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A recent post-Tribulation book by a guy who did some mission work in Indonesia or the close by area, led to some question as of HOW exactly can a left behind church survive the Tribulation? His “book” mimicked the Left Behind series, but took the opposite approach looking into the life of believers (not the word believers – not churches).
It is most certain THAT some churches in the WORLD today go through tribulation. Many are persecuted, executed and martyred for the faith. But is this The Tribulation of the Bible?
So lets take the post-Trib theory a step further and examine HOW would a church operated during the Tribulation and more specifically an evangelical church in America.
(1) for starters: ONLY the ones who take the mark of the Beast (whoever that may be) will not be able to buy or sell. Anything! Food, gas, electricity, water – absolutely nothing.
(2) The pastors will NOT be able to receive salaries, insurance or anything included in their package. Remember, if the church cannot buy or sale, neither can the pastor receive a salary. And even if a salary is given, what would the pastor spend it on without the mark of the beast?
(3) Tithing system – those are most usually set up with a paper check or some sort of electronic banking like debiting or crediting. With the mark of the beast, the church will NOT be able to receive those moneys and even if it does, it cannot operate with them to buy or sell anything.
(4) What about church buildings – without the mark of the beast they will not be able to purchase any service – electricity, lights, internet, gas for church vans, insurance, special events, catering, food – no communion elements. Nothing at all. With no professional services available, a church building may last a few months, but will fall apart soon before the Tribulation is over… Just think about it
(5) Any other church related logistics or operations that depend on the purchase of gasoline and transportation. They way current church infrastructure in America is set up, how many would actually take the time to walk miles and miles to a church?
OK, so the hiding in the rocks scenario, in which Jesus is most obviously speaking to the Jews. They knew how to carve hideaway caves in the lime rock of the desolated land and hide whole villages from the Romans. Let’s say my Indonesian related friend lives in mid-Georgia area near Atlanta. Which rocky area can he run into and hide his family, especially if with many kids? How long would be able to survive, having lived the city life and not knowing how to skin even a squirrel? And most importantly, what kind of church would that be that survives the Tribulation and comes into the Havens? Zero to none is perhaps the best answer for the post-trib scenario.
Perhaps for this reason a question is asked in the Revelations about Who are those coming from the Tribulation? If those are NOT Israel, the question is asked in the Holy Book in the most surprising matter. Both the asker and the answerer are quire surprised that ANYone has been able to pass through the Tribulation without taking the Mark of the Beast. The surprise in the text comes from only one reasonable explanation – the church is already in the Heavens, saved from any Tribulation and celebrating with the Lamb of God. The ones coming from the Tribulation are the exception to this rule. They are the Left Behind…
Varnel Watson
Rico Hero Alan Smith A.J. Bible OK, so the hiding in the rocks scenario, in which Jesus is most obviously speaking to the Jews. They knew how to carve hideaway caves in the lime rock of the desolated land and hide whole villages from the Romans. Let’s say my Indonesian related friend lives in mid-Georgia area near Atlanta. Which rocky area can he run into and hide his family, especially if with many kids? How long would be able to survive, having lived the city life and not knowing how to skin even a squirrel? And most importantly, what kind of church would that be that survives the Tribulation and comes into the Havens? Zero to none is perhaps the best answer for the post-trib scenario. Ricky Grimsley
Gary Micheal Epping
I can see your point if you look at parts of the seeker friendly, sissified, American church, which would have trouble standing up to any type of minor trials, much less what will happen during the Great Tribulation. HOWEVER, if you look at the house churches in China, one can see that the church of Jesus Christ is capable of standing strong and withstanding whatever the devil might throw their way. If God gave the Jews quail and manna to sustain them in the OT, he will provide for his own, both Jew and gentile, during the Great Tribulation. The only ones wimping out then, will be some of the pretrib Christians that are still complaining that they should have been rescued earlier.
Varnel Watson
Even the members houses churches in China can BUY and SELL – there no such option for Christians who do NOT accept the mark of the beast during the Tribulation .Sure there could be churches but they will have to accept the mark of the beast in order to buy or sell
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day Why would they need to buy and sell with those people groups that have accepted the mark? God will give them a place of protection to stay across the world (Bozrahs), as well as food. There may be trade within the Bozrah or between Bozrahs, but no need to interact with those that follow the Antichrist.
Varnel Watson
Perhaps for this reason a question is asked in the Revelations about Who are those coming from the Tribulation? If those are NOT Israel, the question is asked in the Holy Book in the most surprising matter. Both the asker and the answerer are quire surprised that ANYone has been able to pass through the Tribulation without taking the Mark of the Beast. The surprise in the text comes from only one reasonable explanation – the church is already in the Heavens, saved from any Tribulation and celebrating with the Lamb of God. The ones coming from the Tribulation are the exception to this rule. They are the Left Behind…
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Member when Christian groups were raising
money to send to Israel to buy food for those who would hide in Petra during the tribulation? Who got that money?
Varnel Watson
ISRAEL – yes! American church – hardly possible !
Rico Hero
Troy, I clicked on the above link re: how can a left behind church survive the Tribulation, that leads to your page and watched the video you have linked: “Has the tribulation actually begun Part 1 ” by Perry Stone Two things stood out in his video 1) when he said the martyrs go to a special paradise and rule with Christ. Perry does not believe that there is a special paradise for martyrs or does he? 2) that the Antichrist will be a Muslim. I do not think so because the Antichrist turns over the Temple Mount to the Jews. Anyways, I will assume/hope in Part 2 of “has the tribulation actually begun” Perry says that no the tribulation has not actually begun.
Link Hudson
Not sure if this is about me or not. I never wrote that book bit thought it would be a cool idea. Better at least to have a Biblically feasible book than the left behind series.
Link Hudson
Also those of all nations come out of the great tribulation according to Revelation 7, not just Israel.
The difficulty of surviving the tribulation is not a logical argument for the pretrib rapture. It is an emotional one. It is the same reason pretrib is popular. Many Christians do not want to have to suffer of believe that they will have to.
God is able to multiply food and Christians may need to learn to share again as in the book of Acts.
Varnel Watson
Rico Hero apart from the video (I dont believe in a Muslim antiChrist either but Ricky Grimsley may believe it ) a few questions
(1) for starters: ONLY the ones who take the mark of the Beast (whoever that may be) will not be able to buy or sell. Anything! Food, gas, electricity, water – absolutely nothing.
(2) The pastors will NOT be able to receive salaries, insurance or anything included in their package. Remember, if the church cannot buy or sale, neither can the pastor receive a salary. And even if a salary is given, what would the pastor spend it on without the mark of the beast?
(3) Tithing system – those are most usually set up with a paper check or some sort of electronic banking like debiting or crediting. With the mark of the beast, the church will NOT be able to receive those moneys and even if it does, it cannot operate with them to buy or sell anything.
(4) What about church buildings – without the mark of the beast they will not be able to purchase any service – electricity, lights, internet, gas for church vans, insurance, special events, catering, food – no communion elements. Nothing at all. With no professional services available, a church building may last a few months, but will fall apart soon before the Tribulation is over… Just think about it
(5) Any other church related logistics or operations that depend on the purchase of gasoline and transportation. They way current church infrastructure in America is set up, how many would actually take the time to walk miles and miles to a church?
Link Hudson
Could it be that the church might return to some practices of the early church– sharing resources, meeting in homes instead of church buildings, giving to leaders rather than set salaries?
God is also able to multiply food. On a practical level, farming, hunting, and sharing may be some ways to survive depending on where one is located.
Varnel Watson
Where would you get seeds for farming?
Even nowadays most seeds nowadays are GMO engineered and government regulated where you have to BUY them each year
Then you have very very unfavorable times for cropping –
moon turning into blood,
stars falling from the sky,
most water poisoned,
locusts and other creatures,
cannibalism especially for large families acceptable etc.
God’s favor and protection will NOT be on earth during the Tribulation Even Ricky Grimsley has given up on such idea
Link Hudson
Troy Day sounfs pretty rough. Christians will have something more reliable than your concerns. The Bible says “…my God shall supply all your needs according to His riches in glory…” and also “seek ye first the kingdom of God….and all these thinhs shall be added unto you.”
We would both agree there will be saints during that time. Unless God preserves them miraculously through an extended fast they will have to eat.
If your questions do not disprove the existence of the tribulational saints the Bible tells us about, then it they are not evidence for a pretrib rapture.
Varnel Watson
Your scenario seems impossible Even the 2 witnesses in Revelation that speak from God are not given such comfort as you claim some imaginary church would have under the Tribulation. BTW there is no Scripture support that God’s Wrath would spare none For this reason in Rev 3:10 the church is promised to be taken before the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth – note the whole world no exception and all inhabitants – no exception
Link Hudson
Troy Day Do you think it is impossible that Jesus’ statement that if you seek first the kingdom of God all these things shall be added unto you? How does the experience of the two witnesses change that?
The congregation in Philadelphia would be kept from the hour of temptation that would come upon the whole world. But many saints will endure the tribulation.
Can you show me where __The church__ experiences a pre-tribulation rapture in the book of Revelation without using bizaar allegorical interpretation, such as saying John being told ‘Come up hither’ means a pre-trib rapture?
Varnel Watson
How do you think all this would work under the Tribulation Seems hardly possible the way you describe it
Link Hudson
Troy Day so are you doubting that saints will exist during the tribulation as the Bible teaches?
Varnel Watson
what do you mean?
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson Sure there could be many churches under the Tribulation perhaps even your GBI but they will have to accept the mark of the beast in order to buy or sell
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping Sorry I am just now seeing this question of yours:
Why would they need to buy and sell with those people groups that have accepted the mark?
They would need to accept the mark in order to buy or sell [period]
How else would they survive for 7 years without buying or selling?
Gary Micheal Epping
Who says you have to buy or sell with others with the mark. Christians will buy and sell or barter with other christians who do not have the mark.
Link Hudson
We may have to learn to farm, hunt, and share.
Varnel Watson
Could you point to some churches in your area or organization that are preparing in such way for the Tribulation? Again, what seeds would you use to farm? In todays America you have to buy seeds from the government every year. They are good only for one crop. They do not produce seeds for the next year – just 1 harvest So how would you farm for 7 long years?
Link Hudson
I’m not a farmer. It may be good for someone to prep, and the Lord may lead some people in that direction. I’ve heard of someone doing that. I’m not a farmer. Are all seeds sterile like that? I’d imagine classic seeds still exist.
Gary Micheal Epping
I already have solar and wind power, and am fully off the grid. I do not need to buy or sell from an electric company. Plenty of elk, deer, and antelope around for food. Have 30 acres to plant crops if ever needed. It would not be that big a deal to survive if the Great tribulation began tomorrow. I think we could make it for 3.5 years.
Varnel Watson
Where would you get seeds to plant crops?
Where would you buy bullets/arrows for hunting? And would you plan to hunt OFF season as well?
Are you planning to crop by hand with no gasoline?
Link Hudson
Troy Day I don’t know when the great tribulation. will happen or if I will be aluve. We all should trust God to provide. If He directs you to farm di so.
Varnel Watson
Ricky Grimsley are you too planing to hunt and crop for 7 years? me and Rico Hero be then by then 🙂
Link Hudson
Troy Day persecution could occur whether we go through tgw great tribulation or not.
Varnel Watson
The question is HOW would the church survive? The answer is impossible. The church is taken before the hour of wrath
Varnel Watson
You are of course once again misinterpreting on purpose what I wrote above. Food is a small part of the issue though an important one overall.
I question the very possibility for the church to operate as a church under the Tribulation.
