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Apologetics labeling Latter Rain/Third Wave/New Apostolic Reformation as a cult are not wrong
Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:35 PM]
I don’t agree with all of Wagoner’s ideas, but I don’t think it’s fair to call the NAR America’s Taliban.
‘Third Wave’ doesn’t mean some kind of cult. It was a term Wagoner came up with as a church growth professor to describe evangelical churches that believed in spiritual gifts, but weren’t historically a part of the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements. Charismatics came a little earlier and were a part of the ‘mainline’ denominations initially.
I think I’ve read one of Wagoner’s books, a rather dry book from the 70’s about how your spiritual gifts can help your church grow. I’ve read bits and pieces and seen a few clips, and I’ve encountered other people with apparently similar beliefs who were from this movement. I saw an interview with Wagoner about this movement, too. He wrote an academic book trying to label as a movement churches that had ‘apostles’ as leaders and various other characteristics. Some people talked to him about being the leader of this movement or a leader of this movement later on.
I don’t think the definition of ‘apostle’ is ‘He’s so anointed, he must be an apostle.’ I don’t see their role as primarily being some sort of overarching leadership for the church, serving in a role like archbishops or cardinals in the Roman Catholic Church. We don’t see apostles trying to find existing churches and talking them into letting them be the daddy to the leaders of the church.
We do see Barnabas and Saul referred to as ‘apostles’ after the Spirit to spoke to separate them to the work. They preached the Gospel from city to city. New churches were formed. I believe in the role of apostle, but in the sense that it models the Biblical role. Paul was a father in the gospel to the Corinthians, but he had actually introduced the Gospel of Christ to them. He didn’t just show up after the church had formed and meet some emotional need of theirs to have a daddy.
I don’t know if the so-called ‘spiritual warfare’ is really an integral part of the NAR. That is one area where I am very concerned with what I’ve heard about Wagoner and the bits I’ve read. When I hears some of the so-called ‘spiritual warfare’– yelling at principalities– it reminds me of II Peter 2 and Jude 9. One thing we should learn about the passage is that we should not ‘speak evil of dignitaries.’ Jude illustrates this by giving an example of Michael not rebuking Satan with a harsh allegation before the Lord.
I don’t see any reason in the Bible to think that I can solve any problem by naming a demon or principality after the problem, and then rebuking the demon or principality. For example, if a city has a problem with murder, the Bible doesn’t give us any teaching or example of rebuking all the demons of murder out of that city. If a city has traffic jams, I don’t see any reason to think that I can create a ‘spirit of traffic jams’ to rebuke and kick out with a word just because I named it.
If I guess right and rebuke all the spirits of murder out of a city, and then we don’t evangelize the city and win people to Christ, might not those spirits come back with 7 times the reinforcements? The idea that rebuking all the spirits out of a city is a cure doesn’t have any Biblical backing, and it isn’t a logical idea. Paul did spiritual warfare with spiritual weapons, like the word of God. II Corinthians 10 talks about ‘casting down imaginations and every high thought….’ It is a battle in the realm of ideas that involves skillful use of the word of God.
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John Ruffle [11/30/2015 5:34 AM]
I would call it a sect rather than a cult. Maybe the Wagnerions?
Peter A Vandever [11/30/2015 6:00 AM]
It is dumb and it pushing away millons of brothers and sisters.
John Ruffle [11/30/2015 7:14 AM]
It is simply a renewed Montanism
John Kissinger [11/30/2015 7:16 AM]
The Apostolic Faith (May, 1908) http://cupandcross.com/the-apostolic-faith-may-1908/ #ourCOG #Pentecostal
Brian Fulthorp [11/30/2015 12:44 PM]
he’s self-appointed in his “apostleship.”
John Kissinger [11/30/2015 12:45 PM]
Brian Fulthorp what is the alternative?
Peter A Vandever [11/30/2015 1:28 PM]
Wagner does not claim to be an Apostle. He claims there are apostles today and he is right. TL Lowery makes the same claim but no one is throwing him under the bus.
