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Troy Day NOW I agree with the Dake Bible on this one 100%
Ricky GrimsleyLol his main proof is that “after these things†means after the churches. Nonsense
Troy DayMETA TAUTA – in the original Greek. Still there after 2,000 yrs Dont just erase and cut the Bible – Deal with it 🙂 #SOLID
Ricky GrimsleyIt doesn’t mean after the churches. It means the vision of Jesus where he talks about the churches.
Troy DayWhy?
Ricky GrimsleyCommon sense
Troy DayWhat common sense 🙂 What you are saying makes absolutely no sense at all
Ricky GrimsleyAfter these things just means on to the next part of the book. Not after the churches. It just doesn’t say that.
Troy DayThat makes no sense The Greek is pretty clear Just look it up for yourself when you get a chance
A.J. BibleIn addition, the Church is not mentioned again after Chapter 3 until Revelation 22:6. That is “after these things” are fully revealed.
Ricky GrimsleyLol
Ricky GrimsleyWho is dying for Jesus if not the church?Revelation 6:11 KJVS[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were , should be fulfilled.
Ricky GrimsleyRevelation 12:11 KJVS[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Ricky GrimsleyDaniel 11:31-32 KJVS[31] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice , and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. [32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits .
A.J. BibleThose who repent during the tribulation. Daniel 11:31-32 does not refer to end time prohecy but prohecy of Antiochus.
Ricky GrimsleyCmon you don’t really believe that
Ricky GrimsleyWhat about all the others
A.J. BibleDon’t believe what? The Bible? Yes, I believe the Bible.
Ricky GrimsleyWe all believe the Bible.
Ricky GrimsleyThe part about it being just antiochus
A.J. BibleYes. I make the assumption you’re trying to make verses 31-32 about the antichrist. But he does not come in prophecy until verse 36.
Melvin ShomoI look at this way Jesus had said to watch, because thou does not know when thy Lord doth come.We all know for a fact that he is coming at the end of the seven year tribulation, so you are already prepared for his coming.If you believe that we will meet the Lord in the air, then you have to believe in a catching away, or a rapture. If you believe that the catching away is in the middle of the tribulation, then you already know. Three and a half years after the tribulation starts. Here again you already know, even though Jesus had said that no body knows but the Father in heaven.Now the Pretribbers have no way of knowing concerning the catching away, or the rapture, when their Lord had said to stay alert and WATCH,, because we do not know.. Because the tribulation will take everyone by surprise, and so will our Lord.
Ricky GrimsleyHe said no man knows the day or the hour because no man did. Now he does. There is no scriptural support for pretrib. The disciples asked for signs. Jesus have them 30 verses of signs. Open your eyes people.
A.J. Bible👀
Ricky GrimsleyWe rise to meet him in the air right????????Matthew 24:30-31 KJVS[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Melvin ShomoThere are more then just a few verses in the Bible.I take Jesus literally for what he has said
A.J. BibleRicky Grimsley. Matthew 24:30-31 is the second coming of Christ. Not the rapture.
Melvin ShomoThen you have no need to watch because you know everything there is to know
Ricky GrimsleyWhy….because you say so?
A.J. BibleBecause Joel 2 says so.
Melvin ShomoNo I know so.
Melvin ShomoRicky my boy you will have to show where in the scripture that it is no longer important to watch.
Ricky GrimsleyLol I watch everyday
Ricky GrimsleyTell me how 2 Thessalonians two doesn’t desTroy Day pretrib?
Melvin ShomoRicky my boy are we going to meet the Lord in the air?
Ricky GrimsleyYes
Ricky GrimsleyOn his way down
Ricky Grimsley2 Thessalonians 2 tells you that the rapture can’t happen until a great falling away and the Antichrist is revealed
Melvin ShomoWell many will be rewarded for their faith, according to their works. It all depends upon their confession, or confessions.To believe in a healing for your body it takes faith in the GREAT I AM.. I have received healing for my body different times, and I have been rewarded for my faith.The pretrib, is all based on faith. I do not eat and sleep the pretrib, because I do not know when the tribulation starts. I instead I walk by Faith
Ricky GrimsleyYour faith can’t change the Bible.
Melvin ShomoI have worn five of them out.And I have only read a few books in my lifetime concerning the Bible.How many books have you read separate from the Bible?
