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IS THERE a distinction between Israel and the Church
and if so what is it?
Ricky Grimsley [01/30/2016 9:06 AM]
I think romans 11 explains that we are not israel. We are all different branches with the same “root”
John Kissinger [01/30/2016 9:11 AM]
Stan Wayne [01/30/2016 9:48 AM]
Basic Grammatical Historical Interpretation of scripture yields an Israel that was the people of God who had unconditional physical land, Kingdom and monarch promises.
When the majority rejected their King the people of God became the body of Christ composed of Jews and Gentiles.
However unbelieving Israel with land, kingdom and future king and future expectation of coming to belief in the Land persists.
Israel has land – the Church has no land.
Stan Wayne [01/30/2016 10:00 AM]
“Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”
Romans 11:25-29 ESV
Ricky Grimsley [01/30/2016 10:01 AM]
I personally believe now that the opposite is true. Blindness is coming on the gentiles that israel can be saved.
Stan Wayne [01/30/2016 10:13 AM]
“And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.””
Genesis 17:7-8 ESV
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson on of the most mis understood and mis interpreted approaches toward Mat 24 + Lk 21
Philip Williams
No distinction in the eyes of Jesus.
Varnel Watson
oh come on now 🙂 other sheep I have as well
Philip Williams
Troy Day the shepherd of Israel’s flock are all Israel.
Varnel Watson
they eventually may become that BUT when Jesus spoke they were still sheep of another flock he had
Philip Williams
Troy Day Yes, those like Cornelius. Remember what the angel told him.
Link Hudson
God is still provoking disobedient Israel to jealousy and they are still beloved for the sake of the patriarchs.
Philip Williams
Romans 11 mentions Gentiles coming in to Israel. The Covenant was never based on biology and never will. Even the Old Covenant required circumcision and many Gentiles entered into Israel.
Varnel Watson
Romans also argues of ALL Israel saved in one day – something Augustine + Luther took pretty seriously 🙂
Philip Williams
Troy Day no. Not ‘and then, all Israel will be saved.’ That’s not what it says, but rather, ‘in this way all Israel will be saved.’ That is, by coming in to Israel. No other reading even makes sense.
Varnel Watson
about 99% translations say
and in this way all Israel will be saved.
https://biblehub.com/romans/11-26.htm
Philip Williams
Troy Day that’s right, but not ‘and then(!) all Israel will be saved.’ This points to the fact that bringing in the full number of Gentiles into Israel is the way that all Israel will be saved.
Varnel Watson
not if you believe they will be already taken in the rapture
Link Hudson
Where does Romans 11 call believing Gentiles grafted in Israel?
Varnel Watson
The natural branches (Israel) were broken off, and the wild branches (Gentiles) were grafted in (verse 17).
Philip Williams
Link Hudson ‘until the full number of Gentiles come in’ [to Israel] is the way that all Israel will be saved.
Link Hudson
But it does not follow that they necessarily become Israel. ..’that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy’ Paul writes. James interprets Amos to mean God is taking from rthe Gentiles a people for Himself. If they were to become Israelites how would that be an argument against requiring Gentile circumcision?
Philip Williams
Link Hudson oh my! Does anyone actually read Romans?
The Old Covenant though Moses ends with the death of Christ and the New Covenant also begins there. It’s the end of the Old Covenant that also ends the requirement for circumcision in the flesh to become part of Israel. Remember the New Covenant was promised to Israel, not to the Gentiles.
Yes, as James mentions in his reference to Amos, Gentiles are grated into Israel. Actually Gentiles were being grafted into Israel from the time of Abraham by means of outward circumcision. The biological, racist, or cultural understanding of Israel is a modern one and completely contrary to the identity of Israel found in the Bible, which then meant one circumcised in the flesh.
The first Christians were certainly Jews. What do you suppose happened to their descendants? When did their children cease to be Jews in the sight of God. Christianity began as a Jewish sect and Christians have always been the Israel of God.
Link Hudson
Philip Williams James said this to Paul in Acts 21, and Paul went with the suggestion and paid the expenses of some men who were going to the temple to dispell the rumors:
“You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. . 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided [e]that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”
Acts 15 does not say Gentile Christians become Jews. James said, “Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.” (Acts 15:14.)
James and the Jerusalem Jewish Chrsitians were in favor of circumcising Jewish babies, but sided with Paul against Gentile circumcision… because of what they percieved the Spirit to be saying. Paul warned against circumcising Gentiles, opposing Judaizer activities in Galatians, but he circumcised Timothy who was the son of a Jewish mother.
