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Bishop Tom Wright offers guidance on how to deal pastorally with questions about heaven in a discussion with Dr. Tod Bolsinger. This is a Q & A session at the Annual Pastors’ Retreat for Los Ranchos Presbytery held at Serra Retreat Center in Malibu, CA. Bishop N.T. Wright is the Bishop of Durham in the Church of England. [Video produced by Tom Dykhuizen.]
Philip Williams
But this man rejects the existence of Heaven for the saints!
Varnel Watson
the very purpose I called Link Hudson to discuss it He may think Wright is Pentecostal or something đ
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Actually it was under this video I found the direct quote of Link Hudson saying this
I had a conversation with him after a sermon once, and said something about âgoing to heaven when you die.â He said to me the Bible never once mentions going to heaven when you die. I
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/heaven-or-the-resurrection/
Philip Williams
Troy Day the Link to that video doesnât work. (Pun not intended)
Well Link is just wrong. Mortalism (Tom Wrightâs heresy) crept into Christian thought from Rabbinic Judaism. More recently championed by SDA and Jehovah Witnesses.
Those who trust in Christ will never die. He is the Eternal Life.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams works just fine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjElNncC-dg
Philip Williams
Troy Day
Tom Wright is wrong on just about everything he says here even if he is trying to eat his cake and have it still. He is wrong about the Scriptures. He is wrong about the historical theology concerning this matter. Itâs time for pompous Tom Wright to shut up and learn something about a subject that he wishes to teach.
In short, Jesus IS Heaven. When we leave this body, we will dwell in Him who fills the iniVerse. The earth is his footstool. Doesnât Tom know that Jesus is himself the Fatherâs House?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams did you read my comment on the other OP
Philip Williams
Jesus refutes Tom Wright:
âJesus said to her, âYour brother will rise again.â Martha answered, âI know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.â Jesus said to her, âI am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?ââ
ââJohn⏠â11:23-26⏠â
Philip Williams
Paul refutes Tom Wright:
âFor we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling,
For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight.â
ââ2 Corinthians⏠â5:1-2, 4-7⏠â
Philip Williams
Tom Wright has an evolutionary view of divine revelation. He actually believes that as a modern Anglican Bishop, he knows even more than Jesus, who supposed Noahâs Flood was historical! ?
Philip Williams
When Jesus returns, Heaven comes to earth.
Link Hudson
Where does the Bible teach heaven comes to earth? Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Mark uses the phrase ‘kingdom of God’.
Toward the Book of Revelation, we read that there was a new heaven and a new earth and John the new Jerusalem descending out of heaven as a bride prepared for her husband.
Philip Williams
Link Hudson descending to where? If Jesus came to earth, why can his Bride not do the same? In fact she does as Rev 21 shows. Here is the fulfillment of the OT prophecies concerning Jerusalem as the praise of all the earth.
Link Hudson
Philip Williams After the 1000 years.
Philip Williams
Link Hudson
If Jesusâs Bride is with him, which she certainly is, they will necessarily be with him when he returns. Precisely what the Scriptures teach. They rule with him on earth for 1000 years.
Link Hudson
Philip Williams We are talking about after the 1000 year reign.
Philip Williams
Link Hudson They also have to be with him at the beginning of the 1000 year reign.
Link Hudson
We will reign with Christ 1000 years. Peter says the elements will melt with fervent heat. After the 1000 years, John saw a new heaven and a new earth and the new Jerusalem descending out of heaven like a bride adorned for her husband.
Link Hudson
Btw, if I recall correctly, Troy linked to one of Dake’s arguments that the city and not the church is the bride of Christ.. if I remember it right. I see what you are saying, but I suspect Troy would not go there. He was the one I was asking for scripture. I can see you have an argument that the church may ‘go to heaven’ or be in heaven at some point…. or some heaven, maybe a new one as opposed to what exists now. Revelation doesn’t say which heaven.
Philip Williams
Link Hudson Actually the church in Heaven are already ruling and reigning with him. So are we whenever we are in the Spirit. I suppose that you are familiar with the Scriptures declaring the same.
God restrains Jesusâs Coming to save as many as possible. When he returns to judge the earth, it will be too late for repentance. All the rebellious will be destroyed by the fire of his Coming. Thus, the New Earth must begin at the beginning of the thousand years because the old one has been destroyed.