Melvin ShomoI can actually count how many books separate from the Bible I have read on one hand.And this is most likely for me being able to receive a healing for my own body.
Ricky GrimsleyIt would be hard to guess
Melvin ShomoI didn’t have the pleasure of reading the unbelief that others have written concerning the Bible.And I haven’t had a TV much in our home, and it has been forty years now. So I can’t be accused of watching Jack Van Impe .I had a book here from Hal Lindsey that I had found to boring to read. It was called the Late Great Planet Earth. It was given to me shortly after it came out. I only read a few pages of it.
Ricky GrimsleyIf you just follow Matthew 24 it shows you where the rapture is. Paul let’s you know also in 1 Thessalonians five that his talking about the second coming in 4 16-18. The rapture is the first part of the second coming.
Melvin ShomoA matter of a fact I don’t even agree with some of Jack Van Impe’s teachings.For one there will be Christians left here to face the tribulation. Quite a lot of them.All because they had taken the Lord for granite. They chose not to walk in the light as He is in the light.And they weren’t found with their oil lamps trimmed
Ricky GrimsleyI am what is called pre-wrath.
Melvin ShomoEnoch and Elijah were taken, because both men had walked and talked with God.They were in the light, as He is in the light.
Melvin ShomoFor one Ricky you have to make it through the tribulation first, and how are you going to do that if you don’t have the means to buy or sell with. If you don’t have the mark of approval
Ricky GrimsleyI’ll have toTrust god like I do now.
Ricky GrimsleyLike noah
Melvin ShomoHave you trusted God for the impossibilities?I should tell you a testimony about blood poisoning that I had.Every body had written me off as a dead man.
Melvin ShomoIf you don’t have the faith now to believe God for the impossibilities, how will you have the faith during the tribulation
Ricky GrimsleyWell if I don’t make it through….perhaps I ll be a martyr.
Melvin ShomoFirst the Christian has to be found worthy enough to escape all the things that will be coming upon the Earth during the tribulation.Many Christians think that it is okay to drink alcohol.And they also take sin for granted when Christ came to set the captive free..Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Ricky GrimsleyAnd I plan to escape these things. God’s wrath does start till after the midpoint of the tribulation. The first part of the 7 years a the wrath of man and the Antichrist
Melvin ShomoRicky it is very doubtful that many Christians will make it through the tribulation. If they don’t receive the mark of the beast, they won’t be able to buy food to eat, and those who do receive the mark will gladly turn the others in for not obeying the law. Mostly all Christians will not make it the full seven years. There are those that believe that the Lord will place the Christians in a mysterious hide away. Some even have said Petra..I wonder where they get their doctrines from..
Ricky GrimsleyRevelation 12:11 KJVS[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Melvin ShomoSo you believe that the Lord will just sit back and let his children die like he had set back for Lot, Noah, the children of Nineveh.In other words God sees no need to make away of escape for his children mentioned in Luke 21:36
Melvin ShomoSo in other words there is no need to pray to be worthy enough to escape the tribulation.I had one gentleman tell me that Luke 21:36 is referring to death in order to be worthy enoug to escape the tribulation. In other words, pray for a blessing of cancer to kill your body, or pray that a Semi Tractor Trailer hits you head on so that you may be worthy enough to escape. He was adamant that he was right about Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Melvin ShomoYou see I would quote all the scriptures but the books that you have been reading that disagrees with the pretrib, has got an explanation for those scriptures even Luke 21:36. Some people even go to the extremes and say that Jesus was referring to the Jews only and not the believer in Christ. Then what tops it off the Prophesy Club on YouTube say that the Pretribbers will accept the mark of the beast because they are so heart broken. LOLNot when you have the Holy Ghost. Many denominations know how to get people saved, but they don’t know how to give people the gift of the Holy Ghost 🔥.They tell each new convert that they supposedly received the Holy Spirit upon conversion, which is not scriptural. Yes those people that are saved with out the tangible presence of the Holy Ghost 🔥 in their lives, just might crumble and give into the mark of the beast so that they can buy and sell to feed their families
A.J. BibleVerse 7. “Until he be taken out of the way.” Who is the He? For this “he” must be removed for the antichrist to appear.
