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Is Christian Socialism possible?
Practical application of Pentecostal theology in politics, economy and social issues
I understand the argument in Galatians
I think I understand the argument in Galatians 3:19a about the purpose of the law. But then in the second half of the verse,…
Varnel Watson
Mike Albright you said that it seems that Christian socialism, as practiced in the book of Acts, produced poverty. How do you defend that to Scotty Searan who thinks its the best thing since president Trump ?
Scotty Searan
Troy Day Mike Albright scriptures not opinions nowhere does it say that if you give all of your worldly possessions that it will bring poverty as a matter of fact Paul said if you don’t work you don’t eat it did not say these people wasn’t working it did mention widows Paul did put some scriptural guidelines to bring into our missed as far as weather goes and that is 60 years old but she also must have done some other things before she could be brought in the scripture said she was to wash the Saints feet
Varnel Watson
Howard Gardner where are you getting the acts 5 reference from? A Pope and A President documents the deep friendship that emerged between John Paul and Reagan, each of their meetings, and the steady volume of the communication between them between meetings. But the dearest part of the untold story from Kengor’s point of view is the role played in this relationship by the Virgin Mary. Pope John Paul II credited her with saving his life from assassin Mehmet Ali Agca’s bullet. That assassination attempt occurred on May 13, 1981, a date of no significance to most people, but John Paul knew that May 13 was the anniversary of the first apparition of the Virgin by three children in Fatima, Portugal in 1917 and that these visionaries believed that three secrets were revealed to them. One of the secrets was that World War I would soon end but unless Russia was converted, it would spread its errors throughout the world. The third secret was unknown to John Paul at the time of the shooting, but he soon learned that this was a vision of an assassination attempt on a bishop – a vision that he took as being fulfilled in him, something that was verified by one of the visionaries. As Kengor notes, even if one doesn’t put any stock in these supernatural events, because the pope did they helped shape history since he responded by devoting himself to the mission of defeating communism. The other protagonist of the story, the Protestant Reagan, also developed a deep veneration of Mary and Our Lady of Fatima became a bond between the two men. The wind that blew down the Soviet straw house was the wind of the Holy Spirit in the minds of these men.
Varnel Watson
Jan Dixon Sykes I am slowly starting to understand that your agenda aigned with the posts of Scotty Searan borders some sort of Christian socialism – an animal we dont really find in the Bible. I have to agree with what Mike Albright said earlier with 1 difference – it seems not a next generation but this very generation is already promoting socialism of some post-Christian, neo-Republican and very very counter productive social order Beats me, but I dont really see this in the BIBLE and have dedicated long hours along with Dan Irving to expose this communistic kingdom-now plague from the church
Jan Dixon Sykes
Huh? I’m a Capitalist. Who thinks we are obligated to give 10% of our income to charity. Period. How is that socialism? I’m a private industry gal.
Scotty Searan
Acts 2:42-47
Life among the Believers
42 The believers continued to devote themselves to what the apostles were teaching, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to times of prayer.
43 A sense of fear came over everyone, and many wonders and signs were being done by the apostles.
44 All the believers were united and shared everything with one another.
45 They made it their practice to sell their possessions and goods and to distribute the proceeds to anyone who was in need.
46 United in purpose, they went to the Temple every day, ate at each other’s homes, and shared their food with glad and humble hearts.
47 They were praising God and enjoying the good will of all the people. Every day the Lord was adding to their number those who were being saved.
Varnel Watson
What would you call that Scotty Searan ? Communal type of living? Not socialism though. Perhaps communism at best? I dont know Jan Dixon Sykes a true republican capitalist wants free borders and open markets. Is this what you really want?
Scotty Searan
Troy Day Communal type living sounds better than socialism
Tell me where did the Apostles and all believers get this doctrine
You can’t get around the Holy Ghost was showing out big time with manifestations of the Spirit.
I don’t have these manifestations.
We don’t go from house to house either, even after we have got off work
Many churches do not have a revival anymore.
Many churches do not have Sunday night service anymore.
Many churches do not have about 25 % of what they have on Sunday Morning
The truth the church members do not love one another
Churches that have extended revivals like Brownsville Assembly of God we find somehow to put them down, because they are worshiping different than we.
Unity will bring the same reaction
There is no unity in the churches
The devil is causing this, yet we don’t realize and we keep following his leading, because we thank gain is godliness
Varnel Watson
not IF you mean communistic by that
Mike Albright showed how it made the church poor
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-there-a-case-for-christian-socialism-in-the-church-today/
Scotty Searan
Troy Day: Please quit going around the same mountain. You are not going to change me.
You are like an attorney you keep hammering the same thing.
