Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars
Click to get our FREE MOBILE APP and stay connected
| PentecostalTheology.com
I keep on repeating this through the years, but the need for the constant repetition comes from the simple fact that among new doctrinal teachings and Hillsong style of worship the True Message of Pentecost remains long forgotten
- Salvation – That a man must be saved while the hour of grace is still upon us has been that teaching of every protestant evangelical since the Reformation. Why people attend church all their lives without getting saved is beyond me. But I do know that the commitment of the CHURCH to REVIVAL brings people to SALVATION.
- Sanctification – The Wesleyan teaching of sanctification resolves that the sanctification of the believer is definite. This means that though it may progress and evolve through time, as the believer gets closer to God in his/her daily walk, sanctification must become ENTIRE i.e. allowing NO sin to abide in the believer’s body, soul or spirit. Without ENTIRE sanctification resulting in holiness, no one will ever see God (Heb. 12:14).
- Holy Ghost Baptism – The doctrine of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost means that when baptized we speak in one tongue with God because we are ONE with His Spirit. Not just in us or upon us, but that we are IN the Spirit as John was on the day of Revelation.
- Healing in the Atonement of Christ belongs to every believer. This means you, your family and your church members. The healing provided in the Atonement is for ALL believers – no exception. It is also for ALL sickness, disease, viruses, infections, tumors and cancers. But that it belongs to does not yet mean that it has been received by the believer. For this reason, God does not stop healing neither in this age nor through eternity, as the leaves of the Tree of Life in the New Jerusalem are still and forever for the healing (Rev. 22:2)
- The Second Coming of Christ for Pentecostals is not simply pre-millennial, but also pre-Tribulation. There have been MANY teachings on the End Times until today. Post-millennials claim we live in the Millennium even now anticipating the return of the Lord; a-millennials that there will be no Millennium at all. Post-tribulationists expect his return at the end of the Tribulation, mid-post-tribulationists in the middle. But in Pentecost, we expect Christ to return before the Tribulation that we may be saved from the hour of trial (Rev. 3:10) and before the Millennium so we may reign with Him 1,000 years. Any other message is no message of hope for the Church of the Living God.
Philip Williams
Except that earliest Pentecostals were the very opposite of those teaching the pre-tribulation rapture. They saw the return of the gifts as part of a Latter Rain glory of the Church as it returned to the gifts and power of the Apostles from the Day of Pentecost.
Pentecostals ministers learned the pre-tribulation rapture of the Dispensationalists at the Bible schools they attended.
The Dispensationalists were among the strongest opponents of the Pentecostals. Dake’s Bible spun this new theology to make it acceptable for Pentecostals. Still doesn’t make sense. Hard to win the world for Christ if one is expecting the antiChrist. Early Pentecostals viewed the Pope of Rome as the antiChrist.
Philip Williams
The Great Awakening and Pentecostal revivals developed the same way, by reading the pattern of the NT Church as the way the Church ought to be today.
Varnel Watson
OK Philip Williams finally a good discussion All through except they say not Dake or Scofield but Larkin first introduced Dake came in the 60s Larkin was right then 1919 and so on
As Dr. Donald W. Dayton have pointed out in our discussions before
” They are two unrelated uses of the word dispensational. One can be a Dispensationalist (in the Darby/Dake sense and a cessationist or not. Similarly one can be a cessationist (for example Warfield) and not a dispensationalist in the Scofield Bible sense. This confused use of the word dispensationalist causes problems for many people.
…..
they are apparently dispensationalists in both meanings of the word. Some pentecostals are dispensationalists in the Scofield bible sense, others are not. In my book THEOLOGICAL ROOTS OF PENTECOSTALISM I have some discussion of these questions. Part of the issue is the assumptions that one brings to the bible. For example, are the historical events in the NT models of the spiritual experience of every Christian or are they events that establish the church but need not be repeated. That is, since Pentecost the Christian receives the HS at conversion. There can be a biblical argument about this, but that argument cannot be definitive because part of the issue is the assumptions that one brings to the bible. Of the early founders of Methodism, for example, John Wesley believed that since Pentecost believers received the HS at conversion. His buddy John Fletcher believed that the two experiences of the NT (the call to discipleship and the reception of the Holy Spirit at Pentecosr) are a pattern for all Christians. I think Wesley is more correct than Fletcher.”
