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Brody Pope | PentecostalTheology.com
I’d like to start a discussion. Please answer the following question:
Is it possible to be dispensationalist and Pentecostal?
Ed Brewer
yes, but why would you? dispensationalism is, at it’s root, a precise violation of Proverbs 3:5 – no matter how hard man has tried through the millennia, God simply won’t fit in a man-made box
Varnel Watson
NO – true Pentecostals believe the Holy Spirit was active on earth through every period / era/ dispensation – not just during grace dispensation
Casey Fleet
What else are Pentecostals supposed to be?
Varnel Watson
Brody Pope Dispensationalists do not believe in transcending Most of them are plain cessationists
Casey Fleet
This is a confusing question to me because I always believed most Pentecostals were dispensational
Dan Irving
They conflict, profoundly, and on many levels. This is why I’ve never understood why Pentecostals followed after Scofield like they did.
Casey Fleet
Brody Pope this really is a great question
Varnel Watson
We’ve discussed this many times before. Pr-Trib position does not dispensational validation. Pentecostals do not limit the Holy Ghost to one period / era dispensation
Dan Irving
Troy Day, Have you had opportunity to view my last video on this subject?
Varnel Watson
The one we waited for or previous one? Give us the scoop?
Casey Fleet
Troy does dispensational theology have to limit the Holy Ghost to one era?
Dan Irving
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3RrXengdeE
Jerrod Buffington
If you get filled with the Holy Spirit hopefully you will be lead out of dispensationalism
Varnel Watson
Dan Irving seems like a strong video against pre-wrath Ricky
Dan Irving
“Pre-Wrath?” You mean Chris White’s teaching?
Varnel Watson
and Ricky Grimsley too – it was in the video I saw ? Dan Irving
Robert Borders
Sam Storms has claimed to be such.
Ya Aqov Ben Yisrael
Both non biblical!
Varnel Watson
Robert Borders Sam Storms is which one or both?
Grover Katzmarek Sr
I don’t believe one can be dispensalist and a Christian. If one believes in dispensationalism they are deceived, blinded to Christs own teaching.
Varnel Watson
Grover Katzmarek Sr http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
Gary Stacey
Many have been. It is typically associated with Calvinism. Taken to extremes, it suggests God tried something, it didn’t work, so He tried something else…
Varnel Watson
Gary Stacey what is typically associated with Calvinism?
Gary Stacey
The thread began with Dispensationalism.
Varnel Watson
Dont think so Gary Calvinists are namely against it Here we go Brody Pope https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QccFk7f56mM&feature=youtu.be
Emanuel Rodriguez
I don’t believe dispensationalists limit the Holy Spirit to a specific dispensation.
I do believe in the Trinitarian God and that all members are active at all times throughout all ages.
Here’s where it becomes tricky with dispensationalist eschatology (concerning the end times), many dispies hold that the Holy Spirit will not be present during the time of the “left behind”
Varnel Watson
Leon Bible This is another good topic. How could dispensations be reconciled with Pentecostal pneumatology believing that the Holy Spirit is present in all epoch of human history?
Leon Bible
From the beginning when the Holy Spirit moved on the face of the waters…He has always been present. So why would you think He has not?
Varnel Watson
Dispensationalism calls for the Holy Spirit to be active only in one dispensation and removed from earth at the Rapture – how can you reconcile this with the theological framework of Pentecostal pneumatology ?
Leon Bible
Troy Day What dispensation is the Holy Spirit ONLY active in?
Varnel Watson
Are you not familiar with dispensations? I for one dont believe the Holy Spirit is constrained by human dispensations
Leon Bible
Troy Day Hey Troy above you made a statement: “Dispensationalism calls for the Holy Spirit to be active only in one dispensation” So my question was which dispensation is the Holy Spirit ONLY active in? Which of the 9 dispensations are you referring to?
Varnel Watson
Leon Bible In his 1919 first print Clarence Larkin who introduced dispensations to Pentecostalims (not Scoffield or Dake as wrongly asserted) defined it between Pentecost and the Rapture. It is a well known definition, which virtually every Bible scholar with some college education should know. No need to redefine it here…
Leon Bible
Well could you please answer this question? Above you said: “defined it between Pentecost and the Rapture.” Defined WHAT between Pentecost and the Rapture?