Link Hudson
Philip Williams There is also the cultural background. Jews may have been discussing the issue of the concept of a righteous Gentile. The Talmud records that a generation or so later, that Jewish scholars concluded that Gentiles could be righteous as sons of Noah, if they kept certain requirements that were similar to what the apostles wrote in Acts 15, no fornication, no idolatry, not eating meat off of live animals (compare to things strangled and from blood) and a few other requirements.
Biblically, the covenant with Noah could be the basis for some of what we see in Acts 15. God gave Noah even creeping things to eat, so the Gentiles, as descendants of Noah, but not Israel, could eat them. But Noah was not allowed to eat blood. The Gentiles are to abstain from things strangled– animals killed without proper letting of the life’s blood of the animal, and from blood. Leviticus has a long list of sexual behaviors for which Gentiles were expelled from the land. And God created all men and made a covenant with our ancestor Noah, so we should worship him and not idols.
Philip Williams
Link Hudson oh believe me, I well know the Noahide teachings. Many years ago, I exposed the infamous James Tabor as a secret Noahide, pretending to be a secular Professor.
Philip Williams
Link Hudson Paul on circumcision:
“No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.”
Romans 2:29
“Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.”
1 Corinthians 7:19
“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.”
Galatians 5:6
“For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—”
Philippians 3:3
“In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ,”
Colossians 2:11
And so on. None that of Paul’s actions that you mention in any way contradict these teachings. But rather,
“To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.”
1 Corinthians 9:20
Paul, the Jew, expressly declares himself not under the Law. Likewise, Peter ate with the Gentiles, which as his vision shows, meant eating things the Law declared as unclean. Mark says that Jesus declares all foods clean (under the New Covenant). Just how much does this issue need to be declared through the Scriptures, that the Law ended with the death of Christ!
But if the Law doesn’t end there, why don’t the Jews still not stone their disobedient children and the Sabbath breakers as the Law requires?
Link Hudson
Philip Williams your last question is a moot point. The Old Testament is full of stories aboutIsrael not keeping the Law.
Philip Williams
Link Hudson think, do you, that God requires today’s Jews to stone adulterers and rebellious children?
Varnel Watson
ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 11:26 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
καὶ οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται, καθὼς γέγραπται Ἥξει ἐκ Σιὼν ὁ Ῥυόμενος, ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας ἀπὸ Ἰακώβ. http://probible.net/romans-11-26/
Tyler Lee Price
The church is the new Israel, therefore, I don’t believe we have any obligation to Israel.
Varnel Watson
IF church is the new Israel would Israel be the old Israel? Wouldnt that be precisely dual covenant? Philip Williams
Philip Williams
Troy Day Stop this nonsense.
Dual Covenant claims that today’s Jews don’t need Jesus.
Philip Williams
The New Israel receives the promises that God spoke through his prophets in the Old Israel.
RichardAnna Boyce
In Rom 9:30-10:21, Paul switches from vindicating God’s sovereign use of Israel in the past for His purposes (9:1-29) to His present setting aside of Israel due to her rejection of His righteousness. The term righteousness occurs eleven times in this section (9:30 [3 x], 31; 10:3 [3 x], 4-6,10). Accepting this righteousness resulting in justification would only be the beginning, not the end, for Israel to be delivered from God’s wrath. Full deliverance from temporal wrath comes only through obedience (10:9-21).
Chapter 11 shows that even if Gentiles experience God’s mercy in the present, this is not to the exclusion of Israel’s permanent future deliverance. Thus, God’s wisdom, by extending mercy to all, vindicates Him because His original promises of the gospel to Israel (1:2; 10:15-16; 11:28) will be fulfilled literally in the future.
Romans 11:25-27
11:30-32. Paul now explains how God’s electing love for Israel in vv 28-29 is further expressed in vv 30-32. As Gentiles (indicated by you; cf. v 12) were once disobedient to God (perhaps thinking of 1:18-32), they have now obtained mercy because of Jewish disobedience (perhaps thinking of 2:1-3:8). Yet because God showed mercy to undeserving Gentiles (you) after the Jews rejected Christ, undeserving Israel (they) will likewise receive mercy and believe in Christ at some point in the future (cf. vv 23,26-27). Israel’s disobedience is preparing them to be ready and willing to receive mercy when God again turns to them in the Tribulation period that completes Daniel’s 70 th week prophecy (9:24-27; cf. Rom 9:26). Hence, at the end God levels the playing field, having committed Jew and Gentiles (i.e., them all) to disobedience so that mercy can come equally to all.
(from The Grace New Testament Commentary, Copyright © 2010 by Grace Evangelical Society. All rights reserved.)
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams RichardAnna Boyce If I am reading yall correctly you are proposing 2 completely different positions Which one is Biblical?