is Free Will a LIE?

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Ricky Grimsley Well if free-will is a lie then we cant help it if we dont believe you. Lol

Peter Christian Unbelief is a sin.

Nelson Banuchi Not if God wills someone to be unbelieving.

Hunter McLain If free will is a lie, then how could it be a sin to not believe? If you don’t have free will it wasn’t up to you in the first place.

Peter Christian God know what you would do and created you anyway. Could you have changed anything He declared?

Nelson Banuchi That God foreknows does not necessarily mean it was God’s will. Jer 7:31.

Brian Roden http://biblethumpingwingnut.com/semper-reformanda-radio/

Hunter McLain Then why bother. I guess it’s all determined who will be saved so I can go sit at home. Why bother trying if you can’t do anything.

Ricky Grimsley Calvinism is a wrong. Free-will was the purpose of creation.

Brody Pope Then I reckon you and Free-will are in the same category.

Peter Christian Free will was the purpose of creation yet God’s will is alwayyssssss DONE.

Billy Monroe Poff Well if that was the purpose of creation, and He gave it to man at the beginning, at what point did He change His mind and take it away?

Nelson Banuchi Peter Christian, unless you’re suggesting it was God’s will for Adam to sin, for children to be raped, no; God’s will is not always accomplished.

Ricky Grimsley Lol Gods will is not always done. He is not willing that any should perish but they do. He wants all to come to repentance but they dont.

Peter Christian You just ripped that text waaayyyy out of context man.

Peter Christian Go through the bible from beginning to end and show me where God’s will was not done

Nelson Banuchi Jeremiah 7:31Luke 13:34

Ricky Grimsley Seriously. Have you read about the children of israel….like ever?

Peter Christian Yes i have. have you read the entire bible? like ever?

Ricky Grimsley Ive lost count

Peter Christian and yet you still can’t understand it??? wow

Peter Christian Hey Ricky do you agree to scriptures that everyone is a sinner?

Wahyu Matthew: 23. 37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! – Bible Offline

Ricky Grimsley Jeremiah 32:35 KJVS[35] And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Wahyu I’d be interested in hearing how you think that scripture of Ricky’s is out of context. Seems pretty plain

Peter Christian sure but answer my q first pls

Wahyu Sure yes everyone is a sinner

Wahyu For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God

Peter Christian what does ricky think?

Ricky Grimsley We were all sinners but im not a sinner now.

Peter Christian you’re not a sinner now??

Ricky Grimsley 1 Corinthians 6:11 KJVS[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ricky Grimsley You gonna get me to preachin up in here buddy

Wahyu

Peter Christian uh that has nothing to do with you being perfect sinless now pal

Peter Christian oh u a preacher ricky?

Wahyu Please address scriptures posted so I can learn

Ricky Grimsley We all should be.

Peter Christian would you like to go on a live debate program against me?

Brian Roden Paul always refers to the people in the churches he writes to as saints, their current status in Christ. While they may still battle sin and temptation, their lives are no longer marked by continual, willful sin and rebellion.

Peter Christian I can set us up a google hangouts: topic: FREE WILL for Ricky

Brian Roden Before anyone agrees to a debate with Peter, listen the the debate recordings in the latest episodes from http://biblethumpingwingnut.com/semper-reformanda-radio/

Ricky Grimsley Romans 3:21-24 KJVS[21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Levi Chavis How can Christ be our Savior if we can choose him?

Peter Christian yeah that was me against two closet case arminians

Peter Christian Levi Chavis has a good point. you all would do well to listen to his q.

Peter Christian Brian Roden i am very famous these days just so you know.

Wahyu Can someone please break down the scriptures or are yall going to just keep repeating your belief and looking down on those that disagree

Peter Christian ricky is a perfect dishonest saint so i challenged him for a live debate

Peter Christian Tony do you believe in Christ?

Levi Chavis Romans 9:8-238 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Peter Christian sadly Levi Chavis they will never read that ^^^^^^

Levi Chavis They can try and dance around it but it will still be there tomorrow and every day after that.

Drew Banacos I’ve read the passage. Isn’t it clear that Paul was talking about Israel? I think it’s wrong to assume no one has read this.

On the contrary. Read. Discussed. Explained http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/karl-barth-and-romans…/

Wahyu Again, you said you’d explain the scriptures. Please be a man of integrity

Brody Pope Peter you are doing nothing but trying to cause division amongst the brethren! You post things out of pure spite and out of pure hatred!!! You could care less about discussing the differing doctrines, you just wanna cause trouble! The admins need to address this now!

Timothy Nail This is why I got off this page.

Ricky Grimsley How am i dishonest. Because i have put the righteousness of Christ through faith and dont walk in sin? Do i sin? Sure i do. But i dont walk in sin and stay a sinner.

Peter Christian Tony are you referring to 2Peter 3:9??

Ricky Grimsley I listen to James White everyday. I certainly understand Calvinism. Its just wrong.