How many times do I have to say I don’t believe in Marxism socialism where the Government forcefully takes your possessions and tell you where you can work
I also do not believe in communism and I have said that before.
Christian Socialism is a Christian believer providing for his own and if any extra giving to those in need. It may mean also giving and maybe cause a temporary lack.
You may delete me, I have asked two question about this that you seem to side stepping, yet you want to keep twisting things I say, when I didn’t say them.
WHERE DID THE BELIEVERS ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST GET THE DOCTRINE THEY PRACTICED?
WHO TAUGHT THE DOCTRINE TO THEM?
WHY WOULD THE HOLY GHOST MANIFEST HIMSELF SO VIVIDLY IF IT WAS NOT FROM JESUS?
WERE THE TWELVE APOSTLES PART OF THE ALL?
PLEASE DON’T SIDESTEP ME AGAIN?
Galatians 6:5-7
5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
1 Timothy 6:17-19
17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
1 John 3:16-18
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
We know these scriptures for the most part are not practices.
Varnel Watson
What other socialism is out there except Marxist?
Didnt Link Hudson already summarized that for you?
I think you are calling socialism something that has nothing to do with socialism itself. Some sort of new animal
Jan Dixon Sykes
Troy, you keep conflating political positions and spiritual positions. How we want the world system to work is not how we want the church system to work. I want AMERICA to be a capitalistic, free-enterprise system. But I also want her to break up monopolies and put up tariffs if other countries do. I sure don’t want open borders. And I want zero social programs at the federal level. But I want CHRISTIANS to give at least 10% to the poor and get involved in mentoring. ……… However, the constitution allows for respective states to create whatever social programs their constituents vote for.
Varnel Watson
So this is what you call Christian socialism?
Jan Dixon Sykes
I don’t call ANYTHING Christian socialism. That is somebody else’s construct. I call what Christians do “charity.”
Varnel Watson
Sorry that makes no sense Spiritually or politically Scotty Searan was claiming Christian socialism
Jan Dixon Sykes
Take up your confusion with what Scotty was saying with Scotty. I have my own positions.
Varnel Watson
Your position against open borders and free markets is neo-republican or what is better known as socialistic
Jan Dixon Sykes
No, Troy, my position on closed borders is pro nation states. I want trade. I just don’t want us taken to the cleaners by countries who have tariffs on our stuff and we don’t have tariffs on theirs. And I want BILATERAL trade deals, like what Trump is making. TPP was a multilateral trade deal where disputes were settled in INTERNATIONAL courts, not our own. ………. In socialism, the govt owns the means of production. That’s the last thing I want.
Scotty Searan
Troy Day Do you have a fence around your property?
Are people who have fences around their property socialist?
Scotty Searan
Jan Dixon Sykes Thank you for helping me indirectly. I don’t like the word socialism and I was trying to make a difference between Christian and secular socialism.
Be what may somebody convinced Troy DayDay that building a wall and having tariffs was socialism and he changed his position on the building of a wall and began to call us socialist
And I pulled Acts 2 out and yet he is still blind.
Who cause this outburst of Charity
Why taught this type of charity before the day of Pentecost
Varnel Watson
Dont resort in personal attacks again Scotty Pls just discuss the topic at hand. You know what you claim is just socialistic That’s all
Varnel Watson
https://www.conservativereview.com/news/what-election-republicans-have-already-handed-congress-to-the-democrats/
Adon Kabasala
Amen
Varnel Watson
Again I think Mike Albright said it just right. Socialism makes people poor This is where we are headed as a nation Jan
Robert Erwine
paypal me .99 to find out what economic structure works best for you and your government
Varnel Watson
you’ve shown more capitalistic sense than Jan, Scotty + Link all together
Varnel Watson
I like what Isaac said: Maybe you’re stuck in the cold war era you grew up in. Today, socialism isn’t a dirty word. Countries like Sweden, Norway, Denmark, etc., are all successful despite having free or low cost healthcare and education, the hallmarks of “socialism”.
but I do disagree with Link’s front There are no different socialisms
There is one socialism as a pre-stage of communism No country in the world has ever been communist. There are a few that reached totalitarian state through socialism. The proletariat dictatorship demanded that all land and all tools of production and all goods belong to the state I strongly doubt this is what Scotty Searan wants or that Jan Dixon Sykes with her EU, EO and UFO has any clue what this means for capital economix, free markets and world trade today. We are in the Trumpian era stuck with a constant push toward socialistic society. Mike Albright already showed how this is pushed to a future generation. I have shown on a number of occasions what in the current administration policies borders socialism. It doesnt take rocket science to see it
Scotty Searan
Jan Dixon Sykes you are right it was out of charity that the Apostles and early church in Acts 2 and 4 KJV says all gave out of charity.