Apart from general talk, you have not provided a solid argument against my point, just ridicule as usual Your next move is to drop the ball for a few days under a busy pretext come back in a week or two with the same topic and repeat your pseudo argument again hoping everyone forgot. This is not way to lead a scholarly discussion. If you have something that makes a lick of sens to say please do
Link Hudson
Troy Day I suspect your idea of ‘function as a church’ differs from mine. The early church tended to meet in homes. There is no record of a church building being built in the Bible. There is no command for Christians to tothe to the church. Early Jerusalem saints who were zealous forthe law and made sacrificed in the temple likely continued to tithe to the priests. The Bible does not even mention our one man or senior pastor system. They had elders who were charged with pastoring the flock. Paul and Barnabas appointed elders from within their congregations instead of bringing in hired career clergymen. There is no reference to salaries for them, either, but they were to recieve ‘honor’.
If some of these institutional church structures we see today disentigrated and were replaced with what we see in Scripture I am inclined to see that as a good thing.
As you will recall, Revelation does not refer to the saints as churches during that time. It may have to do with the global context it is addressing. The churches in chapters 2-3 are one churchbper city and later chapters may view Christians spread across the earth. Maybe city churches will not be recognizable during this time. Do we even see Christians functioning as one church per city now?
The questions like ‘how are ya gonna eat if you can’t skin a squirrel?’ apply to tribulational saints under pretrib and post trib but does not prove ptetrib rapture. A lot of those saints will be killed. But unless God preserves the miraculously without food, they have to eat to survive until their heads get chopped off.
Varnel Watson
We’ll talk about it more in two weeks, I guess…
Link Hudson
Troy Day are you expecting an eschalogical event inw weeks?
Varnel Watson
wait – has it been 2 weeks? – talk to you then
Varnel Watson
Rico Hero A.J. Bible you can call this “special” revelation if you will but more and more I read Link Hudson and Gary Micheal Epping whom I enjoy greatly, I am starting to be persuaded they MAY be the 2 witnesses mentioned in Revelation. Their strong conviction of surviving through the Tribulation and leading many to Christ laves NO doubt of the mission served. We wish them all the best and will make many prayers before the Throne on their behalf during the later 3.5 years https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0NROedyVP8
Link Hudson
Troy Day i have met three of the twobwitn3ss3s already on the Internet based on what they wrote, ansd they arent me.
Varnel Watson
I told Ricky Grimsley that when I watched #WACO it strongly reminded me of postribers and 3/4-rapture folk They just Revelations their own funny way
Link Hudson
Troy Day the best evidence you have shown for pretrib is trying to redefine apostasia to refer to the rapture. You seem to think John being told ‘Come up hither’ refers to the rapture of the church, a weak argument and as allegorical as amil.
Varnel Watson
Have I ever actually said this or you just like to put words in other people’s mouth without ever reading their exegetical argumentation? If you have only read…
Link Hudson
Troy Day That’s the best of my recollection and understanding. Have i wrongly confused your viewpoint with another poster, or assumed you accepted a view from a video you endorsed? If so, I apologize. What is your belief about apostasia. You usually cite other people’s sources that you presumably agree with, and act like you made an argument. Now, you are indicating that you did not make that argument.
Rico Hero
Two Events Precede the Day of the Lord
The Falling away. Greek: apostasia (G646), defection, revolt, apostasy. Used only here (2Thess 2:3 )and in Acts 21:21, but the same as apostasion, divorce, in Mt. 5:31; 19:7; Mk. 10:4. The Greek here has the definite article, “the apostasy,” referring to the great apostasy during the tribulation days between the rapture and the second coming of Christ (Mt. 24:4-31 Rev. 6:1–Rev. 19:21). At the rapture of all dead and living in Christ in a moment (1Cor. 15:23,51-58 1Th. 4:13-18), not one soul will be left on earth who is a Christian. Multitudes will soon be saved afterward through an awakening (Acts 2:16-21 Rev. 6:9-11; 7:1-17; 12:17). The rest will become so hardened as to seek to destroy these being saved in those days (Rev. 9:20-21; 16:2,9-11). The great whore of Rev. 17 will destroy multitudes of Christians during the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel’s 70th week, while the Antichrist is coming to power over the 10 kingdoms inside the old Roman Empire (Rev. 6:9-11; 17:6). When Antichrist comes to full power over the 10 kingdoms in the middle of Daniel’s 70th week, he, together with the 10 kings, will destroy the great whore, establish the worship of the beast, and kill multitudes who will not worship him and his image or take his brands (Rev. 7:9-17; 13:1-18; 14:9-13; 15:2-4; 16:6-11 Rev. 2-4; 17:16-17).
2.The man of sin is revealed (2Th. 2:3).
From Dake
Varnel Watson
Rico Hero you will need to repeat this in a week or two when Link Hudson forgets all this and will ask you the same question again This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument most convicting comes the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.” They were as follows:
1. The Wycliffe Bible (1384)
2. The Tyndale Bible (1526)
3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)
4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)
5. The Great Bible (1540)
6. The Beeches Bible (1576)
7. The Geneva Bible (1608)
The Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” http://probible.net/2-thessalonians-22/
Link Hudson
Troy Day Do you have any reason to think that ‘departing’ meant anything other than the apostacy to these translators? A couple of those are basically the same translation, btw.
Wycliff translated it ‘dissenssion’, and I do not know if the other assertions here are correct. From Bible Hub:
3(Let) No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension, (or departing away), come first, and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition,
Varnel Watson
the WHO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4APsUYFDQ7o
Varnel Watson
Rico Hero seems like with all the general talk Link Hudson has truly failed to show a single place the word CHURCH is used as being on earth between Rev ch. 4 and ch 19
Link Hudson
I notice that Troy Day has not been able to produce any evidence for the church not being on earth between Revelation 4 and 19. I can show I Thessalonians 1, in which Christ returns and gives the church rest.
I can also show from I Thessalonians 4 that the church is raptured at the parousia. II Thessalonians 2:8 shows that the man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of the parousia. Of course, I have never seen Troy actually write out a response to these passages or try to reconcile them.
Terry Wiles
There will not be a left behind church.
The “Church” which is the Body of Christ will be with Him.
Varnel Watson
There you go Terry Wiles finally sums it up Now he needs to tell us WHO are the great multitude coming from the Tribulation and we will be done They cannot be the Church because they are dead – did not love their lives – they are not reptured nor translated into glory
Then ol Lincoln will need to give us his full eschatological plan – like what follows after what. So far we only know he is a post-tribber of some sort but what follows after even he dont know
one will be hunting to survive the Tribulation
Link will be plowing with his finger nails perhaps
What about Gerardo de Dominicis who cant neither hunt nor crop, but can fish only if there is a store to get bate from How are city boys like that going to survive the Tribulation when they cant buy the whole store at a 3 inch snow warning One answer only – they will have to take the mark of the beast Just think of the families with many children and you get the answer
Gary Micheal Epping
People will starve and die only if they refuse to eat the manna God will provide or won’t go into a sheepfold sanctuary for protection.
Varnel Watson
NT verses that say anything about manna from God during Tribulation pls Ricky Grimsley do you know any? So even if you have food covered what about gas and first need things? Or will just stay there for 7yrs and wait on manna? Gary Micheal
Varnel Watson
NO – if it could Jesus wouldnt need to come back
Jireh D Hormann
If they’re left behind, they wouldn’t be the church.
Varnel Watson
none saved in the Tribulation ?
Todd Griffin
I would say The best strategy would be to make sure YOU DON’T get left behind.
Philip Williams
Answering these questions concerning how the church will actually thrive in the Great Tribulation.
Let’s first address the Great Deception that Paul mentions in 2Thes.
1. The book of Daniel clearly shows that beasts are not individuals but world dominating governments. Do we not know that our warfare is not against flesh and blood? Even God’s government in Heaven are the four living beasts that surround his throne.
No government in the history of the world has ever dominated the entire world except the one in Washington, D.C, If you don’t believe that you must have the mark of this beast in order to buy or sell, then ask the leaders of Iran, North Korea, and Venezuela. What does John’s Revelation mention this? That is the source of power of this beast.
This beast obtained its power during the Gulf War when it called down fire from heaven in full view of men. That was the point in which the nations of the world understood they could not oppose this government.
2. The money-driven, free-enterprise economy sits on this beast which John saw in the wilderness. In John’s day, North America was but a wilderness. Mystery Babylon is this present world. The sea captains, the great men of the world, are corporate CEO’s. Corporations literally use the structure of ship charters. That is why all corporations must be “chartered.”
3. The false prophet that has deceived the world is naturalistic science, the official religion of the US Government.
4. Science is essentially elevating man’s knowledge to ultimate authority. Recognizing and praising authority is the biblical meaning of worship. Science claims to judge the truth or not of the Bible. All who claim, teach, and believe this are the man of sin just as all who trust in Jesus are the body of Christ. The truth is, the Supreme Court of the US who rules on morality is essentially lawless. Men have become this world’s God.
5. Until German-style nationalism was imported into the US by professors taught in the German schools in the late 19th century, the US was a Christian nation. Nationalism (idolatrous patriotism) was deliberately developed to turn Americans hearts from Jesus to the nation. Even Christians worship the Constitution and credit that for their liberty instead of the death of Jesus Christ. These literally worship the beast.
We can still love our country and not worship the evil government in Washington, D.C. that is responsible for spreading filth and God-hating to all the nations of the world. This Government is corrupt and evil but God is exposing its awful wickedness before the whole world. This is a bi-partisand wickedness.
6. Better come out of her (this money-driven world) that you do not partake of her adulteries.
7. Jesus Christ is gathering his people to save them from the punishment he is going to inflict on all those who do not proclaim his name. They willl prosper and flourish as he burns this wicked world just as the church survived the fall of Rome. Except this time, the Lord himself is returning to shine his light on his holy people to be admired by all who believe. (2Thes 1)
Varnel Watson
TRUE Philip Williams the righteous shall be raptured to heaven – the sinners left behind in a Tribulation with the devil
Philip Williams
Troy Day remember the tares are taken first, leaving behind the wheat.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams we do remember but you well know from exegetical point the 2 dont compare The saints are taken and they are NO tares just for starters – remember the wheat is taken FIRST before the tares and weeds are burnt?
Philip Williams
Troy Day Read your text again!
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams I did and posted my conclusion above
Philip Williams
Troy Day
weeds gathered first!
““As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.” Matthew 13:40-43
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams you must have not done much farming as it seems 🙂 They gather at the same time – the time of the rapture They are raptured from earth Only difference the grain is taken the weeds are left behind Read on
Philip Williams
Troy Day Read again! the tares are taken. The wheat left behind
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Not true – if the wheat is left behind there will be no harvest saved The tares are left on earth The harvest is taken and carefully stored or you it will rot on earth 🙂 Basic lessons from farming my friend You dont labor the harvest just to leave it behind – WHO does that?
Philip Williams
Troy Day
The angels are removing the tares from the earth just as he removed the wicked from the earth in the days of Noah. Only this time by fire.
Get it?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Sure – IF the world be set on fire would the church be left to burn with it too 🙂 Get it?
Philip Williams
Troy Day If Noah went through the water, the righteous can go through the fire. Get it?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Noah was TAKEN from the waters in the Ark not s submarine 🙂 Just like the saved souls will be taken in the church at the Rapture You should consult your KY friend on the function of his man built device BTW you are not very Pentecostal if you dont know the meaning of this song Listen closely https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyvA2P24Fno
Philip Williams
Troy Day I did consult my friend on how he built his(!) KY Ark. He got his timbers from down under, treated then in Norway, put together by the Amish.
Now the problem with you AoG is that you didn’t bid this world goodbye when you thought you got saved.
Louise Cummings
Philip Williams That’s at the end of the Thousand year reign. When the rest of the dead rises , that didn’t rise to go in the Rapture before , or at the beginning of the Tribulations. You go to Revelation. It’s along in the last few chapter , that it says the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years had pass. Then those that died in the Tribulations. Will rise. At the second Coming of the Lord. That will be mostly Jews He is calling His Elect. They are not going to rise and the Lord Carrie them up and come right back down. Because when He comes back to earth. His saints are coming with Him.
