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Patrick Andrews | PentecostalTheology.com
Matthew 24 Part III
By Pat Andrews
12-31-2019
My friends who call themselves Preterist, don’t agree with me that the disciples asked Jesus more than one question in Matthew 24:3; they avow that it’s only one question. They say that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, was also when Jesus returned. They believe that Jesus returned for the last time in 70 AD.
It is mandatory that they hold this view; they are forced into it. They believe the devil is gone, there is no judgment day, the earth will last forever, that we are all being judged right now, that Jesus died spiritually (It scares me to even write this blasphemous remark), that there will be no physical, literal bodily resurrection from the grave, and on and on it goes. I will cover any of these that you like, just let me know.
The reason that I cut off one of the questions in the previous lesson at verse 39, is because of the Greek Word, ***“Parousia”***. The definition is given here:
Strongs Lexicon # 3952. parousia ***parousia***, par-oo-see’-ah
from the present participle of 3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect:–coming, presence.
This word, “Parousia” is found four times in Matthew 24. Verse 3, 27, 37 and 39. You look at the definition; you decide how the word, “Parousia” is defined in these four verses. I will tell you this, all four times the word “Parousia” is used, it means the same thing, in all four of the verses. (Remember…Context)
Notice this: I asked this question in the previous lesson:
· In verses 4 through 39, “The Coming of the Lord” is compared three different times to something else. What are those three things that it’s compared to? I cut this question off at verse 39 because of the Greek Word, “PAROUSIA”. I’ll explain next time.
I asked this question in this way because I wanted you to figure out how verse 27 fits into this narrative. Is the word, “Parousia” in this verse referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, or is Jesus saying, “…don’t be deceived…if they say I’m here or there or in the desert etc. etc, don’t believe those lies, ***because*** My “Parousia”; My second coming will be like this…verse 27, 37 and 39?
I believe that Jesus is comparing His second coming to lightning (vs. 27), to the suddenness of Noah’s flood while everyone was just carrying on their regular activities (vs. 37) and to the finality of that judgment (vs.39). You must decide what you believe. Your faith must be your own.
There is another Greek Word that is used in the other verses of Matthew 24 that speaks of something coming or appearing. Sometimes, it is even speaking of the coming of Christ or the coming of the lord…notice the lower case “L” in these verses. That word is:
***“Erchomai”***. It’s definition is as follows:
Strongs Interlinear #2064. ercomai ***erchomai***, er’-khom-ahee
middle voice of a primary verb
(used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice)
eleuthomai el-yoo’-thom-ahee, or (active) eltho el’-tho,
which do not otherwise occur)
to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):–accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.
This word is of no use to us right now; I just wanted you to know the difference in the two Greek Words. I will get back to this difference later and we will spend some more time on it, God Willing. It’s found 8 times in Matthew 24. You can see for yourself how it is defined and used.
**Mt 24:5 ** For many shall *come* **
**Mt 24:30** And then shall *appear* **
**Mt 24:39** And knew not until the flood *came* **
**Mt 24:42** Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth *come* **
**Mt 24:43** But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would *come* **
**Mt 24:44** Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man *cometh* **
**Mt 24:46** Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he *cometh* **
**Mt 24:48 ** But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his *coming ***
Now to the “DAY OF THE LORD”, the stars falling etc, etc, in Verses 29-31. These three verses are highly figurative. They are not literally talking about stars falling and so forth. There are numerous prophecies that use similar language in the Old Testament; prophecies that foretell a coming judgment on a specific nation. I’m not going to copy the verses, but I will show where you can find them, and you can decide what they mean.
**Isaiah 13:1-13 **Isaiah is here prophesying against Babylon. A nation that God was about to bring Judgment on. Read all the similarities of this passage and Matthew 24:29-31. The world wasn’t coming to an end, (well maybe the Babylonians thought it might be).
This coming judgment on Babylon by the Medes took place while Daniel was in Babylon in his later years, around 500 BC.
**Ezekiel 32:1-11** Ezekiel is prophesying against Egypt and he is using the same kind of figurative language that Isaiah and Christ used. Notice all the similarities. Babylon would be the one who would carry out this judgment.
Joel 1, 2 and 3 The destruction is going to come upon Zion itself if she doesn’t repent. Same figurative language.
**“THE DAY OF THE LORD”**is **not always** talking about the end of the world. It speaks of coming judgment. Look at these prophets of old and see how similar they are to Matthew 24. See also Obadiah 1:15 and Zephaniah 1:14-15. Notice the things that are going to happen on the day of the Lord. All of these passages in the Old Testament are referring to a nation; a small portion of the world.
However; the Bible also speaks of a final “Day of The Lord”; that is the one that applies to us today. That day of the Lord is not just to one nation of folks…The “DAY OF THE LORD” that is still to come is for the entire world. Once again, the context determines the understanding of the scope of that day. I could put up more verses, but just consider this one:
**II Peter 3:10** But **the day of the Lord** will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Ask yourself some questions. Is this, **“DAY OF THE LORD”**, in **II Peter 3:10** talking about the destruction of only India or only Iraq or only Brittan or only Argentina or only Arkansas or only America or only Minot, North Dakota or only the Boy Scouts of America or only all Wal-Mart stores…or is this, **“DAY OF THE LORD”** greater in scope than all those **“DAY OF THE LORD”**’s of previous prophecies.
You have to decide for yourself. Your faith must be your faith.
God willing, there will be more to come on this chapter.
1300 words. Sorry, I went past the 1000 word goal.
David Odom
Posts begins with a straw man.
Alaina Reilly
If they believe the devil is gone then they are the stupidest, most spiritual dull minded, deceived people in the world. Why are you still keeping any of them in your life?
Troy Day
SO Neil Steven Lawrence IF post-trib is really true WHO will be the ones LEFT BEHIND after it? JUST asking for a friend who read in MT 24 one is taken one left behind
But couldnt figure out left behind to what IF trib is already over… you MAY note Link Hudson would boast a lot about MT 24 but when sees it for what it actually says will stay away from it like demon from garlic 🙂 Unfortunately, this time google search will not help him much – no problem of course. I will wait till 2023 for the next good one…
Brett Dobbs
I think the author here is missing something very important. He says the old T prophecies were speaking figuratively. I highly disagree. Many of these are double prophecies. One in part is speaking of the Babylonian invasion that was about to occur. And while at the same time speaking of the last days. Day of the Lord.
A great example of speaking of two things at once is Isaiah 14. God begins speaking about the king of Babylon to speaking about Lucifer.
Anonymous
I think the author here is missing something very important. He says the old T prophecies were speaking figuratively. I highly disagree. Many of these are double prophecies. One in part is speaking of the Babylonian invasion that was about to occur. And while at the same time speaking of the last days. Day of the Lord.
A great example of speaking of two things at once is Isaiah 14. God begins speaking about the king of Babylon to speaking about Lucifer.
Troy Day
Brett Dobbs stated
I think the author here is missing something very important. He says the old T prophecies were speaking figuratively. I highly disagree. Many of these are double prophecies. One in part is speaking of the Babylonian invasion that was about to occur. And while at the same time speaking of the last days. Day of the Lord.
A great example of speaking of two things at once is Isaiah 14. God begins speaking about the king of Babylon to speaking about Lucifer.
there is much Phil Thorne needs to explain about this in the future
Troy Day
Nate Ridgeway stated in general about the rapture NOT about Mt 24 per se the following
So here’s the thing: it’s really difficult to have this conversation between people who really know what it means to be theologically post-tribulation rapture theorists, and those who consider themselves pre-TRIB. Reason being… Authentic post-trib rapture believers do not consider the tribulation to equate to the things that pre-trib believers do.
In more recent times and among more uneducated believers, “post-trib” Has been assumed to be a position that says an individual believes that Jesus will return following seven years of great tribulation. However, historically most scholars who take the position of a post-tribulation rapture theory… these scholars did not subscribe to the tribulation as a seven-year period of time or even a 3 1/2 year period of time. But rather the tribulation was something altogether different.
So if you are bantering theology correctly, the conversation cannot come down to a multiple choice selection. Rather, you would be looking at more of an “essay question” format, because there are just for too many new wants is in the conversation
Troy Day
Nate Ridgeway I cant say I have ever heard this one before actually
BUT what is an Authentic post-trib rapture believer? I am yet to meet one – are these the people occupying a pew in the church waiting for the antiChrist to take over them so they run in the wilderness and grow corn with Gary Micheal Epping ?