Love
Varnel Watson
I can assure everyone that giving out of charity which is the church way we call philanthropy in capitalism has nothing to do with socialism. As Mike Albright already pointed out the way they did it in Acts 4 only made them poor.
Then Jesus stepped in with little persecution and tore up their communal party or Christian socialism as Scotty Searan and spread them all across the land – a little reminder the church is not to sit around and enjoy Christian socialism but to GO and fulfill the Great Commission
Then Paul come around and literally said if you wanna eat you gonna have to work, not just sit around and enjoy Christian socialism or whatever that humanistic thing is called Now even David Rollings who knows a thing or two about liberation theology would agree with that https://www.conservativereview.com/news/what-election-republicans-have-already-handed-congress-to-the-democrats/
Scotty Searan
Troy Day Yes, you always have people that goes along for the free ride and to me that is an extortioner.
You can interpret as you may, but there is no scriptural evidence that Jesus Christ stepped in and broke up the party.
There is no scriptural evidence that by giving that it makes you poorer.
The freeloaders were not obeying Pauls teachings and example. The freeloaders were troublemakers and gossipers
There is no scriptures that the people were not working also while going house to house and giving of there possessions.
There is scriptures that condemn the practice.
I want to see complete scriptures showing your interpretation
Also why are not all the pastors following Pauls example of working and not taking from the flock.
I know many bivocational ministers and I appreciate so much what they do.
But why are they seeking always to go to a larger church?
Varnel Watson
Scotty the model you describe was NOT working
Mike Albright already explained to you WHY
It wasnt socialism either – already shown
Socialism is not proper interpretation of the Acts 4 text
Even Jesus did not like it and scattered them abroad
What else do you have there to defend?
Link Hudson
Troy Day according to the Oxford dictionary rhe word Socialist goes back to 1822 at least. That is 2+ decades before the Communist Manifesto. Maybe socialist political parties and movements in tbe 1800s tended to be influenced by Marx. But there are and have been socialists who did not accept the theory including violent overthrow.
The Bible did not teach Christians to push Rome to redistribute wealth. The saints coluntarily shared.
Varnel Watson
Yes the revolution side of it has always been a problem. Not for liberation theology though, and its recent kingdom-now counter part in todyas American administration
Varnel Watson
https://www.facebook.com/rflam00/videos/1883683288388411/?__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARDtFv62YPvZG77KgnfTm9uIW5rgvqZX6Zg-ET1zMHh9cYRy-_34m3O_lC-9oQpXI4Oc2xm1-2yhpUHexWv4ZpKc6c3icMHuhabSUPrDYwRymahUYkvPaCcBrwJzyqxo0xOCw0QJkM1yJ5KcQuRIIGE7uvhRcNdZxoMggsvNMbamYvLZQba-QfVBln3Ae4gg5ZAY47gL2BtPSN3aVA-25Q&__tn__=H-RH-R
Varnel Watson
Scotty Searan Mike Albright Jan Dixon Sykes
Scotty Searan
Troy Day Christian Philanthropy, Christian Socialism, or Christian Communalism they are all the same and they would work if the Christians (church members) love their brothers and sisters.
How do I know look at the stats. 10 to 25 % per cent give to the church.
Another interesting stat 80% of those that give have zero credit card debt.
James 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
https://nonprofitssource.com/online-giving-statistics/
Varnel Watson
Scotty Searan now you are really just making up things to say Really, what is now Christian Communalism? Did you mean Christian communism ? Or did you mean WACO?
Scotty Searan
Troy Day There are Christian Commune in the United States.
You always like to pick on bad side and not those that are working.
Even Jewish people practice communal systems
What about the Amish?
Varnel Watson
Scotty Searan These examples have little to none to do with socialism in any kind, shape and form – for this ONE reason – they OWN their LAND. You dont own your land under socialism Enough said there. My point has been that the current so called republicanism is nothing than else than a neo-socialism push of pre-WW2 Germanic type, which means extreme and dangerous. If there is anyone to listen I can AGAIN list my reasoning on this under the current administration. Anyone who has studied social orders of any kind should be able to see that easily
Scotty Searan
Troy Day No one has to give what they don’t want to give, that was the way in the book Of Acts. Some did sell there land. A couple sold there land and lied about it. But that didn’t make the system right.
Jan Dixon Sykes have both said you are constraining secular socialism and Christian philanthropy or Christian Communalism.
I don’t like the word socialism because it has been polluted. It is just like the word Gay has been polluted. When I was coming up in the 50s and 60’s and we would say we were having a gay old time. Now say that phrase when you are having a good old time
Look at my last comment I have edited it.