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce I like the very detail 7 pointer given by Philip Williams just ABOVE It proves the point that the church need be taken away from the world before it burns up
if the wheat of he harvest is left behind there will be no harvest saved The tares are left on earth The harvest is taken and carefully stored or you it will rot on earth 🙂 Basic lessons from farming my friend You dont labor the harvest just to leave it behind – WHO does that?
IF the world be set on fire would the church be left to burn with it too
of course NOT – and no church will survive the Tribulation
Philip Williams
Troy Day Maybe, the Name of the Lord is no strong tower?
Varnel Watson
are YOU Gonna Take A Trip On That Old Gospel Ship https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyvA2P24Fno
RichardAnna Boyce
Troy Day, Luke 19:11-27; 1 Cor 3:14; 2 Cor 5:10; and Rev 22:12 indicate rewards are given according to each believer’s degree of faithfulness to Christ.
Any believer who at the time of his death (or the Rapture) is denying Christ will be denied by the Lord at the Judgment Seat of Christ; before the Great Tribulation.
Jesus sets up His kingdom at the Second Coming; after the Great Tribulation.
The apostles “sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” in millennial kingdom. Israel will be regathered from the four points of the compass (Matt 24:31) and given an allotment in the land of Israel as an inheritance.
Great White Throne Judgment; unbelievers (Rev 20:11-14) will be judged to determine their degree of eternal suffering.
GWTJ “the end of the age” “the Son of Man” will separate the saved wheat from the lost tares. The unsaved will be gathered and “cast…into the furnace of fire” (i.e., hell).
The saved wheat will be welcomed into the millennial “kingdom of their Father.”
RichardAnna Boyce
Entering into a Rich Experience of Life in God’s Kingdom Now. Matt 13:24-30
We are being continually challenged to enter into a kingdom way of living now in this life. If works are required to ‘enter the kingdom’ in the future, and it needs to be cleansed of false believers, how does this agree with John’s faith-alone?
The parable of the Wheat and the Tares starts with Matt 13:24 and goes onto compare the kingdom with the world. It contains sons of evil but also belonged to the Son of Man, which can’t be the day present church. It must refer to the aspect of the kingdom beginning as in Matt 16:27 and Matt 25:31 when Jesus returns and begins His reign after sending angels to gather unbelieving tares out.
Steve Losee
there won’t BE a “church”. Individuals will be saved, but no church!
Philip Williams
Jesus’s church is his congregation of individuals. The gates of Hell will not prevail against his church.
Varnel Watson
some people maybe but no church
RichardAnna Boyce
i believe focus will be on dispersed non Messianic Jews worldwide, after the Rapture, which will be the church at that time being taken up.
Philip Williams
RichardAnna Boyce Nonsense!
Jesus Christ established his church and the Gates of Hell will not prevail against his church. You are into Dispensationalist nonsense!
Varnel Watson
powerful insightful inspiring TRUTH The Word The only true BIblical hope for eternity http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/rapture-vision-2019/
Philip Williams
Troy Day those people he heard screaming are those being taken away in destruction.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams You are correct – they are the LEFT BEHIND
Philip Williams
Troy Day Not at all. According to Jesus, these tares are being burned up by fire
Who on earth survived the Flood in Noah’s day?
Jesus compared his Second Coming to the Flood of Noah. The earth will again be cleansed of the wicked, this time by fire instead of water.
But this Left Behind are the righteous who will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of the Father and be admired by those who believe.
Varnel Watson
YES the tares left behind will indeed be burned into the lake of eternal fire – Jesus said it himself
Philip Williams
Troy Day The tares aren’t left behind. They are gathered first and then burned.
If we aren’t going to follow the words of Jesus, aren’t we going to be among the tares?
Varnel Watson
No one on earth survived the flood Philip Williams Just like Noah was taken before the wrath of God so shall the church
Philip Williams
Troy Day Shall we replace the Scriptures with a Hollywood fiction?
Philip Williams
“When the Lord goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.” Exodus 12:23
Philip Williams
“When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze.” Isaiah 43:2
Philip Williams
“There will be wailing in all the vineyards, for I will pass through your midst,” says the Lord.” Amos 5:17
Philip Williams
“Woe to you who long for the day of the Lord! Why do you long for the day of the Lord? That day will be darkness, not light. It will be as though a man fled from a lion only to meet a bear, as though he entered his house and rested his hand on the wall only to have a snake bite him. Will not the day of the Lord be darkness, not light— pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness? Amos 5:18-20
Varnel Watson
Great verses Philip Williams and none of them speaks about the Great Tribulation of course Here’s one that actually does
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of tribulation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Revelation 3:10
Philip Williams
Troy Day Those Scriptures do very definitely refer to the Coming of the Lord. They specifically say they do, though of course the blood applied at the Exodus is a type of his Salvation.
And yes, Rev 3:10 does also apply. They are being protected! From what?
Philip Williams
This also refers to the Second Coming!
“God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.”
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
RichardAnna Boyce
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10. It is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation [affliction] those who trouble [afflict] believers. The words tribulation and trouble are the noun and verb form of the same root (thlipsis and thlibœ). God also views it as righteous when He gives rest to those who are troubled.
Because of v 9, many commentators see this tribulation/affliction as referring to eternal condemnation. However, in light of the emphasis on the Rapture and the Tribulation in 1 and 2 Thessalonians, and the reference to the time when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in v 7, this most naturally refers to the Tribulation.
In light of v 12 the rest (anesis; also 2 Cor 2:13; 7:5; and 8:13 have the only other occurrences of this word in Paul’s epistles) means more than escaping the Tribulation and a cessation of present sufferings. It means ruling with Christ and being glorified together with Him. Present suffering for Christ will result in heightened service for Him in the life to come (cf. Matt 16:24-28; Rom 8:17; 1 Peter 4:13).
Many take the phrase those who do not know God to be equivalent to those who do not obey the gospel. However, it seems likely that the first phrase refers to unbelievers who have never heard the good news, while the latter refers to those who have heard but have rejected it.
All believers in one sense have come to know God (cf. Gal 4:9). And since God commands people to believe in His Son (cf. John 5:19-24,37-38; Acts 16:31), to reject Christ is failure to obey the gospel (cf. 1 Peter 2:7-8).
Unbelievers will experience flaming fire, a reference to the Tribulation wrath, which is God’s vengeance on a world that rejects His beloved Son.
1:9. Unbelievers shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power. In all but a few occurrences, the word translated everlasting (aiœnion) means unending or eternal. Thus Paul seems to have shifted his gaze from the Tribulation to the eternal fate of unbelievers.
The preposition translated from can refer to the source of the destruction (coming from the Lord and from His glory), or to the location of the destruction (away from the Lord and His glory). The latter is preferred contextually.
1:10. By contrast, Christ’s return (when He comes) will be a time when His glory will be on display in His saints. Believers will have glorified bodies (Rom 8:23) and will be sinless in character (Rom 8:30; 1 John 3:2). The Body of Christ will be a great manifestation of the glory of the Lord Jesus.
The additional expression and to be admired among all those who believe could mean that believers will admire Him. In that case the preposition en, translated among in the NKJV, probably would be better translated “by.” It is parallel to in His saints in the first part of the verse. It is possible that the ones doing the admiring are unfallen angels (1 Peter 1:12). However, the parallelism in the verse makes it more likely that believers will both be the reason why He is glorified and the ones who admire Him.
The Thessalonians will be among that group because Paul, Silas, and Timothy’s testimony among them was believed. This makes the Thessalonians eligible for royal status in the life to come, the point to which Paul leads.
Philip Williams
RichardAnna Boyce the gospel is a good deal more simpler and clearer than that.
All we need do is embrace the truth without flenching.
RichardAnna Boyce
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 is written to believers; it is not the Gospel for unbelievers.
Louise Cummings
Do you think the left behind series is all correct in the way they explain the Rapture and Tribulations. My grandson , read every book , I’m pretty sure. But the movie part. I don’t know if I agreed with every part. I guess it was just minor parts. It’s been so long., i don’t remember now just what I disagreed on. But every one seemingly was reading them. And it does give a sense of what the Rapture will be like.
Philip Williams
Louise Cummings
Perhaps, as in the case of Hal Lindsay’s fictional ‘Late Great Planet Earth,’ a few actually become believers through works of fiction. But I don’t think that is the way the gospel is intended to be preached. To begin, the gospel concerns truth not fiction. If we do that, how are new believers to know the difference between truth and fiction?
If properly preached, the gospel is interesting enough without the Hollywood imagination that can only degrade it.
Louise Cummings
Philip Williams so true. It might get some thinking , and cause them search it out. But some could be deceived.
Louise Cummings
Philip Williams
Louise Cummings
Philip Williams That’s for sure.
Varnel Watson
the RAPTURE is NEAR Philip Williams ready or not
Philip Williams
Troy Day I am only interested in whether Jesus is near. Didn’t he say that he is ‘coming back’(!) to receive us unto himself?
Why aren’t you interested in his plan for believers in the earth, the earth that the meek will inherit?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Sure but the Pope is obstructing
Philip Williams
Troy Day Pope is blocking God? ?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams the red scarlet woman riding the beast Who is she but the Catholic church?
Philip Williams
Troy Day No, the scarlet woman is this present money-driven wicked world.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams well hold on now – its clearly a RELIGIOUS system the way Revelation describes it It could as well be riding a financial system BUT so does the Catholic church in its history and present even today calling for control over the World Bank http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/pope-calls-for-central-world-bank/
Philip Williams
Troy Day There is already a Central World Bank. Have you never heard of the IMF and World Bank?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Civilization of money will disappear. The G9 control the world its economy and most of them are sanctioned by the Pope if not non-born again catholics
We need to understand that the old democracy already dying. In Europe, half of the population does not come to the polls – and not because of political apathy. A huge number of people confused not svoe representation in power I am not against the Parliament, municipal councils, etc.
