so the church had to be reassured by Paul that they had not missed the day.
But in light of that belief You have to address;
Persecution, tribulation, and great tribulation.
What most people consider as tribulation is actually the “Great Tribulation” Matt 24:21.
They also seem to forget Daniel 12:1-2.
And Jeremiah 30:7.
Matt 24:3 the disciples asked three questions which Jesus answers. The three separate questions and the answer’s given within the same setting give most readers their issues.
Dan Irving
There is only one future Parousia.
Varnel Watson
Not sure if Mt. 24 OR μαρὰν ἀθά indicates much about the rapture here – both being early hebreistic references to the Apocalypse DAKE explains https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf0K68CZpfU&feature=youtu.be
Ricky Grimsley
If you are a pre-tribber how many verses can you quote to support your position? Nothing in the gospels because matthew 24 luke 21 and mark 13 begin their signs after the rapture (supposedly”. So lets see we have revelation 4 “after these things i heard a voice say come up hither”? And then of course we have 1 Thessalonians 4 which just says there is a rapture with no sequence. Also 1Corinthians 15 with no sequence. There is no definite pretrib proof. All you can do is quote scriptures that say there is a rapture and take Thessalonians out of context because clearly Paul is talking about the day of the lord.
Varnel Watson
Ricky Grimsley pls watch the video first DAKE provides overwhelming evidence to what you just out out there
Ricky Grimsley
I was raised with this bible in my crib. Its not evidence. Its just speculation.
Ricky Grimsley
Lol look how it starts. “After these things”. He just assumes after the churches instead “after this vision” or after Jesus was don telling John about the churches”. Its not a fact.
Varnel Watson
Then you should know When will the signs of Matthew 24 take place https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra6EPr1HXj4
Ricky Grimsley
Why should pretribbers know anything about matthew 24. Its the same as revelation 6.
Varnel Watson
Dake is right on the money with his interpretation in regard of what you just said
Varnel Watson
Ricky Grimsley Dake is right on the money with his interpretation in regard of what you just said
Varnel Watson
here we go Clarence Bro Cope prove to us HOW a persecuted church today would be wanting more persecution GO !
Clarence Bro Cope
You don’t want persecution because you love your comfort, your pleasure, and YOUR safety more than you lover God.
A person who loves God will not shy away from the persecution because they love God more.
Clarence Bro Cope
Not you however. God is not interested in delivering you from suffering because He uses your suffering to test how much YOU LOVE HIM.
When Jesus asked me if I would suffer for His sake, I considered it a great honor that the Lord would ask me to suffer for Him, just as He suffered for me.
He asks you if you are willing to suffer for Him, and you give Him the finger.
Varnel Watson
Revelation 3:10 says OTHERWISE – if salvation was through testing not through faith no one can be saved through testing their works
Dennis D. Niles
Not again…
Varnel Watson
Here we go again…
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day yeah… the faith and works issue was pretty much settled 500 years ago in the Reformation. So all this talk of: true believers must suffer in the great tribulation is beyond weird to me!
For sure tens of millions of unbelievers will be born again & suffer for their faith during the great tribulation. But that is why the great tribulation is actually God’s mercy upon people to bring them to their senses!
When viewing the span of God’s plan in history it seems he has several different types of harvests he is and will perform. Why do the post-trib people think that all the harvests will happen at the same exact moment. They really have to do some exegetical gymnastics to make it happen.
The weirdest idea of the post-trib view is: the way they compress the rapture and the second coming into one event. It doesn’t make sense that we would be caught up in the air, thrown on horses and come back down with the Lord to defeat the antichrist armies all in the same split second! Aren’t we supposed to eat the Lamb’s supper before that happens? – How rude of the post-trib god to invite us to heaven and never give us anything to eat before he throws us on horses! ?
Link Hudson
Jesus died for our sins, not to save us from tribulation. He said, “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome.the world.”
I do not know of anyone who believes in post-trib because they want to prove how great they are to Jesus. That seems a rather strange idea. Revelation speaks of the saints that overcome during that time and presents them in a positive light. It does not make them sound like rejects who were not good enough for the first trip up.