Peter Christian james white hmmmm

Peter Christian u like todd white better i guess

Ricky Grimsley I dont know Todd white

Peter Christian you should look him up.. i bet you will fall in love with him.

Ricky Grimsley Lol

Peter Christian anyway… any of you guys up for a live discussion?

Peter Christian google hangouts ….

Wahyu All the ones posted. Please teach

Wahyu I’m so waiting for you too keep your word

Peter Christian why don’t you bring it to the live discussion

Wahyu No reason you couldn’t do it here

Peter Christian it’s not my first dance here pal

Peter Christian it never gets anywhere and my fingers get sore.

Brody Pope Well y’all, nobody uses Google hangouts so that’s probably why he wants to go so bad.

Peter Christian Ricky, for you:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd3qCCtS6rY

Ricky Grimsley Lol ive seen that guy before.

Ricky Grimsley Im listening to the bible thumping wing nut stuff

Wahyu Ridiculous. No integrity

Joe Absher Where is this grace you extol?

Jerome Herrick Weymouth So Calvinism is sneaking into the Pentecostal circles. While I got news for you, we exercise free will, whether you choose to believe it or not. But like I say all you Calvinists have the free will choose not to believe that they have a free will even though God gave them that will to choose not to believe.

Levi Chavis I find it funny how people cherry pick certain scriptures and label them according to different religions. That one is a “Baptist” scripture, that one is a “Oneness” Scripture, That one is a “COG” scripture… since when did God and His Word get categorized according to man’s doctrines??I have news for you, when it comes to salvation in Christ, we do not have a choice of what we will become, it is God’s Perfect will.

Joe Absher The kind of sovereign grace represented here seems more spiteful than holy and reconcilling.

Wahyu Yep no fruit of spirit around

Levi Chavis Tony Conger, when were the Children of God written in the Lamb’s book of life?

Ricky Grimsley Lol

You’ve been challenged Peter Christian

Levi Chavis I asked you a question Troy, 😊

which one -you asked so many

Levi Chavis When were the children of God written in the Lamb’s book of life?

When did you ask me this – I did not see such question

Levi Chavis Well, this question goes with this subject.

how do you see that – I see it as hijacking Peter ‘s topic

Levi Chavis Lol, what is your answer, according to God’s Word?

Hunter McLain Levi, the Children of God’s names are written in the book of Life when you are Saved.

Levi Chavis Try again.

Hunter McLain Try again?

let us hope with this answer Levi was not asking a trick question

Levi Chavis It’s not a trick question, it’s in God’s Word.

Hunter McLain Care to elaborate Levi?

Levi Chavis It’s not hard to find. Look at this as a bible study Q&A., with scriptures.

Hunter McLain So you have no cited Scriptures I see.

Levi Chavis You made the claim that our names were written in the Lamb’s book of life when we were saved, which is inaccurate. I asked a question, please provide scripture with your answer. Thanks in advance. 🙂

So it was a trick question after all 🙂 How shallow

Levi Chavis It wasn’t a trick question. It was simply an incorrect answer.

Levi Chavis Why don’t you help him out Troy.

Here’s the counter question Levi Can a Christian be erased from the Lamb’s book of life?

Levi Chavis Absolutely not.

Drew Banacos He’s assuming that the names have always been written there. I don’t understand why Calvinists take a metaphor in Scripture and rip it out of context to apply it to Calvinism.

He is assuming humpty dupmty was an egg

Levi Chavis Revelation 3:55 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.Revelation 13:88 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Rico Hero Hello Levi Chavis”The one who is victorious will, like them be dressed in white” (Rev.3:5 a)This implies free will, for one needs free will to “overcome” or be “victorious”” Remember therefore how you have received and heard;hold fast and repent. Therefore IF YOU WILL NOT watch, I will come upon you as a thief,..( Rev 3:3)The fact a choice was given ” if you will not” proves free will.” He who overcomes shall be clothed in white in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life….( Rev 3:5 NKJV)Note:Here Christ promises not to blot the name out of the book of life of any man who will obey the commands of Rev. 3:2-3. If some refused to obey these commands, would their names not be blotted out? If we say such is impossible we accuse God of using vain threats on His people. He definitely promised Moses, “Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of my book” (Ex. 32:32-33). The psalmist by the Holy Spirit prayed that God would blot out the names of Judas and all like him (Ps. 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20). In Rev. 22:18-19 Christ again threatens to take the names of people out of the Book of Life if they take anything away from the words of the book of this prophecy.

Levi Chavis I went ahead and posted the scripture for you. I guess you were having trouble finding it. 😊

Drew Banacos Calvinism is the opium of the people. Numbs them into thinking God is the cause for every evil thing so they should be grateful and it justifies their apathy.

Levi Chavis Scriptures help when you make vague comments. 😉

Levi Chavis Philippians 2:13 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Drew Banacos That passage doesn’t tell me I have to be a Calvinist. All it says is that God is at work in me.