Leon Bible
Hey Troy Day got any response to my post above?
Varnel Watson
the question is NOT easily answered Michael Ellis Carter Jr. especially when the term is replaced by ages Steve Forsberg when you said
basic understanding of Evangelical hermeneutics
do you eXclude all early Pentecostals as well as AG which the brother mentioned In other words are you forcing some liberal reformed philosophy as evangelical theology http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/times-seasons-eternal-past-eternal-future-and-dispensations/
Steve Forsberg
My preferred interpretation is authorial intent. What message did the author intend for the reader.
William Seymour did use allegorical interpretations. In some strains of Pentecostalism allegorical meanings, types and shadows are used. I avoid that. For me, the plain, straight forward meaning in the original culture is better than hidden or coded meanings.
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Troy Day I have no issues with the idea of dispensations when broken down across the Bible. However you Can’t say that most of us are influenced by Jesuit teaching and are not aware of it and then use Early church fathers who are venerated to make your point. I think my bigger issue is that the seven ages has no room for what’s next. More importantly I fee like it’s the seed of other false doctrines. We can accept either 8, 7, 4, or 3 dispensations without compromising are beliefs especially if we are using scripture to do it.
Steve Forsberg
Darby, including Schofield, did not allow for the spiritual gifts in this age or dispensation. The original dispensationalism does not allow for Pentecostalism.
Varnel Watson
Michael Ellis Carter Jr. I dont think dispensation-ism is Pentecostal BUT I also believe Steve Forsberg is wrong when assigning the teaching to Darby or Scofield as they took it from previous writings Also, he should read the post where we showed that DAKE’s dispensations in the video above and his use of the term was NOT what Darby or Scofield or any baptist from DTS has been teaching till now
JameyJoy Doss
I have an original Clarence Larkin Dispensations book. It’s pretty cool but very in-depth. I am afraid that as young as Pentecostalism especially the theology of Pentecostalism is still too young to determine exactly this or that as defined by being tried by time.
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
JameyJoy Doss yeah and the brother who my first post was about is a big Clarence Larkin’s fan. Troy Day I’m not sure if dispensations are a Pentecostal doctrine or not but I learned it in a Pentecostal denomination. It just did not look like Larkins and Branham. The bigger Thing is I don’t think it will put you in hell either way.
Steve Forsberg
you guys remind me of myself 30 or 40 years ago. I have a Dake Study Bible, 3 or 4 of Dakes books, and Larkin’s book. Those are relatively inexpensive books that are readily available.
I believe advocates of dispensationalism have expansive imaginations fitting theories into the Bible rather than developing theology out of the Bible. But did not understand this until I wrote a bunch of term papers.
JameyJoy Doss
Steve Forsberg Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Pentecostals are the dump from every other faith when it comes to Theology. Baptist, Methodist, Calvinist/Arminians, we are still yet finding our way.
Steve Forsberg
There are many amazing Pentecostal scholars writing nowadays. The quality of Pentecostal scholarship is rapidly increasing. I found this article online. I would add Wolfgang Vondey and Roger Stronstad. Plus there are many up and coming Pentecostal scholars.
https://www.seedbed.com/pentecostal-scholars/
Steve Forsberg
here is a list of online Pentecostal journals. Scholars at work…
https://rickwadholmjr.wordpress.com/online-pentecostal-academic-journals/
JameyJoy Doss
Steve Forsberg Thanks
Varnel Watson
Steve Forsberg if you care to search our archive you will find out fast both of these were taken straight from us Our discussion was called Top 20 Top 10 and then Top 3 Pentecostal scholars The seedbed brother disregarded some of the MOST respective Pentecostal scholars of all times altering our good list in favor of his favorites Bro Rick was part of this group when we helped him formed his journal list before he underwent into a theological astray somewhere
Steve Forsberg
Brother Rick is NOT astray. I am not sure how to learn discernment on scholarship without formal education. There has always been a strain of Pentecostalism that opposes education and this is unfortunate.
Varnel Watson
Steve Forsberg you cannot LEARN without EDUCATION 🙂 Ask him his stand on sanctification without which no one will ever see GOD and you will see Melvin Harter called it long time ago but no one is here to listen and learn anymore
Steve Forsberg
i respect good scholarship. I might not agree with it. That explains why we have so many denominations.