I can only find one Second Coming in the Bible.
Link Hudson
Neil Steven Lawrence From what I have read, ‘parousia’ was used to refer to dignitaries, royalty, ambassadors, etc. visiting a city. It was the custom to go out and meet them and usher them in. Think of something that resembles the Triumphal Entry in the gospels, a jubulant growd going out to meet someone and to escourt him into town.
I do not know why you think pre-trib is weird. Take a look at how ‘parousia’ is used throughout the New Testament.
Consider something that happens at Jesus’ parousia:
II Thessalonians 2
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
We see that the wicked one, which I think we would agree is the man of sin, will be destroyed at the brightness of Jesus’ coming. That ‘coming’ is the ‘parousia.’
But we also see that the rapture happens at the ‘parousia’. Pre-trib has the man of sin being revealed AFTER the rapture. Paul shows us the rapture happens at the parousia, and that the wicked is destroyed at the parousia.
Look at I Thessalonians 4
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. (ESV)
Look at verse 15. Why would Paul say ‘we who are alive, who are left until the coming [parousia] of the Lord”? if the godly saints were going to raptured seven years before the Lord’s parousia?
Neil Steven Lawrence
Link Hudson The entire context of I Thes 4:14-17 is the Rapture. No where here is it referring to the second coming of Jesus on the earth.
He gives the order of our bodies entering heaven: first, those who have already died in Christ up to the time of the rapture; second, those who are still on the earth who are in Christ at the time of the rapture.
Maybe your confusion is that you think the word ‘parousia’ can only refer to ‘coming to the earth’ when in fact it is clear from multiple corresponding scriptures that it is also referring to his “coming in the clouds.“
Varnel Watson
‘parousia’ is NOT used exclusively foe ONE event It is high time Link gets with the Greek and figure it out
Link Hudson
Troy Day You posted a long discussion a while back from the B-Greek list where someone tried to argue this was a possibility. But it certainly seemed unconvincing that this was an actual inherent characteristic of the Greek word. It seemed more like something some pre-tribbers among them were trying to argue to still get the pre-trib narrative to fit with the text of scripture– the same thing pre-tribbers work so hard to do when they are working with English, too.
My understanding is not that ‘parousia’ means ‘an event’, per se, but in the case of Christ actually showing up, that will be. How can Christ’s parousia be going on if He is supposed to be gone? Isn’t that departing from what the word actually means?
Can you show me an example in Greek where ‘parousia’ was used to refer to a visit or new occupancy of a dignitary where the dignitary was not present?
If the parousia lasts for seven years, do you think we have seven years of ‘presence’ of Jesus, of ‘royal visit’ of Jesus? Would he have to be in the air descending all that time for it to be a parousia?
Didn’t Paul have to be present in this context, or did he have his ‘parousia’ without being present with them?
Philippians 2:12
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
What about the lawless one? Is he going to be off the earth some where when he shows up?
II Thessalonians 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
Neil Steven Lawrence
Link Hudson The angel said,”in the same way you see him departing he will also return.” So we see here a programmatic description being established to explain the 2nd coming of Jesus. The rapture on the other hand will be different because the clouds will not part. He will still “come down” – to use anthropomorphic language, but the clouds will not part.
Now I have 3 questions for you:
1. How far in distance (miles) does Jesus have to “come down” in the clouds to have the archangel shout and blow the rapture trumpet?
2. Why does the Bible describe the rapture as being a secret event but the second coming as being a worldwide viewable phenomenon?
3. If the Rapture is post-trib how can it be secretive yet we know the timing of everything as it is described in the Bible?
Link Hudson
Neil Steven Lawrence 1. I don’t know and neither do you. 2. and 3., show the scriptures you are referring to. I am sure I do not interpret them the same way.
Why isn’t there a passage that shows a rapture occuring before Jesus comes back? What does Paul write about the ‘parousia’ as if it is one thing? Why is there no hint of a pre-trib rapture in Paul’s writings? Why doesn’t the book of Revelation show a pre-trib rapture happening early in the book? Why jump into stories of saints being persecuted without mentioning the ones that were taken up before, if pre-trib is true?
