FEATURED, theology September 17, 2019

Is water baptism mandatory for salvation?

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Marc Jackson	Randal W Deese you probably believe one needs to be baptized (even as a baby) to even become part of the church
Randal W Deese	Absolutely! I used to believe what you believed but it is too weak hermeneutically…wink
Marc Jackson	I dont know a single Pentecostal that would believe that I tend to think Melvin Shomo is right on this one
Melvin Shomo	LOL
Scott Phillips	The answer to the question is pretty obvious from scripture. However add a little Traditional Questions and DOubt to erase the truth of scripture… and the answer quickly becomes, “Baptism is not important.”
Randal W Deese	It is a modern novel doctrine to teach that Baptism is unnecessary.
Marc Jackson	David Chambers I think your example with the thief on the cross is solid. More over it was Jesus, not a theologian or a priest, who told the thief he will be saved – no need of water baptism whatsoever Furthermore Randal W Deese is simply wrong in his statement that all theologians demanded water baptism for the first 15 centuries. This is simply not true Not even if you only examine organized religion in the first 15c
Randal W Deese	The Thief on the CrossThree scriptural reasons why this is an invalid argumentSome will ask, â€œWell, what about the thief on the cross? He wasnâ€™t baptized and Jesus very clearly told him he would be in paradise. Doesnâ€™t that prove baptism in not essential for salvation?â€This is a perfectly valid question and makes sense at first glance. However, the problem arises from not having a clear understanding of what baptism represents and what the scriptures tell us about it. According to Romans 6:3-6, baptism represents being unified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. The problem with the thief on the cross when Jesus told him he would be with Him in paradise, is that Jesus was still alive. Christ had not yet died or been buried, so He had certainly not risen yet either. Baptism into Christ was not put into practice until Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 after Christ had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven.I) The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant. II) But besides that, when Christ was on this earth, He had the authority to forgive people of their sins. Look at Mark 2:9-12:Which is easier, to tell the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven;’ or to say, ‘Arise, and take up your bed, and walk? ‘But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” — he said to the paralytic — “I tell you, arise, take up your mat, and go to your house.” He arose, and immediately took up the mat, and went out in front of them all; so that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”When Christ was on the cross, He was still on this earth. And He had the authority to forgive sins. III) An additional point to consider: To even position the argument about the thief on the cross one must be able to prove he was never baptized. But consider the following verses:Mark 1:4-5John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Then ALL the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.So who can really say the thief was never baptized before he was crucified? According to Mark 1:4-5 there is a plausible chance he was!Oh well
Marc Jackson	except that none of this is what Jesus says in the Bible to the thief now is it?
Randal W Deese	The point is hermeneutically valid – that is all that matters. You cannot prove otherwise. Simple
Randal W Deese	Now a history lesson…What did early Christian Leaders believed about Water Baptism before AD 400Water Baptism Essential to Salvation 110-165 AD Martyr “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all… And for this we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe.” (Justin Martyr, “First Apology,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 183)110-165 AD Martyr The “Constitutions of the Holy Apostles” also refer to John 3:5. There, the one who refuses to be baptized is to be condemned as an unbeliever, partially on the basis of what Jesus told Nicodemus…. “He that, out of contempt, will not be baptized, shall be condemned as an unbeliever, and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says: ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again: ‘He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned.'” (Justin Martyr “Constitutions of the Holy Apostles,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 456-457.) 110-165AD Martyr “there is no other way [to obtain God’s promises] than this-to become acquainted with Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins, and for the remainder, to live sinless lives.” (Justin Martyr, Trypho chap. 44)110-165AD Martyr “Those who are convinced that what we teach is true and who desire to live accordingly are instructed to fast and to pray to God for the remission of all their past sins. We also pray and fast with them. Then we bring them to a place where there is water, and they are regenerated in the same manner in which we ourselves were regenerated. They then receive the washing with water in the name of God (the Father and Lord of the universe) and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. For Christ said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven”‘ [John 3:5]. (Justin First Apology chant 61)
Randal W Deese	115-188 THEOPHILUS “On the fifth day the living creatures which proceed from the waters were produced, through which also is revealed the manifold wisdom of God in these things; for who could count their multitude and various kinds? Moreover, the things proceeding from the waters were blessed by God, that this also might be a sign of men’s being destined to receive repentance and remission of sins, through the water and laver of regeneration, as many as come to the truth, and are born again, and receive blessing from God.” (Theophilus, “To Autolycus,”, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, pg. 101)115AD Second Clement “For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey His commandments. . . . [W]ith what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works?’ (Second Clement 6:7)120-205 AD IRENAEUS “As we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are thus spiritually regenerated as newborn infants, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'” Irenaeus, “Fragments From Lost Writings”, no. 34, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 574)120-205 AD IRENAEUS “This class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith.” (Against Heresies, bk. 1, chap. 21, sec. 1, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 345.)140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “After the world had been hereupon set in order through its elements, when inhabitants were given it, ‘the waters’ were the first to receive the precept ‘to bring forth living creatures.’ Water was the first to produce that which had life, that it might be no wonder in baptism if waters know how to give life.” (Tertullian, “On Baptism,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, page 670)140-230 AD Tertullian “Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins” (Baptism 7:2).140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “But they roll back an objection from that apostle himself, in that he said, ‘For Christ sent me not to baptize;’ as if by this argument baptism were done away! For if so, why did he baptize Gaius, and Crispus, and the house of Stephanas? However, even if Christ had not sent him to baptize, yet He had given other apostles the precept to baptize. But these words were written to the Corinthians in regard of the circumstances of that particular time; seeing that schisms and dissensions were agitated among them, while one attributes everything to Paul, another to Apollos. For which reason the ‘peacemaking’ apostle, for fear he should seem to claim all gifts for himself, says that he had been sent ‘not to baptize, but to preach.’ For preaching is the prior thing, baptizing the posterior. Therefore the preaching came first: but I think baptizing withal was lawful to him to whom preaching was.” (Tertullian, “On Baptism,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 676)140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life! A treatise on this matter will not be superfluous; instructing not only such as are just becoming formed in the faith… The consequence is, that a viper of the Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. Which is quite in accordance with nature; for vipers and asps and serpents themselves generally do affect arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our ikhthus, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water; so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water!” (On Baptism, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 669.)140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “How mighty is the grace of water, in the sight of God and His Christ, for the confirmation of baptism! Never is Christ without water: if, that is, He is Himself baptized in water; inaugurates in water the first rudimentary displays of his power, when invited to the wedding; invites the thirsty, when He makes a discourse, to Himself being living water; approves, when teaching concerning love, among works of charity, the cup of water offered to a poor child; recruits His strength at a well; walks over the water; willingly crosses the sea; ministers water to his disciples. Onward even to the passion does the witness of baptism last: while He is being surrendered to the cross, water intervenes; witness Pilate’s hands: when He is wounded, forth from His side bursts water; witness the soldier’s lance!… True and stable faith is baptized with water, unto salvation; pretended and weak faith is baptized with fire, unto judgment.” (Tertullian, “On Baptism,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 673, 674)140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “The prescript is laid down that ‘without baptism, salvation is attainable by none’ chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'” (On Baptism, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 674-675)140-230 AD TERTULLIAN “What more disgraceful than immodesties? If, moreover, even from a ‘brother’ who ‘walketh idly’ he warns the Thessalonians to withdraw themselves, how much more withal from a fornicator! For these are the deliberate judgments of Christ, ‘loving the Church,’ who ‘hath delivered Himself up for her, that He may sanctify her (purifying her utterly by the laver of water) in the word, that He may present the Church to Himself glorious, not having stain or wrinkle’ – of course after the laver – ‘but that she may be holy and without reproach; thereafter, to wit, being ‘without wrinkle’ as a virgin, ‘without stain’ (of fornication) as a spouse, ‘without disgrace’ (of vileness), as having been ‘utterly purified.'” (Tertullian, “On Modesty,” 217 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 4, pg. 94)140-230 AD TERTULLIAN This is in agreement to the context of the words of John the Baptist when he prophesied of the baptism of fire. Referring to Jesus, John said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (comment on Matthew 3:11-12).
Randal W Deese	150-200 AD CLEMENT “Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal… This work is variously called grace, and illumination, and perfection, and washing. Washing, by which we cleanse away our sins; grace, by which the penalties accruing to transgressions are remitted; and illumination, by which that holy light of salvation is beheld, that is, by which we see God clearly.” (Clement of Alexandria, “The Instructor,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, pg. 215)150-200 AD CLEMENT “But when the time began to draw near that what was wanting in the Mosaic institutions should be supplied, as we have said, and that the Prophet should appear, of whom he had foretold that He should warn them by the mercy of God to cease from sacrificing; lest haply they might suppose that on the cessation of sacrifice there was no remission of sins for them He instituted baptism by water amongst them, in which they might be absolved from all their sins on the invocation of His name.” (Clement, “Recognitions of Clement,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 88)150-200 AD CLEMENT “Now God has ordered every one who worships Him to be sealed by baptism; but if you refuse, and obey your own will rather than God’s, you are doubtless contrary and hostile to His will. But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute towards the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which hath pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because, when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so at length you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus hath the true prophet testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily I say to you, That unless a man is born again of water, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore make haste; for there is in these waters a certain power of mercy which was borne upon them at the beginning, and acknowledges those who are baptized under the name of the threefold sacrament, and rescues them from future punishments, presenting as a gift to God the souls that are consecrated by baptism. Betake yourselves therefore to these waters, for they alone can quench the violence of the future fire; and he who delays to approach to them, it is evident that the idol of unbelief remains in him, and by it he is prevented from hastening to the waters which confer salvation.” (Clement, “Recognitions of Clement,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 155)150-200 AD Clement “This work is variously called grace, and illumination, and perfection, and washing. Washing, by which we cleanse away our sins. Grace, by which the penalties of our sins are canceled. And illumination, by which that holy light of salvation is beheld, that is, by which we see God clearly.” (Clement Instructor bk. 1, chap. 6)150-200 AD CLEMENT “We are washed from all our sins, and are no longer entangled in evil. This is the one grace of illumination, that our characters are not the same as before our washing… In the same way, therefore, we also, repenting of our sins, renouncing our iniquities, purified by baptism, speed back to the eternal light, children to the Father.” (Clement of Alexandria, “The Instructor,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, pg. 216-217.)150-200 AD CLEMENT “When he had given them these and such like precepts, he made proclamation to the people, saying: ‘Since I have resolved to stay three months with you, if any one desires it, let him be baptized; that, stripped of his former evils, he may for the future, in consequence of his own conduct, become heir of heavenly blessings, as a reward for his good actions.” (Clement, “Recognitions of Clement,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 132)181 AD Theophilus of Antioch “Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God” (To Autolycus 12:16). 190 AD Irenaeus of Lyons “`And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: `Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'” (Fragment 34).
Randal W Deese	200 AD CYPRIAN “But what a thing it is, to assert and contend that they who are not born in the Church can be the sons of God! For the blessed apostle sets forth and proves that baptism is that wherein the old man dies and the new man is born, saying, ‘He saved us by the washing of regeneration.’ But if regeneration is in the washing, that is, in baptism, how can heresy, which is not the spouse of Christ, generate sons to God by Christ?” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 388)200 AD Cyprian of Carthage “While I was lying in darkness . . . I thought it indeed difficult and hard to believe . . . that divine mercy was promised for my salvation, so that anyone might be born again and quickened unto a new life by the laver of the saving water, he might put off what he had been before, and, although the structure of the body remained, he might change himself in soul and mind. . . . But afterwards, when the stain of my past life had been washed away by means of the water of rebirth, a light from above poured itself upon my chastened and now pure heart; afterwards, through the Spirit which is breathed from heaven, a second birth made of me a new man” (To Donatus 3)200 AD HERMAS “And I said, ‘I heard, sir, some teachers maintain that there is no other repentance than that which takes place, when we descended into the water and received remission of our former sin.’ He said to me, ‘That was sound doctrine which you heard; for that is really the case.'” (Hermas, “The Shepherd,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, pg. 22)200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Aurelius of Utica said: Since the apostle says that we are not to communicate with other people’s sins, what else does he do but communicate with other people’s sins, who holds communion with heretics without the Church’s baptism? And therefore I judge that heretics must be baptized, that they may receive forgiveness of their sins; and thus communion may be had with them.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 569.)200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Caecilius of Bilta said: I know only one baptism in the Church, and none out of the Church. This one will be here, where there is the true hope and the certain faith. For thus it is written: ‘One faith, one hope, one baptism;’ not among heretics, where there is no hope, and the faith is false, where all things are carried on by lying.” (The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian, September, 258 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 565)200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Marcellus of Zama said: Since sins are not remitted saved in the baptism of the Church, he who does not baptize a heretic holds communion with a sinner.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,”, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 570)200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Nicomedes of Segermae said: My opinion is this, that heretics coming to the Church should be baptized, for the reason that among sinners without they can obtain no remission of sins. (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 567) 200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Novatus of Thamugada said: Although we know that all the Scriptures give witness concerning the saving baptism, still we ought to declare our faith, that heretics and schismatics who come to the Church, and appear to have been falsely baptized, ought to be baptized in the everlasting fountain; and therefore, according to the testimony of the Scriptures, and according to the decree of our colleagues, men of most holy memory, that all schismatics and heretics who are converted to the Church must be baptized; and moreover, that those who appeared to have been ordained must be received among lay people. (The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian, September, 258 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 565)200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Victor of Gor said: Since sins are not remitted save in the baptism of the Church, he who admits a heretic to communion without baptism does two things against reason: he does not cleanse the heretics, and he befouls the Christians.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 568)200-258 AD CARTHAGE “Victoricus of Thabraca said: If heretics are allowed to baptize and to give remission of sins, wherefore do we brand them with infamy and call them heretics?” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 568)200-258 AD CARTHAGE Dativus of Badis said: We, as far as in us lies, do not hold communion with heretics, unless they have been baptized in the Church, and have received remission of their sins.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 567)200-258 AD CARTHAGE Felix of Bagai said: As, when the blind leads the blind, they fall together into the ditch; so, when the heretic baptizes a heretic, they fall together into death. And therefore a heretic must be baptized and made alive, lest we who are alive should hold communion with the dead. (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 567)200-258 AD CARTHAGE Nemesianus of Thubunae said: That the baptism which heretics and schismatics bestow is not the true one, is everywhere declared in the Holy Scriptures, since their very leading men are false Christs and false prophets, as the Lord says by Solomon: ‘He who trusteth in that which is false. he feedeth the winds…’ And in the Gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with His divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ This is the Spirit which from the beginning was borne over the waters; for neither can the Spirit operate without the water, nor the water without the Spirit.” (“The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 566.)
Marc Jackson	Absolutely not. We can pick the Greek of course but you aint got no point here. Furthermore, either way Jesus said it in Luke 23 43 in Aramaic most certainly does not teach a mandatory water baptism. You have done well to come down on your claim from 1500 to 400 AD but still there are plenty of examples of churches who did not practice water baptism as mandatory – neither for adults nor for children. To put it simply – you can copy past all you want but the Bible is against your claim on this one
Randal W Deese	200-258 AD CYPRIAN “But as often as water is named alone in the Holy Scriptures, baptism is referred to, as we see intimated in Isaiah: ‘Remember not,’ says he, ‘the former things, and consider not the things of old. Behold, I will do a new thing, which shall now spring forth; and ye shall know it. I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the dry place, to give drink to my elected people, my people whom I have purchased, that they might show forth my praise.’ There God foretold by the prophet, that among the nations, in places which previously had been dry, rivers should afterwards flow plenteously, and should provide water for the elected people of God, that is, for those who were made sons of God by the generation of baptism…. Christ… cries and says, ‘If any man thirst, let him come and drink. He that believeth on me, as the Scripture saith, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.’ And that it might be more evident that the Lord is speaking there, not of the cup, but of baptism, the Scripture adds, saying, ‘But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive.’ For by baptism the Holy Spirit is received… As also, in another place, the Lord speaks to the Samaritan woman, saying, ‘Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again; but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him, shall not thirst for ever.’ By which is also signified the very baptism of saving water, which indeed is once received, and is not again repeated..” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 360)200-258 AD CYPRIAN “But if the baptism of heretics can have the regeneration of the second birth, those who are baptized among them must be counted not heretics, but children of God. For the second birth, which occurs in baptism, begets sons of God.” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 393) 200-258 AD CYPRIAN “But what a thing it is, to assert and contend that they who are not born in the Church can be the sons of God! For the blessed apostle sets forth and proves that baptism is that wherein the old man dies and the new man is born, saying, ‘He saved us by the washing of regeneration.’ But if regeneration is in the washing, that is, in baptism, how can heresy, which is not the spouse of Christ, generate sons to God by Christ? For it is the Church alone which, conjoined and united with Christ, spiritually bears sons; as the same apostle again says, ‘Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify it, cleansing it with the washing of water.’ If, then, she is the beloved and spouse who alone is sanctified by Christ, and alone is cleansed by His washing, it is manifest that heresy, which is not the spouse of Christ, nor can be cleansed nor sanctified by His washing, cannot bear sons to God.” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 388) 200-258 AD CYPRIAN “For he who has been sanctified, his sins being put away in baptism, and has been spiritually re-formed into a new man, has become fitted for receiving the Holy Spirit; since the apostle says, ‘As many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.’ (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 387-388)200-258 AD CYPRIAN “Moreover, Peter himself… has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved, except by the one only baptism of one Church. ‘In the ark,’ says he, ‘of Noah, few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water, as also baptism shall in like manner save you.’ In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! For as, in that baptism of the world in which its ancient iniquity was purged away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water, so neither can he appear to be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark. (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 389)
Randal W Deese	200-258 AD CYPRIAN “Peter… said, ‘In the ark of Noah, few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water; the like figure whereunto even baptism shall save you;’ proving and attesting that the one ark of Noah was a type of the one Church. If, then, in that baptism of the world thus expiated and purified, he who was not in the ark of Noah could be saved by water, he who is not in the Church to which alone baptism is granted, can also now be quickened [made alive] by baptism. Moreover, too, the Apostle Paul, more openly and clearly still manifesting this same thing, writes to the Ephesians, and says, ‘Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water.'” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 398)200-258 AD CYPRIAN “Since, therefore, from the preaching and testimony of Christ Himself, the Father who sent must be first known, then afterwards Christ, who was sent, and there cannot be a hope of salvation except by knowing the two together; how, when God the Father is not known, nay, is even blasphemed, can they who among the heretics are said to be baptized in the name of Christ, be judged to have obtained the remission of sins?” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 383.)200-258 AD CYPRIAN “What then, say they, will become of those who, coming from the heretics, have been received without the baptism of the Church?… But they… should be baptized with the baptism of the Church, that they may obtain remission of sins, lest by the presumption of others they remain in their old error, and die without the completion of grace.” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 395) 200-258 AD CYPRIAN “Wherefore baptism cannot be common to us and to heretics, to whom neither God the Father, nor Christ the Son, nor the Holy Ghost, nor the faith, nor the Church itself, is common. And therefore it behooves those to be baptized who come from heresy to the Church, that so they who are prepared, in the lawful, and true, and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God, may be born of both sacraments, because it is written, ‘Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 384) 200-258 AD CYPRIAN “Widely different is the faith with Marcion, and, moreover, with the other heretics; nay, with them there is nothing but perfidy, and blasphemy, and contention, which is hostile to holiness and truth. How then can one who is baptized among them seem to have obtained remission of sins, and the grace of the divine mercy, by his faith, when he has not the truth of the faith itself? For if, as some suppose, one could receive anything abroad out of the Church according to his faith, certainly he has received what he believed; but if he believes what is false, he could not receive what is true; but rather he has received things adulterous and profane, according to what he believed. This matter of profane and adulterous baptism Jeremiah the prophet plainly rebukes, saying, ‘Why do they who afflict me prevail? My wound is hard; whence shall I be healed ? While it has indeed become unto me as deceitful water which has no faithfulness.’ The Holy Spirit makes mention by the prophet of deceitful water which has no faithfulness. What is this deceitful and faithless water? Certainly that which falsely assumes the resemblance of baptism, and frustrates the grace of faith by a shadowy pretense. But if, according to a perverted faith, one could be baptized without, and obtain remission of sins, according to the same faith he could also attain the Holy Spirit; and there is no need that hands should be laid on him when he comes, that he might obtain the Holy Ghost, and be sealed. Either he could obtain both privileges without by his faith, or he who has been without has received neither. But it is manifest where and by whom remission of sins can be given; to wit, that which is given in baptism.” (Cyprian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 381)