You just need to create a new system of representation, new parties and movements. And this movement must come from below, from the bottom. http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/9-people-run-the-world/
Varnel Watson
most of these World Leaders Pray to Satan Philip Williams and are determined to fulfill his will on earth holding the Rapture OFF for a bit if they can of course http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/perry-stone-claims-world-leaders-pray-to-satan/
Varnel Watson
The Economist’s “The World in 2017” Grim Predictions was a résumé of the esoteric learning of the Egyptians http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-economists-the-world-in-2017-grim-predictions-using-tarot-cards/
Varnel Watson
the 2018 NEW WORLD Prophecy was based on this 1988 Title http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/2018-new-world-prophecy-based-on-this-1988-title/
Philip Williams
The world currency already exists. It is called the US Dollar. These Britons and just jealous that Great Britain no longer controls world trade.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams This is correct Proves my point The Church will need to exit via the Rapture ASAP – any day now
Philip Williams
Troy Day Already time for Pentecostals to exit the world! They should have done that when they claimed to have gotten saved from the world.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams TRUE – you are getting there And it will happen The BIBLE makes sure to tell us that much
Varnel Watson
Let’s face it Philip Williams Gary Micheal Epping there is a lot happening in the world around us to gain control over the church The anti Christ will be the final step in this global puzzle God is allowing the 7 years of Tribulation of course BUT HE WILL take his church out of it in the rapture because The Great Tribulation is NO time for the church to operate as RichardAnna Boyce has pointed out
Lets be real – since Michael Brown got involved with the US church the church has weakened especially the AG with rapid decline since the hoax boom in 2017 as we showed with Daniel J Hesse – but for REAL does anyone here believes really that
he, she, their children, grands and the church they go to are capable of going through 7 years of trial? Come one – such notion is simply unreal Wouldnt you agree – just political correctness alone and taxes and society are jerking the church like never before This church will simply fail under Tribulation http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/how-to-interpret-dr-browns-politicostalim/
Philip Williams
MB does get far too close to the world. I think that he is drawing back from the political extremes. He does listen to me, so I am looking forward to him drawing back from political involvement even more.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams I didnt mean to point him out alone of course Michael L Brown shared ONCE Why Evangelical Christians Should Not Support #TRUMP http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/michael-l-brown-shares-why-evangelical-christians-should-not-support-trump/
Varnel Watson
Michael Ellis Carter Jr. there a A FEW ways left for the CHURCH Impacts the Future http://churchinfluence.com/10-ways-the-church-impacts-the-…/
ChurchInfluence.com
1. The ability to say NO – politically taken away
2. Outsider focus – too much of it from the world today
3. Quick decision making – not there anymore
4. Flexibility – church is fat and lazy
5. A willingness to embrace smaller to become bigger – yeah right MEGA mentality is on the rise again
6. A quicker, lighter footprint – not for a fat church
7. An openness to questions – just ask a catholic bishop about child abuse to see openness of any kind 🙂
SO how is such church ready to pass Tribulation? All it does is passing gas eating burgers coke and fast food sermons from Joel or some other easy going TV star – Survive the Tribulation? – maybe in another world or age Tell me another one Philip Williams
Philip Williams
The church will impact the world when it becomes a light apart from the world,
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams that is ONLY in the Rapture and changing world AFTER the rapture upon returning WITH the Lord – Church cant do it without a physical resurrected Christ present as Angel Ruiz has shown us this to be a major NAR failure
Varnel Watson
Russell Moore rightly asked President Trump: Now What For the Church? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/russell-moore-to-president-trump-now-what-for-the-church/
Varnel Watson
Russell Moore rightly asked President Trump: Now What For the Church? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/russell-moore-to-president-trump-now-what-for-the-church/
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce Megachurch pastor Jentezen Franklin, a member of President Donald Trump’s evangelical advisory council, slammed Trump’s recent comments about immigration after the president reportedly called them shameful names http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/pastor-jentezen-franklin-on-president-trump/
Varnel Watson
MEMBERS OF TRUMP’S EVANGELICAL BOARD SHOULD QUIT BUT WON’T http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/members-of-trumps-evangelical-board-should-quit-but-wont/
Varnel Watson
Jentzen since has returned to the White House for regular board meetings and posts on social media praise videos HOWEVER many Pentecostal pastors and scholars wrote to President Trump: We call on you to repent! http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/pentecostal-pastors-and-scholars-to-president-trump-we-call-on-you-to-repent/
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce Megachurch pastor Jentezen Franklin, a member of President Donald Trump’s evangelical advisory council, slammed Trump’s recent comments about immigration after the president reportedly called them shameful names http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/pastor-jentezen-franklin-on-president-trump/
Varnel Watson
MEMBERS OF TRUMP’S EVANGELICAL BOARD SHOULD QUIT BUT WON’T http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/members-of-trumps-evangelical-board-should-quit-but-wont/
Varnel Watson
Jentzen since has returned to the White House for regular board meetings and posts on social media praise videos HOWEVER many Pentecostal pastors and scholars wrote to President Trump: We call on you to repent! http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/pentecostal-pastors-and-scholars-to-president-trump-we-call-on-you-to-repent/
Philip Williams
Troy Day First, I call on Pentecostal pastors and scholars to repent for so loving the world and even being part of the world.
Varnel Watson
William DeArteaga has rightly pointed us to CT articles asking: WILL MOST EVANGELICALS VOTE TRUMP, BUT NOT FOR TRUMP in 2020 – is SO what is the CHURCH got to do with the WORLD? Aint it time for the Rapture to take us away from this mess? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/christianity-today-is-asking-will-most-evangelicals-vote-trump-but-not-for-trump/
Varnel Watson
Robert Erwine has said some things we cant agree with but calling on Christian character and witness has not been one of them Our witness is GONE Just this week Vice President Mike Pence’s defense of his administration’s detention camps was criticized so heavily on Saturday that the hashtag #FakeChristian trended nationwide on Twitter. https://www.rawstory.com/2019/07/mike-pence-labeled-a-fake-christian-for-defending-inhumane-conditions-at-trumps-concentration-camps/
Philip Williams
Governing is difficult and most Christians have too little experience with these kind of things to make such judgments. Our focus instead ought to be on the church and those who claim to lead and teach the church.
RichardAnna Boyce
Revelation 3:9-13
A valid reason to place the first part of v 10 with v 9 is that, in his writings, the Apostle John seldom began a sentence (only 6 percent of the time) with the word because (hoti). Over 90 percent of the time the apostle states an effect first: e.g., “Then a great multitude followed Him…” followed by the clause “…because they saw His signs which He performed…” (John 6:2). In light of the fact that John rarely began sentences with the word because, a more accurate translation here would read: “Indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you because you have kept My command to persevere.”
Connecting these two verses fits well with the biblical teaching that Christ expresses His love in special ways toward believers who obey Him and take a stand for Him (cf. John 14:21-24). In Rev 3:8, Christ had just commended this church for obeying His word and now He is rewarding them because they obeyed His command to persevere. They would not give up even when their enemies were relentless. “The synagogue of Satan” refers to Jews who were antagonistic to Christianity (see also comments on Rev 2:9).
3:10 b. Christ promises His people that He will “keep (deliver) them from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” The hour of trial refers to a time of trouble that the entire Roman world would undergo in the readers’ lifetimes. That it is not referring to the Tribulation Period is clear as all Church-Age believers will be protected from that hour (via the Rapture). Here Jesus assures the obedient believers in Philadelphia that they would have His protection during this time of turmoil sent to trouble “those who dwell on the earth” (i.e., the unsaved; cf. 6:10; 11:10; 13:14; 14:6; 17:8).
3:11. Christ reminds His people that He is “coming quickly” (soon; see comments on Rev 1:1). Therefore they are to “hold fast” to their obedience and perseverance right up to the end (cf. 2:26). To give up on following Christ because of persecution and opposition is to allow the enemies of Christ to “take your crown,” that is, to allow them to cause you to forfeit the ultimate eternal reward of ruling with Christ forever in His kingdom (cf. 2 Tim 2:12-13). Eternal life is a free gift and cannot be lost but the reward of ruling with Christ forever requires faithfulness to the end (cf. 2:10).
3:12-13. Christ promises several different eternal rewards for the believer who overcomes (see comments on Rev 2:7). The believer who has been faithful to the end will become “a pillar in the temple of His God.” Since in eternity the Father and the Son will be the temple (cf. 21:22), this reward is probably an especially wonderful experience of nearness to God as well as a key position of support and prominence in God’s eternal kingdom. Second, the phrase “he shall go out no more” refers to the permanence of these rewards. Once these positions of honor and authority are given to the overcomer, they shall never be rescinded. He is securely set as a “pillar” in Christ’s eternal kingdom and as such will never be separated from this special relationship to God.
Also Christ “will write on him” God’s name and “the name of” God’s eternal city, “the New Jerusalem” as well as His own “new name.” It is unlikely that these will be literal tattoos; instead they are representative of the blessings the overcomer will enjoy as God identifies them as people who served Him faithfully on earth. The honor God confers on the overcomer in eternity will be as wonderful and real as if God Himself inscribed a literal mark on him that reads: “This is My beloved servant in whom I am well pleased” followed by His autograph. Since faithful believers openly confessed the name of Christ throughout their lives (cf. 3:8), Christ will identify them as His victorious ones forever.
Varnel Watson
The Rapture of the Church by Christ to take place before the terrible seven-year Tribulation period occurs.
In my time upon this earth spanning 8 decades, there has never been a “stranger” period of time compared to the current time, and especially over the last 4- 5 years in America. Having the advantage of observing human events over an extended period of time from a Christian, Bible-based perspective, makes it easier to understand the ‘big picture’ of events taking place around the world in the societal, cultural, political, religious, economic and moral realms of human interaction.
The stupefying, nonsensical, irrational, deceptive, evil, and just plain jaw dropping crazy behavior of international and national leaders and organizations, coupled with similar behavior by the general populations of various nations is all indicative of Satan’s demonic, diabolical involvement and influence in human affairs leading up to the time of the Rapture. Are you ready, PERHAPS TODAY!
Louise Cummings
I pray every day , for the Lord search my heart. And forgive any wrong. Maybe not not in those same words , every time. But I sure want my calling and election sure.
Varnel Watson
I have long asked this Daniel J Hesse Gary Micheal Epping
walmart is NOT taking online orders
is NOT delivering to home
is NOT doing curb pickup no more
and you can get only 2 of each like NOAH
yes – you can only get 2 eggs
How can a church that cannot survive coronavirus survive the Tribulation ? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/preventing-covid-19-in-faith-based-communities/
Daniel J Hesse
I prefer a 3 egg omlete.
Daniel J Hesse
Hold the cheese.
Jireh D Hormann
2 Thess 2:11-12 clearly states that God will send a delusion to those who remain. Only those who have not heard the gospel (look at Rev 14:6) are able to be in the tribulation, having to die for their faith, along with the remnants of Israel. (144k)
Varnel Watson
AND THERE it is …
Daniel J Hesse
Ask Jerry J?
Varnel Watson
cant survive even a small virus Tell me another one
Daniel J Hesse
Troy Day you are on a holy roll.
Varnel Watson
it cant Peter Vandever cant survive even a small virus Tell me another one Gary Micheal Epping you think 300 brand new church starters in AG are the same as 300 established churches? You got now clue of ministry then The 2018-2019 stats show decline Pls review before commenting BUT what it is to me right? My church is growing 10% a month = 100% per year when you exclude Easter and Christmas which are harvesting months. We’ve doubled in less than 24 months greatly affecting our area for Christ – a small church down from us got sold by their denomination under the elderly pastor before he retired They only told him the property sold when the deal is done Another one tried to train a young minister to replace him after retiring in 2020 and was cut off by state eldership. Your so called mega church is probably just taking other small churches that are closing down
Joseph Reeder
I love these books. That being said, there literally is no biblical evidence that the Church will be raptured before the Tribulation.
Varnel Watson
hahahahahah NOT the question here but if you think you got the ammo to discuss this one it could be arranged A.J. Bible Riccos Herodotou http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
Jireh D Hormann
Joseph Reeder There’s plenty of evidence for this I would be happy to share with you.
Theses are good books, however there is some theological errors in them as well.
Varnel Watson
SHARE if you care
Ray E Horton
They did make for enjoyable reading.
Varnel Watson
for ALL the ppl who will stay here left behind in the tribulation ie all who see the picture but didnt even read the Title or the article
Ray E Horton
Troy Day I just read it, and it is an interesting but good article against post-trib.
Varnel Watson
Ray E Horton well not really against anything JUST asking questions of HOW a church will survive Poppy Thompson may have more to add since he only eats learned bread 🙂
Ray E Horton
Troy Day I have actually been leaning toward mid-trib. Seems the most scripturally sound. Here is s good argument for mid-trib: https://www.nobts.edu/faculty/itor/LemkeSW-files/midtribulationism.html
Varnel Watson
Ray E Horton Im going home …
Ray E Horton
Troy Day Me too! Glory!
George Hartwell
I wish there was no tribulation or rapture theology so that we could all focus on what Jesus said about good stewards. Christians now think they will escape or leave the earth and believe and teach irresponsibility not good stewardship.
George Hartwell
Riddle: When asked what would you do if you knew that Jesus was returning tomorrow, what did Luther say? (and why?)
Varnel Watson
George Hartwell if you knew there was a rapture for sure what would you have done when left behind?
George Hartwell
Why would I do anything different? Why would I be left behind?
Varnel Watson
George Hartwell why would you be taken if you are not ready – why would anyone not get ready if they were warned ?
George Hartwell
Do I need to be warned? Does your theology require believers in rapture, trip etc. to act different than healthy Christians? What are you saying?