Varnel Watson
philanthropy is NOT socialism or Communalism
Jim Price
Capitalism only came into being in the late 1700’s and thus all the early christians operated under whatever system that prevailed where they lived. Even now few of us are capitalist but function under those who supply capital. Right now there are those called 1.001 percenters ( they have many billions ) then there are the 1.0 percenters who have 1000 or more millions and then there are the 2.0 percenters who control as much wealth as the next 40 percent of us. Jeff Bezos for instance gains in wealth by over 200 million per day and in doing so has shifted wealth from retail stores to home delivery via Amazon.Do you know anyone in your church who is a true capitalist?
Varnel Watson
Donald Trump?
Link Hudson
Jim Price how do you define capitalism if you say it started in the 1700s? Adam Smith described markets as they also existed before his time.
Varnel Watson
finally Link Hudson with a serious question / comment – been waiting for your take on your own expertise
Scotty Searan
I am going to try not to comment no more on this
I do not want secular socialism which some say I want and they can’t get that out of their. I HAVE NEVER SAID I WANTED SECULAR SOCIALISM.
A couple of you Jan Dixon Sykes for one and I can’t remember the other gentleman’s name mentioned communal and philanthropy. None of these mentioned anyone taking any land forcefully
When I mentioned communal system, Troy Day replied WACO. Always pointing out the bad
In Acts they had all things in common.
They all sold their possessions and that included the Apostles. There was very great manifestation of the Holy Ghost. Probably in less than a week.
Then to tell me that Jesus Christ was displeased with it and sent persecution to bust it up.
Then you say Jesus Christ ain’t gonna let us be persecuted the stories don’t wash clean.
There was two questions Troy Day never answered.
Who taught the Apostles these things to sell there possessions and to live the brethren?
Am I stretching it to far to believe that the 3000 who were saved had possibly heard Jesus Christ preach and teach these things
Can I take it a step further in light of church history.
The Holy Ghost was getting the church prepared to move when persecution broke out the Apostles and church would be ready to go because they had some money to travel on.
Jesus had taught them they would be put out of the synagogue and be persecuted
The Holy Ghost was preparing for escape not busting and they were living in s communal setting from philanthropy of the Saints.
Varnel Watson
So to close this topic properly several timely conclusion as related to the church in America today and this current administration must be brought together in a final point I’ve mentioned this several times before but here they are a bit more systematized
communal system has been tried in America by
– Zion, IL where ppl owned their land only until the Millenium
– Amish who are free from land taxes and so on
– WACO where things went pretty bad
and so on … they are not good example for what Scotty Searan is trying to convince us in because the LAND is NOT owned by the government. On the contrary, these communal examples exist mainly on
– personal property
– independence from govt. taxing and rulings
– personal work interest in personally owned business
and so on purely Capitalistic principles and values
Now then, first OFF SOCIALISM:
1. Favor only one TV media and outlaw the rest as fake news
2. Fire everyone in the said TV who dare oppose you
3. Fire everyone in the government who dare oppose you
4. Meet with other world socialist leaders behind close doors
5. Implement tax reforms that favors only the rich
6. Create substitute/fake jobs and make everything expensive again
7. Build a Berlin Wall but bigger and better
8. Marry a woman from the Socialist block
9. Marry another woman from the Socialist block
10. Tell everyone you are venture capitalist republican
11. Allow no immigration, emigration or migration
12. Tax heavily all imports from open markets
Socialists believe on closed borders and command economy with tariffs Republicans use to believe in no walls, free travel, open borders and free markets Seems like no more under this current administration. This new breed of so called neo-Republicans that are neither neo nor Republican but strife toward socialism wanting to:
– Build a wall to wall off a nation
– Limit immigration by a legality action
– Close all economy and markets with over tariffing
ALL socialist social action moves that started under Obama.
Many republicans today got no clue what the Republic is all about. 30 yrs ago they would have been kicked to the curb of GOP with their socialistic ideas of closed tariff markets and Berlin wall borders. The logic is very simple – you cannot have open markets with walled off countries and tariffs. It is not how capitalism works. But you can have socialism ~Cheers
Link Hudson
Troy Day lberlin had a wall. The wall is supposed to be for secirity, to ensire immigration is legal. But it also appeals to people who do not like competing with Mexicans for jobs and those who do not like to see the US turning into a Latino culture.
I do not see how tariffs sare socialist per se but free trade is a philosophy Republicans embrace. Some would say Trump is retaliating against one-way tariffs.
Varnel Watson
China is doubling his one-way tariffs and refusing to pay our debt any longer The socialist block had its own tariffs for trade even within the block itself I also find the statement “competing with Mexicans” as social if not racial profiling and I dont like it being brought into our group
Link Hudson
Troy Day you don’t think Trump’s campaign appealed to racists who don’t like Mexicans? Is racism off topic with all the other topics discussed here?