Troy Day
SO After a day of waiting Link Hudson is finally posting on my question on MT @4 namely
IF post-trib is really true WHO will be the ones LEFT BEHIND after it?
His answer is this: “””Using the one taken and another left passage from Matthew 24 to refer to a pretrib rapture scenario makes no sense at all since the setting is clearly after the tribulation.”””
This is blindly following a foolish idea without even knowing what pre-trib is all about. HOW can one answer the question
WHO will be the ones LEFT BEHIND after the TRIB
but stating:
Using the one taken and another left passage from Matthew 24 to refer to a pretrib rapture scenario makes no sense
Clearly something is not clicking in such avoidance dis-logic to an uttermost point
Nate Ridgeway
Troy: let me start here: we know that the “last days” have been around at least since the days of Pentecost.
Joel‘s prophecy stated that the things he wrote would happen in the last days. Not “at the beginning“ of the last days; but “in” the last days.
On the day of Pentecost, Peter pronounced that what was happening all around them was a fulfillment of Joel‘s prophecy. So we know that the “last days“ began at some point prior to the day of Pentecost. Because on the day of Pentecost, according to Peter‘s testimony, they were officially in the last days.
So in order to have an eschatological conversation, we would have to be willing to really spend some time honoring each other and have a willingness to come to terms with the fact that we would have to define words and phrases as to what they mean to each of us when we use them. Because we could say the same word, but the meaning to different things.
For instance, I don’t think that the tribulation would mean the same thing to you that it does to me, because I am not a dispensationalist.
Troy Day
yes yes Nate Ridgeway much of this is well known of course and no one is opposing it. My direct question to Link Hudson Gary Micheal Epping was very very simple
IF post-trib is really true WHO will be the ones LEFT BEHIND after it?
They should have a ready to go simply explanation
I’ll wait…
Brett Dobbs
Troy Day I would say that Nate’s statement is a fair statement.
Post and pre trib both define things differently.
For example: is it the 7 year great tribulation. Or is it simply the 70th week?
Me being post trib, I never refer to that time period as the 7 year tribulation. I always call it the 70th week. The later half is the great tribulation.
Nate Ridgeway
Troy: but again… The very question you are asking presupposes a certain ideology of what it means to have a “tribulation“. The question that you ask cannot be answered simply by either the antagonist or the protagonist. There are far too many defining of terms that must be had before such a question can be responded to simplistically.
Troy Day
Nate Ridgeway not @ all not @ all SIMPLY asking left behind to what?
Troy Day
what is your take on this Oscar Valdez ?
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day Great! You bring your garlic and I’ll bring my silver bullets! 🧛♂️ 🚄 🧄
Troy Day
SO basically Neil Steven Lawrence post-trib is a cruise to NOwhere #gotIT and Link Hudson knows this one well – NOW how do you mean different terms Nate Ridgeway RAPTURE means rapture – how else would one define it? Oscar Valdez John Mushenhouse Michael Chauncey
Oscar Valdez
Troy Day My take on this is just the Baptist pre-trib dispensacional way of understanding Scripture.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day sooo… the Post-trib goal posts have changed over time, unknown to them? 🤔
Troy Day
not sure how you did that Nate Ridgeway but you can still answer my question instead of avoiding it and we can talk about it with Neil Steven Lawrence
NOW Michael Chauncey just posted something about 2 tribs in MT 24 and I would like to discuss them when he posts it in this thread
Troy Day
Oscar Valdez yes it is Baptist – I wish you get under some solid Pentecostal teachings at the seminary to get it out of your system with authentic non-disp. pentecostal pre-trib as we believed in our beginnings
Troy Day
The very question I was asking does not in NO way presuppose a certain ideology of what it means to have a “tribulation“ Nate Ridgeway as a matter of fact I compare in my question the very essence of MT 24 tribulational eschatology reading straight from the text
I did not discover the term – left behind – JESUS said it Himself
so we cannot say He meant 2 different things now can we?
I am not sure how you can claim that except for splitting hairs with GOD
Oscar Valdez
Troy Day Well you never got to explain it right! Dayton never affirmed that dispensationalism should not be part in the eschatology of Pentecostalism.
Michael Chauncey
Troy Day Two tribulations mentioned in the Olivet Discourse?
Jesus spoke about the destruction of the temple and the siege of Jerusalem and then He seemed to shift to a coming global tribulation that will culminate in the literal physical second coming of Christ.
In Luke 21:21-24 Jesus specifically mentioned a tribulation that would effect only Jerusalem and Judea.
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Then, in verses 22-24 Jesus seemed to widen the scope. Our attention is draws to the great global tribulation that will effect all the nations the nations of the earth.
There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves. Men will faint from fear and anxiety over what is coming upon the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”Two tribulations mentioned in the Olivet Discourse?
Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple and the siege of Jerusalem and then He seems to shift to a coming global tribulation that will culminate in the literal physical second coming of Christ.
In Luke 21:21-24 Jesus specifically mentions a tribulation that will effect only Jerusalem and Judea.
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Then, in verses 25-28 Jesus seems to widen the scope. Our attention is draws to a global tribulation that will effect all the nations the nations of the earth.
There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves. Men will faint from fear and anxiety over what is coming upon the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Anonymous
hey Link were you able to find resurrection in Mt 24?
Anonymous
Troy Day here it is. Matthew 24:30-30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Which matches up with this.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (KJV) 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
John 6:44 (KJV)
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
That happens here.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (KJV) 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Which happens after this.
Matthew 24:29-29 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs yes you mix and match BUT you cannot find the word resurrection in mt24 is basically the situation Alike Link you get stuck there and this is not even a touch spot in the BIBLE
if you cannot find resurrection in mt 24 you cannot related it to 2 thes and most certianly cannot related it to 2thess AS Duane L Burgess stated – this is a text referring to ISRAEL hense in intro to NT101 we call it the Olivette Discourse AS Neil Steven Lawrence Michael Chauncey well know…
Anonymous
Troy Day John 11:24 (KJV)
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
John 6:39 (KJV)
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
When is the last day?
When do the saints who goes through the tribulation get raised? Is it the last day?
Jesus never says he will raise some, and then he will raise the rest that are his at a later time.
Jesus says he will raise all that are his at the same time. Which is the last day. Paul refers to it as the Day of Christ.
So therefore if Jesus raises all that are his before the 70th week then he cannot raise anymore afterwards. Meaning the tribulation saints will not be resurrected. But we do see them being resurrected and receiving white robes in revelation 7 and in revelation 20. It even says that they will rule with Christ for 1,000 years.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs no martha no john
to claim CHURCH RAPTURE in Mt 24
first show resurrection in mt 24
since the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST
you need to show ressureciton before you claim the text reffers to rapture of any sort #sorry
you cannot assert Pauline pre=trib to Mathean Olivete Discorse while missing the MAIN point of resurrection This is comaparing apples to oranges or in this case with olives as Duane L Burgess already showed in this post
Anonymous
Troy Day Matthew 24:31-31 (KJV) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs this means what to you exactly? no resurrection here…
Anonymous
Troy Day yeah it is
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs the four winds refer to earth not the world of the dead; from one end of heaven to the other also does not speak of resurrection. As Duane L Burgess rightly asserted the elect here are none other but the Israel of God during the Tribulation. Who else could it be?
Anonymous
Troy Day when do the saints get resurrected and raptured?
Anonymous
James Pinkerton
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs dakota- Matthew is not talking about the same thing 2 thessalonians 2:1. Matthew is not the rapture, but 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is talking about the rapture
Anonymous
Katie N Dakota Morrow it is and isn’t. No Matthew doesn’t directly mention the calling up of the dead in Christ and those who still remain. However, that doesn’t exclude that event from occurring within that time frame that Jesus gives. Jesus is giving an overview of the events that are taking place. It is a part of a larger puzzle. Paul gives a more detailed explanation of one specific event that Jesus gave a overview of. John does the same thing in revelation.
Jesus never mentions 7 seals and 7 trumpets and 7 vials of wrath, but just because Jesus never mentions it doesn’t mean that their not talking about the same thing. Jesus gives a general overview of the 70th week. John gives a very detailed account of it.