Philip Williams
Troy Day every revival is ignited by reading the Scriptures as relevant and speaking to contemporary believers. The Reformation was ignited by reading Paul as if he were speaking directly to believers. This began with the humanists who saw that as the only reasonable way to translate the Scriptures owing to the fact that one translates the original meaning. This started in Italy but spread to England and Holland via John Colet and Erasmus. Erasmus wrote the Handbook of the Militant Christian, a forward by his scholarly friend who became the Pope of the Reformation. Erasmus thought the NT a great means of reforming the Church, which everyone agreed was getting in bad shape. These men laid the egg that Luther world hatch. When Erasmus heard about Luther appealing to Scripture, he lent his support to the young monk.
Philip Williams
Troy Day what made a Puritan a Puritan is that they wanted to keep reading the Scriptures this way.
Varnel Watson
Sure thing Philip Williams but back to dispensations?
Philip Williams
The core problem with Darby/Scofield (I really don’t know Dake’s system) is that they have the Scriptures speaking to unbelieving Jews or those whose ethnic roots are unbelieving Jews. That is just the opposite of how we must read them as speaking directly to us. So that kind of Dispensationalism is incompatible with Pentecostalism.
Link Hudson
Should we read Old Testamrnt scripture as rebuking us for eating swine’s flesh or marrying Gentile women?
Varnel Watson
for some reason FB doesnt unfold posts properly When click on the Link notification the Calvinist post opened Took me 5min to find that comment was under here
Joe Absher
Something is desperately wrong at Facebook. The only options for a background are gay pride
Philip Williams
Link Hudson Ever heats of the New Covenant? Still we read the faithful in the OT as our(!) history and not the history of those who reject Jesus, always Israel’s King and Abraham’s friend.
Varnel Watson
Joe Absher give us your pure Pentecostal view
Miller Isaac
What’s wrong with just being bible believing Christians?
Varnel Watson
A bible believing Christian is one who believes in the Trinity
A Christian is the one who accepts The Trinity.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit are 3 Persons in the ONE God Head.
NOT 3 gods – ONE GOD (Athanasian Creed)
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/a-christian-is-the-one-who-accepts-the-trinity/
Joe Absher
Or “When pastors write theology” 🙂
Link Hudson
Yesterday is the first timeI recall an American preacher pointing out it was Pentecost Sunday in church.
Varnel Watson
that YOU recall – because as I’ve been saying for a long time you never attended a REAL Pentecostal church – just some bapticostal mumbo jumbo Joe Absher
Joe Absher
I think it was brought right here in good old pentecostal theology last month last week and last year. They won’t forget to barbeque on fathers day though. dead swine on a grill. Bunch of heathens
Varnel Watson
if your preacher never pointed out it was Pentecost Sunday you may be a true bapticostal bunch
Link Hudson
No, it is unusual for America ns to have any kind of liturgucal calendar except Christmas, Easter and maybe Paulm Sunday. And they don’t say liturgical calendar in church. Are you some kind of Charismatic? First the Jezebel spirit and now this.
I do not never remember hearing it was Pentecost Sunday in the A/G. I do not think I heard it in the COG in Indonesia either. But GPDI makes a big deal about it as the day to get baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson once again you confirm you hardly know jack about our AG in America. Just about any church I’ve been would schedule their revival around Pentecost sunday because the school is year is usually over. BTW wernt you cog or something at one time – or you just claimed that? Someone from cog just sent me this email with denomination oversight instructions on HOW to celebrate Pentecost Sunday – did you not get it too?
https://mailchi.mp/churchofgod/pentecost-sunday-2019?e=%5BUNIQID%5D
Varnel Watson
Ed Brewer does your church celebrate Pentecost Sunday usually ?
Ed Brewer
Troy Day …of course – this year our state camp meeting started on Pentecost evening
Link Hudson
That’s curious. Did the preachers mention Pentecost to the youth?
Are you guys high church Pentecostals?
Joe Absher
I go for the altar calls not the fair speeches.
Varnel Watson
hey Daniel J Hesse Steve Maxwell does yalls churches ever celebrate Pentecost Sunday?