Varnel Watson
I do think that and I find it plain dumb, except if he wanted to resemble Hitler or some neo-socialist figure. It does not make it right and is not true. Most high paid jobs in the US are not held by Mexican or otherwise latin migrants Racism is not OFF topic but calling names is disrespectful
Link Hudson
Troy Day you havent heard anyone complainabput Mexicans taking their jobs? This does effect the manual labor trades note. Racist or not, Trump appealed to those who thought that way about Mexicans.
Who am I calling names? Were you calling me racist–which does not make sense
Varnel Watson
So tell us Link Hudson in your professional economix training and opinion HOW does socialism relates to Trump’s treatment of Mexican and other Latino nationals?
Link Hudson
Troy Day socialism has to do with state ownership of means of production. We use it loosely to refer to social programs. Or is not dependent on race.
Varnel Watson
yap – tell it to Scotty Searan and Jan Dixon Sykes
Link Hudson
Troy Day anyway my dehree is in biz admin not different econ. system. Though some theories I studied related to other aspects of economics.
Varnel Watson
Would you say Marx / Engels would have never wrote on socialism if it was not for Capitalism itself?
Link Hudson
Troy Day there are non Marxist socialists, bit Marx and Engelbmade socialism a step in their theory. In their time very poor people including children worked long hours in dangerous factories. Western countries eventually created laws to give workers more rights. Unions also helped workers rights. Growth of indistry may have created competition for labor and improve salaries. Marx’s theory was a response to the ills of his day–sire capitalism. But from what I have read Marx did not live out his own ideals well, having an unpaid maid and opposing a worker who wasnt educated and high class enough being a commie leader. The countries who went Communist had rich leaders and poor peasants.
Varnel Watson
apparently there capital socialist like Scotty
Link Hudson
Troy Day socialism was a separate movement in the late 1800s independent from Marxism, butMarxists considered socialism a step in their theory.
Jan Dixon Sykes
Troy, quit dragging my name into this debate. I am not a socialist. Either a Secular one or a church one. I am a capitalist who believes we should give 10% of our income to charity. I’m thinking of leaving this group just because you keep twisting my points into something they are not. And quit tagging me on some of your posts to see what I think. You typically never like what I think anyway.
Varnel Watson
Sorry Jan I am not in the habit of posting on FB during church times or while in church at that matter. It was Scotty Searan who tagged you as inspiration of his Christian communism and if I remember correctly you backed up his idea at the time. As to the OP like Link said, socialism evolved from Marxism in a purely theoretically form, no practical application. So I am not sure how anyone can claim any form of socialism not being Marxists but oh well…
Link Hudson
Troy Day i did not say socialism evolved from Marxism. Marx used the term in his theory.
Varnel Watson
The Communist Manifesto was written by Marx and Engels who coined and used the term “scientific socialism” – my point precisely Either way it has nothing to do with American capitalism open borders and free markets today
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson I tried to tell some little fellow in the forum that our economy during Obama and Trump cannot differ greatly because of the huge increase in national debt. Put it simply the money are not just there. As Margaret Thatcher once said that “The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”
Robert Erwine
it worked in Israel …
Varnel Watson
NOT in this country
THANK GOD
Tonight we renew our resolve,
That America will never be a Socialist nation.
~ President Donald J. Trump
John-Mark Neal Hales
Isn’t that a good thing?
Varnel Watson
this is a GREAT thing
however we see the exactly the opposite taking place
John-Mark Neal Hales
Agreed, however, it’s still great that some our leaders feel that way.
Varnel Watson
they say they do but do they ?
Nora Neel-Toney
Is there such a thing?
Robert Erwine
very easy to do . as a socialist you have many American benefits thanks to socialism now if it was out of Christian motive, we could do the impossible ! too many people holding back economic and social progressives , but they are dying off in droves and a new generation is coming up
Terry Wiles
Is Christian Republican or Democrat possible?
Brian James
Terry Wiles I don’t think it’s possible to be a Democrat Christian. Democrats are now days liberals and socialist. That are for normalization of homosexual and Abortions. Both are against the will of God. If we are true Christians we will be seeking to do his will and be more like him
Terry Wiles
Troy Day. Christianity mixed with anything else is less then Christianity Brian James.
Varnel Watson
I have to agree with it to some extend of course
Miguel Alvarez
Brian James wow, come to pull my credentials off Brother.
Varnel Watson
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/what-do-you-think-of-this-ministry-here/
Brian James
It can not be legislated. If you have a group of Christians that have the heart to have all things common then on that scale yes.