George Hartwell
Is that what you do in your church? Do you warn them of the coming tribulation and how to get ready?
Varnel Watson
George Hartwell Yes my theology expects rapture as the BIBLE teaches us clearly
Varnel Watson
can it? Doyle Rogers Poppy Thompson
Poppy Thompson
We have a saying in Australia, ” I think you have a few kangaroos loose in the top paddock”.
Varnel Watson
Poppy Thompson we have are saying around here If you get left behind dont count your loose kangaroos
Varnel Watson
by watching them right now I doubt that they can Robert Cox Neil Steven Lawrence Steve Losee Larry Dale Steele
Robert Cox
Troy Day If they can’t stand up for God right now I don’t know how they’re going to stand up for God after the rapture
Steve Losee
I believe Revelation shows that new believers will be raised up IN that time who’ll be able to stand
Lord’s Day Frog Memes
If you’re getting your eschatology from the Left Behind series… you might be a modern evangelical
Larry Dale Steele
They folded during the pandemic
Rob Erto
Read those books many years ago. Havent they been handily debunked at this point?
Andrew Chamberlin
Try reading this.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/thechurchinrevelation.html
Robert Conrad
I love those books
Leon Botha
Not what you wsnt to be using as a eschatology handbook series….far removed
Carol Shockett
But the church isn’t mentioned after chapter 4 of revelation, plus other scripture supports the church gone. I believe that people who are left behind and come to know Jesus after are the ones to go through tribulation. Plus it’s the time of bringing in the Jews back to God.
Andrew Chamberlin
I would like to refer you to this article.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/thechurchinrevelation.html
John Kenneth Tancock
the new jerusalem is dressed as a bride ready for her husband …..THATS the church.
John Kenneth Tancock
the great crowd of rev 7 THATS the church
Kate Marie Wendi
Who us being read you or them? Are you jealous? By the way Hitler’s debunking squads were debunking Germans if Christianity. Be careful who you want to ass cociate with.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Maybe the easiest solution would be to have a: Post-Trib Rapture Bible; with the words “left behind” & “thief in the night” & “caught up” & “Lord IN the clouds” – removed to compensate for weak hermeneutics? We can file it on the shelf next to The Message Bible transliteration.
Varnel Watson
this must be mid-Trib or 3/4 rapture crowd
John Kenneth Tancock
much of this thread assumes a particular and complicated understanding of ‘the end’ based on Daniel 9. Its not relevant, its fulfilled. we are promised in acts to go through many ‘tribulations’ to enter the Kingdom. Here are some more comments from me about this http://jtsblogspot.blogspot.com/2018/11/understanding-bible-about-end.html
Varnel Watson
stay rapture ready Neil Steven Lawrence Larry Dale Steele
Will Lene
First the futuristic speculations like those that have been made for decades (they all have one thing in common) would have to actually be proven as a correct Scriptural interpretation. With ongoing prognostication of future events, the perpetrators can never be held accountable since their speculations are continually pushed into the future. It’s very similar to what’s going on with the predicted climate change apocalypse.
Ben Sizemore
Pre-trib rapture is a lie.
Varnel Watson
Steve Conley are you a democratic leftist who is pushing the NAR agenda with NO education or experience to back it up? Answer my question here and each of he arguments presented by various scholars that actually know what they are talking about Thank you
Kent Anderson
Get on their knees and depart from being backslid and lukewarm….worldly minded “Christians”
Karen Pearson
Seriously, you have that row of books under ‘Pentecostal Theology’?
Brown Nnama
All the saints who be alive then will all go through great tribulation, nothing like rapture before tribulation in the Bible.
Laurie Lombard
Brown Nnama
THE GREAT DISTRACTION
Many Theologians are of the opinion that the Rapture Theory was invented to distract the Church from one of the greatest events that was about to happen, namely the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Azusa Street in Los Angeles in April 1906, which impacted the entire world. This distraction promoted the error that the Church was not God’s original intent, but only developed as it did (and continues to do so) because Israel rejected their Messiah. Thus God took hold of the heathens to form the Church.
The argument alluded to God having to remove the Church in the end in order that He can fulfil His eternal Kingdom plan with Israel. This would mean that God would have a dualistic interest in the earth:
* One spiritual, the Church (heathen); and
* the other one a natural land and national people, temple, and city (Israel).
This theory seeks to restore a natural nation, Israel, with all its cultural laws, Sabbath, and rituals. This would be in direct contrast with the words of Jesus:
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, tbey perceived that He was speaking of them (Matthew 21:43-45).
Chris Debisschop
Brown Nnama yep they sure did it happened in the first century just as Jesus Promised! Matthew 24:1… 34. Paul and Peter and the vast multitude of Christians were killed by Nero Caesar the beast of Revelation whose name calculated to 666.
Mike Forfar
Chris Debisschop 2Thess 2:7-8 “For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. (8) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming (parousia).”
The antichrist is destroyed at the return of Christ. this totally rules out Nero.
Chris Debisschop
Mike Forfar Nero was destroyed in 68, & Jerusalem was ransacked and the temple destroyed also as punishment judgment during his coming judgment exactly as he said!
Chris Debisschop
Mike Forfar When Jesus said he was coming soon to judge their apostasy he meant it, without delay, all fulfilled in that very generation! The general resurrection of mankind is yet future. To God be the glory!
Mike Forfar
Chris Debisschop are you think that this is the second advent of Christ when the resurrection and rapture takes place? what a joke.
Mike Forfar
i have a bible study with 7 identification marks for the 666 antichrist. and Nero scores 0/7.
http://3-angels.net/index.php?option=com_rokdownloads&view=file&Itemid=4&id=571:-the-666-antichrist-his-identity-revealed
Mike Forfar
Chris Debisschop the general resurrection is future.
ok so the return of christ that destroys the antichrist hasnt happened yet. that rules out Nero
Chris Debisschop
Mike Forfar you can believe whatever you want to believe as for me I know that Jesus was right, the Great Tribulation happened in that very generation just as Jesus said it would, 1st Century fulfillment! Amen!!
Mike Forfar
Chris Debisschop yes Jesus was right thats why you are wrong
Chris Debisschop
Mike Forfar nope Jesus promised that the Great Tribulation would be fulfilled in the first century, but that the bodily resurrection would take place at the last day.
Brown Nnama
Chris Debisschop no the great tribulation is yet start, and that should be during the reign of the Antichrist.
Steve Conley
Troy Day, I’m a pastor, who taught the pretrib foolishness for thirty years before I recognized that the period of unprecedented persecution of the saints that Jesus called great tribulation was not the period of God’s eschatological wrath. The time in which God’s wrath is poured out upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers is the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is distinct from the GT. The day of the Lord is the most spoken of event in the Scriptures. It refers to the period of Christ’s parousia, His arrival and continuing presence. Of all the expressions used for Christ’s second advent, the day of the Lord has a particular nuance, that emphasizes the eschatological wrath of God poured out in that future day (period of time).
The left behind series is pure fiction. It presents a situation in which the church is taken from the earth before the period of unprecedented persecution that Jesus said we would face. Yes, we are not appointed unto the wrath of God, but that wrath comes in the day of the Lord that follows the cosmic sign given by Joel and Peter, and spoken of by many others within the Scriptures. Jesus says that the great tribulation comes before the cosmic sign. They are not the same. You have been deceived, and you are now deceiving others by propagating this deception.
Notice the Scripture below.
Cosmic sign before the day of the Lord
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Cosmic sign after the great tribulation
Mat 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
The tribulation of those days in the context of verse 29 are those days of great tribulation spoken of in verses 21 and 22.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except THOSE DAYS should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
This cosmic sign is the very same one that John witnessed at the opening of the sixth seal.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Notice that God’s wrath in the day of the Lord can not come until after the events associated with the sixth seal. Then we see the unbelieving in fear hiding from the plagues of God’s wrath that are about to begin to fall upon then in that day.
Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man’s heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
But when the believers that have survived the great tribulation see the great earthquake and the cosmic sign we will be encouraged and look up because Christ is about to appear at which time our redemption will be complete.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
When we see the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars and the effect of the great earthquake (the sea and waves roaring) we will know that Jesus will arrive for us any moment. We will see Him coming in a cloud with power and glory.
The wrath that we are not appointed unto is God’s day of the Lord wrath. Notice the context of 1Thes 5:9.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
…
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
What I am presenting is the faithful teaching of the Holy Scriptures concerning Christ’s parousia and our gathering together unto Him. It is what today is called the PreWrath eschatological model.
Ron Shephard
Well said, Bro. Steve Conley
Stacy Turbeville
Steve Conley and that was beautiful except everything you just pointed out scripturally is the judgement on Jerusalem (the city that killed the prophets) and the Temple in the Great Tribulation of 66-70AD. The Day of the Lord was when God ended the Old Covenant Age and ushered in the New Covenant Age which happened when the Temple was destroyed and Heaven was opened to receive the Spiritual resurrection (Hebrews 9:8) when the power of the Holy People were shattered (Daniel 12:1-7).
David Allen Stryker
Preterism, like Futurism is a Jesuit teaching.
Varnel Watson
Bro. Steve Conley sorry for the delayed response. Some of us a first responders and work for a living which is a bit challenging in this time of crises for us. From what you said it is clear you became discouraged with pre-Trib eschatology and decided to turn to something more easy and reform as eschatology But based on all you just wrote there are so many problems with your eschatology that even Stacy Turbeville who is way out there at 70AD has problem agreeing with – and he is agreeing with a lot to make his eschatology work with the BIBLE Now that you have clarified that you were too pre-Trib do you still want me to answer your 2 questions from your eschatological search? I will answer them with great pleasure if you still would like the answers
Steve Conley
Troy Day Please do
Stacy Turbeville
That’s funny. The Catholic Church had this old biblical teaching hidden from the people, they didn’t invent it.
Varnel Watson
will do Steve Conley whcih OLD teaching? Stacy Turbeville that Jesus returned in 70AD and no one noticed?
Varnel Watson
Steve Conley NOT sure if you left my refutal of your pre-wrath man made teaching but here it is again for the record I am surprised that after 30 yrs pastoral work you switched to pre-wrath My education and experience in eschatology to quickly recognize your low-level questions I’ve been asked this before and have answered quite a bit here in with RichardAnna Boyce as early as 2016 http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/day-of-the-lord/
I have however been familiar with the pre-wrath system that you push It is a man made system not bible I call it 3/4 rapture b/c in your view it occurs pre-wrath blah blah The BIBLE makes no such distinction as you make hence your system is unBiblical and possible heretical I answered this in my 2018 topic Pre-wrath rapture? It’s basically, just another fake-news theology http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/pre-wrath-rapture-its-basically-just-another-fake-news-theology/
The person who conceived the “Pre-Wrath” view of the Rapture was a man named Robert Van Kampen (1938-1999). Van Kampen became one of America’s richest men through his involvement in investment banking. During his lifetime he accumulated one of the largest private collections of rare and antique Bibles in North America. In the 1970’s Van Kampen began developing the “Pre- Wrath” concept of the timing of the Rapture. Once he had completed his work on the concept, he started trying to find a well known person in the field of Bible prophecy to endorse his new view. That person finally turned out to be Marvin Rosenthal
I object to the 3/4 Trib Rapture because it violates the chronology of the book of Revelation. The sequence of events that is pictured in the book of Revelation clearly places both the Seal Judgments and the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel. And the Bowl Judgments are clearly contained within Daniel’s 70th Week, near its end. The 3/4 Trib view scrambles all this. The Seal Judgments are continued over into the second half of the 7 year period, the Trumpet Judgments are moved from the first half to the end of the second half and so on
I find this problem with the 3/4 preWrath particularly disturbing with pre-wrath position that maintains that Christ comes (parousia) to rapture His church, and then ascends to bring the church before the throne of God. Christ then is somehow “spiritually present” to bring judgment upon Antichrist’s dominion which rules the whole world. The problem is, if the parousia can be defined as Christ’s spiritual presence, then we can say that just like #NAR Kingdom now theology we are living today during the parousia and why not even the Millenium! This is especially true in light of passages where Christ says, “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them” (Matthew 18:20).