Levi Chavis Whoever said anything about being a Calvinist? That’s the Word of God.

Drew Banacos That’s your interpretation of the Bible. Not to be equated with the Word of God.

Peter Christian Drew Banacoshttps://youtu.be/osJjRYOtsdo

Levi Chavis Drew Banacos, it is copied and pasted. Not my words, God’s Word, which is perfect.

Drew Banacos Levi Chavis, this really isn’t an argument. You are merely proof-texting. All this passage says is that God is working in us as Christians to fulfill his purpose. You assume by this that we do not have the freedom to thwart this purpose. He might work in me to will and act in certain ways but this doesn’t mean it is forced.

Levi Chavis Romans 9:8-238 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,😉

Drew Banacos Ok you’re just posting Scripture. I know the Bible but not everyone interprets it the way you do. I’m starting to think you’re doing this on purpose.

Levi Chavis Drew Banacos, lol, interpret? It’s right there black and white. I don’t give opinions, only scripture.

Drew His spell checker went wrong. He meant to type Free Will is a LIfE

Drew Banacos Levi, please enlighten us. perhaps i’m too dumb to understand the plain meaning of the text.

Free Will is a LIFE makes a lot of sense to me Levi on my screen seems to be black on a bluish / grayish background not black on white

Levi Chavis Troy, you’ve been listening to man’s doctrines. If you can choose your salvation, you don’t need a Savior. After all, why do you need saving?

would it make a difference if humpty dumpty was a calvinistic egg?

Drew Banacos Levi Chavis That’s a philosophical argument. Please tell me how you aren’t using a man’s doctrine from the 1500s.

Humpty dumpty theology was 1877 – much more modernistic

Drew Banacos I can tell you, the only people who denied free will in the earliest centuries of the Church were Gnostics.

Levi Chavis That’s right, when you don’t have an answer to fit your “free will” fable, you use nursery rhymes. 2 Corinthians 4:33 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:With all sincerity, I will be praying for you guys.

Drew Banacos Are you praying that we would not be predestined to believe in free will?

Drew Banacos I sincerely raise these questions because I believe Calvinism (or what you would call “what the Bible actually says”; I disagree) is damaging, it has no ethical system that speaks to liberating the oppressed (as evident that Calvinists were the ones who opposed the abolitionist movement), it causes people to question whether God has chosen them or not, it causes people to believe that God caused or “allowed” rape, prayer becomes reduced to therapy rather than efficacious in events, etc. I find no theological system more unhelpful pastorally. I’m not trying to pick a fight, but I was a Calvinist. I espoused all the arguments you are using but no longer find any of them convincing biblically, theologically, or morally.

Levi Chavis Well, to help you out because you seem to want to put a label on God. God is not ethical when it comes to man’s views. God is not a Calvinist. God is not an abolitionist. God is not a theologian. God is God and can do whatever he wants, whether you like it or not. You can’t put God in your little safety bubble so you can feel good about yourself. Who are you to decide what God can or cannot do?-Daniel 4:34-35His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation.35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing.He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth.No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”-Romans 9:13-2313 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,Who are you compared to God?

Levi Chavis Sincerely

Drew Banacos I am part of God’s creation who has been redeemed. And I believe God tells us to imitate Christ who is the revelation of God. And I believe God is good. And that the word good actually means something when applied to God.

Brian Roden God cannot–or better said, will not–do anything contrary to His character as revealed in the incarnate Christ

Calvinism is a humpty dumpty theology – hyper Calvinists would argue God created humpty dumpty as an egg so he can fall off the wall HOWEVER nowhere in the story we are told humpty dumpty was an egg. Calvinists as humpty dumpty theologians present a major theological fail

Ricky Grimsley That radio show was pretty brutal Peter christian.

Dan Irving

Nathan Glenn Peter: You have not made a single good point or convincing thought as of yet. Only a hateful challenge to a live debate. Most don’t have the Scripture memory for a live debate including myself. Apparently, you have memorized plenty of key text, probably out of context to support your flawed perspective. No different than the trained Jehovahs Witnesses that once frequented all our doors. Wrong but sincerely wrong. Minus Freewill their is no relationship with God. Why did God create the tree of the knowledge of Good & Evil in the Garden? If the outcome was predetermined would the tree not be unnecessary? Without the tree, without a choice, there could be no relationship.

Levi Chavis Nathan Glenn, God knew that they would eat from the tree, that’s why He put it in the garden. -Genesis 2:16-1716 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”God didn’t say “IF” you eat, but “WHEN” you eat.