Randal W Deese	200-258 AD Cyprian, said of his own baptism, “Considering my character at the time, I used to regard it as a difficult matter that a man should be able to be born again…. Or that a man who had been revived to a new life in the bath of saving water could be able to put off what he had formerly been-that he could be changed in heart and soul, while retaining his physical body…. For as I myself was held in bonds by the innumerable errors of my previous life, from which I did not believe that I could by possibility be delivered, so I was disposed to acquiesce in my clinging vices, and because I despaired of better things, I used to indulge my sins as if they were actually a part of me, inherent in me. But later, by the help of the water of new birth, the stain of former years was washed away, and a light from above-serene and pure was infused into my reconciled heart. Then through the Spirit breathed from heaven, a second birth restored me to a new man.” (Cyprian To Donatus sec. 3, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 276)203 AD Tertullian “Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism–which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes–by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1).203 AD Tertullian “[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, `Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life'” (Baptism 12:1).215 AD Hippolytus “And the bishop shall lay his hand upon them [the newly baptized], invoking and saying: ‘O Lord God, who did count these worthy of deserving the forgiveness of sins by the laver of regeneration, make them worthy to be filled with your Holy Spirit and send upon them thy grace [in confirmation], that they may serve you according to your will” (The Apostolic Tradition 22:1).217 AD Hippolytus “The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and He, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism” (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8).221 AD The Recognitions of Clement “But you will perhaps say, `What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: `Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'” (Recognitions of Clement 6:9).240 AD Testimonies Concerning the Jews “That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God [John 3:5] . . . ‘ Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be baptized and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works” (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25-26).248 AD Origen “The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. For the apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which are washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9).
Randal W Deese	250 AD Ignatius of Antioch “Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armor; your faith, your helmet; your love, your spear; your patient endurance, your panoply” (Letter to Polycarp 6).253 AD Cyprian: “Moreover, Peter himself, showing and vindicating the unity, has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved, except by the one only baptism of one Church. “In the ark,” says he, “of Noah, few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water, as also baptism shall in like manner save you.” In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! For as, in that baptism of the world in which its ancient iniquity was purged away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water, so neither can he appear to be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark.” (Cyprian, Epistle 73:11)253 AD Cyprian of Carthage “[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, `Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'” (Letters 71[72]:1).256 AD Council of Carthage VII “And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, `Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ” (VII Carthage).256 AD Cyprian of Carthage “[I]t behooves those to be baptized … so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written `Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'” (72[73]:21).260-315 AD METHODIUS “For thus will it be most certainly agreed that the Church is formed out of His bones and flesh; and it was for this cause that the Word, leaving His Father in heaven, came down to be ‘joined to His wife;’ and slept in the trance of His passion, and willingly suffered death for her, that He might present the Church to Himself glorious and blameless, having cleansed her by the laver.” (Methodius, “The Banquet of the Ten Virgins,” 260 to 312 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 6, pg. 319)340 AD Aphraahat the Persian Sage “From baptism we receive the Spirit of Christ. At that same moment in which the priests invoke the Spirit, heaven opens, and he descends and rests upon the waters, and those who are baptized are clothed in him. The Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of rebirth, and then they receive the Holy Spirit. . . . [I]n the second birth, that through baptism, they receive the Holy Spirit” (Treatises 6:14:4).
Randal W Deese	345 AD CYRIL “For all things whatsoever thou hast done shall be forgiven thee, whether it be fornication, or adultery, or any other such form of licentiousness. What can be greater sin than to crucify Christ? Yet even of this Baptism can purify. For so spake Peter to the three thousand who came to him, to those who had crucified the Lord, when they asked him, saying, ‘Men and brethren, what shall we do?’ For the wound is great. Thou hast made us think of our fall, O Peter, by saying, ‘Ye killed the Prince of Life.’ What salve is there for so great a wound? What cleansing for such foulness? What is the salvation for such perdition? ‘Repent,’ saith he, ‘and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.’ O unspeakable lovingkindness of God! They have no hope of being saved, and yet they are thought worthy of the Holy Ghost. Thou seest the power of Baptism!” (Cyril of Jerusalem, 348AD, “On Baptism,” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 16)345 AD CYRIL “The Lord… has granted repentance at Baptism, in order that we may cast off the chief – nay rather the whole burden of our sins, and having received the seal by the Holy Ghost, may be made heirs of eternal life.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, “On Baptism,” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 16) 345 AD CYRIL “When going down, therefore, into the water, think not of the bare element, but look for salvation by the power of the Holy Ghost: for without both thou canst not possibly be made perfect. It is not I that say this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter: for He saith, ‘Except a man be born anew’ (and he adds the words) ‘of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’ Neither doth he that is baptized with water, but not found worthy of the Spirit, receive the grace in perfection. Nor if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but receive not the seal by water, shall he enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, “Catechetical Lectures,” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 15.)350 AD Cyril of Jerusalem “If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive baptism, for the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism [Mark 10:38]. . . . Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and you come up made alive in righteousness” (Catechetical Lectures 3:10, 12). 350 AD Cyril of Jerusalem “Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, `Unless a man be born again’ and he adds the words `of water and of the Spirit’ `he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it” (Catechetical Lectures 3:4).360 AD Athanasius “[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened” (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33]).
Randal W Deese	375 AD Basil the Great “This then is what it means to be `born again of water and Spirit’: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3, Col. 2:12-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there” (The Holy Spirit, 15:35).379 AD Basil the Great “For prisoners, baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, the death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a royal protector, a gift of adoption” (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects 13:5). 381 AD Ambrose of Milan “Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and-the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God” (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75-76]).381 AD Ambrose of Milan “The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism. . . . `Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God'” (Abraham 2:11:79-84).381 AD Ambrose of Milan “The Lord was baptized, not to be cleansed himself but to cleanse the waters, so that those waters, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of baptism. Whoever comes, therefore, to the washing of Christ lays aside his sins” (Commentary on Luke 2:83). 381 AD Ambrose of Milan “You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in baptism are one: water, blood, and the Spirit (1 John 5:8): And if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water, for `unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God'” (The Mysteries 4:20).381 AD Council of Constantinople I “We believe . . . in one baptism for the remission of sins” (Nicene Creed).382 AD Gregory of Nyssa “[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the first-born of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit” (Against Eunomius 2:8).
Randal W Deese	387 AD John Chrysostom “[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of Heaven except he be regenerate through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink His blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed Head” (The Priesthood 3:5-6).388 AD Gregory Nazianz “Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths” (Oration on Holy Baptism 7-8).390 AD CRYSOSTOM “In the Law, he that hath sin is punished; here, he that hath sins cometh and is baptized and is made righteous, and being made righteous, he liveth, being delivered from the death of sin… For in Baptism the sins are buried, the former things are blotted out, the man is made alive, the entire grace written upon his heart as it were a table.” (John Crysostom, “Homilies on Second Corinthians,” 390 AD, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 12, pg. 307)400 AD The Apostolic Constitutions “Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3, Col. 2:12-13] . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, `Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, `He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned'” [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15).419 AD Augustine “Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ–it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, `If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, `Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven'” [Matt. 10:32] (The City of God 13:7).75 AD The Letter of Barnabas “Regarding [baptism], we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Jer. 22:13; Is. 16:1Letter of Barnabas 11:1)80 AD Hermas “‘I have heard, sir,’ said I, ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is'” (The Shepherd 4:3:1)CONSTITUTIONS “Let him, therefore, who is to be taught the truth in regard to piety be instructed before his baptism in the knowledge of the unbegotten God, in the understanding of His only begotten son, in the assured acknowledgment of the Holy Ghost…. Adore God, the Lord of the whole world, and thank Him for His creation, for His sending Christ His only begotten Son, that He might save man by blotting out his transgressions, and that He might remit ungodliness and sins, and might ‘purify him from all filthiness of flesh and spirit,’ and sanctify man according to the good pleasure of His kindness, that He might inspire him with the knowledge of His will, and enlighten the eyes of his heart to consider of His wonderful works, and make known to him the judgments of righteousness, that so he might hate every way of iniquity, and walk in the way of truth, that he might be thought worthy of the laver of regeneration, to the adoption of sons, which is in Christ, that ‘being planted together in the likeness of the death of Christ,’ in hopes of a glorious communication, he may be mortified to sin, and may live to God, as to his mind, and word, and deed, and may be numbered together in the book of the living. ” (Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 475-476)FIRMILIAN “But indeed you are worse than all heretics. For when many, as soon as their error is known, come over to you from them that they may receive the true light of the Church, you assist the errors of those who come, and, obscuring the light of ecclesiastical truth, you heap up the darkness of the heretical night; and although they confess that they are in sins, and have no grace, and therefore come to the Church, you take away from them remission of sins, which is given in baptism, by saying that they are already baptized and have obtained the grace of the Church outside the Church, and you do not perceive that their souls will be required at your hands when the day of judgment shall come.” (Firmilian, “The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 396) PHILIP “Nicanora having thus spoken, the Apostle Philip, along with Bartholomew and Mariamme and those with them, prayed for her to God, saying: Thou who bringest the dead to life, Christ Jesus the Lord, who hast freed us through baptism from the slavery of death, completely deliver also this woman from the error, the enemy; make her alive in Thy life, and perfect her in Thy perfection.” (“The Acts of Philip,” Author unknown, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 498)THEODOTUS “Now, regeneration is by water and spirit, as was all creation: ‘For the Spirit of God moved on the deep.’ And for this reason the Savior was baptized, though not Himself needing to be so, in order that He might consecrate the whole water for those who were being regenerated. Thus it is not the body only, but the soul, that we cleanse.” (“Excerpts of Theodotus,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 44)
Randal W Deese	How many more quotes do I need Troy Day? Do your homework…hahaha
Randal W Deese	It doesn’t matter… lol
Marc Jackson	Randal W Deese You simply got no case hereOn your historical argument: CATHARS, ALBIGENSIANS BOGOMILS paulinians and so on openly opposed the sacraments of the Orthodox church and called them pagan – pagan washings after A.D. 100 influenced most of eastern orthodox sacramentalism Now back to the Bible – go read the whole discussion on the Greek in the words of Jesus: Today you will be with me in Paradise and come back if you have any question http://probible.net/luke-2343/
Randal W Deese	This doesn’t really prove your case… there have always been some that have rebelled against truth
Marc Jackson	Give us the Greek words pls Christopher Noel Boggess Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig, 1869,under Luke 23:43.kai eutys eipen moi hoti amen amen semeron lego soi, metâ€™ emou ese en toparad[eiso]. (â€œAnd immediately he said to me: â€˜Most truly today I tell you,You will be with me in Paradise.’â€)â€œAnd he said to him: â€˜Today I tell you the truth,that I should have you in Paradise with me.’â€)â€“Gospel of Nicodemus (=Actsof Pilate)Therefore, at least from the fourth century C.E. until well into the twelfthcentury C.E. there were readers who understood the text at Luke 23:43 asâ€Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.â€Kenneth L. Harrell I think the above answers your quesiton: Why can’t people just take God at his word and obey
David Chambers	This has been fun. Thank you both for the discussion.
Marc Jackson	oh David we are just starting 🙂 here’s the Greek http://probible.net/luke-2343/
Christopher Noel Boggess	Lets not lisyen to what man says lets listen to jesusMark 1616
Randal W Deese	Hmmmmm…. wasn’t that written by Mark, a man?
Christopher Noel Boggess	No its what jesus said
Christopher Noel Boggess
Christopher Noel Boggess	He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
Christopher Noel Boggess	Any questions
Marc Jackson	Just one – is this part of Mark in the oldest manuscripts? Answer – NO; added later by the Orthodox church 🙂
Randal W Deese	Troy Day. Sometimes you are just silly… really silly
Marc Jackson	Randal W Deese please take your time and read carefully in full; no point to comment before reading the actual Greek http://probible.net/luke-2343/
Randal W Deese	I don’t need to. It does not apply to this thread…
Christopher Noel Boggess	One must be born again to enter heaven
Paul L. King	You are misquoting the Scripture–the use of a logical fallacy. To be accurate, Jesus said you must be born again to SEE the kingdom of heaven, not enter. Our eyes are opened to see the kingdom when we are born again. We enter the deeper kingdom life after regeneration when we are baptized in water and the Holy Spirit.
Marc Jackson	Well if you think the words of Jesus on salvation and going to heaven do not apply to the question Is water baptism necessary to be saved? then there is very little to talk about Randal W Deese
Christopher Noel Boggess	Jesus preached this right after he was baptised
Christopher Noel Boggess	Here is your sign guys duh
Christopher Noel Boggess	Dont be like the hipocrites searching the scriptures for a way around baptism
Marc Jackson	Christopher Noel Boggess was the thief on the cross born again?
Christopher Noel Boggess	Died under the old law
David Chambers	The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.Luke 16:16
Marc Jackson	Christopher Noel Boggess was the thief on the cross baptized in water?
Randal W Deese	The thief may have been baptized in water. We don’t know absolutely
Marc Jackson	that’s just as silly as saying the thief could have been a member of the local Orthodox church
Randal W Deese	It is exegetically accurate
Paul L. King	Randall’s argument is a logical fallacy–an argument from silence, not exegetically accurate
Christopher Noel Boggess	And you guys call yourself pentacostals
Christopher Noel Boggess	Shame on youActs 2 38
Christopher Noel Boggess	Mark 16 16
Christopher Noel Boggess	Romans 6
David Chambers	The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.Luke 16:16
Christopher Noel Boggess	I got plenty of scripture if we want to be ignorant
Marc Jackson	you aint got no scripture about the thief on the cross?
Randal W Deese	Thief not a real issue under new covenant…
Christopher Noel Boggess	Nevermind im commanded to let the ignorant be ignorant and avoid contention have a great day guys
Marc Jackson	Thief went to Paradise. Many baptist and orthodox have not
Randal W Deese	Sounds like humanism to me
Christopher Noel Boggess	Troy Day did the thief die after jesus raised from the grave the third day
Marc Jackson	Christopher Noel Boggess What did Jesus say to the thief?
Christopher Noel Boggess	huÂ·manÂ·ism[Ëˆ(h)yoÍžomÉ™ËŒnizÉ™m]NOUNan outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.
Randal W Deese	I am talking about Troy’s comment directly above mine… keep up with the conversation
Christopher Noel Boggess	I do not see how that applies here
Marc Jackson	So you are making a humanistic judgment?
Christopher Noel Boggess	O that nice and rude Randal W Deese
Randal W Deese	You take things way to serious… lol
Marc Jackson	Why you attack the person and not the issue?
Christopher Noel Boggess	I have given scripture if you will not exept that thats not my prob
Christopher Noel Boggess	Troy Day so me were the sinner prayer saves you
Randal W Deese	I havent disagreed with you yet Christopher Noel Boggess
Marc Jackson	Randal W Deese I have no problem putting you in the corner with your own theology but whats the point? Arent we all here to examine the Bible together? Why dont you discuss the issue instead of always resorting to ad hominem attacks?
Christopher Noel Boggess	Sorry Randal W Deese its just contentious here right now
Marc Jackson	Just FYI Christopher Noel Boggess Randal W Deese is defending infant baptist. Is that what you believe too?
Randal W Deese	You actually use ad hom all the time… you just do it a little more subtly…I could give you a list in a few days…
Marc Jackson	Randal W Deese We see that our Lord Jesus Christ was baptized by St. John the Baptist â€¦But what about St. Mary the Virgin ?
Randal W Deese	It would be long… you are very good at making it seem like you are not doing ad hom… but, some of us have been around the theological block, if you will… why is it good for you? I do it once in a while in jest, but you do it very often…
Christopher Noel Boggess	You have to choose to serve god and choice to be burried with christ
Marc Jackson	Why Randal W Deese 🙂 because that would make her a common sinner? Just tell us Was Mary the mother of Jesus baptized in water?
Christopher Noel Boggess	Yes
Marc Jackson	you believe in infant baptism like Randal W Deese ? I am surprised to hear that
Christopher Noel Boggess	No
Christopher Noel Boggess	I dont believe baptizing any under 15
Randal W Deese	Yes. It is more Scriptural than dedication will ever be…
Christopher Noel Boggess	Can you show me scripture on infant baptizm so i can believe
Christopher Noel Boggess	Randal W Deese
Randal W Deese	Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far offâ€”for all whom the Lord our God will call. (Acts 2:38-39: NIV, emphasis added)The phrase â€œyou and your childrenâ€ implies both the adult listeners and their offspring. The Greek word for â€œoffspringâ€ (teknos) can include young children as well as those grownup.
Randal W Deese	… that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in Godâ€”he and his whole family. (Acts 16:33-34; NIV, emphasis added)The phrase â€œhis whole familyâ€ can be read to include little children and infants. This emphasis on the family unit parallels the first Passover when the Israelites gathered in a home to celebrate a Passover meal (Exodus 12). The blood of the sacrificed lamb was smeared over the door of the house, not on individuals. This contrasts with the modern mindset that elevates the individual over the family, and which emphasizes individualized faith over believing together with others.
Randal W Deese	SummaryYes, it is. While there is no description of an individual infant being baptized, the Bible describes five separate household baptisms:â€¢ The Household of Cornelius, Acts 11:13â€“14: â€œSend men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.â€â€¢ The Household of Lydia, Acts 16:15: â€œAnd when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, â€˜If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.â€™ So she persuaded us.â€â€¢ The Philippian Jailorâ€™s Household, Acts 16:33: â€œAnd he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.â€â€¢ The Household of Crispus, Acts 18:8: â€œThen Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.â€â€¢ The Household of Stephanas, 1 Corinthians 1:16: â€œYes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas.â€Some have argued that while the Bible may say â€˜householdâ€™ or â€˜familyâ€™ this does not have to include children. Maybe those households did not include children. While this may be the case, it is hard to imagine that at least one of these households did not include children. And given the fact that we have five explicit references to a whole household being baptized, we have to assume that many, many more such households were baptized. Surely some of them included children.The word â€˜householdâ€™ for any Israelite of the day included everybody in the household, children included. We must remember that a household always included children throughout the Scriptures. Every time God established or spoke about His covenant with the House of Israel, it included the whole of Israel: men, women, and children. Noahâ€™s whole â€˜householdâ€™ was taken into the ark with him (Genesis 7:1); Abraham had his whole household circumcised (Genesis 17:23), and specifically his son Isaac when he was eight days old (Genesis 21:4); the whole household of every family was taken out of Egypt, and Godâ€™s institution of the Passover specifically included the children (Exodus 12:24â€“28). If the Apostles had taught that children were to be excluded from full inclusion in the covenant, such an innovation would not have fit the prophetic covenants which preceded the fulfilled covenant enacted through Christ.The pattern of the Old Testament covenants formed the framework for the apostolic understanding of the true covenant of Christ, and those covenants included children. They were covenants which were made with a nation, in which every household participated. This is what is expressed in the household baptisms of the New Testament. Even when an individual was baptized, this baptism placed him in a larger body. Individual adult baptisms occurred, but there were no individual covenants.The Bible teaches us that under the Old Covenant, every male child was circumcised on the eighth day after birth. With his circumcision, the child became a full and complete member of the covenant and could eat of the Passover sacrifice. Baptism in Christ absorbed and fulfilled this rite, as it absorbed all initiation and cleansing rites of the day. Circumcision, we know from the first council in Jerusalem (Acts 15:5; Acts 21:21), was no longer necessary for the Gentile convert or his children. Nowhere in the Bible is it hinted that while absorbing the rite of circumcision, baptism would suddenly and without precedent exclude children. Jesus did not have a problem with children gaining full inclusion to the covenant: He Himself was circumcised as an infant (Luke 2:21), like John the Forerunner (Luke 1:59).Here we need to introduce a statement by Jesus Himself on the subject of children and faith. In Luke 18, some children are brought to Him to receive a blessing. His disciples try to interfere. But Jesus immediately rebukes them, saying, â€œLet the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of Godâ€ (Luke 18:16). A sentimental reading of this passage tells us that Jesus loves children, and that we should not stop them from trying to ask questions about Him or wanting to pray to Him, or tell them that they are too young to get to know Him. While this is true, no one the Lord is talking to thought differently. These were people, we have to remember, who circumcised their children, included them in the Passover rituals and taught them from a young age about God, Israel and the Prophetic writings. The Jews were fanatical, by our modern standards, in their desire to raise their children in the faith. This is not a Hallmark moment in the Gospels.Jesus is in fact including children in His Kingdom. And His inclusion of children in the Kingdom includes them in the covenant He establishes in His Name. There is no partial involvement in the Kingdom of Heaven, just as there is no partial inclusion in the covenant. We are either members or not. Jesus is saying that children are in, and there is to be no argument about it. There is absolutely no room here to make an argument that children must wait until some magical age before they too can be included with full rights into the Church and at the altar table.Jesus was once an infant Himself. And Jesus was never separate from God, even in His motherâ€™s womb. The heretical Nestorians claimed that Jesusâ€™ divinity only descended upon Him at baptism. But the Orthodox Church has always declared that He united God and man from the moment of His conception, and the Orthodox believe that His Kingdom belongs to children. Not only because the covenant is with the whole household; not only because a distinction of age was never introduced into the practice of baptism; not only because such a distinction would not have matched the Old Testament covenants which served as the prophetic model for the New Covenant; but because Christ Himself became incarnate as an infant child. In Him all ages, like all humanity, are sewn into the perfect union expressed in the eucharistic supper of the New Israel, which we join only through baptism. Christ makes both childhood and adulthood fully capable of expressing and participating in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Christopher Noel Boggess	I dont need your interpentation i just know were in the bible they baptized babies Randal W Deese