John Kissinger [11/30/2015 5:45 PM]
‘spiritual warfare’ is a VERY integral part of the NAR – most of their international churches are based on the SLSW + business networks http://youthapologeticstraining.com/strategic-level-spiritual-warfare/
Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:48 PM]
Lots of Gereja Bethel Indonesia churches, which are part of the global COG denomination out of Cleveland, have embraced these ideas of ‘spiritual warfare.’ It irritated me to hear them call talking to the devil and demons ‘prayer’, in the phrase ‘spiritual warfare prayer.’ I saw a lot of this in one of the Bethany churches. I visited another GBI once that had a comic book for children where a child was being bullied. The solution at the end of the book was when the bully was attacking him, he rebuked the spirit in the bully, naming the spirits in the bully after his problems, and the guy stopped attacking him.
John Kissinger [11/30/2015 5:50 PM]
Part?Hardly! GBI has far-reaching autonomy within CoG and is its largest national association. They also have many AG associations
Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:51 PM]
GBI has AG associations? What do you mean?
John Kissinger [11/30/2015 5:52 PM]
On 5 February 1967 Bethel Full Gospel Church signed a contract of unification with Church of God. However, on October 6, 1970, due to disagreements among the leaders of the church, the church was again re-registered under the name Bethel Church of Indonesia. Ministry of Religious Affairs officially registered the church under writ ? 41 of December 9, 1972. So it really depends which exactly GBI churches you’re referring to.
Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:55 PM]
John Kissinger I’m not sure if there are any offshoots that use the name GBI, I think churches have less freedom to do so since the government requires denominations to be registered and has been known to limit the number. They use the name GBI, but COG missionaries and missions funds went there after taking the name GBI.
John Kissinger [11/30/2015 5:56 PM]
No offhots – main stream. I dont remember the name of the guy who split over 1200 congregations, but being more during Charles Page time, may be he can recall what exactly went on then Timothy Carter
Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:58 PM]
There was a split with Bethany maybe 10 years ago, over whether to use the names of their mother churches. GBI had a lot of large denominations within the larger denomination, the way it was set up, and a lot of smaller congregations that were just under the denomination.
John Kissinger [11/30/2015 6:00 PM]
you may be right but this is more of Charles time to remember
John Kissinger [12/02/2015 9:22 AM]
Apostolic Relevance or a New Apostolic Reformation? http://cupandcross.com/strange-fire-not-in-a-global-pentecostal-context-of-ministry/ #ourCOG
John Kissinger [12/08/2015 9:31 AM]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2521723/posts
Casius Leonidas
Seems like Bill Johnson (Bethel) and the NAR are moving straight into heretical teaching.
The locals in Redding already view them as a cult…
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Its most likely a calvinist-cessationist named this group a cult… now while believers like this adopt some strange teachings, i dont call them a cult unless it should come from the A/G; COG, Cleveland Tn.; ICFSG, and the PCOG. During the 1950’s faith healers will dealt with and expelled from the A/G. When the Pentecostals call certain teachings heretical, then i will concur with them.
Philip Williams
What’s this nonsense. C Peter Wagner passed away several years ago.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams why so – article is 2015 and seems solid https://churchwatchcentral.com/2015/10/16/when-peter-is-the-wolf-wagner-protests-that-the-nar-is-not-a-cult-or-americas-taliban/
Philip Williams
Troy Day written by a worthless coward whose destiny is the lake of fire.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams sounds like a smack drive by comment Why attack the author instead of addressing the issue?
Philip Williams
Troy Day the nonsense uninformed attack is coming from your own post. Someone has created a nonexistent movement to excuse their own shortcomings.
Philip Williams
The attack is your post that creates an imaginary conspiracy to excuse their worthless cowardliness.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams actually I am not the author or even concerned with it as the author clearly cited Source: Charles Peter Wagner, The New Apostolic Reformation Is Not a Cult, Charisma News, http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/31851-the-new-apostolic-reformation-is-not-a-cult, Published and edited 5:00PM, 24/08/2011. (Accessed 09/09/2015.)