Levi Chavis Ephesians 1:3-143 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.Nothing surprises God Nathan, he is All-Knowing. -Romans 12:2 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.We are part of God’s plan, according to his good will, not ours. 😊

Steven Medlock IF I WERE A CALVINIST If I were a Calvinist,I would believe…Sin never enter Adam and Eve,Satan’s in HeavenNone ever fell,There’s no destination Called Eternal Hell.If none could departFrom Eternal Grace,There’d be no such thing As the human race.If no one has fallen,Then why did CHRIST come?Why did GOD send HIS ONLY SON?Is Adam asleep Dreaming a lie?With with tears on His cheeks,Crying out, “Why?”Am I a figment Of imagination,Is all just the same Since the first creation;Someone shake Adam,So he will awake,And find out his dream,Has all been a fake!No one has fallen,Since nobody can.There is no need For salvations plan…BUT I’M NOT A CALVINIST!!!

Wahyu They use a few scriptures like romans 9 and completely ignore the rest. You see how they avoided it above. Or when they are forced to face it they force it conform to their ideology. And they do it with spite and anger

Levi Chavis -2 Thessalonians 2:13-15But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you t

Wahyu And still have not addressed all the ones I posted earlier. Thats the problem with most erroneous doctrines. Cling to a few scriptures and either ignore others or force them into conforming to your docteine. But at least you’re not the one who promised to. All scripture is correct including what you posted none can be ignored😊

Dan Irving And therein lies the stumbling. Ignoring, rather than integrating scripture that seems contrary to one’s argument. Why would Peter say “GIVE DILIGENCE to make your calling and election sure,” if our own “diligence” was not involved in inheriting eternal life?

Levi Chavis Dan, did you choose to follow God?

Dan Irving Levi Chavis By His Grace, yes, I chose to follow God. And God “chooses US” via sanctification. (ii Thess 2:13) which he performs. (i Thess 5:23) On the other hand, we are not sanctified unless we cooperate by “purging ourselves” to become vessels of honor, sanctified. (ii Tim 2:21). You see, Levi, You can’t accept half an equation and have a true result. The Lord calls MANY to eternal life, but there are painfully few CHOSEN by their volitional cooperation to become sanctified.

Dan Irving BTW, this is even the mischief of the original post; an attempt to discourage men from pressing toward the mark God sets for them, which is holiness. I even detect a tone of contempt in the post; contempt for the full counsel of God’s word.

Levi Chavis Dan Irving, who can resist God’s will?

Dan Irving Levi Chavis Hmm . . those who asked the very same question of Paul, he warned were “replying against God.” (Rom 9:20) (This should be a warning for you.) Fact is, many resist his will by resisting truth, and because they do, they are made reprobate. (ii Tim 3:8)

Christopher Lance Dart Dan Irving–no one. What if God willed to give you some legitimate choices? “Choose this day whom you will serve…” — is God therefore a liar? A deciever? Those are adjectives reserved for the adversary, Satan.

Dan Irving Christopher Lance Dart Yes. As Light came into the world, (Jn 3:19) – there is a Choice. If we love the Light, we are empowered to become sons of God. (Jn 1:12) But if we love darkness, why should we accuse God for hating the image of Himself he has called us to?

Christopher Lance Dart Dan, I was quoting from Joshua 24, before the light (Jesus) became incarnate. People had legitimate choices then, too. I think Augustine was wrong in thinking we were only free to choose sin. How, in your theology, is a depraved sinner enabled to choose to love the light? Prevenient grace? Just trying to see if you are approaching this from an Augustinian/Calvinist position or an oddly Arminian/Wesleyan one. Bec you are sounding more Wesleyan right now. Also remember that “the Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love” (Ps. 145:8) He “remembers that we are only dust” (Ps. 103:14) He does not hate his own image, and he knows that apart from Christ, none of us can grow into that image. Because “God so loved the world” he gave us a path towards that, through faith in Jesus, and faith in what they knew of God and his covenant before then (otherwise OT saints would not be saved).

Levi Chavis How does Christ become a Savior if you can somehow have the free will to save yourself?

Christopher Lance Dart I never said we can save ourselves. “Good works” don’t save anybody, only blood can atone for sin. But the argument about free will vs some deterministic type of the enactment of God’s sovereignity isn’t just about salvation, it’s about every choice I make in life, most of which have nothing to do with my salvation.

Dan Irving Christopher Lance Dart I did not mean God hates himself; but those who reject conformity to His holy image, hate God. As to the depraved sinner, he must be shown his depravity. This is a spiritual matter; recall the Lord stated the Spirit’s work as involving three distinct stages, the first being to “reprove the world . . . of sin, because they believe not on me.” (Jn 16:9) Further, those who come to God are given a taste of His goodness; this ultimately should lead to their true repenting from the heart.

Christopher Lance Dart Dan, I understood that you were being rhetorical with your question abt God hating himself, I was trying to figure out why you were bringing that up. My point is that the “depraved sinner” is all of us. I agree that the Spirit convicts of sin and witnesses to the truth of Jesus, in word and power. When Jesus said “because they believe not on me” in John there, he was referring to himself as Jesus of Nazareth being the Messiah, not a general comment on believing in God. That is why his next comment about righteousness is proven by his going back to the Father, which seems odd until you realize he was talking about the Jews not thinking he was truly righteous, but rather, a blasphemer. His (upcoming at that point) death and resurrection would be the judgement against Satan, the “ruler of this world,” which is his third point then. John 3:17 says that Jesus did not come into the world to judge the world, but that we might be saved through him. His judgement is against Satan, and only by extension, those who reject his revelation of “light” and then choose Satan’s way of rebellion against God instead. Question: before Jesus came into the world, how could people be saved?

