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Ricky Grimsley | PentecostalTheology.com
Romans 8:29 KJVS
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Why doesnt this scripture imply that since there is a group that he foreknows that there is a group he does not foreknow. It says that he predestines those he foreknows to be conformed to the image of his son and we know that not everyone is conformed to the image so dies that mean he does not foreknow them or that they are predestines to not be conformed since god foreknows everyone right?
Varnel Watson
Henry Volk Barth says God forknew us all
Henry Volk
Got a quote?
Varnel Watson
Always! You?
Ricky Grimsley
Barth is dead. What do you think.
Varnel Watson
God does not need us but as the electing God, Jesus elects all of humanity in himself. http://www.theopedia.com/theology-of-karl-barth
Ricky Grimsley
So like universalism?
Varnel Watson
Well, Barth would deny that but sure sounds like it … or even open theism
Varnel Watson
A good question by Ricky Grimsley Answer: Because the text does speak of predestinate for salvation but predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son David Rollings Peter Christian Dan Irving David Lewayne Porter
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
Agreed.
Peter Christian
Troy is your comment correct or is there a typo?
Varnel Watson
Peter You were right. Comment was predestined for a typo. Or maybe it was not now that I changed in ways no one knew about and new never before unknown knowldge was unvailed 🙂 Ricky Grimsley – – – Answer: Because the text speak not of predestinate for salvation but predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son
Peter Christian
To this I respond: Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1. In context therefor Romans 8:29 was referring to predestination unto salvation.
David Lewayne Porter
You can’t separate the two, if you read it in context.
But even in His plan and desire for our well-being He gave us freewill.
Salvation was not predestined.
His desire for us to be was.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Peter speaks authoritatively as one who touched and handled Jesus as well as experienced and received (undeserved or forced) forgiveness from his freewill choice.
Peter Christian
David Lewayne Porter that was the 2nd epistle. Which was a follow up on the 1st epistle. And yet to whom was the 1st epistle addressed to? See who it was addressed to and read it all the way through in context and you will see that the offer for God not willing that any should perish is actually talking about only the elects. God not wanting any of His elects to perish. For since Peter opens the 1st epistle with ‘To the Elects’. Context context context.
David Lewayne Porter
My brother Peter
I have.
Your lack of understanding in that point shows you do not understand the nature of God in regards to salvation.
You put forth a view that limits those for whom He died and who is able to call upon Him for salvation.
Need I post those passages (in context) for you?
Peter Christian
Don’t need David. Just handle this text from Peter first before we go any further pls.
David Lewayne Porter
?
Is it possible for Jesus to die in vain?
If He died for an individual who can’t be saved then He died in vain.
Did He die for every (one) or just some?
I have handled Peter’s text.
I love the first letter at the closing of chapter 2.
Varnel Watson
Peter Christian I think the biggest weakness in the Calvinist argument on Rom. 8:29 is that there is nothing in the context which suggests that this verse is an ordo salutis. It just isn’t there. It just says that all of these categories are true of believers, and Arminians agree with that.
Peter Christian
Well since there are two of you maybe you will both be brave enough to come on my blog show and debate live.
David Lewayne Porter
Interesting thought, very interesting.
Peter Christian
Is that a yes David Lewayne Porter?
David Lewayne Porter
I will have to determine if it is worth it.
Are you wanting truth or to try and prove a (twisted) point?
Peter Christian
I am wanting to debate for the truth under the limits of the scriptures only.
David Lewayne Porter
The Truth
Under the limits of scriptures (only)..
If that is true, then I need you to quailify and clarify the screenshot attached.
You said Non-elect
And elect
Would call upon the Lord
But only the chosen would be saved.
That is not what the verse says Romans 10:13.
I believe the issue is your definition of call in Romans 10:13.
I watched your video of when you were struggling with “if God was selective in whom He dealt with and how”.
I appreciate your honesty in admitting that you do not have full(enough) knowledge of an all powerful God to fully explain it. I appreciate you admitting that (our) human understanding is not capable of totally comprehending Him at this time.
If you want to discuss that (or this thread) in a forum where we can handle it, or those that are more mature and wise will comprehend what is the purpose and desired outcome, then yes.
But, I am not going to be part of a side show to have the gospel and it’s principles misunderstood (in a public – semipublic setting where just anyone can watch *believers* twist and tear each other).
If I figure(d) your “invitation” in the wrong light, please explain,
“[Well]
Since there are two of you maybe you will both
[Be brave enough]
To come on my blog show and [debate] live.
I might caution you to examine your motives.
Let me use a called and chosen verse here…
Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Peter Christian
Matthew 7:21-23
Oddly enough I was just meditating over this verse as I prepare it for my next live cast on FB 🙂
Peter Christian
I appreciate your seriousness here. Most of the other forums are filled with trolls and so with a grain of salt I ask you to take my remark. Yet my offer to have a live debate on my blog radio program was all for good intention. Nothing suspicious about it.
Peter Christian
But I have debated over texting in forums over the years and I have grown weary of it. Goes nowhere and takes up so much time. So if you are up to an honest live debate before God, I will honour on my end, a fair gentlemen debate. No yelling no screaming, no name calling.
Varnel Watson
It will be quite sufficient to give and answer to the fallacious Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 8:29 as follows:
A simple exegesis of the passage shows that Paul’s doctrine in Rom 8:29-30 admittedly does not match up with perceived human experience. For this reason, people, even Christians, who have not studied the issue of divine election and predestination often assume that God’s sovereign choice is based on his foreknowledge of human decision. That is, God knew beforehand who would choose salvation and elected them because of this knowledge. James Arminius describes the doctrine this way:
“God, from eternity, knew that it was possible that man, assisted by divine grace, should either receive or reject Christ; also, that God has decreed, either to permit a man to reject Christ, or to cooperate with him that he may accept Christ by faith, then, that God foreknows that one will apprehend Christ by faith, and that another will reject him by unbelief.”