THANK YOU
Steve Conley
Troy Day You would do better to read original sources instead of other people’s work critiquing teaching you know nothing about. You appear to be all mouth and no substance. Or, as they say in Texas,
—— ALL HAT, NO CATTLE! ——
You reference a man who has passed on to be with Christ as the originator of this teaching. He is not even the originator of the name given to that system of the Biblical eschatology, “PreWrath”. I appreciate Van Kampen, although I never came across his work until I had already moved from the errors of pretribulationism.
You can’t even enter into a dialog by answering the two simple questions I gave you yesterday. Are you afraid that your false, decrepit pretrib system will be exposed to be the lie that it is? Is that why you won’t answer two simple and easy questions?
After 30 years studying and preaching pretribulationism, God was merciful to me, removing the blinders that prevented me from seeing the truth. I had studied the works of the most prominent writers and speakers within the pretrib movement. I defended pretribulationism with rigor. Years ago, I wouldn’t so much as give someone who believed as I do now the time of day. But our wonderful Saviour opened my eyes to see that I was wrong about so much within the sphere of eschatology. I repented and now I am preaching the truth trying to undo the harm I had caused.
After recognizing that the day of the Lord, and the eschatological wrath of God in it, cannot come until after the events which John sees at the opening of the sixth seal, I began to reexamine each of the supporting pillars of pretribulationism. The first to fall was the idea that the eschatological wrath of God begins with the events of the first seal. My reasoning went like this:
(Troy, since you know all the eschatological passages thoroughly, having 2 PHDs and all, there is no need for me to take up extra space and provide you with references. Oh, I forgot to ask you about what field of study those degrees were in. Animal Husbandry? Culinary Services? If it was anything to do with eschatology, you need to demand a refund. Maybe you should contact the authorities, a serious crime was committed.)
The Scriptures are very emphatic that the eschatological wrath of God takes place in the period known as the day of the Lord. There are many references to precursors (events which must happen first) of the day of the Lord. One of these precursors is the cosmic sign spoken of by Joel and repeated by Peter. They both say that this cosmic sign comes before the day of the Lord. In Rev 6:12-17 we see the cosmic sign and the arrival of the day of the Lord described by John at the opening of the sixth seal. If the eschatological wrath of God doesn’t take place until after the events of the sixth seal then it is not taking place in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th seal events. That wasn’t too challenging for you was it?
Next, if I remember correctly, I believe it was the idea that the great tribulation and the day of the Lord are the same that was shown to be a pretrib fabrication. Since the day of the Lord and the wrath therein comes after the cosmic sign, we should ask if there is a reference to the cosmic sign in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus tells us all about the period He called great tribulation? Yes, there is. Does the passage describe the relationship of the great tribulation to the cosmic sign? Yes, it does. Well, what does it say? Matt 24:29 says that the cosmic sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark takes place immediately after the tribulation of those days. The “tribulation of those days” is that great “tribulation” that Jesus says is unprecedented and called “those days” in Matt 24:21-22. So the cosmic sign takes place after the great tribulation, but before the day of the Lord and the eschatological wrath of God therein. That means that the great tribulation is something other than the period of God’s eschatological wrath.
Well, if the great tribulation isn’t the period of God’s eschatological wrath, what is it then? Let me tell you. The Olivet Discourse is Jesus’ answer to three questions. The first concerns the destruction of the temple (“when shall these things be”), the second and third are answered together because they both take place upon the same day (“what shall be the sign of thy coming [parousia] and of the end of the world [aion = age]”). Matthew only records Christ’s answer to the last two questions. Luke records the answer to the first.
When Jesus begins speaking in Matt 24:4 He is answering concerning the sign of His parousia (coming). He begins with a warning about not being deceived and then He describes a period He calls the beginning of sorrows, but says the end is not yet. (Please note that all these events that Jesus is speaking of take place within a single generation Matt 24:34.) Christ then connects the events that He calls the beginning of sorrows with the period that comes next with the use of the word “then” in verse 9. In that verse, He begins to describe the violent persecution of those who identify with Christ that He later calls great tribulation. He says that they will be delivered up to be afflicted [from thlipsis = tribulation, persecution], killed, and hated. In the next verse He indicates the violent persecution will be so severe that many will be offended, that is, they will depart from the faith, and betray one another.
Next, He says that the false prophets and the false Christs will deceive many. In verse 24 He indicates that the deception will come through lying signs and wonders performed by these deceivers. The wickedness of that day will be so great that Christ says the love of many will grow cold. Yet He says that there will be physical deliverance (salvation) for those who endure through this persecution unto the end (of the age). He says the end (of the age) will come when the Gospel has been preached in all the world.
In verse 15 Christ begins to provide more details about this period of persecution. The use of “therefore” connects the verse with the previous description of these days of persecution. He describes the event that will signal the beginning of this period of unprecedented persecution that He calls great tribulation. It is the abomination of desolation that Daniel spoke of. He says that when they see him, the Beast, the man of sin, stand in the holy place, those in Judaea should flee to the mountains immediately for then will be unprecedented great tribulation. In fact, He says that it will be so bad that He will cut it short to save some of the elect alive upon the earth in verse 22.
So we see that the great tribulation that comes before Christ arrives at the end of the age is characterized by the persecution of the elect and supernatural deception. Whereas the day of the Lord is characterized by the plagues of God’s wrath in the trumpet and vial judgments. They are not the same.
Please forgive me for poking fun at you in the first of my post, your attitude makes it almost irresistible.
Varnel Watson
Steve Conley OK so now you gonna troll every topic just to avoid discussing the pre-wrath heresy you hold 🙂 That speaks of some character ministry after 30yrs I for one have read most church fathers in the original I am old school and my professors in seminary back then made us read church fathers in greek and latin before quoting them So nice guess but wrong again As to the NT passages, I dont know about you in your so called 30 years which perhaps were in texas where churches have no websites and I cant find you being in ministry no where BUT beyond that I’ve translated the whole NT from Greek one time for each of my degrees Once from TR and once from NA as prerequisite so I will take you on ANY NT passage if you even know Greek HOWEVER what I am not going to do is argue with you on the just recently man-made heretical 3/4 rapture theory you call pre-wrath No Biblical author knew it No church father knew it You are better off with pre-Trib As to Mt 24 ? from your 30 yr experience you should have learned this is a text for the Jews – Jesus spoke to Jews there end of story Like I said try again but pls NO pre-wrath heresy that some one paid recently to be developed Good luck proving it
Stacy Turbeville
The whole series: trash!
Martin Snaak
Alle respect voor mensen die anders denken,na Mijn idee hebben jullie een kronkel in je hoofd .
Joshua Nathanael Nas
Martin Snaak very respectful indeed
Steve Forrister
If your saved, then your not left behind, period.. No one works their way to heaven, lest we should brag..
Stacy Turbeville
The ones taken are the lost. The ones remaining fled Jerusalem when that great tribulation occurred in 66-70AD. Reread Luke 17 and Matthew 24 (the days of Noah and Lot).
Joshua Nathanael Nas
Steve Forrister the rapture is not gonna happen.
What’s gonna happen is Judgment Day.
Steve Forrister
Joshua Nathanael Nas agree to disagree, but i respect your opinion
Joshua Nathanael Nas
Steve Forrister ??
Varnel Watson
BTW Steve Conley Stacy Turbeville yall are completely OFF topic and not answering the questions from OP but commenting on the picture You actually need to open and read before commenting further if you want to be on target Thank you
Alan Yusko
not an issue. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
Suzanne Dippner
Yes. Thanks for that. ??
Varnel Watson
Suzanne Dippner delivered us from the wrath to come #AMEN
Steve Conley
I skimmed through the foolishness in the OP and yes my previous response is exactly what is needed. The church will not be left behind. The rapture doesn’t take place until after the period of unprecedented persecution that Jesus called great tribulation.
BTW, few will survive the great tribulation.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, SHALL HE FIND FAITH UPON THE EARTH?
Troy Day, I’m a pastor, who taught the pretrib foolishness for thirty years before I recognized that the period of unprecedented persecution of the saints that Jesus called great tribulation was not the period of God’s eschatological wrath. The time in which God’s wrath is poured out upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers is the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is distinct from the GT. The day of the Lord is the most spoken of event in the Scriptures. It refers to the period of Christ’s parousia, His arrival and continuing presence. Of all the expressions used for Christ’s second advent, the day of the Lord has a particular nuance, that emphasizes the eschatological wrath of God poured out in that future day (period of time).
The left behind series is pure fiction. It presents a situation in which the church is taken from the earth before the period of unprecedented persecution that Jesus said we would face. Yes, we are not appointed unto the wrath of God, but that wrath comes in the day of the Lord that follows the cosmic sign given by Joel and Peter, and spoken of by many others within the Scriptures. Jesus says that the great tribulation comes before the cosmic sign. They are not the same. You have been deceived, and you are now deceiving others by propagating this deception.
Notice the Scripture below.
Cosmic sign before the day of the Lord
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Cosmic sign after the great tribulation
Mat 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
The tribulation of those days in the context of verse 29 are those days of great tribulation spoken of in verses 21 and 22.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except THOSE DAYS should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
This cosmic sign is the very same one that John witnessed at the opening of the sixth seal.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Notice that God’s wrath in the day of the Lord can not come until after the events associated with the sixth seal. Then we see the unbelieving in fear hiding from the plagues of God’s wrath that are about to begin to fall upon them in that day.
Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man’s heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
But when the believers that have survived the great tribulation see the great earthquake and the cosmic sign we will be encouraged and look up because Christ is about to appear at which time our redemption will be complete.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
When we see the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars and the effect of the great earthquake (the sea and waves roaring) we will know that Jesus will arrive for us any moment. We will see Him coming in a cloud with power and glory.
The wrath that we are not appointed unto is God’s day of the Lord wrath. Notice the context of 1Thes 5:9.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
…
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
What I am presenting is the faithful teaching of the Holy Scriptures concerning Christ’s parousia and our gathering together unto Him. It is what today is called the PreWrath eschatological model.
Varnel Watson
a pastor claiming 30 yrs of experience skimming and still cant se it It does NOT add up for me as genuine
Duane L Burgess
The Church is not “left behind.”
Varnel Watson
is not and will not be BUT many will be left behind
Stacy Turbeville
The rapture happened in the Apostles day. It was about resurrection at the end of the Old Covenant Age. Daniel 12 clearly reveals this. The angel tells Daniel to close the book it’s not time. In Revelation 22:10-12 Jesus said open the book the time is now, at the door, I’m coming quickly. Let the sinner stay a sinner. He’s talking about letters to the seven Churches of Asia in Johns day as John is going through the tribulation with them Revelation 1:9. Every time indicator in scripture supports this. Revelation 11:2 states the Temple as it’s still standing. The seventh would reign a short time. Nobody until Galba after Nero, reigned a short time-6 months. Nero was reigning til 68. The sixth was reigning when John is getting the vision. Nero was reigning from 54-68. It fits perfectly and only those two fit. The 144,000 are said to be the first fruits which means first believers (Revelation 14:4). That verse alone puts it in the first century. Luke 21:22 puts it plainly: all scripture is fulfilled at the time of the army’s destroying Jerusalem and the Temple. Period! Jesus returned as in the Old Testament on a cloud: symbolic language of judgement on a nation. Not a literal man on a cloud. Jesus will never again be a Son of man ( Luke 17:22). He comes without observation (Luke 17:20).
Varnel Watson
Stacy Turbeville delivered us from the wrath to come
Stacy Turbeville
Troy Day exactly. He was going to give them relief in Body soul and spirit. This means in their lifetime. By destroying the Old Covenant Israel who was persecuting them they would get relief.