Dan Irving Christopher Lance Dart His sacrifice is eternal; ie. outside natural time. (Rev. 13:8) – as offered by the eternal Spirit (Heb 9:14)

Levi Chavis Well we will just put this all to rest with one question: Why was Christ to be named Jesus?The answer is in Matthew 1:21…

Christopher Lance Dart Dan Irving I believe that Jesus as being “slain from the foundation of the world” speaks of God’s intention for him, for his role as sacrificial lamb. His death on the cross happened on earth, in linear time, and there are things that did not happen in our sphere at least until then. Which is why he then “preached to the spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3:19) and we are now given the ministry of reconciliation, even proclaiming these truths to “principalities and powers” who apparently aren’t all aware of this shift in power and redemption. Hebrews there says that it was through the power of the Spirit that Jesus offered himself to God as an unblemished sacrifice (which makes me wonder how the Spirit enabled that process), but that same verse says it’s his shed bleed that makes us spiritually clean and therefore acceptable to God, not the Holy Spirit. The Spirit empiwers us for ministry and grows the fruit of Christlikeness in us/aids our sanctification. Levi Chavis, yes, because Yeshua means “salvation,” and Jesus came to save his people from their sins, as the text says. But no one here is arguing against that, ha. 🙂

Cor Leonis Johnson Did you come up with that statement by your own free will or did someone force you to write it?

Christopher Lance Dart Haha

Steven Medlock 🕆IF I WERE A CALVINIST🕆If I were a Calvinist,I would believe…Sin never enter Adam and Eve,Satan’s in HeavenNone ever fell,There’s no destination Called Eternal Hell.If none could departFrom Eternal Grace,There’d be no such thing As the human race.If no one has fallen,Then why did CHRIST come?Why did GOD send HIS ONLY SON?Is Adam asleep Dreaming a lie?With with tears on His cheeks,Crying out, “Why?”Am I a figment Of imagination,Is all just the same Since the first creation;Someone shake Adam,So he will awake,And find out his dream,Has all been a fake!No one has fallen,Since nobody can.There is no need For salvations plan…BUT I’M NOT A CALVINIST!!!

Christopher Lance Dart That’s not what Calvinists believe at all… I’m not a Calvinist, either, but whoever wrote that has absolutely no grasp on what Calvinists believe. For obvious starters, they don’t believe in universal election/salvation and they most definitely believed that Adam and Eve sinned…

Wahyu Agreed. Doesn’t depict calvinism at all.. I’m also not a calvinist

Steven Medlock The writer of this poem is stating the logical conclusion of “Extreme Calvinism” . If it is impossible for somebody living in a state of grace to ever fall from Grace, then Adam and Eve could never have fallen, therefore they would still be in The Garden of Eden and mankind would have never been. We definitely know this is not true, Adam and Eve did choose sin, they did fall from Grace, and CHRIST had to come to redeem fallen man!!!

Wahyu Calvinism believes God created them to fall. Not that they wouldn’t be able to

Steven Medlock Then why didn’t he create man as a sinner in the beginning, instead of going through one of the biggest charades ever perpetrated!!!

Christopher Lance Dart Steven Medlock, I’m more familiar with Augustine of Hippo than Calvin, tbh, but since Calvin was strongly influenced by Aug… Aug believed that only Adam and Eve were truly free moral agents in regard to choosing either good or evil. In theory, Adam and Eve could have never fallen, but they did, and I believe both theologians felt that all of us eventually would have made that same choice. Since then, they believed that humans inherit Adam’s guilt and propensity towards sin, and that, in fact, God has chosen by his gracious foreordination to elect certain people to be saved from his just wrath against sin by irresistably being called by his grace to believe in the gospel of Jesus when it is preached to them. (Switching more exclusively to Calvin now bec I’m not sure where Augustine stood on this) they will persevere by this same grace to believe until the end and therefore be saved and thus enjoy God forever. Because of this, the sacrifice provided by Jesus’ atonement was not universal, but only for the predestined elect ones. All of this is done so that God may be further glorified through this whole process, since none of us deserve salvation. (Calvinists–how did I do?) Calvin himself did not believe in “double predestination,” in which some people are predestined to go to hell, but since he believed that only those predestined to believe in Jesus would be saved and that without that one was going to hell, effectively he did, imo.

Christopher Lance Dart Tony Conger I’ve never heard that. Do you know of a source for that?

Christopher Lance Dart Last I checked, Fatalism was a pagan doctrine…

Nelson Banuchi I guess Peter Christian had no choice but to mechanically and automatically, without any thought or purpose, to post that OP.

