| Gwynn Poole |
Where? |
| Timothy Nail |
I had the sane thing at a Methodist church last night and a tongue talking Methodist pastor. It is wonderful to know God’s Kingdom extends beyond borders. |
| ButchNida Eluna |
God is awesome! |
| Brody Pope |
Revival. |
| Brody Pope |
I only spoke to the preacher. He said he was praying at the altar and began to speak in tongues and does it regularly. |
| Brody Pope |
I believe its his prayer language. I’ve never heard a message in tongues given out and interpreted in a baptist church. |
| Gwynn Poole |
I have many times! |
| Link Hudson |
БиблиÑта Тв If he spoke them in a gathering of the church and there were no interpreter, he should have stopped speaking in tongues. If he was using the church ‘altar’ as a place of private prayer, that’s different. |
| Timothy Carter |
Link Hudson that altar is still in public.That’s what I was trying to tell you on the other thread and you smart at all to me and question me and said something like did Jesus say that my house should be a house of tongues?We as Pentecostal in the Church of God has a history of praying in tongues.We have a history of having our own individual prayer language. We don’t actually physically have to be in the altar to pray for example I’m not in a church right now and I can play right here. Or I can go to church and sit in a few and I can free from my Pew. I can pray from the choir.The tongue that this pastor has experienced there is no need for interpretation it would be rude of Holy Spirit to interpret that man’s prayers and Holy Spirit is not rude. It would be dis obedience of that man to quit praying in tongues he would be quenching the spirit which is disobedience of the word if he refused to pray in tongues.Brother Link please do more research before you leave people astray. There is more than interpretation of tongues. We do not need our prayers interpreted. I gave you the verses in the other thread. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter, you wrote, “It would be dis obedience of that man to quit praying in tongues he would be quenching the spirit which is disobedience of the word if he refused to pray in tongues.”Please show me scripture to support that idea. Paul’s instructions (commandments of the Lord that any prophet or spiritual person should acknowledge) leave people who COULD speak in tongues not speaking in tongues unless there is an interpreter. It’s something that is stewarded. The idea that if you can speak in tongues at a particular moment and if you don’t contradicts what Paul teaches in the passage. Look at verse 28. That man CAN speak in tongues. But he is not supposed to because there is no interpreter. He is to keep silent. That means he can control it. You don’t know if a man’s prayer in tongues is personal and private if it is interpreted if it isn’t interpreted, because you don’t know what he is saying.But if it is in church, we wouldn’t expect someone to stand up and pray out loud in English about something so personal they wouldn’t want ot discuss it. Why would they do it in tongues? At least if they did it in English, we could agree. If they do it in tongues, they are cutting into time that could be used to actually edify other people…. unless there is an interpreter who is able to interpret and to edify others. There are those who would argue that speaking in tongues HAS TO BE prayer if it is the real thing, since he who speaks in tongues speaks not to men, but to God. I’m not convinced of that, but some interpretations are prayers addressed to God, and were at Azusa. Btw, I meant no disrespect in the past post. I was trying to point out that applying Jesus’ statement about the temple being a place of prayer to speaking in tongues in church meetings was a big stretch. |
| Link Hudson |
БиблиÑта Тв What do you mean? Timothy Carter was talking about a pastor who prayed in tongues at an altar. He didn’t say this was the pastor’s first time. |
| Timothy Carter |
Link Hudson I don’t understand why you constantly referred to Azusa Street.Azusa Street is not my heritage. I am NOT impressed with Azusa Street.Church of God was here before Azusa Street.Us to me for Scripture to support what I was saying and you gave yourself the answer.You said because he who speaks in tongues speaks not to men but to God.If I’m speaking to God is not a man to business what I’m saying.What God says to me is none of your business what God says to me and when I say to God is none of your business what I said to God that’s between God and me.When I say you there I’m not talking to you my brother I’m talking to you the general population.Salvation is both a personal and a communal event.Because it is both personal and communal it happens simultaneously on a personal basis and a communal basis. We are to have a relationship with God personally and communal meaning within the community simultaneously. There is no Scripture to support God is anti prayer!Yes I put exclamation points behind it because it seems that something is not getting through. The Apostle Paul is not anti prayer.When we are praying in tongues we are praying to God not to man man does not need to understand our prayer. It’s none of man’s business.Who are you to tell me to go home and pray that I’m not allowed to pray in church? This is my father’s house.This house this my father’s house I am a member. This is where I come to worship as I worship Holy Spirit begins to move Holy Spirit gives me the utterance to pray in tongues. Now who are you to tell me to quench His spirit?Why does he give me the ability to pray in tongues during the time I’m at church if he doesn’t want me to pray in tongues while I’m there?I’m talking about really praying in tongues not a bunch of gibberish. I’m not talking about some nutcase blabbing off in stupidity. I’m talking about real prayer in real tongues.Holy Spirit knows what he’s doing.Why would Holy Spirit enable someone to speak the holy language in the wrong place at the wrong time do you think he don’t know where they’re at? Are you calling Holy Spirit stupid? |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter, Wow, I think you would be blessed by spending some time really reading and meditating on I Corinthians 14. It seems like you have a lot of assumptions that run contrary to some of the truths revealed in this chapter.First of all, are you calling the church building “God’s house.” In the Old Testament, there were rival buildings to the temple of God in the specific place the Lord chose on the temple mount called ‘high places.’ When kings did not tear down the high places during their reigns, that was a bad thing. A church building is not supposed to be treated like a ‘high place.’ When Jesus said that His Father’s house shall be called a house of prayer, He wasn’t talking about your local church building. The Bible indicates that believers, individually and collectively, are the temple of God and the temple of the Holy Ghost. But when it comes to our meetings, we are given some specific commandments of the Lord. And Paul is pretty emphatic there that these commands are serious business. Any one who considers himself a prophet or spiritual should acknowledge that they are commandments of the Lord. Look up in I Corinthians 14 to see what they are. Paul gave a command regarding the speaker in tongues keeping silent in the congregation, and speaking to himself and to God.Why would God enable you to pray in tongues if he didn’t want to? I think that’s the wrong question. The Bible shows that there are times someone may be able to speak in tongues, but shouldn’t. Your question as to ‘why’ is an academic one, but doesn’t have much practical application, IMO.I’ve always been able to pray in tongues whenever I prayed since I was baptized with the Holy Ghost. Lots of believers experience this. Others seem only to be able to at certain times. if I can speak in tongues right now, does that mean I should? If I can speak in tongues really loud while riding on the bus, does that mean I should? If I have a gift to teach or exhort, and I am able to do so at church, does that mean that I should do so while someone else is teaching or exhort? Every time brother Smith opens his mouth to teach, should I open my mouth to teach? No. I can, but it’s not the right way to do it. If we take turns, people can hear and be edified. But I Corinthians 14 absolutely proves beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt that there are times when one can speak in tongues that he shouldn’t. In verses 27 and 28 I Corinthians 1427 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.The guy in the scenario in verse 28 is able to speak in tongues, but is supposed to be silent in the congregation. If he chose to, he may be able to shout in tongues at the top of his lungs. But that doesn’t mean he should.Paul even specifically addresses the problem of the uninterpreted prayer in church. It is in that context that he said that IN THE CHURCH, he’d rather speak 5 words with the understanding that he may instruct others, than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue.I Corinthians 1416 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.Was Paul crossing a line, violating the Corinthians individualistic rights to pray anyway they wanted to by writing verses like 17-19 and 27-28? The Bible doesn’t say that our church meetings are to be a ‘house of prayer.’ We should pray, but verses like 17 and 26 indicate that even praying falls under the general principle of ‘let all things be done unto edifying.’ If we gather together, our prayers should be done in an edifying manner. It should be done in a way where others can hear (either the prayer or the interpretation) so they can agree with it (v. 16.) The Bible doesn’t say that the purpose of our church meetings is to worship, or to experience God, or to praise the Lord. There is certainly a place to do all of those things. But it does say ‘Let ALL THINGS be done unto edifying.’ Spiritual gifts are to be stewarded properly. I Peter 410 As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.As far as Azusa Street goes, the Azusa revival had quite an impact on the COG, especially as far as initial evidence doctrine goes. Something happening at Azusa doesn’t make it right. Something happening in a schoolhouse in NC many years earlier doesn’t make it right. COG heritage isn’t always right. We shouldn’t make a tradition of leap frogging (or was that fire-baptized holiness) or snake handling. If some old timers at Azusa or in the COG did something contrary to the Bible, we should follow the Bible, not them. Too much adherence to tradition and heritage can be quite a stumbling block. It’s one of the reasons some people are totally against speaking in tongues. One reason I mention Azusa and COG is because our Bulgarian friend has taken to calling some of the old tried and true beliefs I acquired in the A/G ‘Baptist.’Btw, I’m the type of person who can discuss theological topics without getting angry. I don’t mind if someone else pokes a hole in one of my arguments. I’ll read and consider, and make poke a hole in theirs if there is one. I don’t mean anything bad by it. I hope you don’t take my approach personally. |
| Timothy Carter |
Link Hudson I don’t believe you fully understand who Holy Spirit is. I don’t think you fully understand what Holy Spirit does. If you did you would not believe that I have assumptions about Holy Spirit or about this chapter. We cannot understand Holy Spirit by looking at one small portion we must rightly divide the Word of truth. This is not the only spot where Paul talks about Holy Spirit or his work.This is not the only place where Paul talks about prayer. We are supposed to gather together and pray. How can you possibly believe that we are not supposed to gather together in prayer?How can you possibly believe that Holy Spirit praying to God should be interpreted for everybody to hear in their own language when that is not what the Bible says. You’re the one that is assuming. The Bible plainly says it is “tongues of angels.” I’m not assuming anything. The Word of God is very clear there are various tongues. You are focusing on one.There is more than one type of tongue. But there is multiple types of tongues. |
| Timothy Carter |
Please read it here in the word for yourself ” VARIOUS” this will show that there’s a miscommunication happening. You and I should be on the same page before we can truly communicate.As far as poking holes as you put it iron sharpens iron. This type of dialogue helps us both. I welcome this type of dialogue it helps both of us. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter, I never said we aren’t supposed to gather and pray. My stance was and still is that when we pray together, others should understand so that they can agree, and also so that they can be edified. Some of your responses are just confusing to me. I don’t understand your point about tongues of angels and not interpreting. Why would that be a problem for the Holy Spirit?The Bible doesn’t say tongues are tongues of angels. It says ‘though I speak in the tongues of men and of angels.’ It could be either tongues of men or angels, not all tongues of angels. In Acts 2, there were tongues of men.But what does that have to do with the issue? Why couldn’t the Spirit be able to interpret tongues of angels through the gift of interpretation? I don’t follow your line of reasoning here.Btw, do you think you fully understand what the Holy Spirit does? Who could make such a claim? I don’t fully understand the Holy Spirit. I’m still learning and growing. I am a mortal man. I can’t comprehend the extent of the work of the Spirit, and neither can you.But what we can do is read and understand, by the Spirit, what God has revealed. I am pointing out specific passages, what the Lord has commanded. Do you think Paul wrote that passage so that churches would have no idea what he was writing? Or do you think it is actually possible to understand what he wrote?I am pointing out specific passages of scripture that deal quite specifically with the topic at hand. You respond back by saying you don’t think I fully understand the role of the Spirit. You say there are other verses on prayer. But you don’t mention any of them. Do you say this because what I wrote (and quoted from the Bible) doesn’t fit well with your beliefs, and you think it must be wrong, but you can’t think of anywhere in the Bible that defends your own ideas? |
| Timothy Carter |