Randal W Deese	Christopher Noel Boggess Do the research… households ALWAYS had one or more babies in them… the rest is Church history!
Christopher Noel Boggess	So were babies submerged in water
Christopher Noel Boggess	And what sins did they repent from
Randal W Deese	Christopher Noel Boggess I teach infants are innocent
Christopher Noel Boggess	So why they need to be baptized
Randal W Deese	Christopher Noel Boggess They enter into the body of christ
Christopher Noel Boggess	But they dont need to they are perfect without sin
Randal W Deese	Christopher Noel Boggess I didn’t say perfect… only innocent
Christopher Noel Boggess	I say perfect
Christopher Noel Boggess	Without sin
Randal W Deese	No one is born perfect according to Scripture, but innocent is quite different
Christopher Noel Boggess	Show me were we are born in sin
Randal W Deese	I didn’t say we are born in sin
Christopher Noel Boggess	Then babies have no sin
Randal W Deese	Since infants are without moral knowledge, without moral obligation, and without moral choices, this adequately explains why the Bible explicitly describes infants as morally â€œinnocentâ€ (2 Kin. 21:16; 24:4; Jer. 13:26-27; Ps. 106:37-38; Matt. 18:3). When Bible talks about the shedding of â€œinnocent bloodâ€ (2 Kin. 21:16), the context of this passage is child sacrifices. It says that King Manasseh â€œmade his son pass through the fireâ€ (2 Kin. 21:16). That is, he sacrificed his innocent child upon the altar of a false god. God had commanded, â€œthou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire of Molechâ€ (Lev. 18:21).
Paul Hughes	The thief on the cross was not baptized — but there were extenuating circumstances.You don’t get baptized to get saved, you get baptized because you are saved — as a confession of faith & initiation into new life.
Randal W Deese	Popular doctrine.. no Scripture anywhere teaches one gets baptized “because you are saved”. Give the direct quote please. Thanks
Paul Hughes	Baptismal regeneration is distinctly non-Pentecostal, We are saved by faith alone.The baptismal regeneration error comes from misunderstandings and assumptions from a few prooftexts. Rituals are what Sacramentalists believe, not Pentecostals. We are not saved by taking sacraments, either. That idea is also based on spurrious prooftexting.”Repent and be baptized” actually implies that the person who repents will go on and demonstrate that repentance by going through the demonstration of cleansing which is water baptism.A parallel is Paul’s explanation, esp. in Romans, that Abraham was saved by faith, not by circumcision. Circumcision was the demonstration of commitment. Abraham was saved by faith in what was yet to come. Paul makes it clear that although being circumcized was a vital part of Jewish identity, it was not salvific.Indeed, like circumcision, water baptism is worthless apart from faith, an empty ritual.
Bill Terrell	You have to be saved to be baptized,confess with your mouth believe in your heart,then we are baptized in the death burial and resurrection in the name of Jesus,but I find that people will strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.
Randal W Deese	Scripture please
Bill Terrell	Romans 10:9 esv because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Bill Terrell	Matt 23:25You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
Bill Terrell	Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from th
Randal W Deese	Bill Terrell You didn’t give a passage that teaches this:”You have to be saved to be baptized”If this is true, a passage needs to clearly teach this sentence. Don’t change the subject. We are not discussing where confession fits in..Now, the Colossians passage actually is teaching Baptismal regeneration, not your view.So, I’m waiting for clear passages that teach what you proclaimed.Thanks
Bill Terrell	Anyone can be baptized saved or not but itâ€™s a confession for saved people,and thereâ€™s no scripture that says your not saved till your baptized …Jesus Is Lord of the SabbathMatt 12:1-41At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, â€œLook, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.â€ 3He said to them, â€œHave you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
Randal W Deese	1. Confession is PART of the process, but it is NOT THE process. 2. There is no Scripture that says that “You have to be saved to be baptized”3. There are clear passages that include baptism in the process of salvation: Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21 (By the mouth of two or three witnesses let everything be established)4. The Sabbath has nothing to do with this issue.5. It is important to teach the entire truth about salvation. We can never use a single verse to teach an entire truth. Scripture MUST interpret Scripture!
Bill Terrell	No sir thereâ€™s nothing thatâ€™s says you have to be saved to be baptized and thereâ€™s nothing that says you have to be baptized to be saved my point exactly.2)reason why I put the scripture in about the sabbath was,Jesus used the revelation of one scripture to tear down the Pharisees theology on the sabbath.3)there are many scripture to point to our salvation is in the blood,belief and faith,before baptism even comes in the picture…I havenâ€™t the time right now to go in depth but we can agree to disagree,ðŸ˜Šlove ya my brother!
Randal W Deese	Bill Terrell 1. You cannot ignore the CLEAR passages that I gave you and still come up with your personal view. 2. It isn’t Pharisaical to teach straight and clear Scripture. It is more Pharisaical by adding or subtracting from clear Scripture. That was part of their problem.3. Your third point should be included in the salvific process, but without baptism, they are incomplete. We need to teach the Whole Counsel of God – not merely cherry pick the passages we like while ignoring the rest.I wish you did have time to go in-depth, because have baked theological doctrines have caused much pain in the church today.
Marc Jackson	Christopher Noel Boggess This turned to an interested discussion but just to be fair theres no verse in the Bible to legitimize the 15 years age either right?
David Chambers	The heresy abounds in this thread, lol.
Marc Jackson	What do you mean?
David Chambers	People seem to believe that you can’t be saved unless you’re baptized
Randal W Deese	David Chambers What you call heresy has been taught since Christ and the Apostles. It wasn’t until the Reformation that it became POPULAR to reject the historical true doctrine. If it is heresy – you just condemned every Christian until the Reformation to hell? Really? Think deeper
Bill Terrell	I got saved 23yrs ago in a 6 by 9 cell when the blood of Jesus hit my life I felt the weight of sin leave and the joy of salvation hit me I knew I was a new creation I wasnâ€™t baptized till months later but I knew I was saved before I even entered the water,we are saved by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony.
Randal W Deese	That is the first step. It is like all the people of Israel who had blood on their doorposts were saved from the death angel, but they were not totally saved until they went through the red sea which is a type of baptism. Both are needed… If they would not have went through the red sea, they would have been slaughtered – even after being saved from the death angel.
Bill Stockham	“…this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also–not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…” (1 Peter 3:21)
Bill Stockham	For all these very heated discussions with hateful comments…”My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” (John 15:12-13) “Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.” (1 John 4:7-8) “Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.” (1 John 4:20)
Randal W Deese	Hey. I have a question for you. Did Jesus love the Pharisees?
Randal W Deese	If you answer yes, please explain Matthew 23 and other similar remarks in light of your comments.
Randal W Deese	Did Apostle Paul love all those he ministered to?
Randal W Deese	Please explain the comments of Paul about wishing some Judaizers be castrated – which is really clear in the Greek text.
Bill Stockham	Not only did he love them but He laid down His life for them…””Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate.” (Matthew 23:37-38)
Bill Terrell	John 3:16â€œFor God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Bill Terrell	Ephesians 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Randal W Deese	Ok…Let us go deeper then…
Bill Terrell	I didnâ€™t have to go deeper to get saved I just called on the name of Jesus!!!can I get a Amen
Randal W Deese	Ephesians 2:8 reads â€œthrough faithâ€ (Î´Î¹á½° Ï€Î¯ÏƒÏ„ÎµÏ‰Ï‚), but not saved â€œthrough the faithâ€ (Î´Î¹á½° Ï„á¿†Ï‚ Ï€Î¯ÏƒÏ„ÎµÏ‰Ï‚). Of course, the two phrases are almost exactly the same, but the question is: does Ephesians 2:8 say â€œthrough faithâ€ or â€œthrough the faithâ€?The answer is that itâ€™s a manuscript variant. (For those who donâ€™t know what biblical manuscript variants are, see the video: Is the King James Bible Infallible? A link to the video is below.) Some Greek manuscripts have the definite article Ï„á¿†Ï‚ (the feminine singular genitive form of the word â€˜theâ€™), while some donâ€™t. The majority of the manuscripts do include Ï„á¿†Ï‚ in Ephesians 2:8, as reflected by its inclusion in the Byzantine Majority Text. For Ephesians 2:8, the Majority Text reads:â€œÏ„á¿‡ Î³á½°Ï Ï‡Î¬ÏÎ¹Ï„Î¯ á¼ÏƒÏ„Îµ ÏƒÎµÏƒá¿³ÏƒÎ¼ÎÎ½Î¿Î¹ Î´Î¹á½° Ï„á¿†Ï‚ Ï€Î¯ÏƒÏ„ÎµÏ‰Ï‚, ÎºÎ±á½¶ Ï„Î¿á¿¦Ï„Î¿ Î¿á½Îº á¼Î¾ á½‘Î¼á¿¶Î½ Î¸ÎµÎ¿á¿¦ Ï„á½¸ Î´á¿¶ÏÎ¿Î½.â€The reading found in the greatest number of New Testament manuscripts is not always the original reading. However, in this case we believe that the majority reading (Î´Î¹á½° Ï„á¿†Ï‚ Ï€Î¯ÏƒÏ„ÎµÏ‰Ï‚) is the original one. On this point the comments of a Protestant on the manuscript evidence are interesting. He states: â€œSince the presence of Ï„á¿†Ï‚ is supported by the majority of manuscripts as well as one important uncial in the Alexandrian family (and is therefore of great antiquity), it can be concluded from the external evidence that the article is original.â€ (Gregory P. Sapaugh, Is Faith a Gift? A Study of Ephesians 2:8, A Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Spring 1994â€”Volume 7:12)THE faith…. just like the rest of the New Testament:THE FAITHThe System Of Doctrine And Morality Peculiar To Christianity:1. Statements encouraging us to properly maintain the system of faitha. Jude 3 contend earnestly for the faithb. Gal 1:23 preaching the faith he once tried to destroyc. Eph 4:5 only one faithd. Eph 4:23 until we all attain to the unity of the faitha. Acts 14:22 encouraging them to continue in the faithf. Acts 16:5 strengthen in the faithg. 2 Cor 13:5 test yourselves to see if you are in the faithh. 1 Cor 16:13 stand firm in the faithi. 2 Ti 4:7 1 have kept the faith1. 1 Tit 1:13 reprove then that they may be sound in the faithk. 1 Ti 4:1 in later times some will fall away from the faith1. 1 Ti 4:6 nourished on the words of the faith and sound doctrinem. 1 Ti 6:10 wandered away from the faithn. 1 Ti 6:2021 Gone astray from the faith2. Statements of general interest:a. Gal 3:23 before the faith came we were under the lawb. Gal 6:10 especially the household of the faithc. Acts 6:7 obedient to the faithd. Rom 10:8 word of faith we preacha. Lk 18:8 will Jesus find the faith upon the earth when He returns
Randal W Deese	It is talking about ALL THE FAITH concerning what the Bible says about salvation…not ONLY faith…. This is why we must study Scripture IN-Depth.
Bill Terrell	Romans 10:13 For â€œeveryone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€
Bill Terrell	As a boy all I knew he died for me and I called on that name thatâ€™s above every name!!!Jesus!
Randal W Deese	Bill Terrell Romans 10:13 is ONE verse. It does not tell the entire truth. It is only a PART…. one verse out of context is a pretext for a prooftext.
Bill Terrell	John 11:25Jesus said to her, â€œI am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he li
Bill Terrell	John 14:6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me
Bill Terrell	Randal W Deese im sorry sir I see it as truth.
Randal W Deese	You only see PART of the truth. I gave you passages you conveniently ignored. I accept all your passages, but say they are incomplete. I believe in the Whole Counsel of God on the topic.
Bill Terrell	Randal W Deese God bless you brother I have enjoyed our discussion!!!love ya.
Randal W Deese	Bill Terrell Blessings… Btw, I used to teach what you presented. Have a great day.
Marc Jackson	David Chambers In Pentecostalism people who seem to believe that you can’t be saved unless you’re baptized come mainly from Oneness churches and insist not only water baptism but specifically water baptism in the name of Jesus ONLY In Catholicism/Orthodoxy, water baptism is not only salvific act but serves as1. justification from old sinful nature 2. casting all demons out of the person3. baptism with the Holy Spirit (not really but similar)4. acceptance of church membership 5. indulgence like assurance for going to heaven (it’s a paid service)Hardly any one of the 1 billion strong global Pentecostal movement believes water baptism is all that
Randal W Deese	It is still the historic and orthodox faith – no matter if anyone disagrees with it, it is correct
Randal W Deese	True believers do not follow the crowd, but truth
Marc Jackson	David Chambers To put it plainly what Randal W Deese teaches is not a Pentecostal teaching
Randal W Deese	Troy Day I am Pentecostal by definition… so, you are incorrect. There are Pentecostals who teach this doctrine.Just like most Pentecostals do not teach in Entire Sanctification. This does not mean they are not Pentecostal.Pentecostalism isn’t HOW YOU define it. It has official defintions.
Marc Jackson	In Catholicism/Orthodoxy, water baptism is not only salvific act but serves as1. justification from old sinful nature 2. casting all demons out of the person3. baptism with the Holy Spirit (not really but similar)4. acceptance of church membership 5. indulgence like assurance for going to heaven (it’s a paid service)Hardly any one of the 1 billion strong global Pentecostal movement believes water baptism is all that
Randal W Deese	Troy Day You are mixing up Orthodox and Catholic big time.
Marc Jackson	Not really. They are being mixed on their own to begin with. One claims it is more Catholic universal than the other, while the other claims to have more Orthodox teaching than Orthodoxy itself. Bottom line no Pentecostal believes that water baptism is what Catholics and Orthodox use it for – like church membership and all
Randal W Deese	Troy Day Actually, Orthodox-Pentecostalism does… Hence, you are Incorrect
Marc Jackson	Not really the point here. We’ve long determined in Pentecostalism that our theology would be based on the Bible to reject and renounce all man made teachings, creeds and confessions. What you have offered during your stay in our group is nothing more than post medieval liturgicalism and semi Orthodox sacramentalism that at the end no one in Pentecostalism really believes. Our historic stance has been Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, and your attempt to bound Pentecostal theology in creedal sacraments or liturgical confessions is simply not well taken. At the end what you are saying has little to do with the Bible and overall Pentecostal Theology…
Randal W Deese	Troy Day Not according to dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic…There is only ONE consistent doctrine that ALL Pentecostals agree on – When one receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit the initial evidence is speaking in tongues.Prove that all Pentecostal groups hold to what you say… This will be fun… Because I already know the outcome.
Marc Jackson	Randal W Pentecostals do not believe what you believe Pentecostals believe. Actually, we as a movement are getting pretty tired of old fallen religions coming and telling us how we should believe and practice our own Pentecostal faith. Many dead religions love to jump on the the Pentecostal bandwagon to save their numbers…
Marc Jackson	Grover Katzmarek Sr We’ve been reading Acts 2 together here since last night What is your take on that scripture ?
Anthony McCabe	It is the Blood and Salvation of Christ (Yeshua) that SavesShalom and Blessings to all
Marc Jackson	Bill Terrell has made a GREAT point IFGod has no problem baptizing someone with the Holy Spirit without them being water baptizedTHENGod has no problem saving someone without them being water baptizedChristopher Noel Boggess is it possible your insisting on water baptism for salvation be a residue of previous involvement with oneness ?
Christopher Noel Boggess	Man has to be born of water and spirit or he can not enter into the kindom of god
David Chambers	Being born of water means natural birth (not baptism). Being born of Spirit means spiritual birth (being born again).
Christopher Noel Boggess	This was preached right after jesus was water baptized notice that water and the spirit was present
Christopher Noel Boggess	David im sorry you are wrong
Marc Jackson	Christopher Noel Boggess I have to agree with what Dr. Paul L. King wrote earlier today in the group. Here it is again The question is confused by a misunderstanding of the meaning of “salvation.” As popularly used, it means conversion or regeneration or getting to heaven. However, biblically, salvation is much more than fire insurance, though it begins there. When someone asks me, “Are you saved?” I say yes I am and no I am not. In graduate school I did a 50 page research study on Hebrew and Greek words for salvation in the Old and New Testaments. A study of the words for “save” in Hebrew (“yasha” and its cognates) and in Greek (“sozo” and its cognates) reveals at least 8 nuances of meaning for the terms–save from hell, save from sin, gain victory (David won a victory in battle=David won a salvation), healing, wholeness, security, safety, well-being, deliver, and more. Further, salvation is used of past, present, and future–I have been saved; I am being saved; I will be saved. My spirit was saved when I was born again; my soul (mind, will, emotions, attitude, personality–all that is within me–Psalm 103:1) is in the process of being saved. My mind is being renewed, my will is being conformed to Christ, my attitudes and character and personality are being transformed, my emotions are being healed, etc. I will be saved (completely redeemed, delivered, healed, etc.), at the 2nd coming of Christ. Applying this to the verse in question, “he who believes and is baptized shall be saved” is baptismal salvation, but not baptismal regeneration. As some one pointed out, Jesus does not say that the person who has not been baptized is damned. Along with 1 Peter 3:21, “Baptism now saves,” this is referring to ongoing post-conversion salvation of the soul, not salvation as regeneration or conversion. Baptism is necessary, as it was for Jesus, “to fulfill all righteousness,” to grow in obedience to maturity in our faith, not to get to heaven. We “receive the word implanted which is able to save our soul” (James 1:21). Early Church Father Cyprian taught according to John 3:3-8 the distinction between being born again (converted), born of water (post-conversion water baptism), and born of the Spirit (subsequent baptism with the Spirit). Peter did not say that the Caesareans who were converted, filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues, that they were required to be baptized to be converted, but rather because they were converted and filled with the Spirit they should not be refused baptism. (Acts 10) Paul did not tell the Ephesians that they were not converted because they had John’s baptism, not Jesus’ baptism, but it was another step in their growth. Do we need to be baptized–yes. Do we need to be baptized to go to heaven–no.
Christopher Noel Boggess	Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? note note 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection
Marc Jackson	Christopher Noel Boggess would it be fair to say that your attention to water baptism is left over previous involvement with the oneness folk?
Christopher Noel Boggess	If thats not being born again i dont know what isWe die we crucify our flesh we are burried in christWashed of our sinsBorn of the spirit raised in newness of life
Marc Jackson	But many have gone to heaven without water baptism
Christopher Noel Boggess	Prove it
Marc Jackson	thief on the cross
Christopher Noel Boggess	Died under the old law
Marc Jackson	so it was possible to be saved without water baptism under the old law?
Christopher Noel Boggess	The old law u have to sacrifice sins for them to pass over
Marc Jackson	were they not saved by faith in the OT too?
Christopher Noel Boggess	Im done here im not going to spend any more time with you
Marc Jackson	Correct. Many were saved in the OT without the need of water baptism.How did this need change in the NT?
Christopher Noel Boggess	Nope its based on scripture i spent two months in oneness group if you dont believe baptism saves you you are not penticostal act 2 38
David Chambers	Hey man, it’s just the Blood. Only the Blood that saves us. Baptism is just a public expression of your new life in Christ. Nothing we do saves us. Even the faith we have in the grace of God is itself a gift from God. Our works are as filthy rags to a Holy God. The Oneness group is steering you in the wrong direction, brother. Wake up and smell the grace!
Christopher Noel Boggess	Do you got scripture proving that
Marc Jackson	We are saved by faith alone. Not faith and baptismal works. Baptism doesnâ€™t accomplish or seal your salvation; itâ€™s a public declaration of the work the Lord has already accomplished within. So the whole premise of baptismal regeneration defies the meaning and purpose of baptism. Not only that, the immediate context of Peterâ€™s exhortation eliminates the possibility of anyone successfully using Acts 2:38 as an argument for baptismal regeneration.
Link Hudson	Why would baptism be a “work” an more thana confesson would? Where does the Bible say anything about baptism being a public declaration? Cyril of Jerusalem used to baptize people naked.
Marc Jackson	What does any of this has to do with the discussion?
Grover Katzmarek Sr	To the contrary
Marc Jackson	Grover Katzmarek Sr We’ve been reading Acts 2:38 together here since last night What is your take on that scripture ? http://probible.net/acts-238/
Grover Katzmarek Sr	After work ill post some more. Break time is about up
Marc Jackson	David Chambers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1TPn98v7O8
Marc Jackson	Anthony McCabe Grover Katzmarek Sr Paul L. King The relevant words in the passage cited from Acts 2:38 on baptism are BAPTISQHTW hEKASTOS hUMWNOne of the notions I’ve attempted to inject into the discussion of the QH”passive” forms is that (even for active verbs such as BAPTIZW) we shouldunderstand those -QH- aorists and futures as MIDDLE-PASSIVE rather thanjust passive. The above 3rd-person imperative could be conveyed simply as”each of you should be baptized” and you could call it truly passive, butif you understand it as “each of you should get baptized” you really dohave a verb suggesting that, although the ritual of baptism may beperformed by another, it is the will and determination of the personundergoing baptism that is at least as important as the ritual performed bythe agent. The MIDDLE force of these -QH- forms finds pretty satisfactoryexpression in the English of our period by using “get” as an auxiliary andthe English passive participle as the complement of a periphrasticconstruction.
Christopher Noel Boggess	Troy day do you think god inteaded it to be that complicated were only very intelligent ppl would understand or simple were everyone could understand
Marc Jackson	The Greek is pretty clear. It is the translations that have made it so complicated to understand
Christopher Noel Boggess	Its not complicates ppl make it complicated
Link Hudson	I had a friend who looked up ‘born of water and of the Spirit’ in so called ‘church father’s’ writings. The 18 references that explained it took born of water to refer to water baptism.
Marc Jackson	And not just baptism Link but actually washing with water. Many of those church fathers practiced sprinkling water and so on traditional stuff We already discussed this with the orthodox brother to some extent The Greek as we expressly shown here means this repent for your sinsand as a result of your repentance be baptized – to put it simplyHere is the Greek discussion of acts 2:38 in full length http://probible.net/acts-238/
James Armstrong	Personally, I feel itâ€™s the blood of Christ that covers our sins, but, the water of baptism is what causes them to be forgotten. Forgiveness is wonderful but the memory of being wrong can be a stumbling block. God can save whosoever he pleases, but my humble opinion is that baptism is a necessity.
Paul L. King	Paul’s image of baptism in Romans 6 is burial of the old man after death of the old man. The old man is dead through faith in Christ and the new man is alive regardless of whether or not the old man has been buried. But the old man needs to be buried in baptism so as not to corrupt the new man. Paul is alluding to one of the old Graeco-Roman practices of punishing a murderer by strapping the body of the victim to the back of the murderer. Eventually, the rotting corpse of the victim will kill the murderer. Paul is alluding to the need for baptism to bury the old man and not leave him to cause decay to the new. Grossly graphic, but apt.
Marc Jackson	Great point Paul L. King