I am more concern with how kingdom now theology has affected Pentecostalism with its political shamanism and how many churches are still falling into its basically Catholic trap
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams come to look into it I am not even in the discussion which is greatly surprising me since I see how much Link has written under it Joe Absher will be proud of me not giving 3 strikes to baptiocostal comments 🙂
Joe Absher
I am grateful even if I’m testy at times. My apologies.
Philip Williams
Troy Day they also try to smear Michael Brown with this. I think he has been the focus of these attacks.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams I dont know about MB I signed me off when he started to flip the pancake on Trump – a man’s got to be known for his word What about this post though – you never said what the problem is? The facts are facts not smearing BTW Brown been flipping on NAR too
Philip Williams
Troy Day Peter’s article sums up most of the Issues. I disagree with many of Peter’s ideas, but knew him to be s good man and better than most of the so-called Apostles and Prophets in this movement.
But if your problem is Kingdom Now, maybe your problem is with me. Or with Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Varnel Watson
my problem is with the KGB Catholic made false teaching of Kingdom Now http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/?s=kgb
Michael D Wayne
This really seems like a Titus 3:9 situation. I think Romans 4:4 is appropriate as a response. I have no idea why this is even on here? Then there is the whole sawdust and plank situation… but again, definitely a Titus 3:9 situation.
Varnel Watson
I would really really really abstain from jumping to conclusions I dont know who runs the site on the Link but seems to be true about HillSong C3 etc Why not true about NAR Philip Williams you said you had problem with this and that You called names and sidetracked from OP – BUT when all said and done WHAT is wrong with the article? Seems like straight comment on the charisma mag publication Should it be left with no comment?
Philip Williams
Judge Hillsong by what Hillsong does. Judge Charisma by what Steve Strange does. Judge C Peter Wagner by what Peter did. But first and above all judge yourself and those you follow.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams sURE – we dont judge the entity BUT the theology For this we ARE called to do for we shall judge angels for their WORKS but you are yet to confirm your vented frustration with actual disagreement from the article What made you so mad?
Varnel Watson
WHAT can we take from this article?
Someone brought it to the group several years back and here it pops up again b/c ppl feel it should be discussed
1. NAR leaders elevate existential experiences above the Word of God and claim many “supernatural” experiences are from God – is a TRUE statement no matter if said by Wagner, Jo Mattera or Strang
2. the 2011 NPR article was well known, many other were made in local medias by wagner and also by the 700club owner Pat R. and many of its members as well as NAR network members – the move toward kingdom now was already present and the call to take over the 7 mntns especially the political one was there
3. the NAR move toward kingdom now political influence was called out by many politicians in the 2016 elections At least 4-5 of them sided with NAR Hillsong Bethel C3 iHOP and of course S. Baptists and in a rightists political campaign It didnt matter WHO was elected as long as post-mil reconstructionism was played in
4. that the original Wagner article was taken down by Strang is a great recognition by itself though we can still find it on archive org and post it here for more discussion Just to show Philip Williams the facts without name calling or personal slander – the truth is out there and we are reaping the results in church today
5. Wagner writes, The New Apostolic Reformation Is Not a Cult in NPR – a non cult should not have to state that it is a non cult
6. it was NOT Surprising the New Apostolic Reformation has become a topic of discussion in the political media by 2011 Wagners try to bring the public political eye on the US church started in 2000 He saw it working in S America thinking this is great – lets do it here
7. social gospel NAR ihop Kansas kingdom now postmil is all liberation theology that has damaged the church through history since Augustine and Byzantium
8. finally – it is a catholic approach to theology designed by KGB as open export of religious revolution WHAT ELSE? We’ve seen already Ulf Ekkman turn Catholic and Copleand and others turn to the Pope…
http://www.piratechristian.com/fightingforthefaith/2015/9/c-peter-wagners-dominionism
Varnel Watson
oh yeah and M Brown jumped on the bang wagon to make a buck with his politicostalism On One of his videos that most makes NO sense not to call it otherwise he appears dumb struck asking what is nAR there is not NAR I am not NAR who is nar our enemies call it NAR – blah blah political escapism and just afraid of the antiChrist
Philip Williams
Troy Day OK, let us address specific issues.