Also, to do a more accurate study of Matthew 24, you have to look at the other gospels and those accounts of the olivet discourse. Luke records some details that Matthew doesn’t record.
Combine them.
Anonymous
Katie N Dakota Morrow that’s why I really like this website. It combines the scriptures that relate and goes hand in hand that paints that big picture and contains all the details.
http://accordingtoscriptures.com/end-time-bible-prophecy/
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs dakota- it may be part of a larger puzzle, the event in 2 thessalonians 2:1 is the rapture where the church is caught up, but the event in Matthew is not talking about the church being caught up (rapture).
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs- I read some of that link which the gospels are talking about the same thing, but 2 Tessalonians is not talking about the same exact thing bc it is talking about the rapture in 2 thessalonians 2:1 but Matthew and the other gospels with the passages the link had are not talking about being caught up (rapture).
Anonymous
Katie N Dakota Morrow but Matthew does speak of his coming. And that is the time when he does call up the church. Then when you add Luke’s account of the olivet discourse, you see the spot where Jesus says “and when you shall see all these things, look up, for your redemption draweth nigh.”
Overall another thing to keep in mind, is that the style or nature of Matthews gospel, is messianic. As the Jewish messiah. There’s an overshadowing that is unique in each gospel account.
Matthew- messiah-Jewish,
Luke- Jesus humanity- Gentiles,
Mark- the suffering servant- both Jew and gentiles.
John- Jesus is God in the flesh. Jew and gentile.
Revelation 6 is the overview of the entire 70th week ending with the wrath of the lamb is about to come. It hasn’t came yet but it’s about to happen. Then we have the interlude or cut scene of the heavenly vision of ch 7. Where we see the 144,000 (the elect mentioned in Matthew 24,) then we see the multitude that no man could number from every tribe, tongue, and nation who came out of the great tribulation. These are the ones who looked up for their redemption draweth nigh mentioned in Luke 21.
The angels gathered the 144,000 while at the same time Jesus called up the church/multitude.
John 6:40 (KJV)
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Anonymous
Dakota- what scripture are you referring to for the rapture of the church in matthew?
Anonymous
Katie N Dakota Morrow this one shows the parallels.
http://accordingtoscriptures.com/parallelcharts/
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs what does ANY of this have to do with your comment ==> here it is. Matthew 24:30-30 (KJV)
are we still talking about resurrection James Pinkerton Katie N Dakota Morrow
Anonymous
Troy Day James Pinkerton Katie N Dakota Morrow
Matthew 24:31 says that there will be a gathering at the great sound of a trumpet. From the 4 winds, which is a metaphor for the entire earth. Just like the 4 corners of the earth.
Ezekiel 37:9 (KJV)
Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
There’s your resurrection. It’s at the gathering together. Just as mentioned in Matthew 24 and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1
Anonymous
Matt 24 is about ethnic national Israel in the future 7 year Tribulation, Daniel’s 70th week, her time of Jacob’s trouble.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess I have held this view for a very long time from the context of the 1st gospel there basically
WHO is JESUS speaking to
Link Hudson relates here to rapture but 2thes is NOT written at the time when Jesus spoke Neither is PAUL using the same terminology one-taken one LEFT BEHIND
The LEFT behind terminology does not fit post-trib because what and WHEN are they left behind to? a split secont – this makes absolutely NO sense The church will jump up and down in the air for a second AND this would be considered LEFT BEHIND? dont think so – – – Philip Williams Neil Steven Lawrence Michael Chauncey Jerome Herrick Weymouth
BRO Darnell Henson Jr. will you pls re-POST your scripture list related to pre-trib rapture because Link Hudson seems to have missed them or forgotten them the first 10 times you posted them in the group THANKS
Anonymous
Troy Day
Don’t you just love it when people say that there will NOT be a third Temple during the Great tribulation and yet Paul mentions IN Thessalonians 2:4 About the Antichrist SITTING in the temple?
Anonymous
Troy Day The audience is explicitly stated.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, 👉the disciples came unto him👈 privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Why would you interpret the passage to refer to events that do not apply to Jesus’ disciples at all.
Don’t assume I interpret words and phrases like ‘left behind’ according to your interpretative system. I don’t believe ‘left behind’ refers to people left behind from the rapture for a seven year tribulation, specially since the setting is explicitly ‘after the tribulation.’
All this stuff is set AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. That’s when the ‘coming of the Son of man’ passage is set, and when the ‘days of Noah’ passage is set. So interpreting ‘left behind’ to refer to a pre-trib rapture doesn’t make sense. That would have already occurred seven years before, and this is talking about the coming of the Son of man after the tribulation. (I am assuming you are interpreting this from a futurist, not preterist perspective.)
21 For then shall be 👉great tribulation👈….
29 Immediately 👉after the tribulation👈 of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see 👉the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven👈 with power and great glory.
36 But 👉of that day and hour👈 knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the 👉days of Noah were👈, so shall also the 👉coming of the Son of man be.👈
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and 👉took them all away👈; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; 👉the one shall be taken, and the other left.👈
There is nothing here about Jesus returning twice. I could get if you had objections if you were preterist, but if the coming of the Son of man refers to a literal coming of Christ, then it happens AFTER the tribulation.
And these verses, that so many pretribbers like to use are set AFTER the tribulation. No man knoweth the day or the hour…. referring to these events that take place ‘after the tribulation’ (v. 29.) The days of Noah and one taken and the other left… again AFTER the tribulation.
You should also consider that when the flood __took away__ the wicked, that probably wasn’t pleasant for them.
I challenge you to give me a reasoned response to the points I’ve made here. You could also answer the question as to why these verses should be used for a pretrib rapture when the passage sets them after the tribulation.
Just reading the passage straight through debunks a lot of the pretrib preaching I’ve read on the subject.
Anonymous
Troy Day If being ‘taken’ in the flood is BAD, why ‘taken’ in ‘one is taken and another left’ be a good thing? Forget about pretrib sermons and ‘left behind’ movie titles. You are creating some kind of theological problem based on the history of interpretation of how a phrase (‘left behind’) has been interpreted for less than two centuries.
Matthew 24 sets the ‘left behind’ verse at the coming of the Son of man with ‘so shall the coming of the Son of man be’ and the same chapter sets the coming of the Son of man ‘after the tribulation’ of those days.
Anonymous
Link Hudson Once again you dramatically argue something I never said – just like any typical strawman would do when out of bullets. I am simply requesting that IF you are going to connect Mt 24 to the resurrection of the NT saints in 1 Thes 4 (NT here being a very key word here), you must produce the resurrection out of Mt 24 alone, which so far you have not?
Anonymous
Troy Day Apply the same standards to pre-trib Why don’t you go ahead and start burning the pretrib charts if that is the case.
I responded to this, “The LEFT behind terminology does not fit post-trib because what and WHEN are they left behind to? a split secont – this makes absolutely NO sense ”
As if non-pretribbers are going to think that ‘left behind’ means the same thing it does in the pretrib scene.
Anonymous
Link Hudson You are again comparing apples to oranges; Simply put, you have not even thought until this point in life THAT the resurrection is NOT even mentioned in MT 24; What else can I say here?
Anonymous
Troy Day Silly argument on your part. Is the resurrection mentioned in II Thessalonians 2? Do you believe our gathering the Lord at His coming is preceded by a resurrection?
Don’t you believe that there is a resurrection around some of the Matthew 24 events yourself? You are holding me to a different standard? Don’t you believe that deceased tribulational saints will be resurrected at or immediately after the Second Coming?
Anonymous
Link Hudson None of this is actually what I’ve said – I am simply asking to you show resurrection in Matthew 24 if you are going to connect it with resurrection in 2 thes – this is actually pretty simple, no?
Anonymous
Troy Day Matthew 24 does not mention the resurrection. It mentions at least one other event associated with the resurrection.
Anonymous
Troy Day I love those points… they sound familiar… 
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence tell us more about it – which ones specifically ?
Anonymous
Just as the book of Revelation moves back-and-forth in time showing it is written from th eternal pperspective of the throne of God; so Jesus gives his Matthew 24 Eschatological Discourse in a similar manner going back-and-forth inside the Eschaton. The events are not listed in direct time order. 