Link Hudson
Philip Williams John saw it after the 1000 years.
Philip Williams
Link Hudson the text with that vision follows Rev 20, but doesnât give a time reference. Even now, the Heavenly Jerusalem is descending as Christâs Coming is near.
Link Hudson
I’m curious what you do with the Gog and Magog passage. Do you think that is going on now?
Philip Williams
Link Hudson One cannot map Johnâs vision in a Newtonian view of time and space.
There is a sense in which Christians in America have lived in unwalled cities making them vulnerable to attacks from the camps of the enemy. Of course I am not referring to physical cities, but to churches.
The fire ending Gog and Magog reflects the fire of his Coming.
Link Hudson
Troy Day I could not get the link to work either. My stance is not as dogmatic as you make it out to be and has not veen since I joined the forum and you misrepresent me.
I would not say the idea that our disembodied spirits go to heaven when we die. One might infer that from certain passages. It is not explicitly stated and certainly not emphasized in scripture like the resurrection is.
I can agree with NT Wright tha tthe NT does not seem terribly interested in there we go immediately after death, though I did not like how he worded part of that paragraph. I have heard a great deal of emphasis on dying and going to heaven and comparatively little on our resurrection, a topic uch, much more heavily emphasized in scripture.
I cannot find the hope if heaven in scripture. I find the hope of the resurrection. We hope for Jesus to return and rapture and resurrect us. But dying and going to heaven seems to be far more emphasized than the resurrection.
Going to a Pentecostal church and having Baptist relatives, I have been to numerous funerals where the preacher or participants speak much of the deceased being in heaven with no talk of the resurrection. I went to one RCC funeral for a friend’s son where they talked a lot about the resurrection.
Varnel Watson
which Link? whycouldnt you – its working fine Seems to me every time we get down to your bapticostal heresies your linX stop working or some other easy way out
Link Hudson
Troy Day I clicked the link. It did not work. Don’t blame me. My Internet works fine for everything else.
You use ‘heresies’ oddly for someone who is said to have a doctorate in theology. Is misusing ‘heresy’ a ‘heresy’?
Link Hudson
Where Wright really nisses it is on the rapture. He talks about being Gianluca but speaks against something right in scripture. I have not read his book. Does he and do those who hace a similar viewpoint actually reject the ideal tgat transformed saints will be cauggt up or does he reject a pretrib scenario from the Left Behind mivies And earlier liwer budget films? Those with his eduxation shoukd do a bit Of reading and know tgat ‘rapture’ is in reference to actual scripture.
RichardAnna Boyce
The Greek word which is often translated as heaven is ouranos. Yes, it sometimes refers to the place where believers who have died are now.
But more often it refers to the place where the birds fly. It is sometimes translated as sky, sometimes as air, and sometimes as heaven when what is meant is the atmosphere around the earth. See Matt 6:26; 8:20; 13:32; Mark 4:4, 32; Luke 13:19; Acts 10:12; 11:6.
In Scripture that is the first heaven.
It also often refers to the place where the stars and the planets outside our solar system are. Outer space is often called the heavens. When God created âthe heavens and the earth,â the heavens there refers to all the planets and the stars outside of earth. See Heb 1:10-11; 2 Pet 3:7, 10, 12; 21:1.
In Scripture that is the second heaven.
Occasionally, but not oftenâexcept in the Book of Revelationâthe term ouranos refers to the place where Godâs glory is localized and where departed believers await Christâs return. See 2 Cor 12:2-4; Rev 4:1-11; 8:1-6; 16:11.
That is called the third heaven in Scripture.
The Lord Jesus and His Apostles Said That the Current Heavens Will Be Destroyed
When the Scriptures say that âheaven will pass away,â they do not mean the third heaven will pass away. That refers to the first and second heavens.
The entire universe, except for the third heaven, will be destroyed and the taint of sin completely eliminated. Sin, I believe, is why we will get a new universe.
Link Hudson
Third heaven is mentioned. Is there any scripture that indicated what the second heaven would be? One theory is that it is a realm inhabited by demons and principalities through which angels pass.
Link Hudson
Troy Day clearly believes in resurrecting the dead when it comes to discussion topics.
Varnel Watson
not even clear what this means to confirm or deny it
Link Hudson
You keep reposting dead threads, just about every day.