Ricky Grimsley Most people believe in fatalism but they call it something else.

Nathan Glenn Few believe in full Calvinism. It makes God a tyrant dictator. Who would love or serve a cruel God rendering Life & Death, Heaven & Hell to the the just or unjust. The Gospel is pointless & repentance is nonsense to the true Calvinist. It is an easy way to rationalize sin & destructive living

Wahyu Imho most arminians like to believe in a calvinistic God who is controlling everything good for them

Ricky Grimsley Most people at least believe God knows every detail and lets it happen. Thats not really any different to me.

Christopher Lance Dart Well certainly God works all things together for good for those who love him (Rom 8:28) and his ultimate will prevails, and those in Christ are predestined to be conformed to Christ’s image, etc. But God effectively working things together to meet certain desired ends is not the same as erasing real human choices and even variables. If God absolutely controlled everything, then effectively you and I don’t exist, because there is no “I” anymore bec there is no will. We are all just basically puppets enacting out a play for God’s amusement. But that’s not what the Scriptures (or common sense) teach. PTL, haha. What scares people is the sense of responsibility that comes when we realize we have real choices to make. But then all of the other core biblical teachings like prayer (!), obedience to God’s commands, seeking out wisdom, blessing and cursing, the problem of evil, pain, and suffering, etc. all make sense. The problem lies with us, not God and not even doctrine. We want God to be on our side, not us to be on His, because that requires something from us. Ricky and Tony are both right, most Arminians and Calvinists aren’t truly either. In practice, most of us believe whichever is more convenient to us in a particular situation. In reality, I believe the truth here is a paradox in which both sides are partially correct. But it’s hard for us to wrap out minds around that, and we prefer God to be in a nicely packaged box. If we can learn anything from surveying the totality of Scripture, it should be that God doesn’t like boxes! Just ask Job, ha.

Wahyu Well said brother

Drew Banacos I understand the sentiment of what you’re saying but it doesn’t make sense. I’m not willing to concede that God is illogical/nonsensical even though he is transcendent. God cannot both determine everything and not determine everything. That’s not a paradox. It’s a contradiction. There is a difference.

Christopher Lance Dart Drew, do you believe in the Trinity? If so, please explain that, lol. I did say I believe both POVs are partially (not completely) correct. This is God we are talking about. I do not believe that he determines everything, I do believe that we have real choices to make in life, and I (paradoxically?) also believe that God predetermines certain things. If he didn’t, prophecy would be impossible. God could simply be revealing future human choices, but that puts more power in human hands than his, which also makes prophecy pointless. But we also see many times in Scripture where God gives his people choices of major significance; I am pulling a blank on who it was at the moment, but I remember a story in which God tells a leader that he wants to deliver his people via this man’s leadership in a forthcoming battle. God says if the leader declines, God will choose another to do it, but that this leader was essentially his first pick. Was God decieving him? No, but God did say it was going to happen either way. God predetermined a certain outcome, and he could bec through his great power he would ensure the outcome of the battle. But the means by which it happened involved at least one significant variable–who would lead the battle? And whether that man chose to step up and lead or not would certainly make an indelible difference in his life, but he had the option. I think that’s a great example of how God’s sovereign choices can interact with real human ones. God IS all-powerful, but a sovereign monarch does not choose to enact their sovereign choice in every little detail. THAT would be determinism. But saying God only throws some choices out there to us and essentially leaves the rest of it up to us is Deism. What I see in the biblical narratives is a type of cooperation, in which God created us and has certain aims for us and the overall “story” of history, and yet he relates with his creatures in such a way that he ensures that the authentic choices he gives us still accomplish his broader goals. Do I believe that there are things that don’t happen if we don’t pray or if we make choice A over choice B? Yes. Otherwise, prayer and obedience and character formation are pointless. Do I also believe that God is able to redeem even our worst mistakes for his glory and purpose, and that nothing man can do can stop what he intends? Yes. It IS a both/and. It IS a paradox, not a contradiction; Scripture teaches both. We just can’t wrap our minds around it completely. And that’s ok. 🙂

Drew Banacos Sorry I seem to have misunderstood. This makes more sense.

Ricky Grimsley Thats why i see my view of God as superior to most others. My God is defined by all the scriptures.

Ricky Grimsley It started off rocky but the end looks good. 2 Corinthians 3:2-3 KJVS[2] Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3] Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Ricky Grimsley Its cool bro

Stephen Williams Look guys, this will satisfy both Calvinists and Arminians and the answer has been known for centuries! Of Adam and Eve, only Eve had free will! Adam was married!

Got to laugh so I wouldn’t cry 🙂

Stephen Williams It’s an original too!

I strongly doubt this comes from Canadian Pentecostals 🙂

Stephen Williams Well, I am Canadian and a Pentecostal…even speak in tongues too!