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence this is the traditional disp. view Oscar Valdez
Anonymous
Troy Day I would not classify myself as dispensational since I have not read any of the dispensational material except maybe Hal Lindsay.  I’m just calling balls and strikes as I see the scripture lays it out. 
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m not traditional disp. but progressive disp!
Anonymous
SORRY Link Hudson I just saw your post in the spam where FB puts you now
What wrong translation were you given?
DAKE did not know Greek or Hebrew
neither do you – so you would not know if myself or John Mushenhouse gave you the wrong translation when you only source is gnostic websites? You and Brett Dobbs have are still trying to find the resurrection in Mt24 without any luck so fur
Anonymous
Troy Day must give an acciunt for every idle word. I cut and pasted from a website when I found a quote from Irenaeus on a web search. That doesn’t mean I use Gnostic Bibles.
You use knowledge of Greek to posture. But usually when you tefer to your knowledge of Greek it seems like you do so to promote some strange theory. I am a new student of Greek but I was able to debunk your post that the Greek supported Dakws ideas that ‘after these things’ must mean after the churches in Revelation 4:1.
Anonymous
Link Hudson yes you cut and paste all the time
You cut and paste because you dont know
There is not shame in that – but not being able to prove resurrection in Mt24 after youVE claimed it all your cut and pastes NOW that’s a darn shame
Why jump to Rev 4 when you cant even prove Mt24?
Anonymous
Troy Day I’ve cut and pasted for OPs, and if I post something in a subthread I think is worthy of being a thread on it’s own. I cut and paste Bible verses and other quotes.
Prove that our Lord’s response in Matthew 24 is about Israel in general and not about Jesus disciples, when it is addressed to Jesus’ disciple,.
Anonymous
Prove that ‘Come up hither’ has anything to do with the rapture of the church or a pre-tribulation rapture.
Prove that the use of ‘kai’ in Greek means that you can’t see unless you go.
Anonymous
Link Hudson Why?
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs the verse you cited for resurrection actually says
gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other
which Michael Chauncey and Neil Steven Lawrence rightly noted already THAT if the said resurrection gathering is done from one end of the heavens to the other THEN the church must be already in haven? THERE James Pinkerton
Anonymous
Troy Day what?
If the resurrection gathering is from one end of heavens to the other then that means the church is already there. Please explain what your getting at here. Because that is making no sense to me.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs what further explanation is needed?
from one end of the heavens to the other
is pretty plain language
Anonymous
Troy Day I don’t think you have any clue of what that metaphor is explaining. Please explain it to me.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs Son even if I do not have a clue you are not have enough education to prove it 🙂 for crying out loud this is the first time in your whole life someone pointed out that you cannot show resurrection in Mt24 – does this alone not prove I do have at least some clue about it? You really should listen to James Pinkerton about the RAPTURE
Anonymous
Troy Day Matthew 24 does not directly say the word resurrection. Nor does Matthew 24 directly describe the details of raising the dead.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs CORRECT therefore you and Link Hudson cannot directly connect the subject of resurrection in 1/2Thess THE subject of resurrection is not an unified one – you cannot prove there is only ONE resurrections and As John Mushenhouse already explained you cannot pin it down to 1 point in time Duane L Burgess already rightly asserted how Mt24 referred to the JEWS and anyone will have very hard time proving resurrection of the church from Mt24 except if you presume the gathering in from one end of heaven to the other is the raptured church
Anonymous
Troy Day you say one cannot prove that there is only one resurrection. Can one prove that there is multiple resurrections?
The only direct verse that I know of that refers to two resurrections is in Revelation 20 where it says “blessed is he who is in the 1st resurrection, the 2nd death has no power over them. Because in the described second resurrection, is when all the souls are delivered up out of Hell and face the white thrown judgment. And those are judged by their works. And whosoever’s name is not found written in the Lambs book of life is cast into the lake of fire.
The first and second resurrection is divided by a span of 1,000 years.
But perhaps you believe in 3 resurrections.
2 before the 1,000 years and one after. And those first is separated by a 7 year period.
This theory that just describe is found no where in the Bible.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs Actually I did not say ANY of this
I most certain did NOT say ANY of what you claimed:
Troy Day you say one cannot prove that there is only one resurrection.
My exact words were, I quote;
anyone will have very hard time proving resurrection of the church from Mt24
there is in fact SEVERAL MAJOR differences between what I said , what you understood and what you said following…
1. hard time instead of cannot like you claimed
2. resurrection of the church NOT only one resurrection
3, from Mt24 NOT in general like you implied
Anonymous
Troy Day the burden a proof is on those who want to say that there is a resurrection before the first resurrection. #duh
Anonymous
Matt. 24 is about ethnic national Israel in the future 7 year tribulation, Daniel’s 70th week, her time of Jacob’s trouble.
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping I’ve never claimed that in Mat 24, Jesus does or does not mention anything resembling a pretrib rapture. This is a false witness. I have made many observations of Mt24 and have agreed every time with Duane L Burgess it refers to ISRAEL alone There is NO reference of NTchurch or rapture in Mt 24 and you cannot show resurrection in Mt24 either like Brett Dobbs
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping ALL you’ve done is misquote me so far … but it aint gonna fly this time 🙂 SHOW US resurrection in Mt 24 if you can of course
Anonymous
Troy Day
Matthew 24:5-5 (KJV) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
How many have come to Israel claiming to be the messiah?
Matthew 24:9-9 (KJV) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
So have the nations hated Israel because of their faith in Jesus?
Matthew 24:10-10 (KJV) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
So many of these Jews get offended because they’re being persecuted by the nations for loving Jesus. But this doesn’t relate to Christians?
Matthew 24:12-14 (KJV) 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
So it’s Israel’s job to preach the gospel not the churches job.
24:15-21 is speaking of an event that will take place in Judaea. The great tribulation does begin in Israel. But according to many other scriptures it covers various places. It effects the whole earth. Persecution through out the whole earth.
Matthew 24:30-30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
All the tribes of the earth mourn. Not just those in Israel see this.
But here is what it boils down to. The gospel Matthew is messianic. But he is not just the messiah for the Jews and Israel. He is also the messiah to the gentiles as well. And once we are in Christ, there is no more Jew or gentile. We co equally belong to him.
“Oh but it’s the time of jacobs trouble”.
Well, I will gladly hold their hand as they go through their trouble. Because their trouble will extend throughout the whole earth.
We shouldn’t be making end time doctrine with just Matthew alone. We should consider all the gospels, and all the epistles, and all the prophets.
Take off the dispensational lens and consider the entire council of God.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs you keep on posting this BUT no resurrection still 🙂
Anonymous
Troy Day “Sorry but I have not misquoted you. Stop getting all uptight. I basically said that you claim a pretrib rapture, but Jesus does not mention it at all in Mat 24. Have a good day. If this is not the resurrection and rapture in Mat 24:29-31, then what is it? “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This says that after the Tribulation Jesus will come to resurrect and rapture the church which leads to the Day of the Lord.””
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping dont get wrong in your heart brother Mt 24 says it straight saints IN heaven – how did they get there 🙂
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I will take my time tonight I think to copy some of the essential points in which Gary Micheal Epping errs in his eternal post-tribalism; Duane L Burgess has already shown MT 24 refers to ISRAEL and there is NO mention of the NT church there; Alike Brett Dobbs Gary cannot show resurrection in MT 24 either @least Brett has done an honest effort and as James Pinkerton noticed resurrection is simply NOT mentioned there Sure Brett tried to find it and pointes to some good clues while Gary just repeats his old fake revival mantra with NO Biblical support
it is very simple for Philip Williams to figure this one out – NOAH was taken Enoch was taken JESUS was taken The CHURCH shall be taken…
it is also confusing that as a product of the FL revivals Gary is no pretrib Even Derek Godfrey admits FL revivals were pro trib as he is Why has Gary gone astray we shall find out soon tonight BUT this time his slander and misrepresentation simply will not work against the BIBLICAL evidence God has given us
Anonymous
Troy Day as Matthew 24 tells us, the wicked will be taken as in the days of Noah. The meek will remain to inherit the earth.