Steve Maxwell
Troy Day yes
Varnel Watson
we usually have our spring revival around Pentecost too I dont know what AG church Link Hudson attended but come to think it may have been cog-anderson after all
Daniel J Hesse
We had several churches come together. No wind, fire, or cloven tongues.
Varnel Watson
been the case with our district church for years too – Sunday night together of course Our Sunday mornings are in each own’s church of course but we always celebrate it NOT sure what church Link Hudson attends but it dont sound too Pentecostal – must be in the missions district Joe Absher
Joe Absher
…with the ripeness
Varnel Watson
back to the 5 basics Philip Williams which one of early Pentecostals disagreed with pre-mil theology? Come to think about it they were ALL pre-mil in their eschatology and pretty apocalyptic too
Philip Williams
Troy Day they were historical pre-mil, most probably never having heard of pre-mill Dispensationalism. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have been looking forward to seeing the gifts like tongues restored to the church. They would not have identified themselves as Pentecostal.
And for certain these persecuted saints could not so much as conceived of a pre-trib view. At that time they were being persecuted for speaking in tongues and for crimes such as worshipping with Negros, to use the less offensive term of those Jim Crow days. But the worse beatings came because they refused to serve in the military.
They thought that speaking in tongues ought to be a crime. Even in the late forties, the most prominent and educated Baptist minister in my parents community insisted that the Sheriff arrest my grandmother and another woman, a Church of God evangelist, for the crime of speaking in tongues.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams again I think you are mistaking the Dallas Baptist Dispensationalism with what early Pentecostals believed and almost kind of projecting on them Otherwise How was Parham not Premil ?
Philip Williams
Troy Day they were all expecting Jesus’s soon return. But they definitely weren’t pre-mil in the sense understood today, that is as pre-trib, a product of Dispensationalist teaching.
I think that Parham was also British Israel. ?
Varnel Watson
yes – Parham was a lot of things
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams again on the pre-mil with the gifts of the Spirit amongst early Pentecostals
our groups own @william faupel has made an excellent case for this in his The Everlasting Gospel: The Significance of Eschatology – you’ve read it I hope
So has Grant Wacker in The Functions of Faith in Primitive Pentecostalism for The Harvard Theological Review
Charles Parham, a white Methodist pastor in the Holiness Movement was ALL FOR second blessing of sanctification, divine healing and the pre-Mil- lennial second coming of Christ
So were Agnes Ozman and the whole Bethel BIBLE , Dowie and Zion, Sandford and Shiloh – all who visited Zion and Shiloh including Tomlinson all the way to Dake
one Kansas City journalist’s description of Parham preching pre-mil, circa 1901, the year Pentecostalism was first formulated:
“Parham … has a fierce reddish-faddish beard, a voice like a pirate and a manner as brusque as a janitor in a flat.”
Philip Williams
Troy Day anachronistic scholarship!
Philip Williams
Troy Day anachronistic scholarship!
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams do you refer to your double comment posting? I dont think Faupel anachronistic at all
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams faupel is no anachronistic scholarship! – True anachronistic scholarship is to assume early Pentecostals were not pre trib since they were all pre-mil What else could they have been? post-trib pre-mil?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams They were dispensational in nature and believed in a literal return of Christ prior to him setting up a kingdom that would last 1000 years. To classify them, they would be Pre-Millennial in view of Christ’s return and hold to the Pre- Tribulation rapture theory espoused by John Nelson Darby that was prevalent.
A.H. Argue’s newspaper would state succinctly that they believed in “The Pre-Millennial, or the soon coming of Jesus.” 2 However there was a significant difference between their beliefs and the beliefs of their Holiness Movement counterparts. The earliest Pentecostals believed that Spirit Baptism was a necessary ‘sealing’ to be taken in the rapture and those without it would be left to go through the Tribulation.