I do not think highly of eisegesis. Pentecostalism is rampant in eisegesis including dispensationalism, some spiritual warfare concepts, generational curses, some latter rain junk, some deliverance ministry, some word of faith stuff, etc. Book stores have lots of readily available and relatively inexpensive “Pentecostal” books full of poor scholarship.
People learn to respect good scholarship by reading and understanding it. If a person is heavily indoctrinated in poor scholarship, it can be a painful experience to come out of it,
JameyJoy Doss
Steve Forsberg I agree
Varnel Watson
JameyJoy Doss just to respond to the liberal comment by Steve Forsberg I also own after much search Larkin’s original 1919 first print of his Revelation commentary It is VERY expensive and I know of only a few private owners who still have it
BUT Larkin is NOT the earlier source I was speaking of I was speaking about Knox Fox Newton Clarke Finney George Mueller Treanch Keil Alford Ellicott and many others who before Larkin all the way to Euphem of Syria and Clement of Rome who claimed the CHURCH is taken BEFORE the rapture as most church fathers believed back then
Then as per splitting history med. monk Joachim Fiore first split it in 3 ages There is so many one cannot count here
as to DAKE our brother should read as I already recommended the very insightful comment by Donald W. Dayton
All through except they say not Dake or Scofield but Larkin first introduced Dake came in the 60s Larkin was right then 1919 and so on
As Dr. Donald W. Dayton have pointed out in our discussions before
” They are two unrelated uses of the word dispensational. One can be a Dispensationalist (in the Darby/Dake sense and a cessationist or not. Similarly one can be a cessationist (for example Warfield) and not a dispensationalist in the Scofield Bible sense. This confused use of the word dispensationalist causes problems for many people.
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they are apparently dispensationalists in both meanings of the word. Some pentecostals are dispensationalists in the Scofield bible sense, others are not. In my book THEOLOGICAL ROOTS OF PENTECOSTALISM I have some discussion of these questions. Part of the issue is the assumptions that one brings to the bible. For example, are the historical events in the NT models of the spiritual experience of every Christian or are they events that establish the church but need not be repeated. That is, since Pentecost the Christian receives the HS at conversion. There can be a biblical argument about this, but that argument cannot be definitive because part of the issue is the assumptions that one brings to the bible. Of the early founders of Methodism, for example, John Wesley believed that since Pentecost believers received the HS at conversion. His buddy John Fletcher believed that the two experiences of the NT (the call to discipleship and the reception of the Holy Spirit at Pentecosr) are a pattern for all Christians. I think Wesley is more correct than Fletcher.”
Varnel Watson
I think Ed Brewer is wrong considering Branham in this discussion as rascal thought he was the messenger to the Laodicean ‘church age’ Branham preached at the Mayfield school right behind the North Cleveland flagship church of his denomination and with many of the members started a church nearby – not a cult
Ed Brewer
Troy Day ….agree to disagree – and please reflect my whole point if you refer to it in another context like this… I never said he started a cult – only that some of his followers effectively doubled down on some of his errant teaching and became cult-like in defense of their contrived beliefs – like many who try to overlay the newspaper over the Word, he got an awful lot of stuff demonstrably wrong, and left others to clean up the mess (we’re about 43 years after the church age was supposed to end, we’re not being ferried about in autonomous glass bebubbled cars, and communism and the RC church look far different today than he predicted – and the list goes on). Prophecy withstands the scrutiny of time – sensationalism, though hard to discern in the moment, dies of it’s own fallacious weight in short order.
Varnel Watson
Ed Brewer I dont know your whole point You never engage in a holistic discussion in this group All we see is theological smirks that reflect on unclear theological position Pls tell us your whole point if and I personally would be MORE than happy to engage it in a theological discussion
William DeArteaga
It is possible if you are tremendously attached to traditional theology, and a moderate amount of stupidity.
Steve Forsberg
pejorative remarks are not needed.
Varnel Watson
Steve Forsberg I take yours only as loving ones 🙂
RichardAnna Boyce
is it possible to be Biblical and not a dispensationalist?
Kyle Williams
I’m gonna say no. Wouldn’t that make a person a cessationist?