Just because I did not list them doesn’t mean I cannot think of them. You are supposed to be able to think for yourself for something this generalized. Can you really not comprehend what “tongues of angels” means?You trying to play some wierd semantics game?I did not say that the Holy Spirit cannot interpret anything. I never said Holy Spirit can not do anything. I said that you or refusing to acknowledge what the Word of God is teaching us there are multiple types of tongues.See the passage I posted in the snapshot I never said Holy Spirit cannot interpret. I said Holy Spirit is not going to interpret my private prayer and share my private prayer with the entire church body because it’s none of the churches bodies business. I think you are just nosey you want to know everybody else’s private business.This is a completely different type of tongue then what you are talking about that needs interpretation.The tongue for interpretation is different than the tongue that is for private prayer. And there are two different types of tongues and there are three different types of tongues and there are four different types of tongues.Read here straight from the word for yourself various types of tongue you are trying to proclaim that there’s only one type of tongue and that is the one for interpretation.As we do this you are going to cause a lot of confusion. We are going to put a hindrance on the move of Holy Spirit.And again can we possibly not understand what is “tongues of angels”? I am using plain English “tongues of men and of angels””Tongues of men” does that part make sense?Can we understand that? Do men have tongues? Can men talk?”Tongues of angels”Now does this part make sense? I will post later a more in-depth study on the various types of tongues. I will post at the top as a new entry. When I do I will tag you my brother Link Hudson I look forward to your insight and dialogue because this is a learning journey. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter, tongues of angels means languages of angels. I don’t get the point you are trying to make about that.If you are praying in tongues, how do you know if it is something personal that you wouldn’t want to speak out to he congregation? The Holy Spirit can tell someone’s personal stuff to the congregation if he wants to. I’m thinking of Ananias and Saphira and the hypothetcial unbeliever or unlearned person who goes into the assembly in I Corinthians 14.Can you show me in the Bible where praying in tongues is a different type of tongue than what is spoken out in the congregation? Paul treats them as the same thing in I Corinthians 14:28. I Corinthians 14 is the one chapter where we see praying in tongues, and Paul treats it as the same thing that is interpreted. The language he uses doesn’t create different categories. |
| Timothy Carter |
Yes I’m using tongues of angels as a language alsoA language as I’m speaking in tongues.We know by discernment. I have an interpretation in my own mind of what I am praying whether it is for me personally. Or whether I am praying for the church body and I need to pray out loud so I know if I need to raise my voice or if I need to whisper. I have a spiritual understanding in my spirit man a spiritual discernment if you will. A communication from Holy Spirit informing me what the prayer is about thats me personally is aware of. This is not an interpretation. This is information. This is guiding me how to handle this particular moment of my prayer. He Holy Spirit is informing me how to conduct myself during this prayer time. If I am praying in tongues for the purpose of the entire church body on Sunday morning then he will tell me to raise my voice so that all can hear. But if I am praying just for me he will instruct me to pray silently whisper just me and God I can stand there horse it there during the music time with my hand raised tears running down my face and pray in tongues. During that moment nothing else matters is just God in me there’s 200 other people in the room doing the exact same thing. In a congregation of 2000 people what little old me is saying is not causing confusion to anybody. |
| Timothy Carter |
And besides they got that music so freaking loud nobody can hear me anyway |
| Timothy Carter |
http://www.christianforums.com/…/four-types-of-tongue…/I know we have discussed before about John Bevere teaching. I don’t necessarily agree with everything he does or says however Bevere explains the variety of tongues issues very well. I think this article may help if not I will post my study later. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter there are various languages: German, Italian, Tokarian A, Lithuanian, Urdu. |
| Timothy Carter |
That’s not what Paul is talking about. Please give this some serious thought. |
| Timothy Carter |
There’s a variety of almost everything. |
| Timothy Carter |
Link Hudson have you read the article?Have you understood that tongues of Angels is a heavenly language?Do you understand yet that when Paul is speaking of Holy Spirit speaking through us with various tongues he’s not talking about human tongue? He’s not saying he makes us become linguist.Being a linguist is not a spiritual gift.Even an atheist can be a linguist. To believe that a person who is a linguist has the gift of Holy Spirit is wrong headed thinking that is not proper interpretation of the Word of God.Please brother Link Hudson don’t be confused about God’s Word.Holy Spirit provides communication between us and God he is teaching us about Jesus. He is not teaching us human languages.I know that in Acts chapter 2 each man heard them speaking in their own language however what they heard was praises unto God. |
| Timothy Carter |
Link Hudson this is not the only location the scripture where we find speaking in tongues. However this is the only location where we see speaking in tongues and people hear them speaking in their own language. Even still there not talking to the people there talking to God. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter, ‘tongues’ means ‘languages’, either that or the thing in our mouths that we talk with, depending on the context, and in Acts 2 it also refers to a flame on one occasion. Are tongues human languages? Some of them certainly are. Paul suggests two possibilities, languages of men or of angels.As far as becoming a linguist goes, being a linguist is different from knowing a language. Linguists use languages, but being a language speaker and a linguist isn’t the same thing. (Sorry, studied a bit in that field, and wanted to clarify.) Typically, the speaker in tongues doesn’t know what he is saying. He can know if he receives a gift of interpreting tongues. If no one present understands the tongue, that does’t mean it’s not a language. Tongues were real human languages in Acts 2. On that occasion, God had people present who understood. And there have been many occasions in relatively modern times where people have understood speaking in tongues in their own languages. I’ve met someone who has heard speaking in tongues in English in China, and one of our European participants on the forum has heard German speakers who do not know English speak in tongues in modern and KJV English. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy CarterThat comment ‘and you know it’ isn’t the most polite way to communicate.I wonder if your interpretation is the result of the archane language used in the KJV and even modern translations, which renders the word ‘tongues’ instead of ‘languages.’There are several modern translations that use ‘languages’ in I Corinthians 12:10.to another miraculous results; to another prophecy; to another the ability to distinguish between spirits; to another various kinds of languages; and to another the interpretation of languages. If you were the Corinthians and you got a letter that talked about ‘various types of languages’, wouldn’t you think in terms of Old German, Sythian, and Lyaconian, instead of ‘languages for praying’, and ‘languages for speaking to the congregation.’ People who speak in tongues do speak in all kinds of languages like we see in Acts 2, which lists a number of them.When Paul writes about languages of angels, I see no reason why that can’t be taken literally. I know there is a belief popularized by some neoPentecostals that tongues is not a real languae. That doesn’t seem to be the Pentecostal belief if you go back to the early 20th century. I know you don’t care for refernces to Azusa, but LA was an international city even back then, and people from different nationalities heard their own languages in tongues according to the testimonies of various accounts. I posted a Vincen Synan interview with some folks who were at Azusa as children as an OP to athread earlier. He’s got another interview of a man who was a child at the revival who was at meeting where an African man heard his own language ‘in tongues’ and an interpretation.On the A/G side of the Pentecostal movement, I’d be surprised if there were a lot of people who beleived tongues aren’t some kind of language. The A/G was started partly as a missions organization and they have a huge missionary effort. A lot of the folks in the A/G when I was coming up would have heard Charles Greenoway’s testimony about a preacher who preached in tongues in the native languge while waiting for an interpreter who arrived late to a revival. I’ve also read A/G testimonies about people understanding tongues on mission field. I’ve heard these things fr other Pentecostal and Charismatic folks. How doeat happen if tongues aren’t languages? How did it happen in Acts 2?The terminology Paul uses in the epistle doesn’t create separate categories for tongues as prayer and tongues to be spoken out to the congregation. Paul treats these tongues as same thing. Some of the very verses we get the idea of tongues from treat tongues in prayer and tongues spoken out in church to be interpreted as the same sort of thing. I Cor. 14:28 is a good example. |
| Timothy Carter |
Yes brother Link Hudson tongues does mean language. I too have experienced speaking in tongues and people have told me that I was speaking in their native language.There is also the heavenly language which is the tongues of angels.Either way this is speaking to God.The Bible does teach about interpretation of tongues. But not all tongues needs to be interpreted.It seems to be that you are getting hung up on one passage and not rightly dividing the Word of TRUTH. or either you are trying to study one passage and I am misunderstanding what you are saying. we do not have to interpret every single tongue if so then tongues itself is useless. Why not just have the tons of English for all English speaking people? And the tongues of Chinese for all Chinese speaking people and so forth? by today’s standards people do not know what I have studied especially with Rosetta Stone being available. They don’t know if I have learned how to say those 60 words of a praise to God in their language.So how is it beneficial for them to hear me speak Japanese?How would they not know that I don’t speak Japanese?How would they know that I’m not bilingual or that I’m not a professional linguist?They do not know.In Acts chapter 2 the key is and watch closely now these men are unlearned. However you are a learned man you’re studying for your PhD. I am a learned man. Most of the people we engage in our thread or learned persons.We have no proof that these persons do not already have a background in a particular language other than their vernacular.So what is so amazing about tongues?It has to be more than speaking a human tongue and not claiming to know already.There has to be something more then a spontaneous ability to be able to speak in a language and someone else interpret. Because I have preached to multicultural congregation with an interpreter. This is not what the Bible is talking about when it says to interpret tongues.Although this is not a spontaneous interpretation it is indeed and interpretation of tongues. Nevertheless this is not what the Apostle Paul is saying when he says interpretation of tongues. I am speaking the tongues of English and John is speaking the tongues of Vietnamese. This is not what the Apostle Paul is claiming is the gift of tongues and interpretation.There is something Holy that takes place. Holy Spirit is Holy therefor His language is Holy. He is not simply speaking the language of man. Rather he is speaking the language of God because He is God.Don’t misinterpret what I’m saying please I am Trinitarian.Holy Spirit is God. He is speaking the language of God everything He is Holy. Everything he speaks He is speaking through the carnal man. He is communicating through the mouth of the man or woman boy or girl that He chosen.This is a heavenly language a Holy language. The language of angels. Sometimes Paul calls this groans that cannot be uttered with words.So yes Holy Spirit will work through us as humans. He will gives us the ability to speak praise to God, prayer to God. This will be done in a language which is currently used on earth or a dead language such as the Latin Koine Greek or original Hebrew or another dead language known to man. This is the tongues of man.— the tongues of angels are the times we speak in a heavenly language when nobody on earth could possibly interpret because we are speaking a language that is not known to man.Have you read the article I have posted? |
| Timothy Carter |
I apologize for my statement sounding rude. When I said ‘and you know it’. Brother Link Hudson I I’m not trying to sound rude I appreciate you pointing that out.I do not read the King James on a regular basis. I did grow up on the King James. However when I got old enough I stopped reading it because it is archaic language. I switch my translations around so that I will be able to get a better feel for an in-depth study.The word tongues does come from my heritage that’s what I grew up with. That is what my denomination says. I am Church of God Cleveland Tennessee. Most of us “say speaking in tongues.”To say speaking in languages is not accurate it does not communicate what the Word of God is truly saying. As I stated before we do not become a linguist. I know that a linguist is a person who has studied. However to use the word language is confusing to some people. I can float either way. My default setting is to say tongues of course because that’s what I’ve been doing my whole life. |
| Patricia Gardner Smith |
It is absolutely amazing how Christian people memorize the scriptures not to win the lost to God but simply to be able to argue and tell other Christian people how wrong they are and how terrible their church is and point out how good and perfect and correct what they believe is.The sinner will not be won by reading all the quarreling and squabbling on this website.I wonder how Jesus feels about what is being said on here.Grown people acting like children.People asking the hardest questions they can come up with just to stir up strife and I’m positive Satan is having himself a ball and laughing just knowing all on here have listen when he whispered in each ear and all obeyed.If Christians are fighting among themselves no sinner is won to the Lord.Foolish and unlearned questions instead of being avoided are being used to obey the devil.Now instead of seeing what you can come back at me for or someone else why don’t everyone on here ask God’s forgiveness and promise not to let the devil fool you again.No I’m not perfect either but I do not argue the scriptures or answer foolish questions. |
| Link Hudson |