Ricky GrimsleyI believe it’s Michael. But it can’t be the church because the day won’t come till after the Antichrist is here verse 3
Troy DayCant be Michael No such option in the Bible The only one who can hold the antiChrist is the Christ If Michael could have done it there would have been no need for the Christ to do it
Joseph KidwellDake is right on this and is really pretty good on Revelation in general.
Troy DayDake is wrong on a few things but he is unmistakable on prophecy. Rapture is like the Trinity – just when you see it and it’s already too late
Joseph KidwellTrue. He is wrong on a few things, but over all, he is pretty solid on Revelation.
Christopher Noel BoggessWhy dont you just post scriptures instead of this mans interpretation and let the holy ghost give us the interpretation
Troy DayWe are speaking of Scripture Rev 4:1 After these things Has it even in Greek above A.J. Bible added v 7 Ricky Grimsley Mt 24 and no, if you just follow Mt 24 it does not show you that
Ricky Grimsley“Hey Jesus. What are the signs of your comingâ€. 30 verses of signs. Then Matthew 24:31 KJVS[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
A.J. BibleWho are the elect?
Troy DayRicky Grimsley Who else in the whole group believes in your 3/4 rapture 🙂
Ricky GrimsleyPretty simple
Troy DayRicky Grimsley You need to start making difference between coming and gathering just like the Bible does. One of the signs of Christ’s coming is that He comes WITH his saints. Now how would this be possible if the Bible doesnt tell us there will be a gathering first?
Ricky GrimsleyThe only difference is in your mind. Otherwise we would call it the third coming.
Troy Day3rd 4th – you are the one with the 3/4 rapture 🙂
Angel BonillaNobody knew about a Pre-Trib Rapture until the 19th century.
Troy DayAngel Bonilla Not true The Ancient Church Fathers Believed in Pre-Trib Rapture http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church…/
Varnel Watson
I call em like I see em Ricky Grimsley Alan Smith
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi Neil Steven Lawrence there is a definite BIBLICAL PROOF of RAPTURE vs PAROUSIA Why are SO MANY NOT going is beyond me Are you going? Dan Brent
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day Off the top of my head, The Rapture and the 2nd Coming are 2 distinct scriptural events:
1. People are not “left behind” unless someone is taken away
2. A “thief in the night” comes unexpectedly; the 2nd Coming will not be unexpected and it will not be secret but the whole world will see it.
3. The Scriptures which say we should be on our guard and be watchful because we don’t know when the Son of Man will return in the clouds (ie Rapture) do not apply to the 2nd Coming because we know exactly when that will happen – at the end of the Great Tribulation 7 years; when the antichrist armies are surrounding Jerusalem.
People who conflate these two distinct scriptural events, even though they have been clearly shown by other teachers that they are distinct, are “spiritually stubborn.” What is another word for spiritually stubborn…?
Nelson Banuchi
I can agree that there may be a “rapture,” however, I do not agree with the pre- or post-trib idea. I’m more inclined to think it will occur after if not before the 1,000 year reign (if it can be taken literally).
Honestly, I haven’t looked into this in any depth. My only question to the idea of a rapture before or mid trib in order to spare Christians from persecution (as a result of God’s judgments on the unbelievers), doesn’t sit well with me. I would ask, why would God, who allowed Christians to go through terrible persecution over the centuries, all of a sudden spare this last generation?
Second, if the Holy Spirit indwells believers, then does that mean that after the rapture the Holy Spirit is no longer on the earth to accomplish the ministry of conviction and salvation? How do unbelievers receive salvation without the ministry of the Holy Spirit? Besides that, who will preach the message of salvation to the trib-generation of unbelievers if all the Christians are raptured? Or, the age of mercy is then over?
Nelson Banuchi
Oh, and one more thing: it is my understanding that none of the Early Church Fathers taught this notion of the rapture. It was first taught during sometime around 1850, a time when there was a growing surge (if I’m not mistaken) of hope, expectation, prophesying, and even dating of the Lord’s return.
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi staying here eh? virtually ALL Ancient Church Fathers Believed in Pre-Trib Rapture http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
Nelson Banuchi
I just make one reply concerning where the article quotes Irenaeus:
“And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”
Then, to explain what Irenaeus is saying, the article states:
“Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters.”