1. Which NAR leaders elevate experiences above the word of God? Bill Johnson might, but how is he an NAR leader? Please name the NAR leaders.
2. What is wrong with Kingdom Now? Didn’t that begin at Pentecost?
3. I know about the Rick Perry/Mike Bickle thing. These aren’t necessarily post-mil even if Dominionists. Their error is not staying separate from the world.
4. We definitely need liberation theology. Last I heard from Jesus, liberation theology is truth.
5. Stop demonizing and have a discussion. Stop confusing rebuking with anger or with demonizing.
Varnel Watson
In Wagner’s NAR world of Seven Mountains Mandates (and Pixie Dust), it doesn’t matter if someone is immoral and selfish-as long as they’re successful. After making excuses for Trump’s lack of moral integrity, he says this:
“Let me point out that influence is related to spirituality in the Religion Mountain, but this is not true in any of the other six mountains that are the molders of culture. The chief producer of influence in the six non-Religion mountains is not spirituality but success. The most successful people are the most influential.”
So, in the original Seven Mountain Mandate, Christians were supposed to take over the “seven mountains” of Religion, Business, Arts, Media, Education, Family and Government. This idea is NOT from the Bible-it’s something made up in the minds of Bill Bright and Loren Cunningham (and some other guys who probably want to take credit for it, too). This is, very generally speaking, another version of Dominionism; it’s the idea that Christians are supposed to somehow Take Over The World
Varnel Watson
still unclear ? Philip Williams
Philip Williams
Troy Day I have never recommended 7 mountains.
I do think that the Church should be influencing the world by shining its light. Have you even a little one?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams well JUST Pointing out that the critical point in the theological stereotype presented here is more than needed and not easily rejected as you tried to do at first
Philip Williams
Troy Day the only thing I rejected is the silly idea that the NAR actually exists as some great coalition of an antiChrist church. It was never anything but an idea in Wagner’s head which he wrote and talked about.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams it actually exists – it takes membership fees; has quarterly meetings I know several who were made apostles by Wagner’s Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elder SO for MBrown to come out with his silly video and try to wiggle it like there aint no NAR was just one portion of laughter Have you seen his video with it?
Philip Williams
Troy Day I have seen plenty of silly things coming from them. It’s entirely entertainment, as the case of most everything in today’s Pentecostals.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams asking about MB video plainly denying NAR than come around later flip the pancake saying it exists
Philip Williams
yawn
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams WHY? just because you say you are friends dont make it perfect The guy is a flip flip and it has been since he rode the FL wave years ago and still is https://pulpitandpen.org/2018/04/24/dr-michael-brown-full-damage-control-mode-nar-debate/
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams and now for the flip flop https://churchwatchcentral.com/2017/03/20/dr-michael-brown-finally-admits-the-nar-exists/
Philip Williams
Troy Day yawn
Varnel Watson
yeah – its a slam dunk 🙂 Dr. Michael Brown is trying very hard to make it appear like the New Apostolic Reformation barely even exists. He’s recently completed an entire program devoted to distancing himself from the movement he doesn’t think is real. In the process of describing the thing he doesn’t believe exists, he ends up explaining some of the core beliefs of the movement itself… you know, the movement that doesn’t really exist.
Varnel Watson
For many years, very few people knew of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) by name, though they certainly were impacted by its teachings and practices. It’s been encouraging to see more people become aware of this movement’s existence and even to see the rise of a counter-movement challenging NAR.
But in response to this counter-movement, some voices have risen defending the leaders of this movement. Some of those voices have gone so far as to deny that the New Apostolic Reformation even exists or, if it does exist, that it’s as large and harmful as its critics, myself included, say it is. One of the strongest voices, in this regard, has been Michael Brown, author and radio host.