Patricia Gardner Smith, I wouldn’t expect unbelievers on their way to Hell to be reading this page unless they are Pentecostal unbelievers. 😮 . There is nothing wrong with in-depth study of the word of God. Evangelism is important, but believers studying, teaching, and learning the word of God is also important. If it weren’t, the New Testament wouldn’t devote space to these topics. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter, are you saying that there are ‘tongues of angels’ that some people speak in tongues that are more holy than when other people speak in tongues in human languages? I believe speaking in tongues is holy, if it’s the real thing, just like genuine interpretation and prophecy is holy. If it is a message from the Holy Spirit, I consider it to be a holy thing. I’m with you on that.But weren’t the Corinthian tongues holy? Weren’t the tongues the guy in I Corinthians 14:28 would speak in if he doesn’t choose to be silent be holy? It’s possible to badly steward something holy. Suppose you were in Corinth in 50 or 60 something AD when the church got Paul’s letter. Brother Lebius had a habit of speaking in tongues in a disorderly manner. Everyone was looking at him while the letter was being read.Then Lebius says that tongues are holy, that the word of truth needs to be rightly divided, that not all interpretations need to be interpreted? What would you say to him? Might you not read Paul’s statement, ‘what I write to you are the commandments of the Lord”? |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter, you say the word of truth needs to be rightly divided when I point out what the Bible says about interpreting tongues. Can you share some of the other word of truth on the subject that you don’t think I’m dividing rightly? From my perspective, it seems like your comments about rightly dividing the word of truth are a bit of a dodge or a cop-out. You don’t show what other aspects of the word of truth you don’t think I am dividing. Your comments about the holy nature of speaking in tongues apply to the Corinthians whose tongues-speaking Paul wanted to be in order just as much as it applies to people in churches today. Yet Paul still wrote to them. He doesn’t treat praying in tongues as a separate issue in this passage. He treats it as the same thing as speaking in tongues that is to be interpreted in verse 28. |
| Timothy Carter |
Mis Partricia Patricia Gardner Smith please understand most of us who are dialogue in here on a regular basis we are all friends.We don’t know each other face to face necessarily but we are friends online we are having a Bible study.Brother Link Hudson is a very intelligent man he is studying Christian leadership and I I am studying Global Christian education. The two of us together are sharpening each others minds. He and I do not feel that we are arguing but rather helping each other think through the process.I appreciate his input and I feel that he also appreciates my input if not he would not continue talking with me. we have others in this thread as well such as Charles page the Russian lady whose name starts with a B and several other people who are extremely smart I learn a lot from these people.This is for me like a very advanced Sunday school class. Please do not be offended and think we are arguing this is Bible study. |
| Patricia Gardner Smith |
Link Hudson that is exactly what I was speaking about.The rough harsh way of saying something.There are unbelievers that may come across this site by accident just as I did.I am on here reading all of the information and enjoying what some have to say and actually learning but some of the tones coming across are harsh.Yes,I am a Christian,Church of God of Prophecy and no I don’t agree with all the changes but I will stay in The Word of God and keep studying and listening and learning and definitely praying and seeking the wisdom of God.Now may God bless you and back to the study. |
| Patricia Gardner Smith |
Bro.Timothy Carter,thank you.God bless you. |
| Timothy Nail |
Link do you believe there was 120 interpretations in the Upper a Room or untold interpretations at Cornelius house or 12 different interpretations after the 12 who had not received in Acts 19? |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Nail No, I think that is rather unlikely. None of these were your regular meeting of the church type situation that we face. In Acts 2, they’d just received the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The same is true of the other situations. In Acts 10, the listeners had just heard the gospel explained to them. Acts 2 and 10 were evangelistic situations as well. Derick Prince had an article where he taught that speakers in tongues should be silent if there is no interpreter, making an exception for when someone is first baptized with the Holy Ghost.And we can pray in tongues at home. If something isn’t edifying to the body in our church meetings, we aren’t supposed to be doing it. The speaker in tongues should be silent if he sees that there is no interpreter. If there is, the tongue should be interpreted to edify others. The Bible says to let all things be done unto edifying. |
| Timothy Nail |
I think you are greatly mistaken concerning the expression of tongues in church services, but you certainly have the right to your view. |
| Brody Pope |
Would someone care to explain? |
| Gwynn Poole |
Brody your on target!!! Keep experiencing what God is doing at that Baptist Church… These comments sounds like opposing views of water Baptism… Derik Prince wasn’t ALWAYS CORRECT… And had continuing different views on topics… Just like we aren’t always correct… THE HOLY GHOST IS ALWAYS IN ORDER AND CORRECT… We need more of him and more expressions of him for the unbeliever to see… BISHOP MAX W.POOLE.. |
| Link Hudson |
Brody Pope, I think it’s great if a Baptist pastor got grace from the Lord to speak in tongues. That’s a wonderful thing. |
| Link Hudson |
БиблиÑта Тв How long was the pre-Azusa gap? 🙂 |
| Link Hudson |
БиблиÑта Тв But that was before the school house revival on the NC, TN, GA border where the COG started. There was some speaking in tongues in the 1830’s which influenced Irving and later the Catholic Apostolic Church. It is interesting that the Topeka outpouring occurred just a few months before their last ‘apostle’ died. |
| Gwynn Poole |
BOYS GROW UP! MWP |
| Charles Page |
post Asuza Pentecostals – gap theory!!! |
| Alan Smith |
gap or gasp?? lol |
| Brody Pope |
We had a Holy Ghost bomb explode at that Baptist church. Dead serious! |
| Charles Page |
anybody killed? sometimes that happens! |
| Brody Pope |
5 saved, 6 redidicated, 1 healed. And a bunch more touched. |
| Brody Pope |
If you ask me, no. If you ask them, yes. |
| Brody Pope |
I heard nobody speak in tongues as the initial evidence. So my conclusion is no. |
| Charles Page |
insignificant evidence is being added to the Church by the Lord.I would assume back then in Acts 2 you would not become a church member without speaking in tongues. |
| Charles Page |
according to the Landmark Baptist they were there!!! |
| Link Hudson |
In Acts 2, they ‘all’ soke in tongues. In Acts 10, some, maybe all, spoke with tongues. They spoke with tongues and magnified God. Some of them may have magnified God without tongues. Either that are all speaking in tongues would fit the description. In Acts 19, maybe all spoke in tongues and prophesied, or maybe some spoke in tongues and some prophesied. |
| Timothy Nail |
Link Hudson I am not getting your point. I though the point you were trying to make was tongues should not be in a public setting? Your argument confuses me. Either because you are so much deeper than I or you are confused yourself. Either way I think I will keep having church like we have been all my life. |
| Brody Pope |