Peter Christian
Well since you tagged me in this thread it is on you. If you guys want to debate this I will engage but live. Not gonna break my fingers here.
Varnel Watson
The debate has been done time and time again. IMO Arminius resolves it once and for ever very much defeating the calvinistic argument in it. The tagging was about Barth’s interpretation which is also very interesting and not general calvinistic predestination in Rom. 8-9 which’s been resolved
Peter Christian
What you interpret as resolved is your interpretation. I do not agree with your interpretation.
But lets see your strength in your understanding of scripture rather than what someone else said.
What say you both?
Varnel Watson
My interpretation is stated above. Feel free to actually read it
Charles Page
Can’t be clearer that calling (regeneration) justification and glorification are predestined works apart from any means from the descendants of Adam.
Sanctification is not included in this list and is not predetermined but is according to the will of man.
Calling, justification and glorification is monergistic and sanctification is synergistic.
Arminians and Calvinist both claim that sanctification is included in this list. Just rendering the literal interpretation of Rom 8:30 without modifications.
Ricky Grimsley
What is “being conformed to the image” if not and ultimate salvation though? I would also ask who are those he foreknew? Does that imply there are the those he does not foreknow? Did God really love Pharaoh the same way he loves us?
Charles Page
“being conformed to the image of his son” is the working of calling, justification and glorification
asking about those God does not foreknow is a redundancy. fallacy of logic. It is called omnipotent paradox; can God create a rock bigger than he can carry?
Yes, I believe God loves all his election and that includes Pharoah
Ricky Grimsley
The ” rock” argument is always valid because it shows the real failure of theologians to stick with the bible and not let platonic philosophy cloud the actual description of the God of the bible.
David Lewayne Porter
?
Is it possible for Jesus to die in vain?
If He died for an individual who can’t be saved then He died in vain.
Did He die for every (one) or just some?
Ricky Grimsley
I dont see how jesus could die for all if you believe that he knew everyone that would or would not be saved. It doesnt even make it possible for them. Nothing does if God already knows from before the world began.
David Lewayne Porter
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Is there a limitation in (the whole world)?
Varnel Watson
Ricky Grimsley Are you now saying Jesus did NOT die for everyone?
Ricky Grimsley
Did Jesus die for the sins of Pharaoh? Did he die for the sins of the people he knew would never be converted? If you believe in God having Exhaustive Foreknowledge….how could he die for everyone? How can God make it possible for me to be saved if he knows I wont be from before the world began?
David Lewayne Porter
Ricky Grimsley
Because then we are responsible for our eternal destination, not God.
It comes down to God did all He had to for us and now it is up to us through our freewill.
Did God die for the sins of Pharoah? (yes).
Did God die for the sons of the people He knew would never be converted? (Yes)
Ricky – how could He being a just God not die for everyone? .
How can God make it possible for me to be saved if he knows that I won’t from before the world began?
Because at the judgement(s) when the book of life, and the other books are opened (book of our – every idle word, book of remembrance – those who fear the Lord and think upon His Name, our actions, etc) it is we who sentence ourselves. We are our accuser in that day.
In that day it will be manifested of the God-Head
Romans 3:3-6
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? – please read all of Romans 3.
Revelation of John 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There is why.
And He did.
Varnel Watson
Ricky Grimsley Jesus died for the sins of the whole world in order to be FAIR. But in order for Him to be JUST only the once who accept His sacrifice will go to heaven. It’s so simple even a child in Sunday School understands it – let’s repeat and remember: FAIR and JUST! #GODSattributes
Charles Page
Appearance of logic
Ricky Grimsley
So he died for Pharaoh’s sins?
David Lewayne Porter
Ricky Grimsley
Ricky Grimsley
We are responsible for our eternal destination, not God.
It comes down to God did all He had to for us and now it is up to us through our freewill.
Did God die for the sins of Pharoah? (yes).
Did God die for the sons of the people He knew would never be converted? (Yes)
Ricky – how could He being a just God not die for everyone? .
How can God make it possible for me to be saved if he knows that I won’t from before the world began?
Because at the judgement(s) when the book of life, and the other books are opened (book of our – every idle word, book of remembrance – those who fear the Lord and think upon His Name, our actions, etc) it is we who sentence ourselves. We are our accuser in that day.
In that day it will be manifested of the God-Head
Romans 3:3-6
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? – please read all of Romans 3.
Revelation of John 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There is why.
And He did.
Ricky Grimsley
And i believe all that you said there except for believing that God knew every person he was dying for.
David Lewayne Porter
I know, that is why I said it.
But that is exactly what I believe and that is what I believe the Bible bears out from cover to cover.
I don’t need a God that is surprised by daily events in people’s lives.
Ricky Grimsley
I dont believe that God is daily surprised. He knows the thoughts and intents of our hearts. Perfectly. I just dont believe he knew me before the world began.
David Lewayne Porter
I (personally) consider that being double minded.
A God that is not daily surprised is more than able to know us before He started to implement His plan.
Ricky Grimsley
Sounds like predestination?
David Lewayne Porter
Nope, freewill
Michael Howard
i can answer that, but my hand is hurting and I can’t type
Varnel Watson
Some people who discover they can’t live the perfect life simply change their definition of perfection. There’s a better way. God’s grace!
Levi Chavis
Romans 9:8-23
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory
I hope this helps answer your question. God Bless