Varnel Watson
You probably should say American democrats There are plenty of Christian democrats around the globe Also, posting during church service is pretty liberal too
Brian James
Troy Day who posted during church service
Philip Williams
“And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need.”
Acts 2:44-45
Philip Williams
“Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. Thus Joseph, who was also called by the apostles Barnabas (which means son of encouragement), a Levite, a native of Cyprus,”
Acts 4:32-36
Varnel Watson
I’ve long argued that
– close markets if tariffs
– close borders
– no freedom of speech
– and no strong church
is basically a form of socialism
Nelson Banuchi
As I read my Bible, it is not a political manual. The ideas of socialism are neither encouraged or encouraged in the Bible simply because it says nothing about it.
Respectfully, Acts 4:32-36 in no way reflects socialist ideas. It reflects a community of believers’ voluntarily sharing of their possessions on the basis of God’s work in them through the agency of the Spirit in the atmosphere of their genuine Christ-like love for one-another.
Philip Williams
Nelson Banuchi as I read my Bible, I discover that it is more than a mere political manual. It is God’s rules for his people to obey.
Varnel Watson
and I read the BIBLE and find LOTS of political manifests especially in the NT especially with Paul
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day Perhaps stories of a political nature, but it is not, at least, intended to be a manual for politics.
Philip Williams
Troy Day Yes, Paul took collections to help the poor in the church as he agreed from the first time he met the other Apostles.
Nelson Banuchi
Philip Williams I would say it is not at all a political manual and, I think, it might be better to say, the Bible reveals God’s principles (rather than “rules”), which His people are commanded to obey.
Philip Williams
Nelson Banuchi Jesus’s standards are higher than those of the world and even of the Law of Moses which also had commandments for helping the poor.
Varnel Watson
PAUL made the most drastic political manifest when he said
Dulos bond-servant of Jesus Christ
as a Roman prisoner Paul/his life belonged to the Roman emperor
But Paul said oh no no no
Jesus conquered my soul FIRST
I am his bond-servant FIRST
You can only have me if you conquer JESUS FIRST
basically saying with this simple statement
THAT Jesus and His Kingdom are more powerful than Rome and the emperor – than Trump and America
If this is NOT a political statement from the BIBLE I Dont know what is Terry Wiles Nelson Banuchi
Philip Williams
Troy Day what is meant here by ‘political’? The term derives from the practices governing ancient cities. It is generally meant by Christians to refer to the government of the world vis a vis the government in the church, the Kingdom of God, which will one day rule the world. Thus, the true people of God have a higher court than the people of the world, from which we are not to belong even if we live here as foreigners.
Varnel Watson
You tell us Philip Williams you tell us
Philip Williams
Troy Day Let Paul tell us:
1Cor 6: 14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”(Lev. 26:12; Jer. 32:38; Ezek. 37:27)
17Therefore,
“Come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”
Nelson Banuchi
First, Paul’s statement is not political but against the political, that is, the Roman political, i.e. government, system.
Second, neither is Paul’s statement that he is a bond-slave of Christ political but spiritual (or religious).
Third, anyone attempting to conquer Christ can only do so by spiritual and not political means, that is, if they seek to make a direct assault against Christ’s rule on earth.
Fourth, to say “Jesus and His Kingdom are more powerful than… Trump and America,” is not a political statement but a spiritual declaration, since the struggle against opposing kingdoms is not by “flesh and blood” (Ephesians 6:12ff). Whatever we do from a practical standpoint is founded on the spiritual opposition we impose.
So, no, imo, it is not a political statement.
Varnel Watson
hence its a political manifesto
Miguel Alvarez
Not in the mind of conservative Christians
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse Terry Wiles if you dont call this communism IDK what is
The housing allowance is being challenged
in a federal lawsuit as an unconstitutional preference for
religion. The current status of this case is summarized in
a special section at the beginning of this tax guide
Varnel Watson
Wayne Scott we’ve discussed this before perhaps even with you and NO it is NOT possible
The Moravian lifestyle you gave as an example is your own logical folly
The Moravians lived communal style not communism or socialism
Also, the labor tools were owned by the labor force NOT by a totalitarian state I think you know about communism as much as you know about salvation sola fide
AJ Gambhir
Troy Day I think the way I define or see socialism is not how most Westerners would see. I took a lecture and professor said that western system is more individualistic and hence not collective or socialist.
How do you define socialism?
Varnel Watson
means of production, distribution, and exchange owned or regulated by the community – theoretically
AJ Gambhir
Troy Day that’s communism also. What I see happening today is that socialism concept represents people who favor social work and that’s liberal government mostly. Communist system or government would be more like Conservatives who want to preserve a worldly way of things also.