PentecostalTheology .com

508 Comments

Reply September 17, 2019
Louise Cummings

The thief on the Cross wasn’t Baptized.But I believe we should do what Jesus said as closely as possible. He was Baptized , as an Example. Although it isn’t the water that saves us. But the obedience. I believe Romans 10:9. Tells us what we have to do to be saved. But it’s His Blood that washes our sins away. But He does teach us to follow Him. And He was Baptized. It shows our old sins buried with Him in Baptism. And when we come , it like we are Risen With Him. And shows a Good concision towered Him.
Reply September 17, 2019
Varnel Watson

SOME say it still IS RichardAnna Boyce Isara Mo
Reply September 17, 2019
Ray E Horton

Nothing to do with our salvation, which is by grace through faith alone. We are told to be baptized and to baptise as a confirmation and acknowledgement of what has already happened, symbolizing death of the old man and arising to new life.
Reply September 18, 2019
Varnel Watson

YES

Reply September 18, 2019
RichardAnna Boyce

Troy Day, can we define salvation every time you mention it?; as we are always talking at crossed purposes
Reply September 19, 2019
Varnel Watson

define it RichardAnna Boyce and dont be too judgmental pls
Reply September 19, 2019
RichardAnna Boyce

Troy Day salvation and sanctification are closely connected. Like salvation, which has a past, a present, and a future aspect, sanctification does as well.
1. Past Sanctification
Positional sanctification is past (and permanent): we were set apart in Christ at our conversion.
2. Present Sanctification
Progressive sanctification is present: we are daily being more and more conformed to His image in holiness.
3. Future Sanctification
Ultimate sanctification is future: one day we shall see Him as He is and we shall be like Him. There will be no more sin in thought, word, or deed—and no “old man” to make us even want a shred of that old, shoddy condition.
Reply September 19, 2019
Varnel Watson

RichardAnna Boyce SEEMS to me you are defining Sanctification and NOT salvation BTW why do you address me in this discussion too? – if you read the discussion you would see I am no where in it??? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-water-baptism-mandatory-for-salvation/
Reply September 19, 2019
RichardAnna Boyce

all of our discussions are at cross purposes because we dont define the different Biblical meanings of both sanctification and salvation; so i am starting the discussion on both
Reply September 19, 2019
RichardAnna Boyce

Biblically and historically, justification through faith in Jesus Christ
(or salvation by grace through faith) has been the center of the Christian Gospel.
Reply September 19, 2019
RichardAnna Boyce

i define salvation as receiving eternal life.
The only condition for salvation is most frequently expressed by the verb pisteu)) “believe,”
which is used 98 times in John
(compared to 34 times in the Synoptics and 16 times in the rest of the NT).
The significance of its verbal form is that it is presented as a response to the revelation of Jesus Christ as the Son of God.
It is not static, but dynamic; one believing has everlasting life consequences.
Reply September 19, 2019
Varnel Watson

RichardAnna Boyce I simply exclaimed YES to what Ray E Horton said I have made no other attempt in this discussion at all IF you take the time to read it you will see it is a talk between 2 x-members of the group One being lutheran the other oneness They were trying to make both sense from their heretical teachings to no avail I do not believe heresy can define salvation On the matter of sanctification I’ve addressed you under the OP on sanctification this AM but since you asked my answer is this

I would not ask a person who dont own a car How to drive I could go and even say not ask a blind man how to see

SO why should I asked a non-entire sanctified person about entire sanctification? Melvin Harter
Reply September 19, 2019
RichardAnna Boyce

In John, salvation is not conditioned on how one believes, but whom one believes, or not the kind of faith, but the object of faith.
Reply September 19, 2019
RichardAnna Boyce

While there is one condition for salvation, John may represent that condition
with figures of speech designed to illustrate the response of faith.

Look. In 3:14-15 the anticipated response is to look upon Christ and His work for eternal salvation, as the Israelites looked upon the serpent on a pole in the desert for their physical salvation (Numbers 21).
The point of the illustration is the simple look of faith.
Reply September 19, 2019
RichardAnna Boyce

Hear. Similarly, John uses hearing to represent believing.
More than the physical sense is involved.
To hear is to listen, but also to accept as true, as we understand with the colloquial expression, “I hear you.”
Belonging to Jesus as His sheep is conditioned upon hearing His voice of truth (10:16, 27), as also is obtaining eternal life (5:24).
The unbelief of the lost is due to their not hearing God’s word (8:43, 47).

Enter. Speaking metaphorically of Himself as the door to the sheepfold,
Jesus also pictures the response of faith as entering the door (10:9).
To enter correlates with faith
in that both express one’s trust for protection from the threat of the enemy.

Feed. The notion of feeding on Christ (6:57),
including eating His flesh and drinking His blood (6:54),
is another analogy of the faith that obtains eternal life, as is clear in 6:35 and 6:47. Similar to the drink of living water (eternal life) (4:10, 14).
To eat and drink is to appropriate or receive something upon which life depends. There is no work or merit associated with these activities.
Rather, the benefit is from what is appropriated,
which corresponds to the object of faith, which is Christ.

Come. Another metaphor for faith is expressed by the word come.
In 5:40 coming to Christ obtains eternal life.
In 6:35 come is equated with both eating and believing.
Coming, drinking, and believing are used synonymously in 7:37-38
as the condition for salvation. To come is to trustingly approach Christ for help.
It entails no human merit or effort.16

Receive. Another word that may represent faith is receive.
The promise that any who receive Christ will become children of God
is closely linked to believing in 1:12.
Believe appears to be in apposition to receive here in order to explain it.17
In 1:12 to receive is to welcome or accept as true the person or words of Jesus Christ (3:11, 32-33; 5:43).
This is in contrast to those who “did not know” and “did not receive” Jesus
as the Christ in 1:10-11.
These pictures of faith all denote receptivity, agreement, or trust.
All are essentially simple activities and essentially passive.
None communicates the idea of merit, work, effort, or achievement.
Neither do they communicate an exchange of one’s life or the
ongoing submission of one’s life to Jesus as Master in order to obtain eternal life.
When we observe the clear statements in John about the condition for salvation, the effect of this condition, and the pictures of this condition, we conclude that John presents faith alone in Christ alone as the only condition for salvation.
Reply September 19, 2019
Varnel Watson

RichardAnna Boyce again I am NOT sure what your many copy pasts explain It is very hard to follow your trend It almost seems you got no clue what salvation is and have to copy paste from external sources to help your understanding

Reply January 9, 2020
Mike Partyka

No.
Reply January 10, 2020
Varnel Watson

YES
Reply April 1, 2020
Varnel Watson

hope not for aint no one getting saved anytime soon

Reply April 2, 2020
Michael Green

Troy Day did Jesus get baptized?
Reply April 2, 2020
Varnel Watson

Michael Green did Jesus needed to be saved during pandemics ?
Reply April 2, 2020
Michael Green

Troy Day I don’t understand

Reply April 1, 2020
David Smith

Where do people come up with this stuff?

Reply April 2, 2020
Varnel Watson

they say from the BIBLE Acts 2 4

Reply April 2, 2020
Isara Mo

With the world NO but with me YES and I don’t have to explain..
If God had wanted a salvation without water baptism there was no need of preparing a man to. prepare THE WAY..
Reply April 2, 2020
Chris Westerman

No.
Reply April 3, 2020
Roger L. Frederick

“I’m not ready – To take the Gamble!”
Reply April 3, 2020
Varnel Watson

what do you mean by that Roger L. Frederick
Reply April 4, 2020
Louise Cummings

I believe if you been born Ed again. You will go to Heaven.
Reply April 4, 2020
Louise Cummings

No Jesus didn’t have to get saved. He never sinned.
Reply April 4, 2020
Varnel Watson

JESUS got baptized one time too
Reply April 7, 2020
Bill Stockham

Let’s ask the thief on the cross!!! “Then one of the criminals said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, TODAY you will be with Me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:42-43)

Reply April 7, 2020
Varnel Watson

you mean personally or what … ?
Reply April 7, 2020
Bill Stockham

Troy Day if this flu get’s worse, yes…

Reply April 7, 2020
Ray E Horton

No!
Reply April 7, 2020
Doyle Rogers

The thief on the cross was saved as …:
Jud 1:23 And others ( AS ONE) save with fear, pulling them (PULLED) out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.—————- ONE THAT WILL HAVE NO REWARD WHEN HE STANDS BEFORE GOD . …………..1Co_3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
1Co_3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire…………JESUS SAID………………………………Mat_7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. ..HE MADE THE FATHERS WILL VERY CLEAR IN ..Mat 28:19 Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Reply April 7, 2020
Varnel Watson

Doyle Rogers I dont think RichardAnna Boyce believes in confession lie you do And all the Jesus-only folk like Jevan Little will insist on the water baptism as sign of their own repentance

Reply April 7, 2020
RichardAnna Boyce

I am flattered that those who don’t like Free Grace, continually misrepresent us, as i CONTINUALLY repeat FG teaches that REPENTANCE IS COMPULSORY FOR BELIEVERS to earn a blessed Christian life now and rewards in the Millennium. Thankyou to all those law schoolmasters that lead us to grace 🙂
Reply April 7, 2020
Varnel Watson

RichardAnna Boyce there Doyle Rogers you and RichardAnna Boyce can change some copy pastes on REPENTANCE while Joe Absher and myself go preach for ppl to repent being an essential service and all 🙂

Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

YES or NO and WHY?

Reply May 31, 2020
Bible

Troy Day no because baptism means identification 🙂
Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

Bible never had the BIBLE speak to me more clearly Do you also know the future ?
Reply May 31, 2020
Bible

Troy Day the Bible know the future.

Reply May 31, 2020
Gerg Keyco

Nope. Salvation has always been based on our faith in the messiah. Not one OT saint was baptized for instance.

Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

isnt baptism about faith in messiah too?
Reply May 31, 2020
Gerg Keyco

Sure is. You do it in obedience to being a follower of jesus after you get saved. I waited 7 years. I wasnt as obedient as I should have been. ?
Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

Gerg Keyco what do you mean by that?
Reply May 31, 2020
Gerg Keyco

Waiting 7 years?
Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

Gerg Keyco for a baptism ?
Reply May 31, 2020
Gerg Keyco

Yeah. I had my old catholic hangups with being baptized as a child. Had to work that out. Catholicism is odd. You are raised semi Christian without ever knowing God. I had a lot of junk I had to work out and sift the paganism from the christianity. But I got there. ?
Reply May 31, 2020
Gabe Cannon

Gerg Keyco Yes 100% Baptism is essential for salvation- Matthew 28:18-20, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, Ephesians 1:7, Matthew 26:28, Revelation 1:5 just to names a few
Reply May 31, 2020
Gerg Keyco

Would you change your mind Gabe if I showed you verses on how to be saved that dont mention baptism?
Reply May 31, 2020
Gabe Cannon

Gerg Keyco Sure share away?
Reply May 31, 2020
Gerg Keyco

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Roman’s 10:9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Reply May 31, 2020
Aaron Vgp

No, because God’s grace saves you not a bath.

Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

what do you mean by that?
Reply May 31, 2020
Aaron Vgp

Troy Day we aren’t saved by getting in some water.
Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

Aaron Vgp but baptism IS in the BIBLE How is it what you are saying making any theological sense ?
Reply May 31, 2020
Aaron Vgp

Troy Day we aren’t saved by the water are we. What did John the Baptist say about what he was doing and what Jesus was going to do?
Reply May 31, 2020
Aaron Vgp

When the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he must do to have eternal life, Jesus didn’t list be baptised.
Reply May 31, 2020
Gabe Cannon

Aaron Vgp Disagree 100% God’s Grace saves us through baptism- That’s where our sins our forgiven- Acts 2:38, Ephesians 1:7, & Revelation 1:5
Reply May 31, 2020
Aaron Vgp

Gabe Cannon so you’re saying God needs water to give us grace and save us?
Reply May 31, 2020
Kayley Bartlett

We are saved by the baptism of the holy spirit, not water ?
Reply May 31, 2020
Gabe Cannon

Aaron Vgp He said go sell everything you have and then come follow me. After Jesus died and was resurrected durning his 40 days, he gave the great commission-Matthew 28:18-20 (Come follow me) by becoming a disciple. Then look what the apostle said after Jesus had died? Acts 2:38-41
Reply May 31, 2020
Aaron Vgp

Gabe Cannon so God does require water to save us then?
Reply May 31, 2020
Gabe Cannon

Aaron Vgp Yes that’s what several scriptures on baptism say. You will not find one conversion in the book of acts were a believer was not baptized
Reply May 31, 2020
Aaron Vgp

Gabe Cannon so God isn’t powerful enough but the water makes salvation possible…………….yeah no.
Reply May 31, 2020
Gabe Cannon

Kayley Bartlett Baptism is where we get the Holy Spirit- Acts 2:38
Reply May 31, 2020
Gabe Cannon

Aaron Vgp Ahhh Yes… I have thoroughly studied out baptism for the last 10 years. I would highly recommend getting these three books and study it out yourself?
Reply May 31, 2020
Aaron Vgp

Gabe Cannon God doesn’t require water to give us his spirit or grace. The idea that he is powerless to do so without water is simply absurd.
Reply May 31, 2020
Gabe Cannon

Aaron Vgp 2nd Book on Baptism
Reply May 31, 2020
Gabe Cannon

Aaron Vgp 3rd Book on Baptism
Reply May 31, 2020
Gabe Cannon

Aaron Vgp Where does it say that in scripture?
Reply May 31, 2020
Aaron Vgp

Gabe Cannon where does it say what? That he’s powerless without water? I’d love to see where that is too, that’s my point.
Reply May 31, 2020
Kayley Bartlett

Gabe Cannon what about Ephesians 4:5? There is ONE Baptism. Water baptism is an outward sign of our inward change..
Reply May 31, 2020
Gabe Cannon

Also in regards to the young ruler… Jesus hadn’t died yet and the young ruler was still under the old covenant.