I agree with the above statement. ^^^ |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Nail, I’m a big believer in examining the scriptures to see if we should be having church the same way we have all our lives. I certainly think there is more there for us than a lot of churches have experienced. How often do you see the Spirit moving to such a great extent in prophecy that while one prophet is speaking, another receives a revelation and the first prophet speaks? It may just be the case that churches haven’t sought to implement this and the individuals with the revelations or the speakers aren’t putting it into practice. But it could be most of us just haven’t tapped into everything we could have.I’m not against the public use of tongues. I believe that if there be no interpreter, someone praying in tongues should be keep silent in the church. It’s better to speak 5 words that instructothers with the understanding than to pray 10,000 words in an unknown tongue– if you are in the church, the congregation, the assembly. |
| Charles Page |
I believe part of the problem is that we think that a prophecy is correct because God gives it. That is not true for the congregation till the corporate amen is cast. The final word is with the congregation. (under scriptural leadership) |
| Link Hudson |
Charles Page So do you think these liberal churches that reject part of the Bible are right if they don’t say amen? |
| Charles Page |
in the context of the discussion the final determination of a prophecy given in a congregation being correct is the judgement of the congregation and not by the one exercising the gift. The final act of prophecy is the acceptance of the believers, the judgement that this is indeed from the Lord. |
| Link Hudson |
My point is if we gather as a church and we are supposed to be edifying each other, everyone praying in tongues at the same time without any intention to interpret at all, or taking turns praying n tongues without any intention to interpret is out of order and contradicts I Corinthians 14:27-28. I’m not talking about the first time someone or a group of people is/are baptize with the Holy Ghost. I”m talk about group prayer in tongues like they do at Benny Hinn crusades or some Pentecostal churches in the southeast. |
| Timothy Carter |
I have never been to a Benny Hinn crusade brother Link Hudson. I am NOT interested in going to a Benny Hinn crusade.I am NOT interested in watching them on TV much less attending.There is nothing wrong with multiple people praying in tongues at the same time during prayer time. This is not out of order if it is in alignment with the church normative.What Paul is the dressing in 1st Corinthians chapter 14 he is talking about something that is causing confusion.What happens in the Church of God when we are praying in tongues together it is not causing confusion but it is bringing unity.We discern in our spirit man ( this means we have a recognition of understanding by Holy Spirit) let the other persons whom we are praying with are also praying by the leadership of Holy Spirit. If they are not praying the leadership of Holy Spirit Holy Spirit will tell us so.If Holy Spirit tells us that they are not praying by His leadership He will also give us instructions what to do about it sometimes we will cast the demons out.Sometimes we will continue as we have and just let that person keep right on praying because they’re simply inmature.Other times Holy Spirit will tell us to tell them to stop.This is where we must be in tune with Him and sensitive to His leadership.Brother Link Hudson you are trying to take a case study and make a doctrine out of it.You and I have had this conversation before. We must be very careful the Word of God is not meant for us leaders of the church to take a case study and create a doctrine from it.We are supposed to rightly divide the Word of Truth.This is why I have been trying to encourage you to look elsewhere other than this one passage. This is not the only location where Paul speaks of tongues. Yes I am intentionally using tongues not the word language. This is perhaps because there is more to the understanding of heavenly- input heavenly involvement if you will- then just a language. This is something Holy that is taking place. In our church of God tradition. And in most of our church of God today we pray in tongues together. We are not in disobedience to God’s Word. We are not grieving Holy Spirit because Holy Spirit is the one giving us the utterance. We are not disobeying Holy Spirit when Holy Spirit is the one instructing us how to pray for one another.Our church services and or our prayer services do not look like a Benny Hinn show . Our church services do not look like a John MacArthur circus. Your post seems like you are trying to defend against the church becoming like a John MacArthur circus.John MacArthur is a complete sensationalist. He finds the worst case scenarios of crazy nuts and post those films. I know you have not used his name I did.Please brother do not try to make a doctrine out of a case study. Everybody throughout history who has ever done this gets stuck in a rut and starts teaching heresy. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter, I’m taking what Paul calls ‘commandments of the Lord’ and implies are for all churches, a fact he says that those who claim to be prophets and spiritual gifted should recognize, and saying we need to obey it. You and I both know that tongues are only mentioned in about 6 chapters, and most of those are a verse here and there. I Corinthians 14 is the only passage that discusses tongues in church in depth.Why do you think Paul wrote that about the one who considers himself a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what Paul wrote were the commandments of the Lord?Btw, some of the Church of God church meetings in Indonesia, probably the largest national conference (not sure about that, but I think so) look more like a big Charismatic meeting than a Pentecostal service. I’ve seen everyone praying in tongues in small Pentecostal churches in the country in the SouthEast. The COG has more a of a ‘Charismatic’ feel to it in some parts of the world. Btw, don’t you think Paul’s comment ‘if anyone consider himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that what I write to you are the commandments of the Lord’ might be directed toward people who spoke in tongues and prophesied in church who wanted to argue that they were in step with the Spirit, but wanted to do things contrary to the commandments of the Lord that he just gave? What would you say to someone who told you they did not have to do things the way the Bible says because the Spirit was leading them? |
| Charles Page |
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? |
| Timothy Carter |
Brother Link Hudson I will give you further scripture references as you have asked I actually have a Bible study on a flash drive when I get back to my computer.You asked what would I say to someone who says they do not have to obey God’s Word because Holy Spirit told them? You have read what I have said to Peter a vendoree or however you spell his name. He claims that he does not need to obey God’s Word because he himself is the authority because he here straight from Holy Spirit because he is living in deception.I have told him that he needs to repent from being in that deception and submit to the authority Oh God humbled himself and learn the Word .I don’t know what the Church of God looks like outside of the United States.When I’m talking to you about the Church of God and what we do is our tradition I’m talking to you about here in the US what I personally have seen but I personally have witnessed.I am NOT charismatic I refuse to be charismatic. I am Pentecostal. I am NOT neo Pentecostal I am Pentecostal. The Church of God identifies herself as Pentecostal / charismatic. I believe this is because of the International influence.You are correct there is not a lot of focus given on tongues. We get in trouble when we major on what the Bible minor on and reminder on what the Bible major on. So again I say be careful not to create a doctrine over this issue.If I pray in tongues and there is no interpretation there is no big deal.It is Holy Spirit who gives the ability to speak in tongues in the first place. Therefore it is Holy Spirit who is the one who will be giving the interpretation I cannot force Him to give the interpretation.If the interpretation does not come it is not a big deal He is still God and I am still me.Not everybody’s prayer needs to be interpreted. Prayers are private between a person and God sometimes.When a person is talking to God they’re talking to God not to the congregation. If they’re talking to the congregation then it needs to be interpreted. Because then it’s a message like that of prophecy but when it is a prayer is an intimate relationship between the believer and God. Do you really want God to take all of your prayers and repeat them in public? |