Socialism cannot really be avoided and is great Biblical concept as socialist government believes in social work and not biased.
Communist or conservative government is not Biblical at all.
At least that’s how I see things.
Varnel Watson
see it happening where? – not in the church
Philip Williams
No, but true Christianity is communism.
Varnel Watson
Pope and A President documents the deep friendship that emerged between John Paul and Reagan, each of their meetings, and the steady volume of the communication between them between meetings. But the dearest part of the untold story from Kengor’s point of view is the role played in this relationship by the Virgin Mary. Pope John Paul II credited her with saving his life from assassin Mehmet Ali Agca’s bullet. That assassination attempt occurred on May 13, 1981, a date of no significance to most people, but John Paul knew that May 13 was the anniversary of the first apparition of the Virgin by three children in Fatima, Portugal in 1917 and that these visionaries believed that three secrets were revealed to them. One of the secrets was that World War I would soon end but unless Russia was converted, it would spread its errors throughout the world. The third secret was unknown to John Paul at the time of the shooting, but he soon learned that this was a vision of an assassination attempt on a bishop – a vision that he took as being fulfilled in him, something that was verified by one of the visionaries. As Kengor notes, even if one doesn’t put any stock in these supernatural events, because the pope did they helped shape history since he responded by devoting himself to the mission of defeating communism. The other protagonist of the story, the Protestant Reagan, also developed a deep veneration of Mary and Our Lady of Fatima became a bond between the two men. The wind that blew down the Soviet straw house was the wind of the Holy Spirit in the minds of these men.
Philip Williams
Troy Day The Catholics that I am working with in Poland are connected with this nun whose visions were all about Jesus, his mercy, and his coming. Her visions of the Lord’s Coming also concerned Mount Ararat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faustina_Kowalska
Philip Williams
The Soviets didn’t impose communism but state capitalism. The Pole’s credit their freedom from Soviet rule not to Reagan but to the Roman Catholic Church.
Varnel Watson
yeah more of totalitarian antinomism 🙂 or Bolshevic anarchy I went to the local Amish farm yesterday to get some tomato plants for my garden yesterday The guy at the counter told me he spent many years in Warsaw with the Pope before he became a pope Yes it was an old guy From what he said I think he actually lived there quite a bit Had no idea Amish ppl lived in Poland at any time through modern history
Varnel Watson
liberation theology maybe BUT it wanst meant to be
RichardAnna Boyce
I don’t believe in forced socialism, or foisting on others false guilt.
But among those who would read this are resources that can help a pastor or
believer who finally has understood grace and is excited about sharing it; there are resources among us that can give to that need or go to that need.
I’m not even talking about material things first.
I am talking about giving or sending teaching, books, or resources to help them
grow and go.
We can be the bulge in the belly of overabundance or a hearty meal to a starving soul.
You can’t legislate equality, but you can appeal for it.
I challenge you to adopt the New Testament spirit of equality.
I challenge you to take the grace message you are so well versed in and share it in person, or through literature, or however God leads, with a church, or a brother, or sister across the seas who has not heard or understood it.
What we are gorging on to the point of indigestion,
they will savor like fruit from the tree of life.
I believe the Free Grace Alliance is the perfect place for resources to meet needs.
Let’s keep the conversation going.
Varnel Watson
forced socialism? what other type is OUT there? AJ Gambhir Troy Day you see happening where? – in the church?
Wayne Scott
Troy wrote to me:
//Also, the labor tools were owned by the labor force NOT by a totalitarian state I think you know about communism as much as you know about salvation sola fide//
and was put to school by AJ Gambhir.
When I read about the early church I see that they owned all things in common. Justin Martyr is one source who backs up the New Testament on this.
And I get my definition of sola fide (faith alone) from the only book that contains the term (except for Luther’s fraudulent NT translation). I see from James writing to those faith alone believers that they should “Submit then to God…” that these faith alone believers had not repented. So faith alone is faith without repentance.
AJ Gambhir
Wayne Scott see that’s the idea of socialism, it’s about quality criteria and giving people chance that Jesus would do. Its Pentecostal theology, our Pentecostal ideals mean a person with quality is chosen by God for spiritual growth or basically only obedience and self denial is related to spiritual growth. A conservative view is not a Pentecostal view, Pentecostal idea is not about saving numbers as what conservatives or communists care about. Socialism means liberalism or liberal government, hence Elijah gets authority over the system or so called TULIP version of conservatives. No Solas will be accepted by advanced Pentecostals ever, and those who accept the conservative TULIP version aren’t authentic Pentecostal
Varnel Watson
AJ Gambhir you could NOT be more wrong than you are Just our of history could you give just ONE single example where your socialistic theoretix have actually worked? Just one pls
We have many Latin American countries that have attempted social Gospel liberation theology Jesus type revolution Philip Williams may even attest to that But which ONE has actually worked?