Look at everything in order in regards to how Jesus and the apostles teach about baptism-Starting with John the Baptist and going through each book in the New Testament. An easier way is to search for baptism- write down each scripture verse and then put them in order and see how believe in baptism are intrinsically intertwined- They go together
Reply May 31, 2020
Gabe Cannon

Kayley Bartlett Amen thank you? yes that one baptism that Ephesians 4:5 is talking about is water baptism. Here’s a good short video on baptism by Francis Chan

https://youtu.be/wXuIvievIA0

Reply May 31, 2020
Andrew White

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved .
Gal3:27 -29 by baptism we put on Christ and become heirs according to the promises to Abraham.

These are important words and show the importance of baptism.

Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

is this oneness JESUS Only theology ?

Reply May 31, 2020
Renz Albert Balaod

Yes. Because according to Jesus’ words that if you do believe in His name then you must be baptize in His name with water(Mark 16:16).

And also baptism is the first step toward salvation. That was why Jesus always says that all the disciples must be baptized in His name(Mat 28:19).

And when the Jailer asked Paul how could he be saved, Paul said that “believe in Jesus’ name and you will be saved” and after that the Jailer got baptized(Acts 16:29-34).

When we have faith in the savior then we must do His will. And one of His will was to baptized all the people, that was why before Jesus preached the Gospel he was baptized first by John the Baptist.

Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

but thats oneness
Reply May 31, 2020
Renz Albert Balaod

Testimonies of the bible is enough, especially when it comes directly to the savior. Jesus said “be baptized,” so baptism is mandatory for salvation.
Reply May 31, 2020
Chris Westerman

The thief on the cross did not get baptized and he got saved.
Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

Chris Westerman hey now oneness man just jumped into this discussion dearly with love
Reply May 31, 2020
Chris Westerman

Troy Day Am not oness.
Reply May 31, 2020
Renz Albert Balaod

Because he got directly the promise of Salvation to Jesus, the savior. Jesus said to him directly, “you will be with me in paradise”. Through that words of Jesus, he received salvation. But Jesus did not say to us “directly” that we are saved, so we must be baptized in His name so that we can be saved.

Reply May 31, 2020
Karl Ernst Von Buddenbrock

So because baptism replaces circumcision (and extends it), the promises undertaken by parents at their child’s baptism will, with prayer and rearing in the faith, hopefully result in salvation. Very important, yes. The greatest act of evangelism is for Christians to produce children.

Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

but is it mandatory for salvation ?
Reply May 31, 2020
Karl Ernst Von Buddenbrock

Troy Day no because so many babies have been murdered in the womb and have seen the light of heaven. Preferable, but not mandatory.
Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

Karl Ernst Von Buddenbrock how do you mean in this in relation to OP – I mean theologically not just social justice
Reply May 31, 2020
Karl Ernst Von Buddenbrock

Troy Day i think by logical deduction, since many (like David’s son, who died just after birth) are saved without baptism, it can be deemed non-essential. It might not be esse tially “theological” but simple logic suffices.

Reply May 31, 2020
Alfredo Salgado

The thief on the cross next to Jesus was not took off the cross to be baptized and yet Christ said on this day you will be with me in paradise! Amen! It is by Grace through Faith in Christ Alone that men are saved

Reply May 31, 2020
Chris Grier

Alfredo Salgado he was not yet under the new treatment since Jesus has yet to die and be resurrected.
Reply May 31, 2020
Alfredo Salgado

Chris Grier there was no animal sacrifice the guy was a sinner he probably sinned all the way to the cross and yet Christ let him into the kingdom ? Pure Grace through Faith in Christ like I said ! Unless you have an explanation why he would be forgiven without OT “LAW” if you will!

Reply May 31, 2020
Nikki Sheppick

No, that is the baptism of John the Baptist …. water unto repentance, but if God so leads you to do so, then do so, for in the doing so, you are proclaiming that the Holy Blood of the Lamb, Jesus the Christ, is your Redeemer …. and thereafter, continue on in Him, following after His Holy Word of Truth and Life Eternal, Who is Jesus the Christ. Amen and Amen. Review what John the Baptist said about the One coming after him and how He would be baptizing, going forward, …. with the Holy Spirit and with fire (baptism of fire) …. Believe God’s Word over all. Blessings ….

Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

But JESUS Himself was baptized into it too
Reply May 31, 2020
Nikki Sheppick

Troy Day <3 Yes, He was .... review it all carefully and prayerfully in Jesus' Name. <3 <3 <3

Reply May 31, 2020
John Edison Manalo

Good question.

Baptism – public declaration of your faith in Jesus as the sole source of salvation.

Requirement : NO, but if possible, do it as a part of your testimony. If it is a requirement, is the thief on the cross beside Jesus saved or not?

Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

but doesnt GOD WANTS us to be baptized?
Reply May 31, 2020
John Edison Manalo

If we are wondering what for did Jesus undergo water baptism, I believe it is just to set an example for us, or better a reminder, that as we believe in Him, together in baptism we dip our old self to death and rise again to life, figuratively (in our spiritual life) and literally (in the physical life – in our sinful to godly nature).
Reply May 31, 2020
John Edison Manalo

Troy Day if Jesus did it, I think we can confidently say that He also wants us to do it right? ? But surely it is not required, if so He will not miss saying that it is. ?
Reply May 31, 2020
Sandra Thomas Quiney

John Edison Manalo nicely explained ?

Reply May 31, 2020
Melvin Issac

The 3 basic steps.
1) Repentance
2) Water baptism
3) Anointing by Holy spirit – speaking in tounges.
Reply May 31, 2020
Aubrey B. Palabrica

FOR SALVATION? NOPE… baptism happens after salvation…
Reply May 31, 2020
Zach Payne

Not mandatory but if you’re a follower of Jesus why not announce your loyalty with a water baptism
Reply May 31, 2020
Aroop Kumar

No, but it is a command to be obeyed after salvation.
Reply May 31, 2020
Tumelo Katane

Baptism is essential for salvation. Baptism doesn’t go solo as people would separate baptism from faith or sound doctrine. Baptism is packaged in the essence of salvation.

The Greeks or those who understood Koine Greek, comprehended very well when the autographs and copied manuscripts talks about baptism.

Whoever believes the the Gospel (the death of Christ because of our sins, His burial and His resurrection on the third day according to scriptures 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) they will get baptized. There is no debate to what Jesus spoke. Whatever He says, whether you believe it or not, it settles it Troy Day
Reply May 31, 2020
Jong Dela Cruz

No
Reply May 31, 2020
Linda Vellucci

No
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

You are not saved until you are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Look at Sauls Conversions in Acts. Jesus told Saul what he must do.
God spoke to Saul. Saul repented for three days. Saul was blinded and led to Damascus. Saul was healed an immediately Baptized. Only after his baptism did he start preaching.
1) Saul was a sinner.
2) Saul heard God and believed.
3) Saul repented for 3 days.
4) He was healed from blindness.
5) He was Baptized. And added to the body of Christ. We are under the New Testament covenant. The thief on the cross was not. Has no bering on baptism.
All who were saved in the New Testament were baptized. So if you have not Heard the word of God. Believed the word of God. Confessed that you believe. And been baptized. You are not saved and not a Christian. You must obey the gospel. Baptism is not a work. Baptism is done to you . You cannot Baptized yourself.
Do not be deceived by Satans lies. He does not want you to have salvation. That’s why you have been taught false doctrine so you will not be on the narrow path to heaven. If all Saul would of need to do was believe then why was he told he must be baptized. The Great Commission go unto all the world preaching the gospel and baptizing in name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. God Bless.

Reply May 31, 2020
Greg Will

John Broussard the thief on the cross was saved, Christ told him he would be in Paradise with him that day. The thief on the Cross was not baptized. Baptism is 4 a sign of your new life in Christ but it is not necessary for salvation. Absolutely not.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Greg Will
We are not under Old Testament law. We are under Jesuses New Testament covenant. The thief on the cross had absolutely nothing to do with baptism. Under the New Testament covenant you are required to be baptized. Read it yourself.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Greg Will
I do not want you to be lead astray my brother I want you to be saved. If you are not baptized and added to the body of Christ. You are Not saved. And if you die you will be separated from God eternally.
Reply May 31, 2020
Joseph Herrera

John Broussard I’m guessing you belong to an Icoc church?
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Joseph Herrera
No
Reply May 31, 2020
Joseph Herrera

Good, well brother I hope you’re okay with scripture. We are saved solely based on faith alone in What Jesus did on the Cross not through any work lest we should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:28,5:1, and Galatians 3:24). Adding anything to the Gospel is very dangerous because it takes away from the message and the power of the Cross and redemption that was paid for by Christ and Paul talks about this danger specifically in (Galatians 2) if you’re saying there’s one law then you gotta keep all the Laws. You are not saved based off of anything else then faith in what Christ did for you. (Acts 2:38) is not a salvation Equation because it does not have faith in it. 120% I agree if you are saved you should get baptized that is demonstrating faith, but if someone where not able to be baptized or be submerged in water you’re condemning them to hell. You’re adding a work to the work of the Gospel and essential saying God cannot save someone if there isn’t a tub of water near by. That beckons to ask the question is faith when you have faith? Or is it faith when have faith and are baptized. In an essence you’re saying people in prison cannot be saved, people on there deathbed cannot be saved, people who cannot be submerged in water for whatever medical cannot be saved, people in foreign countries who don’t have a safe body of water cannot be saved. Very dangerous brother. If you think the Holy spirt is withheld until there baptized look at (Acts 10) these men and women are worshiping the Lord and the Holy Spirit is in them even Peter says, then there baptized. Hopefully this a healthy dialogue. I agree 100% if you are saved you should be baptized. But baptism is not salvation only Jesus is much love brother.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Is this adding to the gospel?
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Is this adding?
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

How about this?
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

I’m gonna keep adding.
Reply May 31, 2020
Aminiasi Tuni

John Broussard Amen brother.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Everyone in the New Testament that was saved was baptized. Coincidence?
Reply May 31, 2020
Joseph Herrera

John Broussard context context context, why do you think Jesus emphasizes on believing so many times in the gospel of John. Mark 16:16 “But he who does not BELIEVE will be condemned”.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Context is your salvation. If you want salvation you will be baptized. If you do not you won’t.

Reply May 31, 2020
Greg Will

No
Reply May 31, 2020
Vic Cooper

No,
Water baptism is a symbolic must, not a salvation must.

Just like if your married, you don’t have to wear your wedding ring, but you ought to want to wear your wedding ring.
Reply May 31, 2020
Ken Ledwell Jr.

No. Salvation is through faith in Christ alone. Ephesians 2:8-9.

Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Ken Ledwell Jr.
Everyone saved in the New Testament was baptized for the remission of sins.
Reply May 31, 2020
Ken Ledwell Jr.

John Broussard, not everyone. The criminal on the cross next to Jesus did not have opportunity to be baptized. However, Jesus assured him that he would be with Him, “in paradise”.
Baptism is a public proclamation of faith in Jesus, and it should be done! But it’s not a requirement for salvation.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Ken Ledwell Jr.
you do not know is he had the opportunity to be baptized. John the Baptist had been baptizing multitudes.
You do not know. It’s possible he was baptized he new Jesus he new of his kingdom. It’s possible. But it Doesn’t matter Jesus was still alive. Jesuses New Testament covenant was not in effect.
Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

baptism did by John is different from the actual baptise wi did today
Reply May 31, 2020
Ken Ledwell Jr.

John Broussard, but baptism is adding a work to what only comes by faith. Again, read Ephesians 2:8-9.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Baptism is NOT work. Baptism is done to you you can’t baptize your self.
Reply May 31, 2020
Ken Ledwell Jr.

John Broussard, if your speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, then I agree. But saying that ANYTHING plus faith in Christ is wrong. This includes baptism. I strongly encourage everyone to be baptized, but it’s not a prerequisite of salvation.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Ken Ledwell Jr.
Never said that.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Ken Ledwell Jr.
Baptism is part of faith.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Ken Ledwell Jr.
1st Peter 3:21
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Ken Ledwell Jr.
1st Peter 3:21
Reply May 31, 2020
John Edison Manalo

John Broussard may I ask, so a man on a deathbed, when shared the Gospel, then after receiving Jesus (let’s assume that he truly believed by faith), immediately died, if he was not baptized, then he will be condemned to hell?
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Do you think God would let you live your life entirely the way you want rejecting his word his commandments. Your entire life and then in the last seconds you go ok now I except you God. He will say depart from me I never new you. I can’t believe anyone would think that would be ok. Jesus is very specific on what’s needed for salvation.

Reply May 31, 2020
Mike Walker

Was the thief on the cross baptized ?

Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Mike Walker
The thief on the cross was under Old Testament law. We are not. It has nothing to do with baptism.
Reply May 31, 2020
Gabe Cannon

Mike Walker That’s an easy one Mike… Let me share:

Was the thief saved- Yes? Yes… But the thief on the cross is not our example of how to be saved that was taught by Jesus and the apostles teaching.-Acts 2:38. The reason the thief was saved, was because Jesus forgave the sins of this man before the new covenant has been established. Jesus hadn’t died yet. People including the thief, at that moment we’re still under the law of Moses. The criminal on the cross was forgiven the same way the paralytic was forgiven in Matthew 9.

Second Christian baptism is about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.None of those things had happened yet, when the criminal on the cross was forgiven. Listen to the words of Romans 6:1-7 and try to understand why it would be absurd to think the criminal on the cross would be under the same obligation to be baptized as people today.

The thief on the cross is not our example of conversion. After His resurrection, Jesus gave the Great Commission, regarding baptism.

The book of acts details how this Great Commission was carried out- Acts 2:38-41 Ex. 3,000 were saved and added to their number(the church).

In every case of conversion, in “The Christian Age.” Thousands of them in the book of Acts, baptism was essential.

All were saved (without exception) on exactly the same terms- the law of pardon given in the Great Commission
Reply May 31, 2020
Mike Walker

Gabe Cannon Thank you for you (very) long response. I agree with everything you wrote. My point is…. You don’t have to be baptized to be saved.
Reply May 31, 2020
Aaron Vgp

John Broussard we aren’t under law at all, but under grace.
Reply May 31, 2020
Mike Walker

John Broussard Was Jesus crucified after John the Baptist’s ministry.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Yes
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Mike Walker I said John the Baptist Baptized multitudes during his ministry. We do not know the thief wasn’t one. It’s possible. Your just assuming he wasn’t and we were not told he wasn’t.
Reply May 31, 2020
Mike Walker

John Broussard I’m not assuming anything. I personally believe that the thief on the cross was saved AT THAT MOMENT. Thinking that the thief was someone that was baptized by John is a stretch. It’s possible. He could of been. But we don’t know. (I think this page is infiltrated with Baptists , I can feel it )
Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

John baptise for repentance the baptise we have today symbolise to the the bury of Jesus
Reply May 31, 2020
Benjamin James Sherwin

John Broussard Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. That was before anyone was baptised. If Paul said circumcision and uncircumcision counts for nothing, and we know that we are saved not by doing good deeds but by grace through faith in Christ it isn’t about what we can do. When Christ was baptised, it wasn’t because He needed baptising but He said he did to ‘fulfil all righteousness’ meaning he fulfilled the whole law including the requirement for water baptism. So a person is not saved by their being baptised, but the importance of baptism is to declare ones faith in Christ and thus being saved, for Paul also says with the heart one believes and is justified and confesses and is saved. Water Baptism is an act of confession.
And also you have to remember that there is a Spiritual baptism that takes place when we accept Jesus as Lord. We are baptised in the Holy Spirit which is our guarantee of our inheritance.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Benjamin James Sherwin
Since you brought up Paul how was Paul saved?
Was Paul Baptized?
Reply May 31, 2020
Benjamin James Sherwin

John Broussard I’m sure Paul was baptised, but I’m also sure that there are many people who on their death bed ask Gods forgiveness and receive salvation
Reply May 31, 2020
Benjamin James Sherwin

Paul was saved before he got baptised. His baptism was a confession of His dedication to follow Christ now that He has been saved
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Benjamin James Sherwin
No he wasn’t.
Reply May 31, 2020
Benjamin James Sherwin

John Broussard can you share a scripture that shows this?
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Benjamin James Sherwin
No one can read Acts 9 verses 3-18 and possibly think Paul/Saul from Tarsus who was a Christian murder was saved before the Damascus road conversion. You can’t be serious.
Reply May 31, 2020
Benjamin James Sherwin

John Broussard that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying He was saved before being baptised, not before He saw the vision and Ananias prayed for Him
Reply May 31, 2020
Benjamin James Sherwin

“So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized;”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭9:17-18‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/59/act.9.17-18.esv
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Still wrong.
Jesus told Saul what he MUST do not what he should do and it was to be baptized.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Benjamin James Sherwin
In the Bible there are only 2 ways to receive the Holy Spirit through the laying of Hands by an apostle or through Baptism.
Reply May 31, 2020
Benjamin James Sherwin

John Broussard Jesus commands us to be baptised, much like He commands us to love one another and to take communion in remembrance of Him, but we know that we don’t always love as we aught to or take communion anywhere near enough as is good for us, but if these were required for salvation, you’re bringing the grace of God down your something that is earned and that is a false teaching
Reply May 31, 2020
Benjamin James Sherwin

grace of God down to*
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Like you said Jesus commands us to. So if you believe why would you not follow his commands. Especially one that saves your soul.
Reply May 31, 2020
Benjamin James Sherwin

These commands are ones we follow out of love for God, not to earn salvation. They are acts of worship, of dedication to Him, to maintain and help us grow in faith.
Reply May 31, 2020
Benjamin James Sherwin

I would like to leave you with this verse. I hope it blesses you and you know I’m on your side! ☺️
God bless
”For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:15‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/59/rom.8.15.esv

Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

This is why so many have been deceived by Satan. If he can convince an entire denomination that baptism is unnecessary. The entire denomination will be lost. This is what has happened.

Reply May 31, 2020
Aaron Vgp

John Broussard yeah, you’re damned for not having a bath ?
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Aaron Vgp
It’s how you come in contact with Jesuses blood that washes away your sins. You are not saved without it.
Reply May 31, 2020
Aaron Vgp

John Broussard no it’s not.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Let’s see what Jesus says.