| Timothy Carter |
Charles Page my brother I don’t understand what you’re saying |
| Charles Page |
quoting scripture from a very unfamiliar version!!! |
| Timothy Nail |
Pentecostalism has successfully touched the world magnified the name of Jesus like no other movement and brought a enhanced focus on holy living. I am thankful to be a fourth generation Pentecostal from the South East. |
| Charles Page |
The problem at Corinth is the brother that Paul is addressing this portion of the letter (ch 12-14) there could be more than one brother addressed. He (they) are ill-informed at best and intentionally unbelieving at worst and isn’t this still the case today? |
| Charles Page |
I am His witness because I have been with Him from the beginning! I have better than servant’s insight!!! |
| James Roy Locklair |
Forbid not to speak with tongues |
| Brody Pope |
What? ^^^ |
| Charles Page |
manuscripts which discovered in a future century will say: “Forbid to speak in tongues” |
| Timothy D McCune |
Sounds like another discussion on “you must speak in tongues or you wont go to heaven”. |
| Charles Page |
be born again or you won’t go to heaven. however you can’t be a scriptural disciple w/o tongues. |
| Timothy D McCune |
All must be born again to go to heaven, I do not believe all must speak in tongues. Some people dont i have used the thief on the cross before as an example people discount that ,thats there opinion. i have know people that didnt and are saved. My son in our living room tears in his eyes praying to Jesus for salvation didnt speak in tongues at that time, he is saved. |
| Timothy Nail |
I am Pentecostal to the core but to think you have to speak in tongues to be saved is far out dancing on heresy. |
| Charles Page |
It is a heretical oneness belief!!! |
| Timothy D McCune |
I was raised oneness Pentecostal , i have seen a lot of great things in the church there. At two years old God fully restored my eye sight. While we attended a Oneness church, I still respect and love friends and family that still attend. But im on a different path i believe. |
| Timothy Nail |
I went to a Oneness school through my high school years. Most all of my Oneness friends once believed that but most all of them since then has turned from that belief. My Oneness pastor who caused me to really dig into my faith as a Church of God kid is now attending an AG church. |
| Corey Forsyth |
Now I am far from being a scholar but I have never understood how a “gift” of speaking in tongues could be required of all believers. They are diverse gifts to be used by diverse people in order to be used to unite the Body. If we all had the same gifts operating regularly, would that not bring more burden than blessing? I believe tongues to be the most controversial because it is the most easily mimicked. Anybody can rattle off syllables in a church service and sound religious so it seems to me that it will naturally caused conflict due to so many imitators having to defend themselves. Just my 2 cents worth anyway. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter, I Corinthians 14:28 tells the man to keep silent in the church, and to speak to himself and to God. So either he has to be silent while he prays in tongues in church (in his head?) or else do it out of the assembly. How does it edify other people if you pray in tongues in church and don’t interpret? Two verses before it says, ‘…every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.’ Verse 12 says to the tongues-zealous Corinthians that inasmuch as you are zealous after spiritual gifts, seek to excel to the edication of the assembly. Why should I spend time in the assembly, time that should be spent exhorting one another, doing something I can do at home, an individual activity that only builds me up and (according to scripture) doesn’t edify anyone else. |
| Link Hudson |
БиблиÑта Тв I’m not against praying in tongues. I am for following Biblical order…commandments of the Lord that any spiritually gifted person or prophet whould acknowledge… to do things in the right time and place. It’s a stretch to conclude that Jude thought that the only way to pray in the Holy Ghost is to utter tongues. The Spirit also interceds with groanings that, unlike tongues which are given as the Spirit gives utterance, can’t be utterred. The Psalms show us examples of prophetic prayers. Aren’t those spirit-led? In I Corinthians 14, when Paul prayed in tongues HIS spirit prays, small ‘s’. |
| Charles Page |
what IS the Biblical order? is there a simple answer? |
| Link Hudson |
“Let all things be done unto edifying.” |
| Charles Page |
doesn’t that apply to PPL experienced in corporate worship? |
| Link Hudson |
Charles Page what is ppl? |
| Charles Page |
personal prayer language – any Baptist would know that!!! |
| Charles Page |
SBC has been debating that as a missionary practice -first restricting missionaries then giving a sanction if it is kept private. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter , I think you have interpreted I Corinthians 14 in a cessationist way. The article БиблиÑта Тв posted did as well. Where do we get the idea that Paul is correcting Corinthians for arrogance in use of spiritual gifts? Maybe it was an issue, but Paul doesn’t address it if it is ….IF…. we interpret the passage in a Pentecostal or Charismatic way.Some cesationists interpret the verse that says that he who speaks in tongues ‘edifies himself’ to mean that ‘edify’ means ‘puffed up.’ I suppose it could mean that if it weren’t for the context. Based on the context and what Paul is saying in the next verse and throughout the passage, Pentecostals and Charismatics take this to mean that speaking in tongues edifies the speaker– edify in a good way, not in the sense of puffing oneself up arrogantly to look good. If ‘edify’ is a good thing, then there is nothing in the text that blames their misuse of spiritual gifts on arrogance.The Corinthians had a problem with arrogance, but does that mean it was at the root of every problem? Were they all arrogant? Paul corrected fornication, too, in chapter 6. Were all the guys speaking in tongues in chapter 12 committing fornication with prostitutes, too? Or is it more likely that there were some who were doing this or just tempted to do so? He does teach about tongues and the need for love in chapter 13. It could be they lacked love in their use of spiritual gifts, or that Paul simply wanted to encourage them to use the gifts in love. This ties nicely with the point Paul gets at in chapter 14 that the use of the gifts in church is to EDIFY OTHERS and not oneself. Paul spoke in tongues ‘more than ye all.’ but in the church, he prioritized edifying others. Can you guys see this theme throughout the chapter? Do you agree?Paul doesn’t blame the Corinthian misuse of tongues on arrogance. He blames it on childish understanding. 