Anonymous
Troy Day Why do you degenerate to name calling and being plain nasty when someone has a different take on the meaning of a scriptural passage. I thought this was supposed to be a place for intellectual discussions by grownups Peter Vandever hit the nail on the head when he said you were only supposed to be that way during the week.
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping what name calling? MT 24 tells the truth you dont know And BTW Peter Vandever is no real theologian – just for reference
Anonymous
ABOUT 5yrs ago John Mushenhouse Neil Steven Lawrence our post-trib friend Gary Micheal Epping made the following statement
6.22.2018
The sequence of many events in the End times is tied directly to how one interprets the ‘elect’ as described in MAT 24. So, who are the elect in this very important passage that comes directly from Jesus, as he answers a question from his disciples. “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age? (MAT 24:3)”
having NOT shown any understanding of the SO called sequence Gary interprets the ‘elect’ as described in MAT 24 as the church ???
even after Duane L Burgess has explained time and again WHY it refers to ISRAEL
but even if we accept the church reference the saints in v31 are shown IN HEAVEN – they are simply NOT on earth AND it make sense to consider them resurrected church
which resurrection BTW as established with Brett Dobbs James Pinkerton is not even MENTIONED in mt24 – so for no one can show it there…
Anonymous
no then Ken Van Horn jumped on this train John Mushenhouse
The elect are those who enter the Millennium, aka the Kingdom of Heaven or the Kingdom of God.
According to Matthew 25, when Jesus judges the nations after His return, those who enter into the kingdom, will be those who practiced the Golden Rule even at peril to themselves, during the Great Tribulation.
I am not certain what is meant here
We have 1 fraction with Kyle Williams J.D. King saying we are in the Millennium NOW I quite disagree with this – but kingdom-now Millennium throws OFF virtually ALL trib-related interpretations Brett Dobbs
Anonymous
NOW then Gary Micheal Epping, Author went on on re-stating
It says in Rev 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming etc…
to which Neil Steven Lawrence kindly responded
The word “and“ between the two events indicates he’s adding another idea which is not necessarily in time order from the previous idea. This is especially true if it is to  corroborate with the timeline shown in other Rapture passages like:
Revelation
14:14–16 =Rapture
14:17–20 =2nd  Coming
and Gary kind of skid-away and never responded
He came with another theory stating
Gary Micheal Epping, Author
Endtime Youth says, “The word “elect” is also the same as “chosen” in the New Testament appearing 24 times in 23 verses and most references are made concerning the church…
NOW this is the part where I refer to Duane L Burgess and his wise reference to the Olivet discourse referring … well to the Olive, Israel from which point John Mushenhouse we can open a thread on “elect” VS “chosen” in the NT whereas I am not convinced Gary’s theory will hold – at least NOT in the Greek
Dr. David Breese said, “I’m convinced that the elect here in Matthew 24:31 are not Church saints but the people of Israel who have been scattered throughout the world, perhaps even more specifically the faithful remnant of Jews who have become believers in the Lord during the seven year Tribulation period and are still alive on the face of the earth at His glorious second coming back to the earth immediately after the Tribulation period.”
and here I rest my case…
Anonymous
Troy Day definitely not kingdom now.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs me neither and I am not certain Ken Van Horn is either
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs what is kingdom now? Is that like the prosperity Gospel?
Anonymous
Kyle Williams apparently it’s Troys way of saying  Amillennialism. Or the notion that the millennium kingdom is currently the reigning of Jesus in our hearts. Or something like that.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs oh. I’m a Amillenialist and I believe that Jesus is reigning presently. Scripture teaches this.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs kingdom now is NOT Amillennialism You should know that and Kyle Williams should know it as an ex-pentecostal at least
Anonymous
Troy Day then what is kingdom now
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs well AS stated many ol times before for J.D. King
kingdom now is a basic postmillennial view – NOW I do agree with Kyle Williams that the reformers and Augustine were not post-mil but A-mil HOWEVER kingdom now begins as postmillennial (and still is)
It is the charismatic take of social gospel/liberation theology from Latin America
reproduced by Rashdoony into the US as Christian reconstruction /dominionism into American Presbyterian reformed Calvinism whiuch Dale M. Coulter was reading not long ago
brought into American Charismatics by Wagner and others but mainly him theologically, THOUGH Earl Paul of ATL perhaps first introduced kingdom-now dominionism which Peter Vandever denounces ?
AND today we see major Pentecostal move toward kingdom-now without them realizing the source of it all the very Catholic social gospel/liberation theology was designed by the KGB to destroy latin american catholicism https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/?s=kgb
FUNNY part is that
very catholic social gospel/liberation theology from Latin America
is what now very reformed Kyle Williams believes as the Christian reconstruction /dominionism of American Presbyterian reformed Calvinism John Mushenhouse LIFE is a STRANGE and funny thing 🙂
Anonymous
Troy Day thank you for clarifying that up for me.
Post millennium is borderline heretical in my opinion.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs I agree and so is post-trib as I tell Peter Vandever
Anonymous
Troy Day nah!!! You don’t really mean that.
Anonymous
Troy Day I actually renounced Christian reconstruction and it’s theonomic dominion theology as unbiblical some time ago.
Anonymous
in another thread last year 2022 John Mushenhouse I asked here :
CONTEXT:
Who did JESUS Speak to
in Mt 24?
Steve Losee promptly responded: Jewish believers
to which I had to ask AGAIN -does THIS include the NT CHURCH ? and he answered again – I don’t believe so, but I wouldn’t be combative about it.
I had to agree with thou and NOT too sure where Robert Dickinson Oscar Valdez get their claims here
to which Oscar Valdez answered We are pre-trib any way!!
however this may NOT be true for Robert and my discourse with him I will publish separately …
https://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/posts/5186799968041643/
Anonymous
Robert Dickinson
here is further proof Jesus is speaking to disciples/believers/to the church future tense mt 24: 4 ¶ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Israel doesn’t believe so how could Israel have false christ?
Jesus commands for disciples to not be deceived….
Israel is already deceived
They were then just like they are now
Blessings in Jesus name
Troy day – SIMPLE – the antiChrist deceives namely ISRAEL
Just read REVELATION – it is all there for you…
YES Jesus commands His disciples to not be deceived….
All disciples present @ Mt 24 were Jews
Robert Dickinson – so today Are we not to take heed to the words of Jesus and let no man deceive us?
Troy Day – oh absolutely. Just not in the Mt 24 context you keep on enforcing over the church. We the true church will be long gone
Robert Dickinson – I’m sorry brother Day but the church in America is not ready for the rapture she is to distracted by all the bells and whistles of the entertainment industry and all of the other things with this present world one good example is everyone I know Who claims to be a Christian has health insurance as soon as any one of them have a physical discomfort they run to the doctor and ask them to save their life and then they run to the church and say to the church “oh please pray for me, the doctor said I’ve got this and that and I’ve got to do all these test and I’ve got to take this medication, oh please pray for me I don’t want to die” and these people do everything the medical industry tells them to do because they don’t wanna die so really in action they trust the medical field more than they trust God. God is an afterthought in the process of their healing. just this one thing alone shows that they’re not ready to meet the Lord in the air in a pre-tribulation rapture let’s get real with ourselves who among us isn’t addicted to our cell phones and all of the stuff we busy our minds with that is contrary to the word of God we are not to love the world nor the things that are in the world the lust of the eyes lust of flesh and the pride of life is not of the father but is of the world…nobody I know is ready for a pre-tribulation rapture Jesus Christ told the church in the book of revelation five of which needed to repent all of those same sins in those five churches are here today in our midst if there is a pre-tribulation rapture not very many people are going to make it the way I see it
is God‘s going to use tribulation and persecution to get the true church ready because pretty soon you’re going to have to choose Jesus Christ over your medical insurance your 401(k) your retirement and everything else in this world is going to be stripped out of our hands so that all we have is Jesus and then we will be ready to meet him
I love you man
I’m praying for you
I appreciate you thank you
Blessings in Jesus name
I disagree but still a kind discussion not like our Gary who starts attacking you ad hominem the moment he runs out of actual BIBLICAL ammo Oh well
Anonymous
Troy Day Anyone that disagrees with Troy is self proclaimed as an attacker.