Reply May 31, 2020
Sami Ungureanu

If possible yes.
Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

No! Water baptism is the expression what was already done inside

Reply May 31, 2020
Rraajj G

Hingano Kaitu’u Water baptism is must.
Reply May 31, 2020
Rraajj G

Hingano Kaitu’u

Mark 16:
15.And he said to them, Go into all the world, and give the good news to everyone.
2 He who has faith and is given baptism will get salvation; but he who has not faith will be judged.
Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

1 Corinthians 1:17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. –
Reply May 31, 2020
Nathaniel Taylor

Hingano Kaitu’u this speaks of Paul’s mission, not of salvation.

Reply May 31, 2020
Martin Sivaraj

No , but repentance .
Reply May 31, 2020
Martin Sivaraj

No,but repentence. Baptism is symbolic, identify our life with the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Reply May 31, 2020
Gabe Cannon

Martin Sivaraj It never says that in the Bible. Actually the apostle Peter says this in 1 Peter 3:21 NLT “And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Reply May 31, 2020
Doug Brooks

Baptism is an outward expression of a (previous) inward change. You don’t have to be baptized to be saved. But if you’re saved, you’ll be baptized.
Reply May 31, 2020
Eric Rankin

The thief on the cross was still living under the Old Covenant Law of Moses and therefore immersion in Jesus name for forgiveness of sin was not yet instituted.

Hebrews chapter 9 clearly explains this, especially 9:17. Jesus hadn’t died yet when He told the thief “today you’ll be with Me in Paradise”.

Jesus had the authority to forgiven sins while on earth, and after He ascended to the throne after resurrecting, He then granted forgiveness of sin and the Holy Spirit through immersion.

Immersion is done in faith by each person and is a working of God in which the spiritual circumcision of the heart takes place, Colossians 2:12. ?
Reply May 31, 2020
Mike Cresswell

Immersion in water is massively important preparing the way for Jesus’ baptism in the Holy Spirit, the washing away of sins,sharing in death and resurrection of Christ … etc
Reply May 31, 2020
Stephen Valenta

Every time I see this question, my heart just hurts. If you ever find yourself asking this question, you should probably also ask yourself why you’re asking this question. Why does it matter if it saves or not? Why does it matter if it’s required?

Short answer: it doesn’t.

You get baptized because, at the end of the day, you were commanded to do it by the Lord Himself. If he is really Lord of your life, you WILL be baptized! Your response to that command shows where your heart and allegiance really is.

“And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Reply May 31, 2020
Mark Evans

Stephen Valenta Beautiful answer… Luv it… because its to the point and not confrontational.
Reply May 31, 2020
Stephen Valenta

Mark Evans thank you ?
Reply May 31, 2020
David Cartland

Stephen Valenta amen to that

Reply May 31, 2020
Eric Rankin

We can’t get around Acts 22:16, “Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.”

Paul was not saved on the road to Damascus, not until by faith he followed the instructions of Ananias.

Paul was given these instructions, and this is consistent with the instructions given by Peter and the Apostles in Acts 2:38 and would explain why the book if Acts is full of examples of immersion. ?

Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Eric Rankin
Jesus told Paul what he must do. Not what he should do. What he must do. That was to be baptized for the remission of his sins.

Reply May 31, 2020
Clarkent S. Zeñaby

The question is answerable by a yes and a no. And my answer is YES!!! ?
Reply May 31, 2020
Davies David

The good theif who was hang on d cross beside jesus was he had water baptiism?
Christ promised him paradise

Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Davies David dont you read from the top they say he is under the Old covenant

Reply May 31, 2020
Francois Ebreo French

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV? ‘”For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9’

Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Francois Ebreo French
Baptism is NOT works. Baptism is done to you you can’t baptize yourself.
Reply May 31, 2020
Eric Rankin

Francois Ebreo French Please provide scripture that directly calls immersion a work. In fact scripture calls immersion a “working of God” Colossians 2:12.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is absolutely true when understood properly. We are saved by God’s grace by our faith in what He says.

Reply May 31, 2020
Cord Faulkner

Acts 2:38
Reply May 31, 2020
Paul Gray

We are saved by faith. That being said the evidence of faith is our works change we stop sinning and we also obey scripture and follow Jesus example. If the master was baptized then the short answer is yes.
Reply May 31, 2020
Davies David

By grace faith n good words
Reply May 31, 2020
Cyril Varghese

Yes water baptism is must and mandatory it’s a law
Reply May 31, 2020
Dave Gillespie

No
Reply May 31, 2020
Christopher Brynestad

To say that God doesn’t save people through baptism is the same as calling the Bible a liar. God doesn’t use baptism alone, but He clearly does use baptism to save people.
Reply May 31, 2020
Stewart MacLeod

No, it’s a sign of the covenant
Reply May 31, 2020
C.J. Bouril

Water baptism is a result of salvation – acting out of an obedient heart, but remember this is also a work that doesn’t contribute anything towards being saved!
Reply May 31, 2020
Talia Hurburgh

No, because babies who pass away in utero haven’t been baptised.

Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Talia Hurburgh now you make us really confuse

Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Water baptism is a visible outward symbol of an invisible, inward transformation
Baptism is a powerful display symbolizing the believer’s death to sin, burial (beneath the water), and resurrection to new life in Jesus (Romans 6:11; Colossians 2:12). Rising out of the water represents the cleansed new life (Romans 6:4).
Reply May 31, 2020
Philip Davis

From John 16: 6-8 Jesus said “But I tell you that I am going to do what is best for you. That is why I am going away. The Holy Spirit cannot come to help [a] you until I leave. But after I am gone, I will send the Spirit to you.”

Jesus leaving was good? Even now that sounds absurd unless we understand what Paul shared in Romans 8:11 “And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you!

Jesus’ sacrifice provided the means for God to personally empower us with His very Spirit! Such a partnership would have been impossible beforehand; remember what happened to poor old Uzzah (2 Samuel 6:7) who merely tried to stable the ark of the covenant… assuming he was “cleaner” than the dirt? Why did he perish? The bible says that God is an all-consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29), He is the POWER that formed and maintains our Universe! No mortal is “equipped” to be in His presence let alone make a unilateral attempt at connecting! Now I realize Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were able to survive the flames of the furnace because God was with them but on that was fire from the outside! God’s ultimate plan is an inside job! Only those “reengineered” to be fireproof on the inside can accommodate the all-consuming power of God! This is just another way of saying born again …being “reengineered” on the inside to host the Presence of God! This is the “inside” job God had planned for humanity since before creation. This is the “inside” job God has established to transform us as promised in 1 Corinthians 15:54 “When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

His Spirit’s presence in our lives is the “golden ticket” required to have the eternal life He has provided for us! (The Bible uses lamp oil to convey this message!)

But that isn’t all!

Did you ever notice that Jesus performed not one miracle until after the Spirit of God empowered Him at His baptism? When we say yes to God and embrace HIS will for our lives, as Jesus did, we are reengineered and outfitted with His Power in like fashion! When Jesus proclaimed in John 14:12-14 (CEV) “I tell you for certain that if you have faith in me, you will do the same things that I am doing. You will do even greater things, now that I am going back to the Father”! His Spirit indwelling us makes such an astonishing promise a possibility! Though this power is not ours to utilize by our own initiative, we are the privileged conduits of His presence!

Not only did He come to pay the price but He taught us many things and even how to live a God-empowered life by example!

I may be going out on a limb here but I believe Jesus actually NEEDED the Holy Spirit to complete His Mission!…if that is true what does that say about us and what we need? And have you been reengineered to be internally “fireproof”?
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Let’s see what Jesus says.

Reply May 31, 2020
Hap Palmer

John Broussard but he also told the other thief on the cross that “surely he will be with him in paradise.”
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Hap Palmer
Are we under the law of Moses?
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Hap Palmer
The thief has absolutely nothing to do with baptism. We are under Jesuses New Testament covenant. You are to be baptized under the new covenant.

Reply May 31, 2020
Mikhail Kelbatyrov

Jesus said it.

Matthew 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:38 King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Reply May 31, 2020
Kenneth Prevatte

No. But why was it important in the book of Acts?
Reply May 31, 2020
Kenneth Prevatte

Why did John baptize at all? Why was Jesus baptized? Why did be tell his disciples to do it. Why is the sky blue?
Reply May 31, 2020
Harry Jones

No. But it is commanded. You can receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit without first being baptized in water. You become saved when you are baptized with the Holy Spirit?.

Reply May 31, 2020
Harry Jones

I thought I would add to this. The normal penticostal belief that when you believe on the the Lord Jesus you receive at least a measure of the Holy Spirit is false. The measure of the Holy Spirit was under the Mosaic Covenant. Under the New Covenant when you receive the Holy Spirit you receive all you can possible get of the Holy Spirit just like Jesus did. The church I was raised in taught things this way and the were totally right. The “measure” way doesn’t hold up even theologically. See Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem.

Reply May 31, 2020
Hap Palmer

It’s your relationship with Christ…. not your relationship with water.

Reply May 31, 2020
Mike Walker

Hap Palmer Exactly !

Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Satan has destroyed so many denominations they are taught how to go to hell instead of heaven. It breaks my heart to see people who want to be Christians argue with the word of God. They can read and still not see. Very sad. I just want to show the truth so all will go to heaven. I wish none would go to hell and be separated from God. God Bless.
Reply May 31, 2020
Lorena Aquino

Baptism is a public declaration of our faith and a symbol that we share in Christ death and resurrection.

In saying that, baptism does not determine salvation.

The thief that was crucified with Christ who believed did not have the chance to be baptised but Jesus said to him, he will be with him n paradise.

Our salvation is by faith and grace, not by good works, not by being baptised or not. However, if you have a chance of being baptised, it is an act of obedience, even Christ was baptised by John the Baptist.

Reply June 1, 2020
Christopher Kennedy

Lorena Aquino

You are so correct. They incorrectly object, though, by claiming that the thief on the cross was under law insisting that we don’t qualify today for such benefit. They are unaware that they are simply doing violence to scripture. How can one under the law receive more grace than those under grace? If the thief on the cross wasn’t condemned for not being baptized how someone go to Hell today for not being baptized. This is a sort of reverse grace and actually demeans Jesus work of salvation on our behalf. This so sad.

Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

If baptism is an essential component of salvation, why did the apostles not think to mention that in their proclamation of the gospel?

Reply May 31, 2020
Ruby Cavida

Terry Eldridge see acts 2:38. God bless you brother
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Terry Eldridge
It’s the Great commission which all were instructed to do. Go and preach the gospel and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit it’s everyone’s job as a Christian is to make more Christians. You cannot be a Christian without baptism.
Reply May 31, 2020
Bob Leyenaar

Terry “Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Terry Eldridge all of them stressed on BAPTISM just as the Lord Jesus Christ commanded.
Read Acts 2. Peter did on the day of Pentecost

Acts 10 Peter did in the house of Cornelius

Acts 8:35-38 Philip did

Paul did with respect to the Jailer
Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

John Broussard
Are you saying you believe in baptismal regeneration? If so it is completely unbiblical.
It is the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit who convicts and regenerates us. Baptism is therefore an outward sign of an inward renewal – definitely not the means to obtaining it.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Terry Eldridge
No
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Terry Eldridge
No
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

What I’m saying is you have been taught falsely and I do not want any of you to be separated from God eternally. So if you would like eternal salvation you must
Hear
Believe repent confess and be baptized.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

What I’m saying is you have been taught falsely and I do not want any of you to be separated from God eternally. So if you would like eternal salvation you must
Hear
Believe repent confess and be baptized.
Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

David Okai
Yes, as an outward sign of an inward renewal.
Let’s take your example of Paul and Silas and the jailer in Acts 29-32. When the jailer said to them “Sirs what must I do to be saved?” what was their reply?
“Believe in the Lord Jesus and be baptised and you will be saved”? No of course not. BELIEVE and you will be saved.

If the Holy Spirit wished us to be informed that baptism is an absolutely essential INTEGRAL component of salvation, here would have been a great place for it to be recorded.

But He didn’t.
Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

John Broussard
I already have been baptised – once as an infant and once as a believer so I’m well covered!
However, I am under absolutely no delusion that my baptism(s) played any part at all in my regeneration and salvation.
Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

Bob Leyenaar
I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to tell me Bob. That believers should be baptised after conversion or that baptism is a means to conversion? ? if you mean the former then I would agree with you because that is what scripture says.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Terry Eldridge
You have not been baptized my friend. An infant is innocent and does not sin. Baptism does not count until you know the difference between right and wrong and understanding sin. So if you have not been re-baptized you are not saved.
Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

Ruby Cavida
“Repent and be baptised” Why would I disagree with that? However, there’s nothing there to suggest that baptism is bound up in repentance as a MEANS to salvation.
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Terry Eldridge as a biblical student, when do we use AND ?

Reply May 31, 2020
Eric Rankin

Faith, confession, repentance, immersion, all together as a complete package is how God’s grace is granted. Without any one of these the others are ineffective.
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Absolutely

YES
YES
YES

Matt 28:18-20
Reply May 31, 2020
Eric Rankin

Biblical saving faith = believing what God has said and doing it.
Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

It is our contention that baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, but we adamantly reject baptism as being required for salvation. We strongly believe that each and every Christian should be water baptized by immersion. Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Romans 6:3-4 declares, “Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” The action of being immersed in the water illustrates dying and being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ’s resurrection.

Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.

Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Hingano Kaitu’u
Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

John Broussard Yes, there are some verses that seem to indicate baptism as a requirement for salvation. However, since the Bible so clearly tells us that salvation is received by faith alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5), there must be a different interpretation of those verses. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. In Bible times, a person who converted from one religion to another was often baptized to identify conversion. Baptism was the means of making a decision public. Those who refused to be baptized were saying they did not truly believe. So, in the minds of the apostles and early disciples, the idea of an un-baptized believer was unheard of. When a person claimed to believe in Christ, yet was ashamed to proclaim his faith in public, it indicated that he did not have true faith.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Hingano Kaitu’u
I would only use the King Jame Version.
Reply May 31, 2020
Theodore A. Jones

Hingano Kaitu’u “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Romans 2:13

Reply May 31, 2020
Jackson Lim

Thief: Lord, remember me when You come in Your kingdom.

did Jesus said: No, go down to your cross first then be baptize.

So no. Baptism is a public declaration of accepting Jesus but not a necessity for salvation. Only by grace through faith.

Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Jackson Lim
Ridiculous.
We are not under Old Testament law. We are under Jesuses New Testament covenant. You are to be baptized. The thief has absolutely nothing to do with baptism.
Reply May 31, 2020
Jackson Lim

Sure! But then again, baptism is not a necessity for salvation. And you are missing the point on the thief not being baptize and being saved

Reply May 31, 2020
Jefferson D. Thatcher

No, it shows obedience to the Lord but salvation is by grace through fsith.
If, you are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2: 8 -9) then salvation is not dependent on you. If you are a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor 5:17) then you have been made entirely new and once that happens you cannot go back. The Father doesn’t look at your sin, He looks at Christ righteousness, always, so even though you may sin, you don’t live in a place called sin (Romans 5 and 6). Stop being sin conscience and start being righteousness conscience. Be blessed

Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Jefferson D. Thatcher nooooo they told you your salvation is not complete unless you baptise
Reply May 31, 2020
Jennifer A Epps

Hingano Kaitu’u who is “they”
Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Those they claim that baptism require for our salvation
Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Those they claim that baptism require for our salvation
Reply May 31, 2020
Jefferson D. Thatcher

Hingano Kaitu’u For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.3.16.NKJV

Reply May 31, 2020
Earp Hickok

The penitent thief on the cross was never baptized, yet Jesus himself said “this day you will be with me in paradise”.

Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Earp Hickok noooo they say he was still under the old covenant
Reply May 31, 2020
Earp Hickok

Hingano Kaitu’u then Jesus himself wasn’t a heretic.
Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Thats what jesus look like when they claim baptism must require for our salvation

Reply May 31, 2020
Barry Beutell

Salvation is through the grace of God by faith. The thief on the cross was saved by faith alone, he didn’t have the opportunity to be baptized. That said, Christians are commanded to seek baptism as a sign of our salvation – water and the Spirit.
Reply May 31, 2020
Barry Beutell

Salvation is through the grace of God by faith. The thief on the cross was saved by faith alone, he didn’t have the opportunity to be baptized. That said, Christians are commanded to seek baptism as a sign of our salvation – water and the Spirit.
Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Baptism is not necessary for salvation. Baptism does not save from sin but from a bad conscience. In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter clearly taught that baptism was not a ceremonial act of physical purification, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is the symbol of what has already occurred in the heart and life of one who has trusted Christ as Savior (Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12). Baptism is an important step of obedience that every Christian should take. Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation. To make it such is an attack on the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ
Reply May 31, 2020
Hingano Kaitu'u

Baptism is not necessary for salvation. Baptism does not save from sin but from a bad conscience. In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter clearly taught that baptism was not a ceremonial act of physical purification, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is the symbol of what has already occurred in the heart and life of one who has trusted Christ as Savior (Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12). Baptism is an important step of obedience that every Christian should take. Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation. To make it such is an attack on the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ

Reply May 31, 2020
Natasha Mason

Hingano Kaitu’u ^^^^this ❤️

Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

I am YET to see actual theological argument in this discussion Any one got any theology proper on this?
Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

I am YET to see actual theological argument in this discussion Any one got any theology proper on this?

Reply May 31, 2020
Karl Ernst Von Buddenbrock

Troy Day http://www.calvinistcorner.com/infant-baptism.htm no doubt this is not good enough for UFB but hey – it involves one if the greatest minds of the Reformation. It might actually help.
Reply May 31, 2020
Varnel Watson

Karl Ernst Von Buddenbrock yeah I am not sure about infant baptism either IF you know what I mean
Reply May 31, 2020
Alan G Hales

Karl Ernst Von Buddenbrock Troy Day, There is no such Biblical thing as infant baptism, God’s M O is, Hear and understand the gospel, Choose to believe it and choose to repent and be born again, Then choose to be baptised in water. Mk 16: 16. Believe then be baptised. Acts 2: 38 Repent then be baptised, So how can an infant hear, understand, believ, choose to get born again then choose to be baptised.
Reply June 1, 2020
Karl Ernst Von Buddenbrock

But an IN DEPTH study of Colossians 2:11,12 shows that baptism has replaced circumcision. It does require more than a ONE VERSE SOLVES ALL approach, though. One has to see a development from the old to the new covenant. Acts 2:49. The promise is to you AND YOUR CHILDREN. Acts 16:15 – Lydia AND HER HOUSEHOLD were baptized. Do you think the children were saved? No, they weren’t. They needed to be brought up in the faith. Remember, we (as paedobaptists) don’t have a problem with adults being baptised.

Reply May 31, 2020
Eleazar Jaring

All things that required by God is important to be performed even the water baptism. I do believed that believing Jesus is the key to salvation but the bible speaks also of one baptism so both are related to salvation. Also remember that Jesus also did water baptism to himself through John.
Reply May 31, 2020
Emanuel Mullen

Baptism do not save any one! The reason baptism is not necessary for salvation is that we are justified by faith. Baptism is an outward action based on an inward reality. It is a testimony that the participant has trust in Christ as Savior and we are identifying ourselves by submitting ourselves to baptism. We cannot rest our hope of salvation on something that we can do for ourselves, rather we must recognize our need for a Savior and accept the Lord Jesus Christ’s finished work.

Reply May 31, 2020
Eric Rankin

Emanuel Mullen Please provide scripture that says baptism is an outward action of an inward reality.
Reply May 31, 2020
Emanuel Mullen

Eric Rankin 1 Peter 3:21; 1 Timothy 1:5; Titus 3:5; Hebrews 10:22. ?
Reply May 31, 2020
Chris Grier

Emanuel Mullen that’s not what Jesus said in John 3:5. You are posting false information.
Reply May 31, 2020
Eric Rankin

Emanuel Mullen These scriptures offer insight into the significance of immersion. They show the importance of immersion and what it actually does.