Brian Roden And that was comment #100 under another great bomb topic by Peter Christian

Ricky Grimsley Lololol

Joe Absher From a True man of God and a Calvinist,”Spiritual pride tends to speak of other persons’ sins with bitterness or with laughter, levity and an air of contempt. But pure Christian humility rather tends either to be silent about these problems or to speak of them with grief and pity. Spiritual pride is very apt to suspect others, but a humble Christian is most guarded about himself. He is as suspicious of nothing in the world as he is of his own heart. The proud person is apt to find fault with other believers, that they are low in grace, and to be much in observing how cold and dead they are and to be quick to note their deficiencies.But the humble Christian has so much to do at home and sees so much evil in his own heart and is so concerned about it that he is not apt to be very busy with other hearts. He is apt to esteem others better than himself.”– Jonathan Edwards

Wahyu Amen. Love Johnathan edwards

Joe Absher We need Sovereign Grace, true repentance, a sincere heart and prayers and a faith born in heaven

(1) religion without the Holy Ghost – CHECK http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-prophecy-of…/

Levi Chavis Romans 7:24-2524 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Levi Chavis Do you believe in the baptism with the Holy Spirit? Are you baptized in the Holy Spirit? Do you speak in tongues as the Spirit gives you utterance? Have you noticed this is a Pentecostal theology group? http://biblethumpingwingnut.com/…/srr-31-peter…/

Levi Chavis Troy, I’m curious, what do you think that I believe?

You are not answering my questions about what you believe Can a person who holds to predestined personal election be baptized with the Spirit and speak in tongues? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/can-a-person-who…/

Christopher Lance Dart Yes. John Piper, Matt Chandler, Josh Harris, and Mark Driscoll are among a group of contemporary Christians (the Acts 29 network) who identify both as Calvinists and as Charismatic (and there are others).

Levi Chavis Do you believe you can Teach a Calvinists to Dance in the Spirit http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/teaching-a-calvinists…/

Levi Chavis I don’t have a problem showing you exactly what God’s Word says about salvation. In saying that, this will be a conversation between me and you by giving answers with scripture, not me and a thread about a different conversation that you post. Will that be ok with you?

Is Peter Christian Heretical http://biblethumpingwingnut.com/…/srr-31-peter…/

Rico Hero Hello Levi Chavis”The one who is victorious will, like them be dressed in white” (Rev.3:5 a)This implies free will, for one needs free will to “overcome” or be “victorious”” Remember therefore how you have received and heard;hold fast and repent. Therefore IF YOU WILL NOT watch, I will come upon you as a thief,..( Rev 3:3)The fact a choice was given ” if you will not” proves free will.” He who overcomes shall be clothed in white in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life….( Rev 3:5 NKJV)Note:Here Christ promises not to blot the name out of the book of life of any man who will obey the commands of Rev. 3:2-3. If some refused to obey these commands, would their names not be blotted out? If we say such is impossible we accuse God of using vain threats on His people. He definitely promised Moses, “Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of my book” (Ex. 32:32-33). The psalmist by the Holy Spirit prayed that God would blot out the names of Judas and all like him (Ps. 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20). In Rev. 22:18-19 Christ again threatens to take the names of people out of the Book of Life if they take anything away from the words of the book of this prophecy.

Christopher Lance Dart To be fair, you are misunderstanding Calvinist/Reformed doctrine. They agree with those verses. Many of them believe in a concept called “Lordship slavation,” which in a nutshell says that those who have been predestined to salvation are those who “endure to the end.” That is proof of their divine election. In former times, “visible saints” were those who lived consistently virtuous and faithful lives, so people were pretty sure they were saved. Only the extreme among the Puritans and some others believed that there was really no way of knowing if one was saved or not. Most modern day Calvinists are more moderate, and would say that if you believe in Jesus, you have been predestined to do so, and can be assured of your salvation. The P in the Calvinist “TULIP” is “Perseverance of the Saints,” which means that those who are saved will stay faithful to Christ. If someone irrevocably left the faith, they weren’t actually saced in the first place. Similar concept as you bring up, except I imagine you believe that they were saved in the first place, then became apostate and lost it.

Rico Hero Peter Christian:”Free Will is a LIE.”Riccos Herodotou:Joshua 24:15New King James Version (NKJV)15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Wahyu They only know a few scriptures like rom. 8 and 9. Everything else is moot to them

Christopher Lance Dart Actually, people like Martin Luther (who believed in predestination, but a bit differently than Calvin) and John Calvin, and a host of Reformed theologians and scholars since have written entire commentaries on the whole of Scripture. I would say more of them have studied Scripture in the original languages than most Arminian/Wesleyans I know, too, and generally speaking, they are a pretty intellectual bunch. I get more upset with Arminians who don’t really know what they believe or who just write off tough passages like Romans 8 & 9. The Calvinist’s problem is not that they don’t know the Scriptures, it’s that they interpret it through a very European mindset, and not the Judaic one in which it was written. The problem with a lot of us Pentecostals is most of us aren’t very theologically educated, and tend to base opinions off of the English KJV translation, and not on the original languages or with a good understanding of how it was understood in the first few centuries of the church. So we have a hard time dialoging with these people. We’re all brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of our beliefs about free will and predestination, and we will never grow in understanding when we resort to name calling, or not trying to understand the other person’s pov. None of us are 100% right, and we all have things we can learn from each other. 🙂

Rico Hero Christopher Lance Dart ,perhaps that is the problem—Luther and Calvin are too “intellectual” as opposed to being as children.