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping why are you attacking me instead of talking theology? If this is all you can do just tell me so we dont waste time here
Anonymous
Troy Day I was just defending myself to your needless statement above, ‘I disagree but still a kind discussion not like our Gary who starts attacking you ad hominem the moment he runs out of actual BIBLICAL ammo Oh well.” I agree we should talk theology and be respectful of other people’s views. You are not always right and neither am I. Ideally, we should all learn from each other, rather than engaging in closed minded arguments.
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping Show us resurrection in MT 24 please !!!
Anonymous
Troy, just because one believes that the Kingdom of God was inaugurated doesn’t mean that one is “Kingdom now.” I could just as easy say that all of you are “Kingdom not.”
Anonymous
not really J.D. King cause I am very much kingdom-YES already but not yet just like every Pentecostal today and in history out there
Anonymous
Matt. 24 is all about ethnic national Israel during her future tribulation, her time of Jacob’s trouble, Daniel’s 70th week.
Remember:
The Church is a mystery (Eph. 3) being revealed beginning at Pentecost.
The Church is unknown in the Old Testament.
The Church is practically unknown in the Gospels; the term, “ekklesia,” only appears twice.
After Christ’s resurrection the disciples were still asking, ““Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” and Jesus said NOTHING about any change in plans.
Romans 9-11 assures us of God’s future plans for ethnic, national Israel.
No allegory, no spiritualizing, no replacement theology.
Anonymous
this by Duane L Burgess is very well said I think John Mushenhouse
Brett Dobbs Peter Vandever actually YES I do mean that
Gary Micheal Epping instead of directing the discussion when proof against your hypothesis is presented, which you are not really qualified to do here JUST shows us resurrection in MT 24
So far you showed v31 which shows the SAINTS gathered in HEAVEN
One can easily see that
saints
gathered
heaven
at this point of history is understood more easily as saints gathering in rapture THAN resurrection as you intend to claim without ANY Biblical proof
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess
Ephesians 3:6-6 (KJV) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
This isn’t a mystery of the church. The church was established before gentiles was included.
The gentiles get to be a part of this.
Hebrews 9:11-15 (KJV) 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
What was originally only for Israel has opened the doors to the gentiles. And now there is no distinction.
Ephesians 2:11-15 (KJV) 11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs you post the SAME verses but NONE Of them shows resurrection in MT24 What are you trying to tell us?
Anonymous
Troy Day One last time, I will respond to your criticism of my position on Mat 24 (Mark 13, and Luke 21). I will list my position point by point below. If you can disprove any point, please respond specifically point by point, using scripture only (no theologies, Greek mumbo jumbo, or comments from your buddies). Thanks.
1. Jesus was speaking only to his followers which were converted jews, not to unconverted old covenant jews that had rejected Jesus. This is indicated in verse 3, “Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately,” There are no OT unconverted Jews present at this discourse. Jesus referred directly to his followers as ‘you.’ If he were speaking to OT Israel or unconverted Jews, he would have used the term ‘jew or jews’ not ‘you.’ The term ‘you’ was used numerous times throughout the chapter in reference to his followers.
2. The followers of Jesus asked questions also presented in verse 3, “what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” This is directly answered in verse 30, “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
3. The term ‘elect’ as used in chapter 24 (verses 22, 24, and 31) refers to the church of Jesus Christ only, not to Israel. The Old Testament applied the term ‘elect’ to the Israelites in as far as they are called to be the chosen people, or people of God, or are faithful to their divine call, as in Deuteronomy and in Isaiah 40-66. However, when Israel rejected Jesus as the Messiah, they were cut off, and the gentiles as the church were grafted in as the elect. Jesus is the vine, and the Father is the vinedresser. ““Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith (Rom 11:19-20).” Since the first coming of Jesus until the Tribulation, Israel is not the elect, but are unbelievers. The Old covenant has no special provision today for their salvation. Salvation comes only through Jesus. ‘Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6).”’ Only In the end times, will the blinders be taken off the jews. Romans 14:23 says, “And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.” However, this does not make Israel again the elect. It just gives the Jews of the Tribulation the opportunity to see clearly and to accept Jesus as their Messiah. Those that do, receive salvation, join with the church as the elect of Jesus Christ. Only through Jesus, can a jew become part of the elect during the tribulation.
4 There is no mention of a pretrib rapture by Jesus anywhere in Mat 24. We are told, “This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven (Acts 1:11).” This says nothing of two returns; one return to rapture the church at the beginning of the tribulation and then a second return for his 2nd coming at the end of the tribulation. Rather it says he will come back like he left. Jesus did not leave twice in his first coming, and will not return twice in the tribulation. He left once and will return only once.
5 The bible tells us that two great resurrections await the inhabitants of the earth: one is the first resurrection, the resurrection of life, the resurrection of the just; the other is the second resurrection, the resurrection of damnation, the resurrection of the unjust. (John 5:28–29). 1 Thes 4:16-17 says, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” This shows that there is only one rapture that occurs after the 1st resurrection. A pretrib rapture would require the 1st resurrection to occur before the tribulation also. If this were true, the second coming of Jesus after the tribulation would require an additional second 1st resurrection of saved saints that died during the Tribulation, as well as a 2nd rapture of saints from the tribulation that are still alive. The bible gives no such provisions for a ‘second’ 1st resurrection or a 2nd rapture.
6 As shown above, there is only one 1st resurrection and one rapture indicated in the bible during the tribulation. It must occur at the end of the Tribulations, so all of God’ saints can meet him on the clouds. Scripture does not indicate any provisions for two 1st resurrections or multiple raptures during the tribulation. Jesus’ second coming will include the 1st resurrection and rapture, and chapter 24 says it is ‘after the tribulation,’ or post trib. Mat 24:29-31 says, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
7 Verse 30 provides the ‘sign’ that the disciples asked for back at the start of the chapter. Jesus has come back on the clouds with his angels. The spirits and souls of all the saints from every age are back in heaven, and their bodies are still in earth. On the earth, there are living saints that were saved during the tribulation. When the last trumpet sounds, the angels gather the spirits and souls of the saints from heaven to be united with their earthly bodies that become immortal, and they joint Jesus on the clouds. Immediately after, the living saints on earth are given immortal bodies and also join Jesus on the clouds.
Anonymous
this WHOLE here theory John Mushenhouse Neil Steven Lawrence rests on one verse
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
this is IF the saints are NT believers which Gary Micheal Epping cannot prove
IF they are NT believers they are gathered from
from one end of heaven to the other.
they are NOT on earth. As already shown to Brett Dobbs and by Duane L Burgess this means the church has to be already raptured and in heaven IN ORDER to be gathered “from one end of heaven to the other”
it is not gathered from earth
from the great tribulation
and gathering NEVER means rising or resurrecting inn Greek
You can try to twist it like Gary to mean resurrection but it just dont mean that
if nothing else our friend Gary just proved very successfully pre-trib rapture
That will be all!
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping will have a very hard time convincing Duane L Burgess or myself or any actual NT scholar that the ELECT Jesus speaks to in Mt 24 were not Jews since the focus of this passage is upon Israel it is not some great mystery that Christ has Israel in mind. It is not called Olivette Discourse because it refers to gentiles and not the Olive Tree – Israel…
William Kelly says, “the evidence unmistakably points to a converted body of Jews in the latter day, not standing in church light and privilege, but having Jewish hopes, and while awaiting the Messiah.” 20 The term “the elect” is most likely used because Christ looks forward to those belonging to the Jewish remnant
Dr. Renald Showers: The question here is this: “Who are the elect that he gathers with a great sound of a trumpet from the four winds of heaven? Are they the Church saints?” I’m convinced that they are not. Let me tell you why. For one thing, if you’re going to say these are Church saints, you’re overlooking some extensive revelation that’s given to us in the Old Testament. What kind of revelation? There are passages in the Old Testament where God calls the whole nation of Israel “His chosen,” literally “His Elect.”
Then there are prophetic promise passages in the Old Testament to the effect that in the end times He would gather together His chosen ones, His elect, particularly the believing remnant of Israel from all corners of the earth, gather them together even from the four winds, gather them together again so that they could go into the Millennial Kingdom with the Messiah whenever He reigns.