As I read it, Irenaeus is not saying the church leaves *before* the trib, and is clearly his meaning when he states afterwards that the it is their “last contest” and “they overcome.” It cannot mean they overcome by their being whisked away but by their enduring the times, remaining faithful to God. Note he says that the tribulation is their “last contest” which they “overcome” by their faithfulness, even to death.
We may have a promise in the Bible of safety from divine wrath but there is no promise of safety from persecution by human wrath by those to whom divine wrath is inflicted. Persecution is itself inevitable, practically promised for those who seek to obey the Lord. As such, believers will not be whisked away (raptured) before the Tribulation but, as I stated earlier, if 1 These 4 is to be taken literally, it will be more than likely after the Trib (p.551).
Did Irenaeus make a clearer statement on the issue?
Tertullian is quoted in Bercot’s “Dictionary of Early Christian Belief,” regarding the rapture, that:
“In the crisis of the last moment, and from their instantaneous death *while encountering* the oppression of the Antichrist, these persons will undergo a change” (ibid).
In another place, Tertullian is quoted to say:
“When we read, ‘Go, my people, enter into your closets… until my anger passes away,” we understand the closets to be graves, in which will rest… [those who] have departed this life *in the furious onset* of the power of the Antichrist” (ibid).
It seems to me that Tertullian is suggesting that believers will go through the Trib and be raptured afterwards.
And just to be clear, I am not saying that the idea of the rapture in and of itself is not taught by the Early Church, but that a rapture pre- or mid-trib is what is *not* taught. Believers will go through the “great tribulation.”
It is only “immediately after the tribulation” that Jesus “will gather together His elect”: no gathering of the elect – a rapture – is hinted at the trib but only after. It seems before or during the trib, the only “rapture” hinted at must be by foot running out of the house and fleeing to the mountains (vs.15-21).
It is interesting that you provide only three Church Fathers and the first one used as a defense of the rapture before the Trib is dubious or inconclusive. Perhaps there was not a consensus on this issue of the rapture being before the Trib?
I have not the time now to investigate the other two, but I hope to have time to look into them. Theses last two do, at first glance, seem to affirm your position… but are there only these two?
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day Btw, that pic of Darby is scary, ?
Varnel Watson
RT Neil Steven Lawrence
The Rapture and the 2nd Coming are 2 distinct Scriptural events:
1. People are not “left behind” unless someone is taken away. The Rapture is a word that means “caught up.“ The 2nd Coming is not a “catching up” but a “going down” of Jesus and the armies of Heaven to the earth!
2. The Rapture is described as a “thief in the night” which comes unexpectedly; the 2nd Coming will not be unexpected and it will not be secret but the whole world will see it.
3. The Scriptures which say we should be on our guard and be watchful because we don’t know when the Son of Man will call us from the clouds (ie Rapture), do not apply to the 2nd Coming because we know exactly when that will happen – at the end of the Great Tribulation 7 years; when the antichrist armies are surrounding Jerusalem.
People who conflate these 2 distinct scriptural events, even though they have been clearly shown by other teachers that they are distinct, are “spiritually stubborn.” What is another word for spiritually stubborn…?
Varnel Watson
well come on now Larry Dale Steele Neil Steven Lawrence
Rich Palmer
Couldn’t that moment be Christ’s 2nd coming?
Tony Foulks
The rapture we meet Jesus in the air. The second coming He comes to earth. Bible says, “this Jesus you see ascending from earth will come back in the same manner
Daniel Farris
If your pretrib & raptured in a twinkling of a eye,,,,don’t think your going to get a much of chance to get a glimps of HIM descending from the sky!?
Tony Foulks
Daniel Farris the Bible says He will meet us in the air. I don’t have to see anything
Mike Forfar
2Thess 2:3 “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day [the rapture] will not come unless the falling away (apostasia) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,”
Brian Cathy Gray
The only proof of anything is in it’s happening. Everything else is belief and faith.
Dave Holdway
Definite denial of anything Jewish, the trial and tribulation of Israel and the whole Church Age in prophecy.
Michael Anthony Furtado
As much as you wish that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture, it shall not be. I believe that Jesus Christ hates the adoption of this harmful theory of a pre-tribulation rapture as His word clearly and plainly rejects it!
Anonymous
hey Link were you able to find resurrection in Mt 24?
Anonymous
Where’s the proof?