Why would James tell the brethren to be patient unto the parousia of the Lord if they would be raptured seven years before it happens? (James 5:7)
Why does Paul writes this in I Thessalonians 5:
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Why doesn’t he wish them that God preserve them spirit soul and body unto seven years before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ?
Link Hudson
Neil Steven Lawrence Where does the Bible say that the clouds will not part for the rapture. Can you back up these assertions with the scriptures you believe support them. It’s hard to follow your argument otherwise.
Gerald Foister
How about mid trib
Varnel Watson
That the New Testament teaches Christ could return at any moment is a strong doctrine supporting the pre-trib rapture doctrine (see 1 Cor. 1:7; 16:22; Phil. 3:20; 4:5; 1 Thess. 1:10; Tit. 2:13; Heb. 9:28; Jam. 5:7–9; 1 Pet. 1:13; Jude 21: Rev. 3:11; 22:7, 12, 17, 20). Pretribulationists call this the doctrine of imminence. If Christ can return at anymoment, without the necessity of intervening signs or events, then it renders pretribulationism most likely and posttribulationism impossible. Imminence in relation to the rapture has been defined as consisting of three elements: “the certainty that He may come at any moment, the uncertainty of the time of that arrival, and the fact that no prophesied event stands between the believer and that hour.”
Varnel Watson
PROBLEM 1 with pos-trib – want to prove how good they are for the rapture Basically save themselves by works during the Tribulation and not through the grace of GOD
Link Hudson
Troy Day huh? Straw man number 2. Post-trib treats the saints who are alive and temain unto the coming of the Lord as part of the church. In fact Paul uses tge word ‘church’ to describe saints who are here when Jesus returns in II Thessalonians 1.
The saints at the very end of the last days are saved the same way as saints were saved at Pentecost. Post-trib does not require some special shift to works-based salvation.
Another strawman.
I could just say that pretrib requires the saved to wear their underwear on their head, but that would alsobe a straw man argument.
Varnel Watson
PROBLEM 2 with pos-trib – The posttribulational
view robs every generation of an imminent, and consequently of a comforting and purifying hope. It argues that, because the rapture was not imminent in the first century, it is not imminent in any century, and it cannot be imminent now. Antichrist and the great Tribulation are ahead, and there is no basis for expecting Christ to come before such clearly scheduled events
Varnel Watson
PROBLEM 2 with pos-trib – says the devil will reign over the church during the Tribulation – NOT found in any scripture
Link Hudson
Troy Day who says the devil will reign over the church? What eschatology teaches that? Looks like a straw man.
Varnel Watson
PROBLEM 3 with pos-trib – major major problem with interpreting Mt 24 where it says ONE is taken ONE left behind – left behind to WHAT? What is the point to be left behind IF the Lord returns in a split second – POST TRIB has TOO MANY PROBLEMS
Daniel J Hesse
Jesus any moment!
Varnel Watson
WHY CHRIST CAN RETURN AT ANY MOMENT
Look at these verses stating that Christ could return at any moment, without
warning. In their specific contexts, they instruct believers to wait and look for the
Lord’s coming at any moment. Thus, these passages teach the doctrine of imminence.
• 1 Corinthians 1:7–“awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,”
• 1 Corinthians 16:22–“Maranatha.” “Mar” (“Lord”), “ana” (“our”), and “tha”
(“come”), meaning “our Lord, come.” The Arabic greeting implies an eager
expectation.
• Philippians 3:20–“For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait
for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;”
Philippians 4:5–“The Lord is near.”
• 1 Thessalonians 1:10–“to wait for His Son from heaven,”
• 1 Thessalonians 5:6–“so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and
sober.”
• 1 Timothy 6:14–“that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until
the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,”
• Titus 2:13–“looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great
God and Savior, Christ Jesus;”
• Hebrews 9:28–“so Christ . . . shall appear a second time for salvation without
reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.”
• James 5:7-9–“Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. . . . for the
coming of the Lord is at hand. . . . behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.”
• 1 Peter 1:13 –“fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the
revelation of Jesus Christ.”
• Jude 21–“waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.”