Varnel Watson
Stacy Turbeville Thanks for the honorable mention Can you shows us JESUS who came back in 70AD? Where is He now?
Stacy Turbeville
Troy Day reigning in Heaven and Earth. He’s the image of the Father. He’s in us as the Holy Spirit.
Rhollie Paragas
“RAPTURE AND SECOND COMING ARE TWO SEPARATE END TIMES EVENTS”
Compare Scriptures with Scriptures> “Your Discenment Needed” [ 2 Timothy 2:15 ]
The rapture will involve an instantaneous transformation of our bodies to fit us for eternity. [1 Corinthians 15:51-54] “We know that when he [Christ] appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming.
At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).
At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4* Revelation 19:11–16)
THE CHURCH, made up of Saved Believers who have trusted at the Finished work of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4-The Gospel) and Accept the Lord Jesus as personal Lord and Saviour , are already been gone and WILL NOT BE PRESENT DURING TRIBULATION. The church will be removed from the earth in an event known as the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53*Daniel 12:1-2). The church is saved from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9* ‘Romans 5:9).
This is in contrast to the second coming of Jesus Christ return after the 7 years Tribulation, when “EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM” (Matthew 24:29-30* (Revelation 1:7).
Brown Nnama
Rhollie Paragas human ideology, not biblical at all, the saints will go through great tribulation before the saints will be taking away, Mathew 24:29-31, Acts 14:22.
Stacy Turbeville
The rapture of the dead from the Old Covenant Age and the Coming of Jesus in the glory of the Father all happened on the last day of the Old Covenant Age in 70AD. Once Heaven was opened after the last Earthly physical Temple was destroyed we now have access to Heaven immediately after physical death (Hebrews 9:8). Daniel 12:1-7 prophesied this whole event.
Varnel Watson
Stacy Turbeville you have and have shown absolutely NO Bible to prove that (Hebrews 9:8). Daniel 12:1-7 do NO prove it happened in 70AD and no one has seen Jesus then
Rhollie Paragas
Brown Nnama >Matthew 24:29-31>The Christ Second Coming> is once again to deal with the Jews, [Israel Nation] (Jesus Christ is confering to His Audience-the JEWS-Matthew 24…)The Very ELECT [ The Jews] …and NOT For THE GENTILES..* John 1:11* Romans 11:25-26*]
The TRIBULATION is a future 7seven-years period of time when GOD WILL POURED OUT HIS WRATH (Revelation 15:1,7*16:1*19:15) and Finish to discipline Israel (John 1:11* Romans 11:25-26) and Finalize JUDGEMENT to THE UNBELIEVING WORLD.
Analize this, Brown > Tell me and explain, [ If you are a GENTILE or belong to other Faith] where were you then, when Tribulation comes (If your conviction/ Stand-MID/POST TRIB RAPTURE..) are you Going to JUDAEA FLEE TO THE MOUNTAIN?-> [Matthew 24:16*Mark 13: 20-27 ] [Jesus Christ confering to his Audience-the JEWS- ISRAEL NATION ] the VERY ELECT…Matthew 24…NOT for GENTILE.]
Stacy Turbeville
The rapture happened in the Apostles day. It was about resurrection at the end of the Old Covenant Age. Daniel 12 clearly reveals this. The angel tells Daniel to close the book it’s not time. In Revelation 22:10-12 Jesus said open the book the time is now, at the door, I’m coming quickly. Let the sinner stay a sinner. He’s talking about letters to the seven Churches of Asia in Johns day as John is going through the tribulation with them Revelation 1:9. Every time indicator in scripture supports this. Revelation 11:2 states the Temple as it’s still standing. The seventh would reign a short time. Nobody until Galba after Nero, reigned a short time-6 months. Nero was reigning til 68. The sixth was reigning when John is getting the vision. Nero was reigning from 54-68. It fits perfectly and only those two fit. The 144,000 are said to be the first fruits which means first believers (Revelation 14:4). That verse alone puts it in the first century. Luke 21:22 puts it plainly: all scripture is fulfilled at the time of the army’s destroying Jerusalem and the Temple. Period! Jesus returned as in the Old Testament on a cloud: symbolic language of judgement on a nation. Not a literal man on a cloud. Jesus will never again be a Son of man ( Luke 17:22). He comes without observation (Luke 17:20).
Stacy Turbeville
Troy Day you will never see Jesus on earth again. Luke 17:22. Verse 7 of Daniel 12 tells us when the rapture occurs. WHEN THE POWER OF THE HOLY PEOPLE ARE SHATTERED. That was when they lost their city and Temple. Gods favor left them. You are getting your false teachings destroyed by truth and you can’t handle it.
Varnel Watson
Stacy Turbeville now that is STRAIGHT heresy my brother Eternity without physically present Jesus denies his resurrection, his power to resurrect himself, His victory over grace and death and your ONLY chance for eternal life after resurrection In essence your heretical teaching denies the GODs sovereignty over the creation, his plan for salvation and His sacrifice on the cross Neil Steven Lawrence Larry Dale Steele Philip Williams
Sandra Pensabene
Exactly!
Alexander Orme
This was modeled off the series from a post trib perspective.
https://bit.ly/2VAI1TI
Varnel Watson
As I’ve discussed with Philip Williams it cant – it just cant survive It is impossible indeed Michael Hodgson I can tell you are not Rapture ready Which basically makes you ready to be left-behind
Varnel Watson
Steve Conley I would like to call you out on your hidden pre-wrath heresy you dont explain openly for some reason Here is a GREAT question for you as a self-proclaimed 90s pastor with no degree to back it As they say in higher academia Big mouth with no degree to back it 🙂 But since you claim to be a pastor too The pastors will NOT be able to receive salaries, insurance or anything included in their package. Remember, if the church cannot buy or sale, neither can the pastor receive a salary. And even if a salary is given, what would the pastor spend it on without the mark of the beast? Tithing system – those are most usually set up with a paper check or some sort of electronic banking like debiting or crediting. With the mark of the beast, the church will NOT be able to receive those moneys and even if it does, it cannot operate with them to buy or sell anything.
What about church buildings – without the mark of the beast they will not be able to purchase any service – electricity, lights, internet, gas for church vans, insurance, special events, catering, food – no communion elements. Nothing at all. With no professional services available, a church building may last a few months, but will fall apart soon before the Tribulation is over… Just think about it
Seems to me apart from not knowing jack about theology your hold of pre-wrath 3/4 rapture ends with collecting govt PPP loan to save church building and your own salary of course
Alan Yusko
the church goes up on the rapture.. leaveing only the unsaved.. but many lost and professing false xians will be in that group left behind..
Varnel Watson
I agree with this Hence the prophetic warnings http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/3-pandemic-dreams-from-pastor-dana/
Martin Snaak
Luister naar Amir Tsarfati .
Mark Frost
what a cool collection
Doran Newton
by seeking Gods help
Jim Sprunger
The church overcomes by the blood of the Lamb, the word of their testimony, and because they did not love their life to the death. Rev. 12:11. That’s the way it is now in North Korea, China, Eritrea, and most Islamic nations so persecution on a global scale will only be a change for western Christians. Look around, there are changes occurring even now.
Varnel Watson
refers to now and not the Tribulation? – what are you saying
Donovan McCormick
There are those of us who believe we are doing through the first six seals of Revelation.
Varnel Watson
and do what?
Donovan McCormick
Troy Day Many believe the biggest outpouring of The Holy Spirit will happen at 5hat time.
Donovan McCormick
Troy Day I have heard it said that many persecuted Christians believe we are going through much of it.
Brian De House Newberry
There is only one Church, one faith, one baptism
Varnel Watson
“Secret Rapture” is not a doctrine that was created by JN Darby James C. Morris has the proof Steve Conley will you pls provide us with a short video of your teaching instead of these lengthy copy pastes that you did not author?
James C. Morris
Steve Conley you are making completely unfounded assumptions about the conceptual basis of Dispensationalism. And your claims about its source have been conclusively refuted.
Steve Conley
Troy Day I’m the author of nearly everything I post, and I credit others on the few occasions that I post small portions of the work of others. It is a common leftist tactic to charge your adversary with the crimes that you actually commit. You seem to have a lot in common with them. You can’t discuss a text, all you do is post links to articles. Maybe it is you who is cutting and pasting other people’s work.
James Moris, No one believed or taught the eschatological system that today is called pretrib dispensationalism until Darby. You have refuted nothing. All you have done is show everyone your wanton need to find pretribulationism in every ancient text. In great detail, a year ago, I thoroughly refuted your attempt at making Irenaeus a pretribber.
Daniel Finlay
Pre wrath is where it is at.
Varnel Watson
yap all the heresy is there in that man made teaching Pre-wrath rapture? It’s basically, just another fake-news theology http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/pre-wrath-rapture-its-basically-just-another-fake-news-theology/
Rudy Alviz
If you are member of church the BOC no one will left behind.left behind will tragic end they should endure great suffering to be save
Varnel Watson
if you are member of the gog and magog you will be left behind for sure http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/will-gods-wrath-be-poured-out-only-in-last-3-5-years/
Varnel Watson
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-god-delivering-his-wrath-right-now-on-us/
Nancy Smith-Williams
The Church will never be “left behind”.
Varnel Watson
true that for the true church
Rob Fowler
The same answer to the question “Who preserves the Church in ALL situations? — God.
Varnel Watson
not during the wrath of GOD which comes as Gods judgment over the world Who will then protect you from the wrath of GOD?
Rob Fowler
Troy Day God protected Noah and his family from a worldwide demonstration of His wrath- why would He be limited in protecting His people again while the rest of the world burns?
Varnel Watson
Rob Fowler in the same way GOD took Noah out to protect him God will take the church out before the Tribulation to protect it You got that right Dont get left behind
Rob Fowler
So you think Noah and his family left the planet?
Varnel Watson
Rob Fowler they wernt touching earth Thats for sure Except if you are building an interstellar Ark to take a trip on the good ol Gospel Ship you get ready for the Rapture
Rob Fowler
I don’t think you are thinking this though – you are now impying the US Navy ships are no longer somehow on earth?
Varnel Watson
Rob Fowler I am not implying ANY of that I believe in the pre-trib rapture Your Noah allegory with NAVY ships is not Biblical and the least to say strange
Varnel Watson
Rob Fowler I am not implying ANY of that I believe in the pre-trib rapture Your Noah allegory with NAVY ships is not Biblical and the least to say strange I stated WHY clergy will have HARD time getting paid and churches surviving Peter Vandever Jim Price
Steve Losee
there won’t BE a “left behind church”. It’ll be a different season. There WILL be believers, but no more organism called “the church”.
Varnel Watson
AMEN
Russ Taft
The Church won’t be “left behind” because that notion is foreign to Scripture. We will be here to witness the glorious return of Jesus Christ
Varnel Watson
Russ Taft I just found that notion that you called foreign to Scripture
Matthew 24:40 Two men will be in the field: one will be taken ..and one will be left behind.
Guess what that notion may be foreign to you but it certainly aint foreign to the Holy Scriptures
Russ Taft
Troy Day Matthew 24 is not referring to a secret rapture of the saints. Jesus says clearly that the entire passage refers to His glorious second coming. “Watch therefore for the Son of Man is coming at hour you do not expect.” Does he have three comings? And being “left behind” in this instance is a good thing: he compares it to Noah and his family being left behind while the wicked were all taken away by the flood. So it’s Christians who will actually be “left behind” when the wicked are destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ
Chris Baudean
Russ Taft God bless those with eyes to see!
Varnel Watson
Chris Baudean could you tell us HOW would you survive the tribulation through faith if your faith is so weak that you are left behind? Russ Taft so with your mistaken exegesis Jesus comes on earth, the righteous are taken to WHAT? and the rest is left on what – see how it just dont make sense now?