Varnel Watson
TRUE but RichardAnna Boyce somehow is and Ana-Maria Plus Michael is also leaning toward post mil
Kyle Williams
Can you be post mil and Pentecostal?
Varnel Watson
Kyle Williams NO – at least not EARLY Pentecostal You could be a post-modernity Bapticostal who maybe speaks in tongues once in a blood moon tells stories at a round coffee table instead of preaching the fire out of NIV in an old wooden pulpit ; never uses anointing oil on seekers because it could get on their gayish silk shirts on a hot summer day AND asks the person who operates the gifts on Sunday morning under the HS utterance to please come and do that in the more appropriate Fri night gathering at undisclosed location Peter Vandever Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Kyle Williams
Troy Day well I was just checking ? great awnser tho and a loud amen!
Varnel Watson
Kyle Williams Unsanctified people should not talk about entire sanctification experience like they’ve been there done that and got the t-shirt
Kyle Williams
Troy Day theres a guy around here who runs what he terms a Bapicostal church, he speaks in tounges sees people “Slain in th e Spirit ” but preaches an other wise Baptist doctrine (OSAS, dispensational teaching. Maybe a two point calvinist). Seems like some just never get off the fence.
Varnel Watson
Kyle Williams you got to have a triple split personality theology to combine ALL this in ONE sermon Noone has ever done it in one single sermon time
Kyle Williams
Troy Day well I believe hes a retired Baptist preacher.. so I’m not sure if it’s bad theology or dementia the bad part is it’s not all in one sermon. One sermon on Spirit baptisim then the next is on eternal security..
Varnel Watson
Kyle Williams you must be still in Kansas Peter Vandever is not in Kansas anymore 🙂
Kyle Williams
Peter Vandever are you still in KC?
Ana-Maria Plus Michael
Troy Day I’m not postmil. I’m actually trying to oppose that. What I’m seeing (and we had a disagreement about this once) is that many Pentecostals are covertly turning amil and postmil.
I do not like the stupid triumphalistic nonsense about transforming society, politics, world BEFORE Christ’s second coming. I’m absolutely a fan of classical Pentecostal fiery preaching, although I have no opinion on translation since English is my second language. I just don’t care if it’s NIV or whatever.
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Troy Day i think it’s possible… less we forget the early Pentecostals in many settings were Baptist and other denominations at conversions. Some of them didn’t change their theology with their tongue experience. We can’t look backwards with revisionist history
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day That was quite a run on sentence. It sounds like you listed a lot of external religious behavior falsely defining spirituality-but funny.
It is amazing how easy it is for spiritual people to become legalistic.
Joshua Tesillo
No
Anonymous
Yes, but Pentecostal theology has numerous problems.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess how so —- please go into detail and not just opinion.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess dispensationalism is NOT Pentecostal or Charismatic
Anonymous
Troy Day Would Stanley Horton Agree with him? Oscar Valdez
Anonymous
Jose Salinas Horton was not entirely sanctified Peter Vandever neither
Anonymous
Yes, but not a Mid-Acts Dispensationalism (AKA Hyper-Dispensationalism)
Most Pentecostals affirm classic dispensationalism. (Seven Biblical Dispensations)
1. The Dispensation of Innocence (Genesis 1:26-2:8)
2. The Dispensation of Conscience (Genesis 2:9-3:19)
3. The Dispensation of Human Government (Genesis 4:7-11; 5:1-32; 6:1-4)
4. The Dispensation of Promise (Genesis 6:5-22; 9:8-17)
5. The Dispensation of Law (Exodus 20:1-17)
6. The Dispensation of Grace (Acts 2; Ephesians 3)
7. The Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20)
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey Hyper-Dispensationalism is the progresso one Oscar Valdez upholds Perhaps a few more DTS book will clarify it more
Anonymous
The Assemblies of God hold to dispensational theology so yes
Anonymous
Jose Salinas which type of dispensational theology ? Do we believe the Holy Spirit was active in ONLY ONE dispensation? – then NO Oscar Valdez
Anonymous
Troy Day Some hold to a more moderate dispensation or progressive which I think is more accurate for the Classical Pentecostal position. Oscar Valdez and I advocate for this type.
Anonymous
110%
Anonymous
Oscar Valdez that may be 100% baptist and 10% Pentecostal that is