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs https://backtobasicsradio.com/god-has-not-appointed-us-to-wrath/
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs https://backtobasicsradio.com/a-post-tribulational-rapture-leaves-no-sheep-to-separate-from-the-goats/
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs https://backtobasicsradio.com/falling-away/
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs Requires careful study and harmonization of all Scripture. The Bible is not an encyclopedia.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs the proof is in the pudding
Anonymous
James Pinkerton thats a good verse Link Hudson
Anonymous
James Pinkerton this is TRUE and it seems like it leaves NO resurrection for Brett Dobbs Link Hudson in MT 24
Anonymous
James Pinkerton to sum this one UP
apostasia does not mean only “apostasy”
just like
apostelo does not mean only apostle
THAT simple Link Hudson Kyle Williams Brett Dobbs
TO understand the BIBLE one must depart from the western mindset and delve into the original WRIT – a careful stidy as Duane L Burgess Darnell Henson Jr. have suggested
Anonymous
James Pinkerton
2 Corinthians 1:20-22 (KJV) 20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Your sealed.
Ephesians 1:13-13 (KJV) In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Revelation 9:3-3 (KJV) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Who has power to tread over serpents and scorpions? You do.
Luke 10:19 (KJV)
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Revelation 9:20-20 (KJV) And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
These men won’t repent. So it seems highly likely that the only ones who are affected by these plagues are the ones who refuse to repent and the ones who do not have the seal of God.
We have the seal of God within us. The 144,000 have the seal of God on their forehead.
The angels seal the 144,000 but the Holy Spirit is the one who seals us.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs you do not have such seal ANY Jew would tell you 144K a Jews – the 12 tribe anology The tefillin on the head etc None of the verses you quote actually refer to do not differ us from 1 Thessalonians 5:9, God has not appointed us to wrath AND 1 Thess 5 comes right after 1 Thes 4 SO you can have NO doubt it refers to a pre-trib rapture context
Anonymous
Troy Day John 3:36-36 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
We’re spared the wrath of God because of the cleansing by the blood of Jesus. Sealed by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is our Passover lamb. We’ve already been marked.
Just like in exodus when Israel marked the blood on the door post to be spared. They were not taken away from none of the plagues that came upon Egypt. But they were protected when God took the first born from every Egyptian.
So we will also be spared of Gods wrath.
And before Gods wrath comes, there will be seals broken and Trumpets blown.
And it’s the prayers of the saints that fuels those trumpets. So would the saints be plagued by their own prayers? The trumpets has no effect on the saints. But only on the ones who refuse to respect to put their faith in Jesus.
Anonymous
Troy Day This feels like a straw man argument. The issue is not that post-tribbers do not realize the word can be used in other ways in other contexts. The issue is what it mans in II Thessalonian 2.
Anonymous
Link Hudson exactly.
The Jewish priest accused Paul of teaching the Jews to apostasia, pertaining to the law of Moses. And they wanted to kill Paul for doing it.
So by that apostasia whatever it is, would be a thing that a person does by their own will. As like a decision being made after being convinced of something. So apostasia is the action of the apostate.
If apostasia means the leaving or going of the church. Then they are going by their own will power and not by the power or the will of someone else. When the church leaves the earth. I don’t think it’s by their own will.
This is a direct reference application from trying to get the meaning out of the context of the sentence it is used in. And since it is only used twice in the Bible. I don’t have very many verses to go off of.
So, now in order for me to get out of my western mindset. I need someone to show me in an extra biblical source where and how apostasia is used. Find me a Greek document that says something like this:
“The group apostasia from Athens to Rome.” That is a physical departure.
But the way I see apostasia used in the Bible is a mental departure.
Anonymous
Link Hudson which part? Are you referring to what James Pinkerton posted? Which actually straight from the BIBLE
Anonymous
Troy Day I am aware that apostasia has a range of meaning that can include something along the lines of ‘apostasy.’ That is not the issue.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs the pattern is also clear from scripture that shows us clearly who the restrainer is in Thessalonians. Prophecy is always pattern and just look at the pattern read Ezekiel 10:1-20
Ezekiel 10 1-20 = glory of God departing = destruction of Israel
New testament the veil tearing= glory departing = destruction of Israel
The pattern is that the Holy Spirit is what holds back the full blown judgment of God.
We are the vessel of that same glory now and we are the righteousness of God
And the righteous restrained judgment in the case of Lot.
I thought about this last night in my Bible reading time.