Varnel Watson
you dont see the OP, the website post or the video ??? all 3 working well Stop the false claims and look at this very much working Link http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/would-the-church-go-to-heaven/
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Link Hudson
Troy Day Read what I said. You repost dead threads–threads, threads posted long ago.
Varnel Watson
The only dead Link is the one you deleted to get out of the bapticostal nonsense you put out The rest are carefully archived here – click read remember EAsy as 1 2 3 https://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/search/?query=heaven%20link&epa=SEARCH_BOX
Link Hudson
Troy Day Btw, thank you for presenting the information that shows you misrepresented my viewpoint. As you can see, I was relaying what that dean said, and even he did not say Christians never go to heaven.
I have asked you for scripture about Christians going to heaven in the past. Feel free to post on the topic if you wish.
If you find a line in one of my posts you consider ‘heretical’ (which seems to mean you disagree with it as opposed to it causing true division in the body or fitting into the category of one of the historical heresies), then quote it and scripture to back up your assertion that it is a heresy.
Also, if you are wrong about someone’s past posts, it is best to humbly apologize rather than to level accusations toward that person.
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson Thank you for confirming there was no misrepresentation in the quote of your own claims and these are indeed your own words Well, it’s kind of hard not to when you open the Link and your picture is next to them NOW you need to explain what do you mean BY
1. the Bible never once mentions going to heaven when you die.
2. any pre-tribber believe we go to heaven to be with Jesus forever after the rapture
because they are BOTH wrong – what exactly do you mean?
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/heaven-or-the-resurrection/
Link Hudson
1. Again you misrepresent me. My position is that this is not directly stated. I also pointed out that the Biblixal focus is on the resurrection when it comes to the afterlife. People infer from certain verses that the spirits of the disembodied dead die and go go heaven.
2. When did I ever say that? I pointed out (somewhere… Maybe this forum) that a news piece about NT right presented this as the popular view of thd rapture and I objected to it.
You havve shown the quotes from which you got the misrepresentation of my viewpoint in point 1. Go ahead and fo it in point 1.
I do not belueve I have deleted any posts on this topic. It has been years. It is more likely I have editted for spelling or wording than deleted anything. If I gad deleted something that would be my right. But your accusation does not make sense to me because that copyright infringibg website of yours copies the whole thread.
You are really leaving yourself wide open for a lawsuit. If you get one of those people who registers a federal copyright which has a minimum fine of 50 or 60k minimum, then has a lawyer send letters asking for a large settlement cheaper than litigation. The defense lawyer would advise to settle. We give Facebook rights to useour material and this stuff is password protected.
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson I am not misrepresent you because I dont know you personally or well enough to misrepresent you in particular neither I care much about doing so. I quoted YOUR OWN writing word for word – how do you feel that your own writing is misrepresent you? or better asked misrepresent your own disbelief in the heavens? Tell us pls
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson I do not know your view in order to misrepresent jut quoted your own words
I have not summarised your view but simply quoted your words
I am afraid even you dont know your view but this STILL DONT answer how is a QUOTE of your own words misrepresent your or your views or whatever? Its a quote – straight 1:1
Are you now saying you did NOT say what your quote says you are saying? Wouldnt you agree you are pretty confusing right about now arguing your own words?
Link Hudson
Troy Day I have no problem with my own words. Five posts or do above is a two point summary from you that misrepresents my views. I already addressed both points.
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson There is no 2 point summary You are making untruthful accusations again There was a 2 point quote of your own writing word for word That’s all End of story
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
I find it interesting like Link Hudson that we seem to focus more on heaven than resurrection. If heaven is coming to earth than in fact shouldnât we focus more on the resurrection of the dead and the catching away of those who are alive. Seems we donât preach much on the rapture any longer, or about end times. We get stuck on pre-grin, post-trib, or mid-Trib. Things that wonât Matter if you live unholy.
Varnel Watson
woah horsey – if there is NO going to heaven where are the dead in Christ right now as we speak? In the GRAVE
Varnel Watson
does ANYONE still believe that?
Sing the wondrous love of Jesus
Sing his mercy and his grace
In the mansions bright and blessed
He’ll prepare for us a place
When we all get to heaven
What a day of rejoicing that will be
When we all see Jesus
We’ll sing and shout the victory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVh687Kcnbo