During a recent podcast interview, Alisa Childers asked for my response to Brown’s claims. You can read what I said below, starting at 29 minutes into the interview. The bottom line is that Brown hasn’t clearly defined NAR. Nor does he seem to understand the essential thing that makes the NAR, NAR: i.e., the belief in the present-day governing offices of apostle and prophet. Because he doesn’t clearly define NAR, Brown errs in his conclusion that it doesn’t exist, at least not to any significant degree. It seems that Brown just doesn’t know what he ought to be looking for. Angel Ruiz
Philip Williams
yawn…!
Varnel Watson
love the TITLE 🙂 https://churchwatchcentral.com/2017/03/17/dr-michael-brown-runs-away-from-stay-at-home-mom/
Varnel Watson
as well as he should 🙂 Philip Williams
Philip Williams
And I am about ready to run away from you.
Varnel Watson
I know but you yourself got into this one and aint no getting out now 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRPoZUg3Iz0
Varnel Watson
all you have to do is go to the website of Bethel Church in Redding, California – Bill Johnson’s church – and read their statement that their church embraces the biblical government of apostles and prophets. Or read Bill Johnson’s writings, including the article “Apostolic Teams — A Group of People Who Carry the Family Mission.”
As far as Ché Ahn goes, he’s chancellor of Wagner University, which was founded by C. Peter Wagner. It’s described itself as a school to raise up leaders for the New Apostolic Reformation. And you can go on their website right now and see that they offer courses on the New Apostolic Reformation and training people to be apostles. Ché Ahn also governs a very large apostolic network of over 25,000 churches and ministries that have come under his apostolic authority, and people can just go to his website, Harvest International Ministry, and look at that network.
Mike Bickle, who Michael Brown has also defended, through the years he [Bickle] has taught that the offices of apostle and prophet are [for] today, that they’re being restored for the end time, and that they have an essential role in the unfolding of God’s end-time plans for Earth. He’s talked about these offices in his very popular book Growing in the Prophetic. He, himself, has claimed that Jesus told him, during a visit he took to heaven, that if he was faithful he’d be among a group of 35 imminent apostles, governing apostles to rise up in the last days.
Philip Williams
Troy Day Bill Johnson with truly false theology runs entertainer show number one.
Varnel Watson
read ON – its SO funny – https://churchwatchcentral.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/21.png
Varnel Watson
here’s the TRUTH Philip Williams NOW pls remember that you yourself tried to say above NAR is nothing and dont exist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRPoZUg3Iz0
Davidking Manelli
Wow
Davidking Manelli
We are pray
Varnel Watson
In Dr. Brown’s radio show he described some of the specific beliefs of the NAR and how he doesn’t agree with them. While it is very good that Dr. Brown has explained why he doesn’t believe in or agree with certain NAR teachings, like “Dominionism” and the NAR’s idea of authoritative contemporary Apostles, he knows (and promotes) plenty of NAR leaders who hold to these very views. Looking at all the ways that Dr. Michael Brown is closely associated with the NAR, one would have to believe in a lot of incredible coincidences to think that Brown has nothing to do with the NAR.
Philip Williams
Troy Day which NAR leaders does MB promote?
Link Hudson
The NAR leadets are Charismatics. Do you think that might gave something to do with it?
Philip Williams
Link Hudson NAR have New Order of Latter Rain roots (Paul Cain, etc). Because they were working in the market place, the New Order of Latter Rain became teachers of the Charismatics, that very name referencing the gifts which the Latter Rain proclaimed will be restored to the church. Thus, it is the New Order of Latter Rain behind both Charismatic and NAR.
Link Hudson
Philip Williams did Paul Cain go to a Latter Rain church or go to their conventions, or just teach their theology. I am unsure of a strong link between Paul Cain and NAR. Calling KC Metro NAR seems like too much of a stretch to me. Paul Cain was influential in the Vineyard and prophetic movements.
Philip Williams
Link Hudson
Paul Cain got his start with William Bradham. He was very connected to Mike Bickle until his character was discovered. Then he and Rick Joyner gave Paul Cain the boot. For sure, C Peter Wagner was also closely associated with all of them.
Davidking Manelli
Yes amen brother
Varnel Watson
Charles Page what was the guy and church that did early dominionism in ATL? Was it Polk Jr?