It makes way more sense then Michael the archangel
Anonymous
James Pinkerton are you referring to Ezekiel 9?
Anonymous
James Pinkerton which I think the conjecture your making with Ezekiel in 9 or 10 is a bit of a stretch.
I do however fully see the typology with Lot. As soon as they were removed sudden destruction came.
I believe it will be exactly like that. No survivors.
But I have a question. Are the following passages a reference to Gods wrath?
Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.
Rev 7:9-14
Revelation 11:7-7 (KJV) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Revelation 12:10-11 (KJV) 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Revelation 13:7-7 (KJV) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 13:10-10 (KJV) He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 14:12-13 (KJV) 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Is that Gods wrath?
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs no I was talking about Ezekiel 10…
See you still have a problem because this is the progression… Isreal rebleled… God pronounced the judgment to come… then his glory departs in Ezekiel 10 and then then he uses Nebuchadnezzar (type of Antichrist) to enslave Isreal. Not wipe them off the face of the planet. No one had the ability or authority to take over Jerusalem when God’s Spirit was dwelling in the temple because His presence is what restrained the enemy. That is why they would lament in the old testament ICHABOD “woe for the glory has departed” and we are doomed. Then the Anti Christ was given full rights to come and burn the city and enslave the Isrealites.
Anonymous
So either the Spirit of God is going to leave us or we are leaving this place before the Antichrist is given full reign. And I can’t speak for every believer but the Holy Spirit that dwells in me is not going anywhere. So it has to be the latter hence a pre tribulation rapture.
Anonymous
James Pinkerton sounds about right BUT if the SPIRIT is taken who will convict people like Link and Brett to be saved during the tribulation ?
Anonymous
I believe the Spirit will still be here just not in that restraing capacity. We are the light of the world and if that light leaves what a dark day that will be indeed. But God will still have people that come to know Him during the tribulation… through the witnesses and angels preaching the gospel across the sky. I believe that people were still able to come to God and be saved even in the old testament even when the glory had departed.
Anonymous
James Pinkerton are those passages I shared Gods wrath?
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs there is NO such pattern in prophecy as you assume
Anonymous
Troy Day I’ll ask you the same question I asked James. It’s an easy yes or no answer. Is this the wrath of God?
Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.
Rev 7:9-14
Revelation 11:7-7 (KJV) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Revelation 12:10-11 (KJV) 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Revelation 13:7-7 (KJV) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 13:10-10 (KJV) He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 14:12-13 (KJV) 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Is that Gods wrath?
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs show us resurrection in Mt24 to show pattern to 1Thes
Anonymous
Troy Day 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV) 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
All of that is the day of Christ.
Then we have the day of the Lord that follows the day of Christ.
Matthew 24:27-28 (KJV) 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Matthew 24:36-42 (KJV) 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 (KJV) 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Now answer my question. Yes or no.
Anonymous
actually pre-wrath Ricky Grimsley also believes after these things… and most certainly does not hold the Church goes through the whole tribulation but thanks for tagging him in. I do not feel Dake needs defense to defend him. You can address his publisher A.J. Bible on this – as for me I am still waiting for Link to show me the word resurrection in Mt 28 before he makes ANY further assumptions on Bible texts he does not understand Brett Dobbs can point to the resurrection in Mt 28 as well of course… I’ll wait!
Anonymous
Troy Day Islamic apologist style arguing. “Show me where the Bible says that Jesus is God.”
I don’t claim that Matthew 24 specifically mentions the resurrection. But Daniel mentions it occurring after a time of trouble like none other before it since there was a nation.
Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
‘Trouble’ here translates ‘θλῖψις’ which Jesus uses in the phrase translated ‘great tribulation’ in Matthew 24.
Nice dodge to bring this up instead of addressing specifically the debunking of your defense of Dake’s silly argument. You have argued for some odd things based on what the Greek supposedly means.
Anonymous
Troy Day Link Hudson 2 Thessalonians 2 and really 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and five when read together destroy all arguments of a pretrib. Unless you are one of the weirdos that’s thinks the great falling away was the rapture.
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley that is not true of course – the only thing it destroys is pre-wraths which is not found anywhere in the BIBLE but was created in the late 1970-80s by a man who simply wanted to be paid for it 🙂
Anonymous
Link Hudson I guess we missed it.