Wahyu Actually I was just referring to Peter and those like him. Jonathan edwards and many were great intellectuals

Drew Banacos Children are not anti-intellectuals, only in our modern culture. They ask questions too.

Rico Hero Drew, both Luther and Calvin were amillenial. They rejected plain scriptures that teach of the literal and physical reign of Christ and his saints 1000 years. Calvin further taught a double predestination. Based on this and what Christopher said—that they are “pretty intellectual bunch”. My spirit went to Rom 1:22, “Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools”. My spirit also went to Matt 18:3, “and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” If only we accept the plain word of God there would be no disagreement.

Ricky Grimsley Well we still are left with the fact he foreknew someone and that someone was predestined though right?

Christopher Lance Dart I guess the clarification question (and difference btwn Calvinists and Arminians here) is does predestination refer to individuals being chosen for salvation or not, or is it more that those who believe in Christ are predestined to be conformed to his image? God chose the Israeli people, not individuals, and some of them were faithful to him amd some weren’t.

Christopher Lance Dart We have to remember that as Americans, we are prone to read things very individualistically. One challenge is that modern English doesn’t distinguish between you singular and you plural (unless you are in the South, where y’all fills that role). So many statements/promises/commands in the Bible are directed to y’all that we like to read as I. Jesus, for example, doesn’t call us to be lone ranger Christians, but to join the kingdom, his family, the church. That is corporate. Like we tend to wonder what spiritual gifts do I have more than what spiritual gifts does my local body (church) have, and are we missing any “body parts”? Am I predestined, or is the Church predestined?

Christopher Lance Dart More specifically, are those chapters in Romans primarially about individual predestination, or are they about how the Gentiles and Jews fit together into God’s salvation plan? Showing how he had hardened/given faith to both groups at both times in different ways so that ultimately he can save both by his grace in such a way that neither can boast? Read up on the context of Paul’s letter to the Romans and it will all make more sense. He was writing to Christians in Rome, a church that was founded by Jews. But an emperor had expelled the Jews for a time, and so the remainng church was all Gentile. Then, the next emperor allowed the Jews to return and that included Jewish Christians. And the churches there were encountering conflict as the two groups struggled with re-integration. Paul, the great Apostle, was trying to help both groups reconcile, see their interdependence, and that neither one pulled special rank with God.

Rico Hero The difference between Calvinist and Armenians is the belief in free will. Calvinist deny that we were created with the ability to choose (have free will). Armenians do not. The often repeated invitations in the Bible for sinners to come to Christ and be saved, proves Calvinism to be false. Jesus Chris said , no unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Yet Calvinist are in such strong delusion thinking otherwise.

Rico Hero Christopher, “how the Gentiles and Jews fit together into God’s salvation plan” is interesting! Can you elucidate?

FREE WILL Is not a lie

Jerome Herrick Weymouth Calvinist Have a FREE WILL WHO CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT THEY DON’T HAVE A FREE WILL!

Jerome Herrick Weymouth And I chose to be a Arminian and not to believe the fairy tales of the Calvinist!!!

Ricky Grimsley If you believe that God knew every event that would happen before he created….you believe the same fairytale.

Jerome Herrick Weymouth That fairy tale teaches that God uses Mass murderers to torture and kill the righteous that my friend is a Fairy Tail!!! God is not the author of evil!!!

Ricky Grimsley Do you believe that God knew all future events before he created?

King James Bible Isaiah 45:7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil I the LORD do all these things. #oops Jerome Herrick Weymouth

Ricky Grimsley Lol

sorry – just saying

Jerome Herrick Weymouth No oops God does not raise up evil to kill and Maine.

Bring in THE Arminius Nelson Banuchi Street Preacherz

Jerome Herrick Weymouth Yep, I want to hear from him, too!

Arminius is gone to be with the Lord but Nelson is still here

Nelson Banuchi “create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 has to do, contextually, with disasters, calamities imposed in relation divine judgments, not moral evil or man’s sins.

Jevan Little Oops. KJV bad translation strikes againI am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the Lord , who accomplishes all these things.Isaiah 45:7 NEThttps://bible.com/bible/107/isa.45.7.NET

Job 2:10 “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?”

Nelson Banuchi “Free Will is a LIE”?That depends. Did Peter Christian freely choose to write the OP or was he moved by God, like hands in a glove move the glove, to necessarily post the OP by divine by decree?

I think he felt he was preordained to do so, but was his feeling or not?