• Revelation 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20–“‘I am coming quickly!’” This means that Christ could
come at any moment, quickly without warning.
• Revelation 22:17, 20–“And the Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come.’ And let the one
who hears say, ‘Come.’”
“He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’ Amen. Come,
Lord Jesus.”
Link Hudson
Troy Day i do not see how those are pretrob arguments. Ptretrib has Christians gone years before the second coming we are supposed to be hear waiting for.
Varnel Watson
I already posted about the 3 main post -trib problems When you put 2n2 together you see that this cannot be about pre-Trib. Overall pre-Trib is a nice theory but JUST not in the Bible That’s all – everything about pre-Trib is just wrong
Neil Steven Lawrence
Link Hudson notice in Revelation 14:14–16 the rapture is shown with the Son of Man (Jesus) remaining in the clouds and harvesting (rapturing) the earth. He’s never shown coming down to the earth at this point. Jesus remaining in the clouds while calling the saints heavenward is characteristic of a distinct rapture juxtapose an earthly 2nd coming.
“I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.”
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day Yes, his return is immanent and he could come at any moment, as indicated in MAT 24 “No one knows about that day or hour.”. But, we are told later in that same chapter that we should know the season, “Now learn a parable of the fig tree; when its branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near: So likewise you, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.” The Tribulation is the season, but the exact day and hour it is finished is not known,” Some say we will know for certain the end of the Tribualtion after it starts and it will be 7 years. But the Lord in this same chapter says, “And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.” So while we know the Tribulation is the season, no one can know the exact day or hour of his return, so we must watch carefully. It could be cut short by a few day, months, or years. So we must be ready. And don’t forget that this chapter tells when the rapture will happen, “After the tribulation.”
David Allen Stryker
There is no seven year tribulation anywhere in scripture.
James C. Morris
David Allen Stryker error! It is clearly there.
David Allen Stryker
James C. Morris
Daniel 9 has nothing to do with end times prophecy.
Rich Palmer
David Allen Stryker is there a reason why you believe Daniels 70th week has nothing to do with end times prophecy?
Robert David Van Meter
Rich Palmer it’s my understanding that he is a full preterist
David Allen Stryker
Rich Palmer: Ezra 6:14…The “command to rebuild Jerusalem” was given in Ezra 7…
457bc…Adding 69 weeks/483 years equals 27ad…
“Behold the Lamb of God” (at His baptism)….
3 1/2 years later in 31ad “Messiah is cut off”…
The “midst of the 70th week” ending in 34ad..
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Rich Palmer
David Allen Stryker your math is all wrong.
Daniel 9 tell is from the decree until the Messiah is 69 weeks. Clearly that does not take us to 27ad as Christ has not died yet.
There different ways I’ve heard a few people look at it the Messiah coming as referenced in Daniel 9. Either by birth or beginning of his ministry at the age of 30. His ministry was for 3 years.
3 1/2 years later in 34 as he was cut off? How’s that? The church was growing like wildfire at that time.
So yes, Daniels 70th is completely applicable to end times.
David Allen Stryker
Rich Palmer: 69 weeks until the Messiah appears…
Not when He dies..
He was cut off 3 1/2 years after he began his ministry..
That’s between 27 and 31ad…
David Allen Stryker
Jesus wasn’t born in the year zero..
He was born in 4bc
Rich Palmer
David Allen Stryker so you feel the resurrection was actually a cut off?
Rich Palmer
David Allen Stryker hah stupid moment for me I have to own up to. Always taught BC was before Christ and AD after death. Clearly this isn’t the case lol ??♂️
Roger Arrick
Peace treaty is 7 yrs. Great trib is final 3.5 yrs of that.
Christian Isaac
Roger Arrick i think post trib agrees with this if I’m not mistaken
Roger Arrick
Agreed
Alan Yusko
post rapture heretics have no one left over to populate the millenium… and the wicked do not inherit the kingdom..
David Allen Stryker
Why does the earth need to be populated during the millennium?