Neither Acts ch. 3-7 make case for Christian socialism
Nor the jewish kibbutz system
The kibbutz system is actually a temporary migrant camp until democracy and republicanism was bestowed upon the newly found Israeli state
Socialism also differs by the early Church community in Acts ch. 3-7 by the fact that in Acts it was the Holy Ghost that selected the people not a socialist party. You show me just ONE of your so called socialism structures where the Holy Ghost elects leadership. May be sometimes soon on the Moon, but for right now on Earth there aint none
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-there-a-case-for-christian-socialism-in-the-church-today/
Varnel Watson
Wayne Scott it has become clear trough your posts THAT you believe in salvation via works. The Pelagian heresy you promote is just that – heresy There is nothing to discuss or learn there If one could have been saved through works NO need for Christ to die – that simple
Now, we are learning that you dont know jack about the Early Church either We’ve discussed here this BUT why not go over it again just for you AJ Gambhir has shown not to understand the difference between socialism and communism and then also theoretical socialism which neither Marx nor Engels envisioned and its practical totalitarian state. BTW no one has seen communism in praxis yet so all claims of what it could or may be are pure utopia
Back to the Early Church – WHERE do you read
they owned all things in common?
Most certainly NOT pass Acts 8 and forwrd The model in Jerusalem did NOT work Actually even the Lord did not honor it and spread the church through persecution
Now then, instead of citing us church fathers you have NOT read in the original tongues, shows us from the BIBLE where do you see the communal model pass Acts 8 //and please hurry up cause I am letting my students on Easter break tomorrow Good luck
Varnel Watson
tell us Philip Williams
Philip Williams
Impossible because authentic Christianity is communist, not socialist.
Philip Williams
“All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.” Acts 2:44-45
Philip Williams
“All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.” Acts 4:32-35
Philip Williams
Christians continued for centuries to live in communes like the one in Jerusalem and as missionaries in far off lands Even the first settlement in Plymouth Rock was much like this.
Robert Erwine
with God , all things are possible
Thomas Henry Jr.
Nope
Phyllis Contreras Cardenas
No
Charles Page
There are supporters of a “Christian socialism” in the Church of God.
William DeArteaga
Yes, probably, if divested by the Marxist overlay that infests all socialist ideologies.
Varnel Watson
WHY is the church trying to push it so hard in America then? Philip Williams
Philip Williams
Instead of the world, the church needs to focus on the church so that it will then become a light to the world.
Alden Lopez Salguero
Yes, the true Christianity is a form of Socialism! but nobody really follows it how it should be. Jesus Christ was a true Socialist! (If we really underestand the concept)
Philip Williams
Christians are nowhere obligated to look after the Devil’s children. We tend not to realize that the poor to which Jesus is referring are the people of God or at least those who fear God.
But we are our brothers keeper and we must look after God’s family. That also means insuring that each one capable is working and assisting. As Paul informed the Thessalonians, those who do not work should not be fed by the church.
Moreover, this will not only be our means of surviving but actually prospering and flourishing when the big one comes that will be even worse than the fall of Rome. At that time, the church not only flourished but came to power in the medieval world to serve as a peacemaker between the kings.
Philip Williams
Of course Christians are kind and have mercy on those truly in need. But we aren’t obligated to enable drug users to have a nice place to live as they steal from and exploit widows and the innocent.
I learned a great deal from operating an inner city ministry.
James L Alldredge
Christian socialism is based on the attitude that “all that is mine is yours” whereas worldly socialism takes the point of view that “all that is yours is mine” – Winston Churchill
Will Sovie
Yea . It’s called the Catholic Church ! Roman Catholic Church is socialism for the spirit .
Jed Smock
Socialism is legal plunder; socialists rob from the more productive members of society to redistribute the wealth to the less productive and even the unproductive. Socialism is a violation of both the 8th and 10 Commandments.
David Tripp
no
Varnel Watson
is it entirely possible @ all? what say ye Jesse Morrell William DeArteaga
William DeArteaga
I am suspicious, but there was an authentic attempt at it in the 1900s before Marxism gummed up all varieties of socialism.
Varnel Watson
I say its impossible
Incompatible values William DeArteaga
lets now see what Jesse Morrell will copy/paste for us from his new research on the subject here
Mike Partyka
Socialism fails due to man’s fallen state. Socialism on paper is a “Perfectionism” thought that will never work due to our nature. If it was a perfect world, with perfect beings, and infinite abundance all forms of government would work well……perfectly.