For example, 1 Peter 3:21 illustrates how God removed sinful man from the earth by water…and in the same way immersion in water removes sin (in God’s eyes) from the individual. Therefore we aren’t “saved” until sin is removed and sin is removed in immersion. Immersion is an obedient appeal to God for a clean conscience as Hebrews says, and when immersion is properly obeyed we know our conscience is clean before God.
Reply May 31, 2020
Emanuel Mullen

Chris Grier Where did I post something about John 3:5? Surely not I!?‍♂️
Reply May 31, 2020
Chris Grier

Why would someone risk their salvation, and ignore the words that came from the mouth of Jesus? I know why…..Satan compromised the truth, made it sound good and got people to listen to a false teacher rather than reading the Bible.
Reply May 31, 2020
Chris Grier

Acts 2:38
Reply May 31, 2020
Emanuel Mullen

Eric Rankin that how you interpret this Scripture from your perspective is how you were taught. Go for it! There are several others given you may need to understand to clarify 1 Peter 3:21.
Reply May 31, 2020
Eric Rankin

Emanuel Mullen Scripture can only be interpreted one way. I appreciate the discussion, but God is a God of specifics and if we as people cannot find direct, specific answers then God is a god of confusion. ?
Reply May 31, 2020
Eric Rankin

Emanuel Mullen I openly appreciate any discussion and am willing to examine all angles. But God’s put together the scripture in a logical, understandable way.
Reply May 31, 2020
Emanuel Mullen

Chris Grier Their is truth and their is error. It is crucial that we interpret properly to determine the intended meaning rather than forcing ideas into the text.
Reply May 31, 2020
Chris Grier

Emanuel Mullen your explanation of Baptism is false. It contradicts John 3:5. No matter what your type here if you contradict the words of Jesus you are wrong!!!!!
Reply June 1, 2020
Emanuel Mullen

Chris Grier For a lack of knowledge people perish. You are taken Jesus words out of context and truly the one misleading the people..
Reply June 1, 2020
Emanuel Mullen

Chris Grier As with any single verge or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Scripture teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Scripture is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (see Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation. Why, then, do some (like yourself) come to the conclusion that we must be baptized in order to be saved? Those who hold to the belief that baptism is required for salvation are quick to point to Act 2:38 and the fact that it says, “be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,” assuming that the word translated “for” in that verse means “in order to get.” However, in both Greek and English, there are many possible usages of the word “for.” Let me give you an example, when one says “take two aspirin [for] your headache,” it is obvious to everybody that it does not mean “take two aspirin in order to get your headache, “but instead to take two aspirin because you already have a headache. There are three possible meanings of the word “for” that might fit the context of Acts 2:38. You need to start by looking back to the original language and the meaning of the Greek word [eis]. This is a common Greek word (it is used 1774 in the New Testament) is translated many different ways. like the English word “for” it can have several different meanings.

Reply May 31, 2020
Richie Porter

I havent seen an example of someone getting saved any other way except the theif cause Jesus has all authority on heaven and in earth.
With that being said in Acts thousands were saved through that example. No where else have i seen thousands getting saved.
Reply May 31, 2020
Donna Smithley

Yes when Jesus was speaking to the theif on the cross they were still under old testament law because Jesus had not died. Now read John 3:1-12 Jesus himself telling Nicodemus that Baptism is necessary. The water he’s talking about is not the pre birth water. Those who say that have not read it through.

Reply May 31, 2020
Enrico Colon

How do you match that up with “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”? Is Jesus talking about a work we can do of ourselves? What Nicodemus says before this is “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”. There is no work of your own flesh you can do to be born again, is there?
Reply May 31, 2020
Stefan Molnar

Donna Smithley /No.The Lord spoke about the “Living Water” (Holy Spirit )According to the Biblical account, Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues before they were baptized.
Reply May 31, 2020
Eric Rankin

One cannot be considered saved in God’s eyes until their sin is removed. Sin is removed or washed away (as God views it) in immersion. Someone explain Acts 22:16.
Reply May 31, 2020
Donna Smithley

Jesus wasn’t baptized by John because he had to be, he was demonstrating obedience to his father’s will. Just as we should.
Reply May 31, 2020
Donna Smithley

So what does he mean when Nicodemus specifically asked how he could enter into his mother’s womb again when he was old? The water Jesus refers to is the cleansing water of a spiritual washing of the soul.

Reply May 31, 2020
Chris Grier

Jesus said yes!!!!!! John 3:5…

John 3:5, KJV: “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5, NASB: “Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

The real question is why would anyone risk their eternal salvation, by not getting baptized?

Reply May 31, 2020
Lee Allen

Chris Grier water birth is the natural birth not baptism

Reply May 31, 2020
Walter Mortley

No
Reply May 31, 2020
Michael Wesolek Sr.

Your obedience is
Reply May 31, 2020
Lee Allen

No no no

Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Lee Allen Satan has received you, repent
Matt 28:18-20
BAPTISM IS A COMMAND
Reply May 31, 2020
Lee Allen

David Okai yes but not for salvation…. Salvation n is first then baptism acts 18: 8
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Lee Allen are you NOT CONTRADICTING YOURSELF?
ON WHAT BASIS SHOULD WE BE BAPTISED THEN?
PROVIDE BIBLICAL REFERENCE

Reply May 31, 2020
Jared Gabrielse Morris

Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize. This can be translated to mean he commands all to be baptized. That’s enough for me to want to be baptized because why wouldn’t I want to do something that my Lord commanded?
Reply May 31, 2020
Jonathan Patterson

https://youtu.be/tRApSu-7G3A
Reply May 31, 2020
Glenn Buchanan

Not required but much recommended

Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Glenn Buchanan YOU MEAN CHRIST OUR SAVIOR COMMAND IS NOT REQUIRED ACCORDING TO YOU a sinner?
Reply May 31, 2020
Glenn Buchanan

David Okai for one thing I’m not a sinner.. I’ve been made the righteousness of God in and thru Christ Jesus.. and 2nd, .. no it is not required.. baptism along with all other lawful deeds has been fulfilled on my behalf by Jesus thru His life, death, resurrection and Ascension.. why aren’t you too
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Glenn Buchanan SO CHRIST WHOM COMMAND YOU ARE DISRESPECTING IS THE SAME WHO MADE YOU SINLESS?

ON WHAT BIBLICAL REFERENCE DO YOU A SINNER WITHOUT CHRIST SAY BAPTISM A COMMAND FROM CHRIST OUR LORD IS NOT REQUIRED?
Reply May 31, 2020
Glenn Buchanan

David Okai are you not listening.. I already give you the answer.. granted you don’t accept it that’s fine .. but you’re asking the same questions again.. and my answer is not a disrespect to my Lord Jesus ..it’s an informed act of my greatest honour.. I have handed over my efforts and attempts to earn right standing with Him and I rest in His finished work… I suggest you try it too, before Satan gets a too strong a grip on you
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Glenn Buchanan can you explain Mark 16: 15-16 to me
Reply May 31, 2020
Glenn Buchanan

David Okai what’s to explain.. it’s as straightforward as it’s written, even in the King James.. if you’re referring to “baptism” .. Jesus is referring to the Future Godly act at Pentecost when believers were indwelled by the Holy Spirit, ( the dèed of our citizenship in heaven).. Why, what do you think it means, that it’s avsimple dipping in water? Why do you suppose God told them the sit put until Pentecost.. because He would baptize them with fire, just like He removed their sin and destroyed them on Jesus, than He made all believers His righteousness …every thing we have is from Him.. a Christian needs to at least get that Foundation right otherwise they’ll run off at the mouth believing they somehow can and will maintaining their salvation by obedience and works of the flesh like baptism … how Ludacrous..
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Glenn Buchanan by your logic how did the about 3000 souls in Acts 2 got saved?
Reply May 31, 2020
Glenn Buchanan

David Okai by faith in Jesus’s finished work.. why, what do you believe
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Glenn Buchanan and your biblical reference is what?
Reply May 31, 2020
Glenn Buchanan

David Okai I think you need to start answering some of my questions I’ve made.. you’re not my teacher I don’t take homework for me
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Glenn Buchanan just one biblical REFERENCE
Reply May 31, 2020
Glenn Buchanan

David Okai Romans 10:9,10,
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Glenn Buchanan says BAPTISM as COMMANDED by CHRIST Jesus is not necessary in our salvation?
Reply May 31, 2020
Glenn Buchanan

David Okai show me one that does
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Glenn Buchanan unless you are saying Jesus Christ COMMAND in Matt 28:18-20 is not necessary
Reply May 31, 2020
Glenn Buchanan

David Okai I have quoted you Romans 10:9-10 which states what is required for salvation baptism is not mentioned by the Holy Spirit through Paul here that’s because it’s not required
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Glenn Buchanan Jesus Christ spoke with all AUTHORITY not some Authority,
By what authority do you say NO to Jesus Christ COMMAND?
Reply May 31, 2020
Glenn Buchanan

David Okai you’re twisting the words of the truth to suit what you believe..( that seems to be some element of works and performance-related Doctrine).. Jesus lived out the Fulfillment of the law, something we were never were intended to be able to achieve.. so that’s one fundamental Point you’re completely missing.. and secondly getting baptized According To Jesus’s words are not imperative for our salvation I would agree though that being baptized is a blessed thing to do in obedience to Him.. but whether we do or we don’t, it does not affect our salvation
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Glenn Buchanan between the two of us who says NO TO MATTHEW 28:18-20?
YOU HAVE TWISTED God’s Word
Repent!!!
Reply May 31, 2020
Glenn Buchanan

David Okai have a nice day..
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Glenn Buchanan thanks
When you are free kindly Read:

Acts 10:47
John 3:23
Acts 8: 35-39
Romans 6:4-5
Col 2: 12
God bless you
Reply May 31, 2020
Glenn Buchanan

David Okai so what is you question? They both support my understanding of baptism.

Reply May 31, 2020
Michael Schisler

Yes. For us today, there is NO WAY around water immersion. Repentance. Confession. NO WAY! Just obey!
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Satan has managed to DECEIVE many and is still deceiving MANY BY FALSE NOTION THAT BAPTISM IS NOT NECESSARY

JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD WITH ALL AUTHORITY BOTH ON EARTH AND HEAVEN COMMANDED BAPTISM AND YOU A sinner says what?

Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

David Okai
The dying thief on the cross hadn’t been baptised, so do you think that means the Lord was mistaken in telling him “Today you will be with me in paradise”?
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Terry Eldridge REPENT immediately !!!
You mean the thief was a Christian??? Shocking

When did Christianity start?
Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

David Okai
By definition the dying thief MUST have been a Christian seeing as he was going to paradise on the basis of his repentance and faith in Christ. Isn’t that how we all get there? Yet as already noted….he wasn’t baptised. So are you saying he wasn’t in fact saved?

Perhaps he should have waited until until Christianity officially started, but he wasn’t really in much of a position to do that!
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Terry Eldridge you need to go back and learn the Bible very well..

The new testament was established on the blood of Jesus Christ

Are you saying the thief died under the New COVENANT?
Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

David Okai
So you’re saying that Christ didn’t have the authority and power to forgive sins during His lifetime – only AFTER His crucifixion?
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Terry Eldridge don’t misquote me.

CHRIST died under the LAW.

The new covenant is base on the blood that was shed.
Jesus Christ commanded this BAPTISM BAPTISM after the resurrection.
Will you be a Christian if Christ had not died?
Reply May 31, 2020
Ellis Gray

Terry Eldridge John. 3. [1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: … [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

He’s talking about Baptism.
Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

David Okai
No, I don’t think I was misquoting you…..

In a sense this isn’t an issue for me because I have been through believers’ baptism, but just supposing I hadn’t – is it your conviction that my failure to do so would have meant I would end up in hell?
Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

Ellis Gray
Actually it’s highly likely He wasn’t.
Reply May 31, 2020
Ellis Gray

Terry Eldridge what was he talking about then? Jesus was baptized and thousands more throughout the New Testament was. So how is it not a requirement?
Reply May 31, 2020
Ellis Gray

I can post every single verse that talks about baptism
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Terry Eldridge were the about 300 people Baptised?
Reply May 31, 2020
Ellis Gray

Acts 2:38 – Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 – And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

John 3:5 – Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 3:21 – The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:16 – He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Romans 6:4 – Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Matthew 28:19 – Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Ephesians 4:5 – One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Romans 6:3-4 – Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Read More…)

Colossians 2:12-13 – Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Read More…)

Acts 2:41 – Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

Galatians 3:27 – For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Matthew 3:16 – And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Matthew 3:11 – I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Ellis Gray I find it difficult seeing people who claim to be Christians YET FIND IT DIFFICULT TO OBEY A SIMPLE COMMAND ie BAPTISM

Let’s pray for them
Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

Ellis Gray
In all likelihood He was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing or renewal. Throughout the Old Testament (Psalm 51:2,7; Ezekiel 36:25) and the New Testament (John 13:10; 15:3; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:22), water is often used figuratively of spiritual cleansing or regeneration that is brought forth by the Holy Spirit, through the Word of God, at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5).
Reply May 31, 2020
Ellis Gray

David Okai amen brother its a dangerous deception that’s being taught in churches now days
Reply May 31, 2020
Ellis Gray

Terry Eldridge Jesus was literally baptized, John the Baptist was literally baptizing people, and the apostles was literally baptizing people. Why is it so difficult to understand?
Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

Ellis Gray
Im sure you can but none of them will prove that baptism is a VITAL component of salvation.
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Terry Eldridge find the Greek word for BAPTISM !!
Reply May 31, 2020
Ellis Gray

Terry Eldridge Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Baptism is required
Reply May 31, 2020
Ellis Gray

All them verses I mentioned above specifically states that it is required
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Terry Eldridge you mean the command of our Lord Jesus Christ has no vital role in our salvation?
Do you now understand Matthew 7:21-25?
Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

Ellis Gray
It isn’t. Are you sure we’re not talking at cross-purposes?

Where have I denied that baptism isn’t biblical? However, if you’re suggesting that baptism is an essential component of salvation and without it we’re not saved, that is an entirely different issue.
Reply May 31, 2020
Terry Eldridge

Ellis Gray
Required or what exactly? Do you consider believers who aren’t baptised lost for eternity?
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Terry Eldridge if it has no vital role why did our Lord Jesus COMMANDED it?

Reply May 31, 2020
Георги Григоровъ

“I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins” – Nicene Creed
Reply May 31, 2020
Kirk Bohn

No

Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Kirk Bohn you mean we should disobey The LORD command according to Matt 28:18-20?
Reply May 31, 2020
Mëheřèešh Jävvadî

Kirk Bohn *Mark 16:16* He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Reply May 31, 2020
Kirk Bohn

David Okai no I’m not saying that, faith in the finished work of Christ is the only way of salvation, baptizim is and obedience following salvation, like commuion.
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Kirk Bohn on what biblical basis did you say NO TO A COMMAND OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST ACCORDING TO MATTHEW 28:18-20, MARK 16:15-16?
Reply May 31, 2020
Kirk Bohn

David Okai I’m not saying no, reread the statement.
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Kirk Bohn that untrue
You said no, REPENT
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

This is your post
Reply May 31, 2020
Kirk Bohn

David Okai Is water baptizim needed to be saved ,No its not
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Kirk Bohn False
Read Mark 16: 15-16
Reply May 31, 2020
Kirk Bohn

David Okai baptized with the Holy Spirit. Did the thief on the cross get baptized?
Reply May 31, 2020
David Okai

Kirk Bohn REPENT NOW FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SIN

DO YOU KNOW WHAT MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO BE A CHRISTIAN?

WAS THE THIEF A CHRISTIAN?
WAS CHRIST CRUCIFIED BY THEN?
WHEN DID JESUS CHRIST GAVE THE COMMAND ON BAPTISM MATTHEW 28:18-20?

Reply May 31, 2020
Herb Van Schoick

Is it a work? Christ alone saves, not us.

Reply May 31, 2020
Mëheřèešh Jävvadî

Herb Van Schoick *Mark 16:16* He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Reply May 31, 2020
John Broussard

Herb Van Schoick
How can baptism be a work? It’s done to you . You can’t baptize yourself.
Reply May 31, 2020
Herb Van Schoick

Mëheřèešh Jävvadî it is a work that is done for you at your request by someone else who cannot save you.
Reply May 31, 2020
Tyler Green

Herb Van Schoick it’s not an act of earning. It’s an act of obedience. Jesus taught baptism in His name in his ministry, and commissioned his disciples to preach the remission of sins and baptism in His name.

Reply January 27, 2023
Anonymous

No. Absolutely not.
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

decided to read all 700+ comments under this discussion post

I think the example with the thief on the cross is solid. More over it was Jesus, not a theologian or a priest, who told the thief he will be saved – no need of water baptism whatsoever Furthermore Randal W Deese is simply wrong in his statement that all theologians demanded water baptism for the first 15 centuries. This is simply not true Not even if you only examine organized religion in the first 15c

Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day The good thief didn’t require water baptism to be saved, had he continued to lice however it would not have been something that could have been ignored. Those who believe are baptized. The good thief didn’t receive a water baptism but he did in some ways receive a baptism by blood or by fire and in his spirit he would have had the desire for baptism after coming to believe. His case is similar to those Christians who came into the faith but faced martyrdom before being baptized.
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

but not water baptism

Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Only mandatory if you want you’re sins remitted…other than that it’s optional.

Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Absolutely not. We can pick the Greek of course but you aint got no point here. Furthermore, either way Jesus said it in Luke 23 43 in Aramaic most certainly does not teach a mandatory water baptism. You have done well to come down on your claim from 1500 to 400 AD but still there are plenty of examples of churches who did not practice water baptism as mandatory – neither for adults nor for children. To put it simply – you can copy past all you want but the Bible is against your claim on this one
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

“And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ” Acts 2:38 [Darby]. {Believe – Baptized – Holy Spirit} “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?” Acts 10 {Believe-Holy Spirit-Baptized}
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day As far as Acts 2:38, the original language demands Jesus name baptism in order to receive remission or forgiveness of sins.
“For the remission” could mean 2 different things in English. “For” can mean “because of” ie. Jump FOR joy, or it can mean “in order to receive.” That’s NOT the case in Greek. For=eis. Eis ALWAYS points forward TOWARD something, it never points backwards. There isn’t a single translation that states “be baptized BECAUSE you have received forgiveness of sins.” Not one. I’ve got 20 translations on my Bible study program. 10 translate eis as “for” which can be ambiguous in the English. The other 10 leave no doubt as to the original Greek meaning.