Chris Baudean
The whole church will go through the tribulations so please read the books! Lol its all false doctrine!
Varnel Watson
now sure what bookS you’ve read that teach you false doctrine BUT this here BOOK says one is taken one left behind HOW would you survive the Tribulation us up to you
Chris Baudean
Troy Day my brother you had better hope that YOU can because there is no such thing as a secret rapture.
Varnel Watson
Chris Baudean all saints of all ages have hoped READ this
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103529.htm
Varnel Watson
Russ Taft since Chris Baudean helped you go OFF topic now would you pls come back to OP and answer the question as of HOW would a church survive? The scenario of OP lists quite a few difficulties you must overcome through faith during the Tribulation
Varnel Watson
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103529.htm
Alan Smith
We are surviving, now.
I’ve heard some theologians say, it’s already started.
Guess Pre-Tribbers were wrong.
I just hope Post-Tribbers are wrong, too.
Louise Cummings
I hope pre Trib. is correct. God always took those that feared Him and loved Him and obeyed Him. He always took His Children to safety. And He will do it Again.
Alan Smith
Louise Cummings hope, but not wanting to let that rock my theology. God has got me, either way
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey Neil Steven Lawrence we know Philip Williams has a top floor Penthouse at the KY Noah-like boat and there he shall be saved
Anonymous
“Survival” will not be a goal nor an option for people who missed the Rapture and for all who come to faith in Jesus during the Great Tribulation. The only goal and option will be to stand up for Jesus. This will include being socially ostracized, canceled, job loss, no buying nor selling (Rev. 13:17), being arrested, tortured, and slaughtered with the sword (Rev.7:9, 14; 13:10, 15; 20:4). “And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the Word of God.” Rev 20:4
“He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.” Rev 13:15 Nope – survival is not the proper descriptive word for Tribulation believers.
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence 1/2 of earth’s population dies in a few short months Terry Wiles That’s a BAD deal to have to chose b/w Link Hudson -n- Brett Dobbs I am not worried about Dan Anthony passing trib Jeffrey Snyder
Anonymous
Troy Day Yep, it’s not called “GREAT” for nothin’ !
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence agreed, it’s about standing fast in the faith
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs good luck with standing fast when 1 of 2 will die
Anonymous
Troy Day We don’t get to choose when Jesus will rapture the church. One’s eschatology doesn’t make it happen one way or another, especially if one’s eschatology is not taught in scripture.
Where does the Bible teach that there will be a rapture _of the church_ before the tribulation. It would be easy to settle this years-long discussion by posting such a scripture.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs but that sure doesn’t sound like it describes the 2 witnesses at all… they not only will stand up for their faith no one will be able to touch them without themselves being killed.
Anonymous
James Pinkerton that is correct for a season. Until eventually power is given to overcome them.
Anonymous
Link Hudson No we dont So insisting its post-trib is just plain non-biblical Like Neil Steven Lawrence every best be rapture-ready now
Anonymous
James Pinkerton sounds like NOT believing in resurrection
Anonymous
The saints of the true Church that Jesus is building will not be left behind – and don’t get caught up in the speculative fiction. Focus on the Truth behind Left Behind.
God is working His eternal sovereign plan to redeem. While there is none righteous and no one seeks after God, God has determined to redeem. Those He chose in Christ in eternity past will come to Him. None will be lost.
Stick with doing God’s work God’s way: proclaim the Gospel and make disciples.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess …do you see any free will in that.??.
Anonymous
Skip Pauley
it is possible to have free will while acknowledging God‘s sovereign election. They are not mutually exclusive as Calvinists wrongly teach. 
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence …it’s the free will of man that allows him to freely choose to serve or not serve God……. God’s sovereign election, consist of all the born-again that freely chose to take up their cross and follow God when He called, and the Holy Spirit convicted them that they were a sinner headed to a devil’s hell, unless they repented of their previously committed sins, and placed their faith and trust in Jesus, to be saved, by and through His never-ending Love and Grace…amen…
Anonymous
Jesus will never leave or forsake us!
Anonymous
The true Church that Jesus is building began at Pentecost and is completed when these times of the Gentiles is finally coming to an end. God will focus His attention once more on ethnic national Israel (Zechariah, Romans 9-11, etc.). The Church will be taken in the Pre Trib rapture (we shall not all sleep but we will be changed).
God will be redeeming people during the 7 year Tribulation but they are not Church saints. They are Tribulation saints.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess The true Church that Jesus is building began at Pentecost and is completed when these times of the Gentiles is finally coming to an end. The True church will not be here during the Tribulation Gary Micheal Epping and BTW there is not a single scripture about manna during the Tribulation – not1
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess false doctrine
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs how do you mean?
Anonymous
The church. When we’re these called up?
Revelation 7:9-17 (KJV) 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
They got raptured. Resurrected.
Just the same as:
Revelation 19:7-14 (KJV) 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 (KJV) 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Anonymous
Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation
THAT JOHN do not know these but knows the 7 churches
simply proves these are NOT the 7 churches raptured in Rev 4:!
Brett Dobbs can neither prove that this is THE CHURCH nor that these CAME UP in ch 7 and not earlier and just now being showed in ch. 7
John Mushenhouse Michael Chauncey Duane L Burgess may know more
ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως
coming out the tribulation
denotes escaping/coming out it before it occurs
the present participle ἐρχόμενοι cannot refer to the moment when they appear since they are already in heaven and quite obviously not currently coming out from the tribulation … JUST something to think about with @everyone here, Terry Wiles https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-revelation-will-not-be-televised/
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs You ask good honest questions. Most do not. Going through the Book verse by verse seeking literal interpretation, That, coupled with multiple other scripture from the old and New Testaments affirm it.
As others note the scriptures generally answer the questions. Blessings.
Anonymous
Terry Wiles in this particular topic, I repeat questions that I originally had after I was taught and held the pre trib position.
I would study this for about month straight. And then leave it for a few months and then come back to it. And after about a year, of just focusing on the word and not teachers I began to come to different conclusions. But then I would listen to really good pre trib teachers, I began to find holes in their teachings.
I do try to carefully dissect the word. And look at it from all angles.
I want the full truth of the word. Regardless of if it makes me feel a certain way or not.
Even when it comes to the creation account. Do I let my logical understanding of science define how I interpret the creation account, or do I just read the creation account for what it says?
Do I take the text literally there? Or do I first take science as fact, then read my science into the biblical creation account?
So I could say the heavens and earth was made in 6 literal days or I could say, well technically blah-blah-, and this could mean that each day represents a cycle that could be a total of 4 billion years.
My point is, I want biblical truth that was given by God and not man. And often times we mistakenly read things into the text that isn’t there. We allegorize things that we shouldn’t allegorize, we make things say what we want them to say.
Yes, the Bible is full of allegories, but, we must be careful with them. We must ask if the allegory is revealing a hidden truth or something that we’re wanting to see.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs I understand your position now. It is difficult for many to be a literalist.
Scripture generally explains scripture. When it does not there are clues as to what is meant and in some cases direct references to the fact that it in fact is a “sign” or allusion to something.
In other limited places there is simply no answers and one is left to say “I do not know.”
It is my belief that God intends most to be understood by His people. Some live more in the realm of “questioning”. Others are self ignorant of the written Word and its interwoven revelation. And others simply listen to their favorite prophet and fill their life with the merchandise of man.
My constant prayer is that God will help me present Faithfully His word. My standard admonition to those who listen is “I am going to speak to your mimd, please ask the Holy Spirit speak to your heart.
I am in agreement in wanting biblical truth to be from God and not from man.
All for souls!
Anonymous
Terry Wiles ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως
coming out the tribulation
denotes escaping/coming out it before it occurs
the present participle ἐρχόμενοι cannot refer to the moment when they appear since they are already in heaven and quite obviously not currently coming out from the tribulation … JUST something to think about
Anonymous
Troy Day already thought about it and totally agree.
Anonymous
Terry Wiles so do Brett Dobbs Philip Williams and Robert Cox
Anonymous
Troy Day these are the ones who came out of the great tribulation.
These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
These are they which came out of tribulation great and have washed robes there and made white in the blood of the lamb.
καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ Κύριέ σὺ οἶδας καὶ εἶπέν μοι Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν στολὰς αὐτῶν ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου
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Anonymous
basically Duane L Burgess Brett Dobbs Philip Williams John Mushenhouse https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-revelation-will-not-be-televised/
Anonymous
Troy Day before Jesus comes, before the rapture, the stars will fall from the sky. He appears in the sky like lightning!
Anonymous
Philip Williams Jesus does not come before the rapture – get it together AS Duane L Burgess stated There are two important elements of apostasy in the time of the end and you define them BOTH:
1. We see many local churches compromising, and we also see tares departing from the churches, the so called, “deconstruction.”
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons… I Tim. 4:1
2. There is also “THE Apostasy” (definite article in the Greek text indicates a particular event). This is in the middle of the Tribulation when Satan is cast down, knowing his time is short (Rev. 12) and indwells the world ruler. He enters the Temple and declares himself to be God – THE apostasy of all apostasies. He breaks the covenant with Israel and persecutes the saints.
…for it [Day of the Lord] has not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the sanctuary of God, exhibiting himself as being God. II Thes. 2
Anonymous
“The Revolution Will Not Be Televised” is a satirical poem and song by Gil Scott-Heron. Scott-Heron first recorded it for his 1970 album Small Talk at 125th and Lenox, on which he recited the lyrics, accompanied by congas and bongo drums. A re-recorded version, with a full band, was the B-side to Scott-Heron’s first single, “Home Is Where the Hatred Is”, from his album Pieces of a Man (1971). It was also included on his compilation album, The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (1974). All these releases were issued on the Flying Dutchman Productions record label.
The song’s title was originally a popular slogan among the 1960s Black Power movements in the United States.[2] Its lyrics either mention or allude to several television series, advertising slogans and icons of entertainment and news coverage that serve as examples of what “the revolution will not” be or do. The song is a response to the spoken-word piece “When the Revolution Comes” by The Last Poets, from their eponymous debut, which opens with the line “When the revolution comes some of us will probably catch it on TV”.[3]
It was inducted to the National Recording Registry in 2005.[4]
In 2021, it was ranked at No. 258 on Rolling Stone’s “Top 500 Best Songs of All Time”.[5] Wikipedia.
Anonymous
https://faculty.wts.edu/posts/why-is-the-number-of-the-beast-666/
Anonymous
No true Church is Left Behind.
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Anonymous
Biblical eschatology is Pre-Trib rapture and Premillennial return of Christ.
God has future plans for ethnic national Israel.
Anonymous
SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT: Biblical Eschatology.
In sound biblical hermeneutics & exegesis there is no allegorizing, no spiritualizing and no replacement theology.
It has been wisely said, do not present your eschatology until you master Zechariah.
God has one Redeemed people, but He deals with the saints in various ways from generation to generation.
God also has unique distinctions for ethnic national Israel and for the Church.
The Church is not, in any way, Israel.
The Church has dealt with error from its beginning, 2000 years ago.
The churches got some things wrong and some things right.
Paul would establish local churches, then he would turn around and issue correction and even rebuke.
The Church fathers got some things wrong and some things right.
Premillennial eschatology is taught in Scripture and was believed in the early Church (Chiliasm).
The Pretribulational Rapture is taught in Scripture and was believed in the early Church.
The Church has mistakenly been moving away from sound biblical eschatology since the first century.
Amillennial and Post Millennial beliefs have no exegetical biblical support.
There is no biblical or historical fulfillment yet of Daniel’s 70th week. God has future plans for ethnic national Israel, to purge and cleanse that people in great tribulation, her time of Jacob’s trouble.
To get prophecy and Scripture right we must embrace God’s unique distinctions for ethnic national Israel and for the Church.
Anonymous
https://www.pentecostalnews.com/2023/08/10/coming-august-20th/