Let me read to you a fascinating promise that God delivered to Israel through the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 27:12-13: “O ye children of Israel, and it shall come to pass in that day that the great trumpet shall be blown and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria and the outcasts in the land of Egypt and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount of Jerusalem.” God here was promising toward the end times if you read the whole context that He’s going to re-gather His scattered people of Israel from many different places around the world and He will do that in conjunction with the blowing of the great trumpet. Matthew 24:31: “He shall send his angels with the sound of a great trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.”
In light of those Old Testament parallels, I’m convinced that the elect here in Matthew 24:31 are not Church saints but the people of Israel who have been scattered throughout the world, perhaps even more specifically the faithful remnant of Jews who have become believers in the Lord during the seven year Tribulation period and are still alive on the face of the earth at His glorious second coming back to the earth immediately after the Tribulation period. He will gather together this faithful remnant of Jews from all over the world back to the land of Israel with the sound of a great trumpet.
Now, there’s a second reason I’m convinced this is referring to the elect of Israel and not to the Church elect or Church saints. The whole context of Matthew 24 is a Jewish context, not a Church context. Jesus, as we saw in verse 15, speaking ahead of time to Jews of that future Tribulation period, said, “When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in your holy place.” Well, who had the holy place? The Gentiles? No, the people of Israel did. That’s a reference to a temple of God in Israel, “standing in your holy place, then let them which be in Judea [these are Jews living in their own land of Israel] flee unto the mountains. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house,” etc., and then He says to them that they really ought to be concerned that their flight not be on the sabbath day, verse 20, “but pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day.” He’s talking here about Jews and how this will affect Jews. The whole context is a Jewish context. And so I take it that the elect here are Jewish people whom He will gather together through His holy angels from the four winds, really the idea is from all four directions, under the heavens here on planet Earth back to their homeland of Israel in conjunction with His second coming.
4. When Jesus comes in relation to the tribulation indicates two events
Rapture: Jesus comes to rescue Christians before the hour of trial
Second Coming: Jesus will come after the Tribulation to rule the world.
Dr. David Breese: Well, the Bible teaches that Christ is coming at the end of the age (that’s at the end of the Tribulation) “in power and great glory” and He’s coming with “ten thousands of His saints.” And that will be the great denouement of history whereby He establishes His Kingdom. But the Scripture then teaches that preceding that glorious return of Christ there will be a seven-year period called “The Tribulation,” but it’s about the Tribulation the Scripture says to Christians: “…because you have kept the word of my patience, I will keep you from that hour of trial [temptation, tribulation] that will come upon the whole world to try them that dwell on the earth.” Therefore, we see in Scripture that the Bible says that Christ will come for His saints before the beginning of the Tribulation and take all believing Christians up to be with Him in Heaven. Spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4, “The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel, the trump of God: the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” [1 Thess. 4:16-17].
Paul expands on this a little bit in 1 Corinthians 15 saying to the Corinthians, he says, “Behold, I show you a mystery: we will not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump: the trumpet shall sound, the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.” So we can assure every believer within the sound of this voice that there’s coming a moment when they will be caught up in their physical bodies into the presence of Jesus Christ so as to ever be with the Lord. Perhaps in short we might say that Christ is coming at the end of the Tribulation with His saints but before that He is coming for His saints. We will then be formed into that army that shall return with Him to the conquest of earth. https://jashow.org/articles/who-are-the-elect-referred-to-in-matthew-2431/
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping I have one little edit to make on your post. You said “ On the earth, there are living saints that were saved during the tribulation”.
My correction to you is that there are saints still on the earth that was saved before and during the 70th week, and during the great tribulation. And I believe Troy Day forgot about Mark 13. Mark 13:27-27 (KJV) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Anonymous
Troy Day Looks like I was wasting my time preparing my response in the hopes of a serious discussion. You have not answered any of my points with scriptures like I asked. Just slapped in some old previously prepared posts and references that I asked for you to avoid.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs yeah there are more than 1 little edits needed 🙂 Seems like the camp of postribbers is divided on what the BIBLE says
Anonymous
Troy Day the elect in heaven At Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 are the old T saints and the New Testament saints that consist of Jews and Gentiles who believed in Christ during their lifetime and died.
Jesus comes in the clouds with them with him. Their dead bodies are called up first. And then those who are alive and remain. That is Christians. That is Jews and gentiles that have came to faith at some point in their life. Then they get glorified instantly. And then they get called up at the sound of the trumpet.
There is no distinction between Jew or gentile once their in Christ. The church was established at Pentecost. They were all Jews. Then the gospel went out to the gentiles. And then the gentiles became part of the church.
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping you posted 7 points just 1 hr ago
Within 1hr I disproved 3 of them with the BIBLE – nothing old nothing slapped. Simply responding to you with the BIBLE
I will answer the rest a bit later tonight
There is NO question that the discussion is going on
The question is if you can respond and keep up ?
BTW these 7 very closely resemble the 7 Brett Dobbs posted so I dont really see any new arguments here by you but we will talk about them anyway https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/7-reasons-for-post-trib-rapture/
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs the BIBLE never says
old T saints and the New Testament saints
says elect – Jesus is speaking to the elect Jews
no gentiles are among his disciples at this time
does this mean ONLY Jews will be raptured ?
BTW I am OK with messianic Jews going through the Tribulation
John Mushenhouse Duane L Burgess but I just dont see where the BIBLE says that the church will go though it
Anonymous
Troy Day messianic Jews are part of the church. The 12 disciples plus Paul were messianic Jews.
All who belong to Christ are the elect. Jew and gentile. OT saints included.
Anonymous
Troy Day My post was entire written from my own prospective this morning with no reference to the post you suggest.
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping I dont doubt that I am just saying that it is very similar HOWEVER Brett Dobbs already showed some disagreement with your explanation while both of yall cannot show resurrection in MT24 and this is even BEFORE Neil Steven Lawrence start posting his proofs
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs Sorry, I was referring to just those saints that were saved during the Tribulation, and failed to mention those living saints from before the 7 years. I made a correction adding the following to what you referred to, “as well as all living saints from before the Tribulation.”
Anonymous
Troy Day I left out a phase, “as well as all living saints from before the Tribulation,” which has been added to my original post. Don’t know if you are familiar with it, but your old buddy, Dr. Brown has dealt with the resurrection issue in Mat 24 in his book, “Not Afraid of the Antichrist: Why We Don’t Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.”
Anonymous
Matthew 24 is about ethnic national Israel in the tribulation, Daniel’s 70th week, her time of Jacob’s trouble. It’s not about the Church.
Anonymous
(Note: the Church does NOT refer to all redeemed of every generation)
The Church is a mystery (Eph. 3) being revealed beginning at Pentecost.
The Church is unknown in the OT.
The Church is practically unknown in the Gospels. “Ekklesia” appears only twice in the Gospels.
“Elect” is a term which meaning depends on context.
In Matt. 24 it’s about Israel. God will purge and cleanse that people; two thirds will perish. But those who endure to the end will represent the “all Israel” that will be saved as a nation and enter the literal Millennial Kingdom on earth.
Anonymous
yes Duane L Burgess tell us more about this for Brett Dobbs and Gary Micheal Epping “Elect” is a term which meaning depends on context. In Matt. 24 it’s about Israel.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess
Ephesians 3:2-6 (KJV) 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
The word dispensation actually means administration. It doesn’t mean dispensation like a dispensation of time.
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
What mystery is that?
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Oh okay, the mystery of Messiah. But what does Paul mean?
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
The mystery that the gentiles should be fellowheirs and partakers of the promise in Christ.
Could Paul be referring to the fact that gentiles have become fellowheirs of the new covenant that came to the house of Israel and Judea?
So it’s not a matter of the mystery of the church. Rather the mystery was about the inclusion of gentiles into the church. So what this is actually stating is that the church was born in Israel. It consisted of Jews who believed that Jesus was their messiah. And then included the gentiles into that mix.
Let’s also take a look at Jeremiah 31.
Jeremiah 31:34-34 (KJV) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
This was fulfilled in Christ. Because Israel consisted of two groups. Those who believed in the God of Abraham and those that did not believe in God. They were born into the nation and into the religion whether they believed or not.
And regardless of their faith in God, what mattered was their obedience to Torah. That’s what determined if they had Gods favor or not. Obedience lead to blessings and disobedience lead to cursings. See Deuteronomy 28.
But yet, if they were obeying or disobeying they were still considered to be Gods people. Under that particular covenant.