(ASV) And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ👉 unto the remission of your sins; 👈and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(BBE) And Peter said, Let your hearts be changed, every one of you, and have baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will have the Holy Spirit given to you.
(CEV) Peter said, “Turn back to God! Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, 👉so that your sins will be forgiven. 👈Then you will be given the Holy Spirit.
(EMTV) Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(ERV) Peter said to them, “Change your hearts and lives and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ. 👉Then God will forgive your sins,👈 and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(ESV) And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(GNB) Peter said to them, “Each one of you must turn away from your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, 👉so that your sins will be forgiven;👈 and you will receive God’s gift, the Holy Spirit.
(GW) Peter answered them, “All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ 👉so that your sins will be forgiven.👈 Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.
(ISV) Peter answered them, “Every one of you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.
(KJV) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(KJV+) ThenG1161 PeterG4074 saidG5346 untoG4314 them,G846 Repent,G3340 andG2532 be baptizedG907 every oneG1538 of youG5216 inG1909 theG3588 nameG3686 of JesusG2424 ChristG5547 forG1519 the remissionG859 of sins,G266 andG2532 ye shall receiveG2983 theG3588 giftG1431 of theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost.G4151
(LITV) And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ 👉to remission of sins.👈 And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(MKJV) Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ 👉to remission of sins,👈 and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(NKJV) Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(RV) And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ 👉unto the remission of your sins;👈 and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Spanish RVR60) Pedro les dijo: Arrepentíos, y bautícese cada uno de vosotros en el nombre de Jesucristo 👉para perdón de los pecados; 👈y recibiréis el don del Espíritu Santo.
(TLV) Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be immersed in the name of Messiah Yeshua for the removal of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach ha-Kodesh.
(TPT) Peter replied, “Repent and return to God, and each one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus, the Anointed One, 👉to have your sins removed.👈 Then you may take hold of the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(TS2009) And Kěpha said to them, “Repent, and let each one of you be immersed in the Name of יהושע Messiah for the forgiveness of sins.d And you shall receive the gift of the Set-apart Spirit. Footnote: dAlso see Act_2:40, Act_3:19, Act_3:26.
(WEB) Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(YLT) and Peter said unto them, ‘Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, 👉to remission of sins,👈 and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,

Argue with the TRANSLATORS, not me….

Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Mandatory as in can’t be saved without it? No… but if a Christian rejects baptism I’m going to be suspicious of them, and they should not be admitted to the membership of a local church or the Lords Table but like a new convert who dies before baptism? Nah. Or someone who is physically hindered from being Immersed? No. But ordinarily, to say that Christians must be baptized is most scriptural and just
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

No
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

No!!!
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Yes according to JESUS
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Mathew 3:15 silences any opposotion to THAT ..

Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Isara Mo that verse does not say you have to be baptized

Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Yes, please. Unless we die along with Jesus on the Cross due to our sins while taking immersion baptism and soon after raising up shows for the resurrection for His righteousness to enable us to join with our Lord Jesus Christ forever to obtain real salvation. Amen!
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Yes.

Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

why
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day Our Lord says that we are to be born again of water and the Spirit(John 3:5). Now, what is this “water and Spirit”? At Jesus’ baptism we see “water and Spirit” so that reference refers to baptism. Later, in John 3, we see where Our Lord’s Apostles went out and baptized. In direct answer to your question, we read in Mark 16:16 we read the following,
16 “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
Our Lord explicitly states that baptism is necessary for salvation. The Apostle Peter echoes this same teaching in 1 Pet. 3:21,
21 “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

but if water baptism could save us WHY did JESUS had to die?

Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

God has performed extreme acts of salvation when water baptism wasn’t an option. It wasn’t an option for the thief on the cross.
For example: If a person in the desert were to repent and be filled with the Holy Spirit and wanted to be baptized, but no water was available; and he were to die before reaching water, I believe Jesus saving the thief serves as proof of extreme acts of salvation.
Reply January 28, 2023
Anonymous

no?
Reply January 29, 2023
Anonymous

No.
Saved by grace through faith.

Reply January 30, 2023
Anonymous

Duane L Burgess yes through grace ?

Reply January 29, 2023
Anonymous

no
Reply January 30, 2023
Anonymous

Yes, please. Unless we die along with Jesus on the Cross due to our sins while taking immersion baptism and soon after raising up shows for the resurrection for His righteousness to enable us to join with our Lord Jesus Christ forever to obtain real salvation. Although we were all saved by His grace, Immersion Baptism is a sign of whether he or she is born-again or not to confirm and show the witness to other believers outwardly. Amen!
Reply January 30, 2023
Anonymous

NO?
Reply April 16, 2023
Anonymous

tell us now Skip Pauley https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/what-must-i-do-to-be-saved-a-biblical-evaluation-and-response/
Reply April 16, 2023
Anonymous

Saved by grace through faith, not water.

Reply April 16, 2023
Anonymous

Duane L Burgess how else would you become a baptist ?
Reply April 17, 2023
Anonymous

grace is the covenant. yer not saved by grace you’re saved by a new covenant OF GRACE that gives ya time to work your weaknesses out.

Reply April 16, 2023
Anonymous

But John 3 says John 3:5 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Reply April 16, 2023
Anonymous

Brett Dobbs why would you think like that?
Reply April 16, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day doesn’t this verse entail 2 baptisms? One by the spirit and the other by water.
Reply April 16, 2023
Anonymous

Brett Dobbs but do you really think that would be the case now?
Reply April 16, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day if John 3:16 applies the exact same today, then why wouldn’t John 3:5 apply the exact same way today?
Reply April 16, 2023
Anonymous

Brett Dobbs you can say this of course BUT James Martin Abram Lechuga @Jeffrey Snyder Dan Anthony will NOT believe it

Reply April 16, 2023
Anonymous

HOW so ? Skip Pauley Dan Anthony Jevan Little John Digsby
Reply April 16, 2023
Anonymous

Of course, Immersion in Water Baptism is mandatory for Salvation.

Reply April 16, 2023
Anonymous

Rasiah Thomas ..it is not, proven by the repentant thief on the cross.
Reply April 16, 2023
Anonymous

Rasiah Thomas ..if you were unsaved, in a plane that the pilot had just announced was going to crash land, and you repented, was forgiven of your previously committed sins, died without water baptism, would you go to hell.??????…”NO”…
Reply April 17, 2023
Anonymous

Skip Pauley I do agree with Brother-in-Christ. However, where there is water we have to oblige like Jesus, and where Philip has given the water baptism.
Reply April 17, 2023
Anonymous

A superb situation like how our Lord Jesus Christ saved the thief at the eleventh hour.

Reply April 17, 2023
Anonymous

No, the Apostle Paul writes, “Washing her in the water in the word.” Suggesting “water” is a metaphors for baptism in the word.
Reply April 21, 2023
Anonymous

Water baptism is commanded by Christ himself. It pictures the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. Peter said, repent and be baptized “every one of you.” It should be done with a great sense of urgency. “Flee from the wrath to come!” “Why tarriest thou? Rise and be baptized washing away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” Paul thought it so urgent that he baptized his jailer the same hour of the night.

It is true that a man is saved by grace through faith not by works. Baptism is never discribed in scripture as a work of the law but rather as an expression of faith. It cannot in itself earn salvation. What could hinder the Ethopian from being baptized? He must first have believed with all of his heart.
Reply April 21, 2023
Anonymous

Saved by grace through faith, not water.
Reply August 20, 2023
Anonymous

Some of these articles gets cut off when through the app on my phone. So I have no idea what it says.

But no, water baptism isn’t necessary for the salvation of the soul.
Reply August 20, 2023
Anonymous

Yes. It is necessary but Our Lord can work outside the Sacraments as He did with the thief.

Reply August 20, 2023
Anonymous

Tony Schneider why? Duane L Burgess

Reply August 20, 2023
Anonymous

No.
Saved by grace through faith, not water.
Do not be deceived by empty ritual.

Reply August 20, 2023
Anonymous

NOT to sure about this one Duane L Burgess perhaps Link Hudson can bring his classical Greek A-reading perspective on the very Biblical term baptizomai in order to be entertained further exegetically by John Mushenhouse

Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1991878767863735&set=p.1991878767863735&type=3

Reply November 19, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day – That’s an awesome quote! I’m gonna share it on my personal Facebook page. 👍
Reply November 19, 2023
Anonymous

Ben Bottke of course you are – how nice of you indeed !!!

Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Question for my Dispensationalist? Did water baptism ever save and then it didn’t anymore. For example did water baptism save before the gospel went out to the gentiles?

Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

I am no Dispensationalist so Oscar Valdez will have to answer this one
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day you may be the only pre tribulationist non dispensationalist that I know.
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day
Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=7279465592087755&set=p.7279465592087755&type=3
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Oscar Valdez DTS again ?
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Brett Dobbs Water baptism has never saved. As Jesus told Nicodemus, we must be born from above.
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day Do you know any better form of DISPEN…?
Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Duane L Burgess so it wasn’t faith plus works before the gentiles?
Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

Oscar Valdez I know ANY Baptist form is NO better form #over
Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

Brett Dobbs not @ all Duane L Burgess NOT since AbrahamS covenant
FAITH ALONE Kyle Williams knows better than this
Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day Duane L Burgess I’m sincerely asking because I’ve been told that when the church first started that it was faith plus works. Then when the gentiles came in, it became faith alone.(the age of grace). And then after the pre tribulation rapture, it will become faith plus works again because the age of grace will have ended.

So that is why I’m asking.
Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day
Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=7282475535120094&set=p.7282475535120094&type=3
Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

Oscar Valdez dont read DTS #sorry maybe Ben Bottke or Philip Williams
Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day pentecostals don’t teach DISPEN correctly, they are stuck in Scofield’s dispensationalism, especially pentecostals scholars do this in purpose to adopt amillennialism, or postmill
Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

Oscar Valdez pentecostals don’t teach DISPEN and never have It has been imposed on Pentecostal eschatology in a very very ugly way Now months later you prove my point that you are basically baptist in your eschatology and from there in your pneumatology ThatS it
Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

Brett Dobbs you are sincerely asking because you’ve been told – tell me another one! Like you were told from your Joel friend stuff…
Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day no I told in a conversation on here the other day.
Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

Brett Dobbs been told OR told? These 2 dont seem to be the same
Reply November 16, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day sorry. I was told
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Brett Dobbs you were told is a legal term for hearsay which is not accepted in court as testimony and could be heresy in theology – neverBtold
Reply November 17, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day I was told something, it came from a dispensational point of view. That’s why I was asking, if any others agreed.

Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Absolutely not.
We are saved by grace through faith, not water.

Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Duane L Burgess Our Lord and the Apostle Peter disagree with you(Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21).

Reply November 15, 2023
Anonymous

Yes it is necessary. Scripture teaches it and Christians have always taught that it was necessary for salvation.
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

where were you baptized in water? Link Hudson in the holy water of ganga river? or in the Noah flood which took Philip Williams on a trip to Turkey?

Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day in a creek in McDowell.County NC by a pastor of a Full Gospel church.

In the Spring. I remember the water was cold. No heated baptismal pool.
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Link Hudson this is beautiful – just lovely
sounds like a good Baptist church if they
since they baptized in running water only
Reply November 18, 2023
Anonymous

Troy Day Never heard of Baptists baptising only in running water. I thought a lot of them had baptistries. Maybe you are confusing them with the Didache.

I went to a Full Gospel Church, and they didn’t have a baptistry and used local creeks for baptism
Reply November 19, 2023
Anonymous

Philip Williams got sprinkled in the shower – thatS it

Reply November 19, 2023
Anonymous

from what you said Link Hudson you know about The Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, an anonymous book of 16 short chapters, is probably the earliest known written instructions, outside of the Bible, for administering baptism. The first version of it was written c. 60–80 AD about as much as anything else theology Bible related. Its instructions on baptism are as follows:

Now about baptism: this is how to baptize. Give public instruction on all these points, and then baptize in running water, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit… If you do not have running water, baptize in some other. If you cannot in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, then pour water on the head three times in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Before the baptism, moreover, the one who baptizes and the one being baptized must fast, and any others who can. And you must tell the one being baptized to fast for one or two days beforehand
Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

Yes.

Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

why?
Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

Troy Day one must be reborn of water and the Spirit. We also have the testimony of the Church Fathers and what they believed concerning the matter.

Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

Baptism is not necessary for salvation. Baptism does not save from sin but from a bad conscience. In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter clearly taught that baptism was not a ceremonial act of physical purification, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is the symbol of what has already occurred in the heart and life of one who has trusted Christ as Savior (Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12). Baptism is an important step of obedience that every Christian should take. Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation. To make it such is an attack on the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

Baptism is the normative manner in which we express that we have believed and put our faith in Jesus. It’s not optional, but it’s not magical; it’s normative. If a person has truly placed their faith in Jesus, they will… If they refuse to be baptized, then their faith doesn’t seem to be genuine. A heart made alive by the Holy Spirit desires to follow Jesus.
Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

Is following the Scripture necessary for salvation?
Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

Is baptism salvation? No.. should a person be baptized? Yes. Baptism without repentance is just a dip in the pool..
Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

Jesus commands baptism. Jesus is Lord. Obey Jesus.
Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

For those saying yes…..I’m confused……because Acts 2:38 says “repent and be baptized” and isn’t “repentance” how we are saved? Because if baptism is mandatory for salvation, then all those Catholic babies should be good

Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

Billy Winneroski as long as they are babies , before they know to refuse the evil and choose the good
Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

Gary Edgar my point is that if baptism is mandatory for salvation, then Catholics have it right (and I don’t believe that)
Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

Billy Winneroski I don’t believe baptism alone saves,Jesus gave Peter the keys ,note keys , and he delivered those keys in Acts 2:38 , Matthew 16:19 reference; repent and be baptized
Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

Gary Edgar I think you and I are on the same page but I was arguing against the notion that baptism is mandatory for salvation
Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

Jesus was baptized so I should follow him ; I know it is deeper than that, I mean following him, Romans 15:4
Reply January 22, 2024
Anonymous

Billy Winneroski why would you be confused?
Reply January 22, 2024
Anonymous

Troy Day because as I said in my initial comment, “repentance” is how one gets saved….not baptism in water! Because if baptism was what saved us, then we’d do that before repentance
Reply January 22, 2024
Anonymous

Billy Winneroski “repentance” is how one gets saved….not baptism in water! is correct and Duane L Burgess agrees NOT sure about Gary Edgar and Gary Micheal Epping
Reply January 22, 2024
Anonymous

Example 2 Chronicles 7:14
Reply January 22, 2024
Anonymous

Billy Winneroski We are saved by grace through faith, not water.
Those answering “yes” are the ones who are confused.
And infant baptism is nowhere taught in Scripture.
Reply January 22, 2024
Anonymous

Duane L Burgess again I agree! I guess I was just more shocked that this would even be a question in a pentecostal context

Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

No but it is for the baptism of the Holy Ghost

Reply January 25, 2024
Anonymous

Junior Beasley can you show me, biblically, where Holy Ghost baptism is “mandatory” for salvation
Reply January 25, 2024
Anonymous

Billy Winneroski
Read my reply I did not say it was
Reply January 25, 2024
Anonymous

Junior Beasley ohhh I read it wrong sorry brother
Reply January 25, 2024
Anonymous

Billy Winneroski
No problem.
I do it to lol

Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

No.
Paul never mentioned it on Mars Hill.

Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

Duane L Burgess repentance comes first then baptism he was trying to get them to repent from their idol worship

Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

No
Reply January 21, 2024
Anonymous

Then why was Jesus baptized in Matthew 3:16-17 ; this agrees with Acts 2:38 ; be baptized and receive Holy Ghost , baptism does not save but shows repentance and crucifies the flesh for if we are baptized into Jesus Christ we are baptized into his death for those that are Christ have crucified the flesh and affections there of
Reply January 22, 2024
Anonymous

No.
Reply January 22, 2024
Anonymous

Yes

Reply January 23, 2024
Anonymous

Michael Womack some say it is Junior Beasley Fred Leon Stewart
Reply January 23, 2024
Anonymous

Troy Day
No, it’s not required it is good for obedience to the word and faithfulness to christ but my many years in ministry and as a prison Chaplin I’ve seen many saved and go to the Lord who could not be baptised.
I’ve set with those who were dying and confessed Christ and seen their beautiful departure and reassurance from the Lord that they went to Heaven always knowing that them who are first will be last and them who are often last have been first. Glory be to God for his mercy and grace through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Reply January 23, 2024
Anonymous

Junior Beasley lots of ppl in the BIBLE got water baptism
Reply January 23, 2024
Anonymous

Troy Day and what about the guards who upon conversion at St Paul’s execution, thank they made it?
Reply January 23, 2024
Anonymous

Junior Beasley JESUS said go baptize them in Jesus name !!!
Reply January 23, 2024
Anonymous

Troy Day so you believe unless someone is baptized they can’t make heaven. Lol
Reply January 23, 2024
Anonymous

Junior Beasley well JESUS said to baptize NOT ppl
Reply January 23, 2024
Anonymous

Troy Day good morning my brother, I did a study on the phrases the Hebrew used several years ago. We may call someone a Karen which means an older, rude, entitled lady. Or we may “Deader than a door nail ” to describe something that is useless. There are other phrases we use but they escape me at this time..Anyhow the Jewish people had three main phrases they used to describe a safe or happy condition..One was Abraham’s bosom and the other was the word Paradise..Neither used in context is a place but a condition. When Jesus told the theif on the cross To Day you will be with me in paradise, he was telling the theif when you die today you will be in a safe condition. We know people don’t go straight to heaven when they die but await a ressurection.. I’m not sure if we must be baptized to make 3rd heaven but I’m sure we don’t need to be baptized to be in a safe condition with Christ..
Reply January 23, 2024
Anonymous

yall can see Michael Womack stated otherwise …

Reply January 23, 2024
Anonymous

Ask the thief on the cross.

Reply January 23, 2024
Anonymous

Brian D. Cowart what says he?
Reply January 25, 2024
Anonymous

Brian D. Cowart the their on the cross was before the Holy Ghost was poured out in Acts chapter 2 Gods grace saved him his mercy endures forever
Reply January 26, 2024
Anonymous

Brian D. Cowart that was before the Holy Ghost was poured out on Pentecost
Reply January 26, 2024
Anonymous

Gary Edgar . I agree that it was before the Holy Ghost was poured out in Acts ch 2. I agree that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. I believe the thief on the cross demonstrates that.
Eph 2:8-9 for by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Not by baptism.

Romans 10:9 that if thy shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

I believe baptism is required of all believers but I do not believe that baptism saves the sinner, Gods grace and our faith in Jesus Christ is what saves us.

Troy Day , I don’t know exactly what he would say. I’d like to ask him when I see him. I believe the thief may say something along the lines of -I don’t know anything about baptism, all I know is that while I was dying as a criminal on a cross beside Jesus , I was saved by Gods grace and Jesus told me I would be with him in paradise that day.
Of course this is strictly speculation as to what he might say when asked.

Blessings to you both
Reply January 26, 2024
Anonymous

Bible says his mercy is never ending so dead bed salvation maybe possible , but I would not bet my soul on it , for he that Knoweth to do good and doeth it not it is sin ?🤷‍♂️today is the day of salvation
Reply January 26, 2024
Anonymous

Gary Edgar I would not want to chance a death bed confession myself either. I have seen them happen before.
My grandfather was in a nursing home and his health was rapidly declining . He got saved two weeks before he died. I’m thankful and happy that he put his trust and faith in Jesus. I’ll see him again one day.

Today is truly the day of salvation. I don’t know why some people wait so long.

Blessings to you.
Reply January 26, 2024
Anonymous

Brian D. Cowart 🙏🙏👍
Reply January 27, 2024
Anonymous

Gary Edgar Bible says his mercy is never ending so
Reply January 27, 2024
Anonymous

If you humble yourself and pray ,seek his face , turn from wickedness , he will hear from heaven he will forgive your sin and heal your land; only one example of his mercy

Reply January 25, 2024
Anonymous

No. But a true regenerate believer will desire to be baptized.
Reply January 26, 2024
Anonymous

Yes indeed.

Reply January 26, 2024
Anonymous

yes indeed what?
Reply January 26, 2024
Anonymous

Troy Day It is a must, please.
Reply January 26, 2024
Anonymous

go get it then 🙂

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