Vinson Synan in his article called ‘The Second Comers’ relates this belief, “In these early days, Pentecostals commonly believed tongues was evidence of the “sealing” of the Holy Spirit, qualifying believers for the “bridehood 2 “Teaching Repentance, Confession and Restitution.” The Apostolic Messenger, March 1908 p.2 Sanger-4 saints.” Many appeals were made to the parable of the wise and foolish virgins in the Matthew 25 parable. For decades Pentecostal preachers warned their congregations of the perils of not speaking in tongues–the necessary experience to go up in the Rapture.”3 One author in the June 1925 issue of ‘The Canadian Pentecostal Testimony’ even warned his readers to not let, “The devil drive you away from Pentecostal and the power of the Spirit, and make you lose your portion in the coming of Jesus”4
The Apostolic faith, October 1906, p. 3 18 Purdie, J.E. . “Dispensations, 1st Year Lecture Notes.” (Available at Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada Archives) Sanger-13 Because of the Pre-Millennium and Pre-Tribulation view of the early Pentecostals, this amplified their view of the necessity of evangelism to a world that was about to be judged.
https://www.academia.edu/27187458/EARLY_PENTECOSTAL_ESCHATOLOGIES_AND_THEIR_EFFECT_ON_SHAPING_THE_WORLDWIDE_PENTECOSTAL_MOVEMENT_PENTECOSTAL_SPIRITUALITY_PENT0504
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams indeed thou art well wrong on your claim about early Pentecostals not believing in the rapture They did too – This is from 1907 Apostolic Faith list
Those that get left In the rapture and still prove faithful to God and do not receive the mark of the beast, though they will have to suffer martYrdom, will be raised to reign with C’hrist. Antlch.rlst wllJ reign during the tribulation and everything will be Controlled by hIm and by the false prophet, when they have succeed.ed In unIting the whole world In acknowledging tho antichrist.
The Apostolic Faith (September, 1907)
There will be two appearances of Jesus under one coming. The first appearance is called the Rapture, when He comes as a thief in the night and catches away His bride; the second is called the Revelation when He shall come with ten thousand of His saints and destroy the wicked with the brightness of His coming, and when His feet shall touch the same mount from which He ascended. But we want to be ready for the first appearance, to be caught up. We must be caught up with Him, before we can come back with Him.
——–
Nothing but holy people will meet the Lord Jesus in the skies, when He comes in the rapture. Those that had no light on the baptism with the Holy Ghost but were sanctified will have part in the first resurrection, for the Word says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection.” So we see the first resurrection is of the holy people. Those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus during the tribulation will be raised at His revelation. Rev. 20. 4 makes this plain.
***
The Lord Jesus is coming back with His bride on white horses from the marriage supper of the Lamb, to avenge His Blood on the antichrist and the false prophet.-Rev. 19:11, 14 and Jude 14, 15. The awful battle of Armageddon then takes place. Zechariah tells of this battle in the 14th chapter. Also we read in the last verse of this 14th chapter of Revelations, “And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horses’ bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.” Just think of 200 miles of blood up to the horses’ bridles.
Then the great millennium is ushered in when Jesus shall sit on His throne and reign from shore to shore. This is when, “The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock; and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.”-Isa. 65:25 and Isa. 11:6-9.
Then after we have reigned with Christ a thousand years, we shall sit on the judgment seat of Christ and judge men and angels. Then the justified and unrighteous will be raised to stand at the white throne judgment. The justified dead and those who lived during the millennium will be given everlasting life. That is the second resurrection.
Every full overcomer is going to be caught up when Jesus comes. O may God help His people that they all may meet Him in the skies. If you keep living this salvation moment by moment, you are going to be ready for the rapture, which is the coming of our Lord as a thief in the night to catch away His bride. Everyone that is not ready, like the foolish virgins, will be left to go through the awful tribulation that is coming on the earth.
and so on it all over the publication well preached and believed at Azusa
Apostolic Faith (Azusa Street) 1907_01
Apostolic Faith (Azusa Street) 1907_02
Apostolic Faith (Azusa Street) 1907_04
Apostolic Faith (Azusa Street) 1907_09
Apostolic Faith (Azusa Street) 1908_01
Apostolic Faith (Azusa Street) 1908_05
https://pentecostalarchives.org/search/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.FullTextResults
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams I expected more involvement when did the work
Philip Williams
Troy Day I am doing some more research as to precisely how the Pentecostal tradition got corrupted on this matter. ?.