David Allen Stryker
“I go to prepare a place for you. I will come again and take you there”…
Eric Awl Frank
Alan Yusko there are people that are not saved that refused to take the mark and or didn’t have the opportunity to take the mark necessarily because they were in some remote country somewhere that isn’t even really affected by it if you think every single person on this planet is even going to have the chance to get the mark I think that’s kind of ridiculous considering that not even every person on this planet has access to clean water or Bible or even the ability to read or write
Lito Nartéa
Yep post-trib. David is right, no 7 years mentioned in Scriptures, it’s an unbiblical reverse interpolation ? It’s called the middle of the week because his authority will only last that long no need to reverse interpolate.
Mark Frost
post
Zachary Uram
Pre-Trib!
Varnel Watson
big AMEN
David Allen Stryker
Both are false because there is no 7 year tribulation anywhere in scripture.
Christian Isaac
David Allen Stryker we say post trib but the 7 year treaty isn’t a full 7 year tribulation as you mention. Scripture says that in the middle of the week=7 years the treaty will be broken & there’ll be tribulation. Or what am i missing
Jason Corkran
David Allen Stryker spot on
Jason Corkran
Christian Isaac the 70th week is not a future 7-year time period. That’s what you’re missing.
David Allen Stryker
Christian Isaac: The 70 weeks were fulfilled in 34ad..
490 consecutive years from 457bc-344ad…
Mike Lind
Pretrib is the biblical truth
Mike Lind
The tribulation starts with the opening of the 1st seal…its also called “Daniel’s 70th week”…which starts with the 1st judgement seal which the antichrist comes in peace…
3 1/2 years later will be GREAT TRIBULATION….also called THE TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE.. which will be 3 1/2 years designed to get Israel t the repent and accept Jesus as their messiah and king.. and return back to God.
The 7 years are God’s judgement on the world….
That Tribulation will come from God
Today if you are saved…you are guaranteed tribulation but that tribulation is from man not God…
Steve Conley
There are no statements in which you find God’s eschatological wrath taking place before the first trumpet judgment is executed.
Rev 6:17 is correct, the DAY of Christ’s wrath has come, but the first plague falls later that day after the church is raptured and the 144,000 are sealed.
Dave Holdway
It’s interesting how diagrams like this cram the 2,000 year church age into a period that looks comparable to 7 years.
It shows the naivety of ALL futurist interpretation which is essentially saying the church age does not feature in prophecy at all.
It is worse than a disgrace, it’s an abomination.
Dave Holdway
Here is another satanic example.
Steve Conley
In the context of 1Thes 5:9, when does this wrath of God take place?
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
…
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
When does the sudden destruction come? It comes in the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is the most spoken of event in the Scriptures. It is within this period of time that God’s eschatological wrath is poured out upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers. Two prominent themes of this period are God’s vengeance and recompense. He will recompense the unbelievers who have persecuted His own unto death with vengeance.
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD’S VENGEANCE, and the year of RECOMPENCES for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with VENGEANCE, even God with a RECOMPENCE; he will come and save you.
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to RECOMPENSE tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking VENGEANCE on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
It is God’s recompense of vengeance in the day of the Lord that we are not appointed unto.
When does the day of the Lord take place? When does the wrath of God take place? The eschatological wrath of God takes place in the period known as the day of the Lord.
Joel the prophet and Peter quoting Joel (Acts 2:20), both said that the day of the Lord comes after a specific cosmic sign.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
The cosmic sign comes before the day of the Lord and God’s recompense of vengeance therein.
John describes this very cosmic sign when the sixth seal was opened.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
If the cosmic sign doesn’t take place until the events associated with the opening of the sixth seal, then the eschatological wrath of God in the day of the Lord doesn’t take place until after the events of the sixth seal.
It is this cosmic sign and the effects of the great earthquake (“the sea and the waves roaring”) associated with it that Christ says, when we see them, that we are to be encouraged (“lift up your heads”) and look to the sky for Christ will appear at any moment to complete our redemption. Notice the fearfulness of men, the distress of the nations with perplexity. Is it not describing the same hiding in fear that John witnessed in Rev 6:15-16 and Isaiah prophesied of as presented below?