But then a new covenant was given. And now, those that have received the promise through faith in the messiah know who he is. So under this covenant we will no longer go to our brethren and say know the Lord. Because all who are Gods people under this covenant will know him. So this is a new nation of Gods elect. All of this nation knows who God is.
So the church did not replace Israel.
The new covenant replaced the old covenant. You either accept the new covenant or you don’t.
The elect are those who are under the new covenant.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess Is Israel still the elect when they are cut off from the vine.
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping will JESUS bring ISRAEL to himself @ the last days?
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs you posted a great big copy paste about the ELECT – so who are the ELECT in mt24 when it is all said and done? Are they easy to deceive ppl of little faith whom satan has already fooled to stay left behind after the rapture? At least SO the BIBLE says
Anonymous
Troy Day if was possible to deceive the elect then it would. But it isn’t possible. So we don’t have to worry about what that deception is, unless we’re not part of the elect.
The elect are Gods people. The elect are the ones who have put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ and who have been cleansed by his blood.
Anonymous
Troy Day The “elect” in Matt. 24 are the redeemed who are going through Daniel’s 70th week, and at the end, the elect who are gathered are the saints who survive the Tribulation and enter the literal Millennial Kingdom on earth.
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping Brett Dobbs what of your questions / arguments that you have had on this OP remain unAnswered ?
pls sum um up in a list format – one sentence per point SO we can answer them today with Duane L Burgess John Mushenhouse
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess The “elect” in Matt. 24 are the redeemed who are going through Daniel’s 70th week, and at the end, – I cannot disagree with that
the elect who are gathered are the saints who survive the Tribulation and enter the literal Millennial Kingdom on earth. Gary Micheal Epping Brett Dobbs are hoping to be amongst them I think and that is their birth-right by faith
Anonymous
Troy Day would you not also consider the ones who lost their lives during the 70th week to be the elect as well? Rev: 12:11
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs like Duane L Burgess said – – – MT24 refers to ISRAEL
Anonymous
My question I asked was, ‘Is Israel still the elect when they were cut off from the vine.’ We need to start from there as that is a point from where they certainly were the elect.
Anonymous
Or I might alternately ask, ‘who are the elect right now in 2023?’
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping this was answered this morning – what else?
who are the elect right now in 2023?’ matters very little for MT24 Brett Dobbs Duane L Burgess in MT24 the elect are Israel the Olive Tree – this does not change in 2023 or 4045
Anonymous
Troy Day I do not see a direct answer to the first question. Is it yes or no. The question of who are the elect today is very important as it actually covers the last 2000 years. Need to establish this before going to the future in Mat 24.
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping direct answer – in Mat 24 the elect are ISRAEL Duane L Burgess wrote this no less than 20times already in the group
Anonymous
Troy Day there are two olive trees. If Israel is one of them. Who is the other one?
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs never heard of this referring to NT church brother THE 2 witnesses are all ISRAEL
Anonymous
Troy Day who else could it be?
Anonymous
Troy Day You still are not answering my question and neither did Duane. How hard is it to give a direct answer? Israel was certainly the elect and chosen one in the old testament. After they rejected Jesus, did they remain the elect? Yes or no.
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping well I did answer that directly about 6 times already but you are not asking who are the elect in mt24
the answer to who are the elect in mt24 is ISRAEL
you are asking IS Israel still elect after rejecting God
You should well know Mt24 does not answer this question for you and for this very reason you are merely speculating here
Nevertheless, you Kyle Williams will tell you that our rejection does not forfeit God’s election. At least as far as the BIBLE is concerned ALSO Luther in his foreword of Romans regards this as foundational AND BARTH in his foreword of Romans explains how the LOVE of God forfeits any of our rejections… Just think how many children would have been fatherless IF they stopped being children for rejecting their Fathers – it dont work like that
but this is for your off topic question
As to this OP – in Mt 24 when Jesus says the elect
he refers to ISRAEL because there is no one else to refer to right then
your question now should be HOW the elect could be deceived- thatS the real question you want to ask in regard of this Mt24 OP …
Anonymous
Troy Day Sorry, but I was taught in both the natural sciences and in theology that one should use the investigative method to unbiasedly proceed in a matter like. You never start with a conclusion and work backward. You start at the beginning with a an idea, like who are the elect, and move forward. If we cannot use such logic, I see no reason to go any further, as we are getting nowhere.
Anonymous
Gary Micheal Epping as always you are bringing some humanistic arguments which do not count here.
I am showing you in the BIBLE that Mt24 refers to ISRAEL
I am showing you in the BIBLE there is NO resurrection mentioned in Mt 24 pericopaes of Jesus
You are forcing your own humanistic doctrinal conclusions on Mt24 and I am simply showing you that Mt24 nowhere fits what you believe to be your eschatology proper. It is simply NOT there. You cannot show it and no one else has been able to show it in Mt24 Duane L Burgess Roscoe Barnes III John Mushenhouse Neil Steven Lawrence and several others have showed you the same.
If you had any theological sense as you claim BY now you should counter asking me HOW the elect could be deceived- thatS the real question you want to ask in regard of this Mt24 However, it seems you are not just there yet. Maybe some day soon – What else is there to show?
Anonymous
Troy Day I have NEVER presented any humanistic conclusions. The inductive method of theological investigation is a way of studying and understanding religious beliefs and practices through the observation and analysis of empirical evidence. Nothing humanistic at all about it, as you should well know.
Anonymous
Troy Day We are not getting anywhere. I know you think you are right, but have you ever considered the possibility that you are mistaken? You said above, “in MT24 the elect are Israel the Olive Tree.” If Israel is the Olive tree, it then is able to self sustain and provide its own nutriments and produce its own fruit, whthout any need of God. I think not. Rather, the Olive tree is sustained and fed by the root representing the Father, and the truck signifying Jesus. Israel as a branch was given lIfe and salvation as the elect in the Old Covenant. When they rejected Jesus as the Messiah, unbelieving Israel was cut off, except for a remnant that chose to believe in Jesus. The Lord grafted in the Gentiles that accepted Jesus as Savior.
Anonymous
Troy Day The elect today are the followers of Jesus from both the jewish remnant and the gentiles. For two thousand years, unbelieving Israel has not been the elect as they do not accept the atoning work of Jesus, whose blood washes away the sins of the world. There also has been no OT atoning work by the shedding the blood of bulls and goats to cover over their sins since the destruction of the temple. Yet the blinders will be taken off of unbelieving Israel during the Tribulation. As a nation, they do not become the elect again, but individuals become part of the elect by accepting Jesus as their Messiah. In the parable of the wedding feast (Matthew 22:113), Jesus makes it clear that those who are “called” (invited) but not “chosen” (elected) are unchosen because (1) they refuse to accept the invitation to be saved or because (2) they refuse to comply with the conditions for salvation. “For many are called,” Jesus said, “but few are chosen.” Many are invited, but only those who choose to accept the invitation (and all conditions attached to it) are chosen. Divine election is no different. God chooses those who choose Him. Many are invited, but those finally chosen for participation in the Kingdom are those who accept God’s provisions for salvation. Jesus Christ is the Elect One chosen from the foundation of the world (Isaiah 42:1; 1 Peter 1:20). He is the Way into the Kingdom of God (John 14:6).
Anonymous
Troy Day You have also stated, “I am showing you in the BIBLE there is NO resurrection mentioned in Mt 24 pericopaes of Jesus.” Well, I have shown you there is no pretrib rapture shown in Mt 24. Only one event is presented by Jesus, which must include the resurrection and rapture in verses 29-31.
Anonymous
When Jesus says in Matthew 24, the moon, the sun is going to go out and the stars fall from the heavens, he is quoting from Isaiah 13 and Isaiah 34. There is de-creation language throughout the Old Testament. Every time it occurs in the Old Testament, it always refers to a military destruction of a nation or a city-state, always. In Isaiah 13, an oracle against the king of Babylon, and then you have the same de-creation language, and then Jesus says in Matthew 24, not one stone is going to be left on another. The disciples say when it is going to happen and Jesus quotes Isaiah, so Jesus is not talking about the end of the space-time universe. He simply isn’t. It has nothing whatever to do with that. It has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem, which happened within one generation, just as Jesus said, authenticating him as a prophet.