Link Hudson
Paulk Jr. Taught kingdom now or so they say.
Philip Williams
I’m all for Kingdom now!
Ain’t y’all?
Varnel Watson
because you are influenced by political catholicism and liberation theology designed by the KGB – bet your Pentecostal grandma wasnt kingdom now
Philip Williams
Troy Day why are you thinking that nonsense about me?
Charles Page
Yes Earl Paulk,, Jr and son Don and now gson Donnie
Varnel Watson
thats the one just spelled different
Charles Page
It’s inclusive theology
Philip Williams
Charles Page Kingdom Now for me is Jesus Now.
Charles Page
is it inclusive of those in alternative sexual lifestyles? Is your jesus for everyone?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Kingdom Now for you is Jesus only
Varnel Watson
I’d saY its a very NON inclusive theology OR not so inclusive theology But truth is HillSong was influences along with Bethel ihop and many others flipped the charismatic pancake on Pentecostalism and went kingdom now http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-hillsong-connection-a-sad-day-for-ag-denomination/
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse when you asked Why have so many cult members and cessationalists taken over this room. I thought this was a haven for classical Pentecostal theology and not every wave of doctrine. I grow tired of the attention seekers and those spewing their ungodly heresies. Philip Williams responded Don’t be deceived! Bethel is a cult, plain and simple, built around claims of the supernatural and, like the LDS, claims Jesus as it’s first practitioner. The Mormons also had tongues and still has prophets. They built in Salt Lake City. Bethel builds in Redding.
As in the case of the LDS and other cults, Bethel uses traditional Christian language. But like the other cults, it often means something very different than their traditional meanings. Bethel is not about Jesus. It’s about them. Peter Vandever Steve Witt is the Senior Pastor of Bethel Cleveland.
Bill Johnson has said that Steve gave him the most profound prophetic word he has received.
We are truly blessed to have Steve coming!
Steve has had Bill Johnson,Danny Silk, Kris Vallotton, and many other revivalists at Bethel Cleveland. They are also connected with Bethel Church in Redding.
Steve Witt is a former business trainer and long time church planter. Steve started Bethel Cleveland in 1996 and travels extensively exporting skills and lessons learned locally.
Just recently I was reminded where Steve said
Pacifism is a belief that cannot hold under present conditions. Granted, society should lean toward war only when it can guarantee a preferred peaceful future existence. Christians can be confused by this, believing that countries should never go to war.
:::end quote
Pacifism is indeed the belief of virtually ALL early Pentecostals that was changed around 1919 mainly by the AG – for obvious war-related nationalistic reasoning.
The truth of the matter is war is NOT missiological and anyone claiming that is just a fool. Jesus never intended war as mission. We have the worst experience of mission with the crusados and the conquests. Faith should not be FORCED – – – or it turns into jihad.
But these are the ideas of the 7 mntns and NAR – conquer the world with the Gospel. Wage WAR to evil in high places of the flesh and in the flesh. Conquest missions do NOT work and never have. Jesus the Revolutionary is not a BIBLICAL thing – the social gospel NAR and liberation theology will never end up in the utopia of Christian Reconstruction
BUT wait there is more – In 2012, Judy Franklin and Ellyn Davis published a book titled “The Physics of Heaven.” Judy Franklin is the administrative assistant of Bill Johnson (senior pastor at Bethel Church). The preface was written by Kris Vallotton, senior associate leader at Bethel (Bill Johnson’s right-hand man). The book begins with praises written by Banning Liebscher (director of Jesus Culture at Bethel) and Steve Witt (senior leader of Bethel Church Cleveland), among others.
Bill Johnson wrote two chapters, and Beni Johnson, his wife, one. Other chapters were directly contributed by people who have ties with Bethel or were summaries of interviews of them.
This book thus clearly matches Bethel Church’s doctrine.
Excerpts of the authors’ introductions:
Ellyn has had a desire to bridge the gap between Christianity and the discoveries of quantum physics as well as discover God truths hidden in quantum mysticism and the New Age #hello
Anonymous
Thank you