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
The wrath of God that we are not appointed unto doesn’t take place until after the cosmic sign that John witnessed at the opening of the sixth seal. All these descriptions of the wrath of God happen after the cosmic sign. So, when does the great tribulation take place in relation to the cosmic sign? Jesus tells us in Matt 24:29.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus says the notable cosmic sign happens immediately after the tribulation of those days. The days of tribulation in the context are those of the great tribulation as mentioned in verses 21-22.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
So the question is: Is the great tribulation the period of God’s eschatological wrath? It cannot be, for it is over when the precursor sign of the day of the Lord takes place.
The church will be caught away before the wrath of God in the day of the Lord which comes after the church has suffered persecution at the hand of the Beast. Please note that the trumpet and bowl judgments are the expressions of God’s eschatological wrath in the day of the Lord, they do not take place within the period of unprecedented persecution of the elect that Jesus called the great tribulation.
May our gracious Lord bless you with full understanding.
Nana Kweku Nyarko
None!
All Hollywood fantasies
Steve Barrett
Post trib pre wrath!
David Bakkes
Wrong wrong wrong.
Kenneth Lindsay Bremner
https://youtu.be/MzHZkQMwzB0
Steve Conley
He can’t get out of his own way when it comes to eschatology.
Steve Conley
https://www.alankurschner.com/2012/07/31/tenets-of-prewrath/
Steve Conley
https://www.alankurschner.com/2013/02/19/what-is-prewrath/
Varnel Watson
Craig Somersett pre=wrath is a man invented far right heresy
Craig Somersett
Troy Day
What would be the alleged purpose in a Post-Trib Rapture? Why bother?
Varnel Watson
I dont see oen That’s ahy I am pre-Trib all the way
Jerry Duckworth
Neither. A mill all day
Varnel Watson
Augustine the Catholic was too First amil ushered Byzantium as a Christian Empire. What would NAR and American a-mil usher as new world order empire?
Jerry Duckworth
Troy Day huh?
Varnel Watson
Jerry Duckworth oh you didnt know? Well now you do
Jerry Duckworth
Troy Day no I didn’t comprehend your response
Varnel Watson
Steve Conley could you pls post your own sermon from your 30+ year pastoral ministry where you explain your eschatology be it pre-wrath or whatever other one you may be explaining
Steve Conley
Troy Day You asked for my teaching, what do you think I have been giving you? I’ll gladly give you a bunch of my teaching.
Why the Rapture is not Imminent
There is a same day connection between the rapture and the eschatological wrath of God which takes place in the day of the Lord. That means that there are preconditions for the rapture of the church. Let me explain.
First, I want to affirm that the Scriptures are explicit about the fact that God’s elect (all those in Christ) are not going to experience His wrath in the day of the Lord (1Thes 5:9). Also, let me affirm that before the Lord’s wrath is poured out upon the unbelieving world, He will resurrect the dead in Christ, change those believers who remain alive, and AFTER THAT catch us up to be with Himself in the clouds. This catching up is what we call the rapture. It is the fulfillment of Christ’s promise to “come again and receive [us] unto [himself]”(Jn 14:3). There indeed will be a rapture of the church before the wrath of God commences, in the day of the Lord.
Many are correct in thinking that those who are saved in Christ will be rescued before the wrath of God falls unexpectedly upon the unbelieving. However, many fail to understand all the implications of Christ’s words, especially those recorded in Luke 17:26-30, where Jesus makes three important points.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
First, we see that the lost world, who will be going about their business, as usual, will be caught by surprise by the wrath of God at Christ’s revelation. Just as the preaching of the flood was rejected and unexpected by the unbelieving in Noah’s day, so shall the wrath of God in the day of the Lord be unexpected by the unbelieving. Just as many in Lot’s extended family in Sodom did not believe the warning and were caught unawares, along with all the wicked, by the divine destruction of those evil cities, so shall it be at Christ’s coming.
• The first point that Christ makes is that God’s wrath comes unexpectedly upon the apathetic, unbelieving world.
The point that Christ makes next is that before God’s eschatological wrath falls, the righteous are rescued. Noah and his family are shut up in the ark safe from the flood and Lot and his two daughters are removed from the area of divine wrath. So shall the righteous be, at the revelation of Christ. We shall be resurrected, changed, and raptured to Him in the clouds before the first stroke of His eschatological wrath falls.