Joe Absher
I like it better the third reading lol
Varnel Watson
Joe Absher go up earlier today just to read it
Joe Absher
Yup
Varnel Watson
Joe Absher truth be told I was invited to a Baptist church this week My schedule usually does not allow me much but I decided to take the invitation. Spoke on Jesus baptism with NO arguments on Trinity or oneness – as we proceeded with the teaching of the Word a lady exclaimed oh I just got the chills. Her husband shouted I feel it I feel it repeatedly And so on the service proceeded with explaining the Holy Ghost as a dove upon Jesus and the Holy Ghost fire upon the believers being so close after the Day of Pentecost Come to think about it this may have been the church Link Hudson attended and got filled when he got saved It was a missionary baptist if it helps jog memory or ring a bell or something
Link Hudson
I went to an i dependent Fiull Gospel church for much of my childhood when I luved in NC. I went to a VBS at the Missionary Baptist church for a week or so and visited once every year or two with my grandmother, sometimes for a funeral. I was invited to preach at a Missionary Baptist church when the pastor had a neck injury for a few weeks in the early 2000s. That is the extent of my involvement with that movement.
Varnel Watson
Missionary Baptist church ROCK with their VBS – I myself have not visited a dependent Fiull church – what do they depend on ?
Joe Absher
I hope to be faithful and of service to my Lord.
Varnel Watson
no one can serve him except in the Holy Ghost
Joe Absher
By faith
Varnel Watson
What about signs, wonders, healings, miracles, deliverance that are missing from Pentecostal churches today? Isara Mo What else makes us Pentecostal if not the gifts and signs?
Daniel J Hesse
Vibrant music, lights, smoke, and inspirationally motivational messages. The Cross?
Daniel J Hesse
C’mon SOMEBODY!
Isara Mo
Troy Day
If the gifts and signs are missing from ANY CHURCH it is proof that something is very amiss, and my greatest worry is that the One Missing could be the One who bought His church by His blood ie Jesus Christ
If He promised His disciples “I will be with you to the end of the age.” before His ascension, and went on to PROVE THAT HE WAS WITH THEM as witnessed in the Book of Acts, ….
The Bible (not my words) says this:
Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
Mark 16:20 NIV//
THE LORD WORKED WITH THEM AND CONFIRMED HIS WORD(NOT THEIR WORD) by the SIGNS THAT FOLLOWED….
The whole Book of Acts epitomizes what a real “Pentecostal Church ” is…or what a real “Church” should be….
If you have a ” church ” or are in a ” church” that lack Gifts and Signs and Wonders, you can’t call it a “Pentecostal Church” ..
In the Book of Acts they cast out demons, spoke in tongues, healed the sick, raised the dead, ..Jesus was working with them.The Bible says where the Spirit IS…there is LIBERTY because the Spirit is the Lord..
The opposite of that would be WHERE THERE IS NO SPIRIT THERE IS BONDAGE…BECAUSE BONDAGE IS DEMONIC…
Troy Day I don’t think a Mercedes Benz without an engine, tires, and gear box can be a Mercedes Benz inspite of its strong powerful brand name: the same with a “Pentecostal Church” without signs and wonders and miracles…
Isara Mo
Troy Day
I have used CAPS in my response not because you are deaf…but because you KNOW what a Pentecostal Church is or should be but just to make sure I make more enemies, with my reply you let me handle the snake…..
I am not afraid of the venom of a religious snake…
?
Varnel Watson
at the CROSS at the CROSS where I first…
Varnel Watson
we;ve discussed this with Peter Vandever before David Willaim Faupel have you had a chance to read The Full Gospel: A Liturgical Hermeneutic of Pentecost by W, Vondey
Isara Mo
They knew their business
Varnel Watson
They knew the Fathers business
Isara Mo
Troy Day
You are quiet right.
Why was it simple then and whh is it complex now?..
They were lead by the Spirit.
We are led by MEN
Varnel Watson
Isara Mo #CoronaVirus
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Where is the PRIDE of LIFE?. The lust of the eyes?. The lust of the flesh..
These kind don’t go away by firebrand preaching or deliverance but by a whisper of a virus..
Varnel Watson
Isara Mo PRIDE of LIFE is removed by entire sanctification Joe Absher
Joe Absher
1 Peter 1:13 KJV — Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
the seed of rebellion remains . the arm of the flesh remains . the pride of life may be smitten many times only to return as stubbornness and self righteousness and trumpet blowing and that devil idolatry . sin is a deceiver and pride is a creeper . beware dear friend of the snake in the grass .