• The second point is that we will be rescued before He pours out His wrath.
The final point that Christ brings home is that the very day of our rescue will be the day that His wrath begins to fall. Notice that He said that the unbelieving continued business as usual “until the day” that Noah went into the ark. Again, He said, “the same day” that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone. This is a clear indication that His wrath is connected with our rescue. The very day of our rapture will be the day His wrath begins to fall upon the unbelievers. This beginning of the pouring out of His wrath takes place on the day of Christ’s revelation following the catching up of the saints, all on the very same day.
• The third point that Christ makes is that the day of our rescue is the day when His wrath begins. That day, is the beginning of the eschatological period of time known as “the day of the Lord.”
The REVELATION of Christ in the clouds with the mighty angels is the first act of Christ in the day of the Lord (2Thes 1:6-10; Matt 24:30; 1Cor 1:7; Rev 1:7). Upon that day, unexpectedly to the world, Christ is revealed, we are rescued from persecution, and God begins to persecute (tribulate) those who persecuted us (2Thes 1:6-10).
What are some of the implications of these three important truths from Luke 17:26-30?
1) We are removed from the earth first, before God’s wrath falls.
2) The lost are caught by surprise by the wrath of God due to their unbelief. They did not heed the warnings.
3) There is a hard, same day, connection between the rapture and the “day of the Lord” wrath of God.
4) This “same day” connection between the rapture and the wrath makes all the prophetic signs associated with the day of the Lord also true concerning the rapture.
5) Since there are many preconditions (Joel 2:10, 31; Matt 24:9-31; Mal 4:5; 2Thes 2:3; etc) which must take place before the day of the Lord can come, the same serve as preconditions for the rapture.
6) If there are preconditions for the rapture, and there are, then the teaching of an imminent (any moment) rapture is inherently unbiblical and false.
7) All these things being true, the only reference to the “catching up” gathering of Christ’s own unto Himself, that has explicit language indicating the timing of the rapture in relation to the great tribulation, is Matt 24:31. There we see that it comes AFTER the great tribulation is cut short (vss 22, 29), but before His wrath falls in the day of the Lord.
The rapture takes place at some unknown point in the second half of the week after the unprecedented persecution of the saints (great tribulation), but before God’s wrath in the day of the Lord falls upon the unbelieving, beast worshiping, earth-dwellers.
Glory be unto the Lord, Christ Jesus.
Varnel Watson
hey Steve Conley a short 20-min video of you pastoring and teaching this to your congregations will do just fine This copy paste you do could be yours but as I see it so many times on the internet could be someone elses https://calvarychapelreno.org/Revelation-verse-by-verse.php
TD Hale
So, we are going to do a U-turn lol
Vilikesa Salabogi
Pretrib
Steve Conley
Troy Day, Since you think you are hot stuff within the field of eschatology, how about having a debate, between you and me, on this group. Or are you afraid of being exposed any more than you have been already as a false teacher.
You can attempt to defend the false teaching of two future comings of Christ and I will defend the harmony of one future parousia of Christ, His second.
You can attempt to defend the sameness of the great tribulation and the day of the Lord and I will demonstrate their distinct nature.
You can try and defend the division of the people of God into many subgroups in support of Matt 24 being exclusively for the Jews and I will demonstrate that it is the church that is spoken of as the elect in Matt 24.
You can try and defend the imminency of rapture and I will demonstrate from the Scriptures that it cannot take place any moment, but there are many events that must take place first.
I don’t even need to go to your web site to see what you believe. I am familiar with the many flavors of pretribulationism.
Remember, you really know nothing about prewrath eschatology, but I know pretribulationism inside and out.
What say you, hot shot. Let’s see if there is any cattle to go with that Hat.
Bridget Rea
Post Trib, pre wrath
Robert Pearce
Pan trib… ?
Calv Proskunétés
Jesus is coming back to destroy all death and enemies, how in the world there are still human beings alive after the second coming?
Varnel Watson
YES He is – stay rapture ready my friends