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.Having a church meeting where there is a lot of speaking in tongues without interpreting others in church and thinking that is having a good, spiritual meeting is demonstrating a childish understanding. It’s using the gift without using it for it’s proper purpose in a way that is beneficial for others. Tongues and interpretation does benefit others. So if we speak in tongues and interpret in church, that’s great. But it does people a lot more good to hear a good prayer in English in church that they can say ‘amen’ believing believe God to answer or just joining in the thanksgiving, than it does to hear speaking in tongues. If a Baptist can read the passage and see that, fine. Apparently, some A/G Bible scholars see it in the passage, too, and they are Pentecostal. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter it is also wrong of you to say that I am anti preaching. I am pro preaching and teaching. I don’t think just having one person do all the ministry of the word is what the Bible teaches, not if others present are gifted in this area. Pentecostals went back to Protestant tradition of having one long sermon preached by one preacher after the revival that launced the movement. I’m in favor of speaking in tongues, but in accordance with the Lord’s commands. I’m in favor or prophesying, teaching, healing, miracles, etc. In church, I’m in favor of all things being done unto edifying. There are right ways to steward the gifts and there are wrong ways. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter I haven’t done half the things you accused me of. I didn’t say you were a cessationist. I said you were apparently using a cessationist interpretation of ‘edifies himself’ becuase cessationists are inclined to take that to mean ‘puffs himself up’ and Pentecostal/Charismatics interpert it ot mean self-edificaiton in a positivie sense. That is THE verse that one can use to argue that the problem with gifts in Corinth was pride.I used to be able to quote I Corinthians (in A/G Bible quiz years), so I’ve studied it quite a bit, memorized it, etc. I’m still quite familiar with it. I can’t think of any verses that indicate the Corinthians were jockying for position like the 12 were in the Gospels.I didn’t say you were a homosexual. I did say your argument seemed ‘gay’ since you were dismissing I Corinthians 14 as not applicable based on some context cultural argument that is the same thing the LGBT advocates do with Romans 1. I apologize for that.Also, in my post about pastors, I opened up by saying that I do believe in the Biblical role of pastor, but that there are a lot of unbiblical ideas people think of when they think of the word pastor. The Bible is clear that the apostles appointed more than one elder in a local church and told them to pastor.What you said that I took as an attack was to say that I’m against prayer, against spiritual gifts, against preacher, etc. None of that is true. |
| Charles Page |
Corinth had pastors afraid of offending people who needed correction. always blame the congregation rather than accept the responsibility to act as pastor of the congregation. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter, your approach to the passage reminds me of liberal pro-homosexual’s approach to the passage on Romans, maybe not as shockingly, but it’s similar. I can understand if you interpret the passage differently, but brushing the passage off as just applying to another group and not us seems kind of ‘gay.’ Liberals like to abuse the cultural-historical method. They say a passage like Romans 1 and argue that is about a very specific audience, and doesn’t apply to homosexuals today. One can take the same type of cultural context approach and use it on anything.The school shooter could argue that when the Bible says, “Do not murder” it is always addressing either Jews or Greek-speakers. No passage ever specifically gives this command to white Anglo-Saxons who speak English.They could argue that in the cultural context, killing was done with knives, stones, fists, and arrows, and not with automatic assult rifles, and therefore it does not apply to them.I Corinthians 14 implies that Paul is applying universal church order principles to the church. Paul calls them commandments of the Lord.”What came the word of God out from you?” The word of the Lord went forth from Zion. Jesus sent the 12 to Jerusalem first and had them evangelize starting from there after His ascension.”or unto you only has it come?” Get with the program Corinthians. This is the way all the churches are supposed to do it. “If any man consider himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that what I right to you are the commandments of the Lord.” The Corinthians may have had prophets who argued that they were flowing with the Spirit. They might have had tongues-speakers who, if they hadn’t read this verse, might have argued why would the Holy Spirit give them the ability to speak in tongues if they weren’t supposed to?The spirituals of the prophet are subject to the prophet. The spiritual manifestations are subject to the prophet. He CAN stop prophesying and let someone else who gets a revelation speak. Claiming he can’t is no excuse. Sure, he may have a flow that he can tap into as he stewards the gift. But he is to be subject to the commandments of the Lord in wilfull obedience, following ordered Biblical commands, and WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF THE LORD’S COMMANDS, use those spiritual gifts. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter There are people going around teaching that Romans 1 doesn’t apply because it was a different culture, that they just had a dominant person molesting someone else back then, and that Paul hadn’t seen gay marriage or loving homosexual relationships. And they will say it doesn’t apply because it is about homosexual behavior in idolatrous practices, and try to argue that was the case for Leviticus, too.Basically, they try to argue that the passages don’t apply to them because they say it was a special case, a different culture. IMO, it’s similar to what you were arguing about I Corinthians 14 not applying to us. |
| Link Hudson |
Can’t find the message now, TImothy Carter. I found it earlier. The sentence after your post that included the word ‘arrogancy’. You said that Paul was rebuking the Corinthians for arrogancy, not making a rule for all the churches. THat’s the same thing the LGBT folks do with Romans 1. It’s the same thing some cessationists do with I Corinthians 14 to argue that we don’t have to allow tongues or prophesying. Part of Paul’s argumnt is implying that the rules he’s giving apply to all churches. |
| Charles Page |
spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. Few Pentecostals seem to believe that. |
| Link Hudson |
Charles Page, if memory serves me correctly, ‘spirits’ in ‘spirits of the prophets’ is the same word (or grammatical form thereof) of the word ‘gifts’ in ‘Now concerning spiritual gifts brethren, I would not have you ignorant.’ So there may be a bit of a chaism here, where he brings up pneumatikos at the end of the section, and he also brings up ignorance again, ‘and if any many be ignorant, let him be ignorant’, as a kind of commentary on the whole section about not being ignorant regarding spiritual gifts. |
| Link Hudson |
Almost the same word for pnematikos, but not exactly the same… |
| Charles Page |
leadership can be hardheaded!!! |
| Alan Smith |
That line is a mouthFULL!!! |
| Brody Pope |
Sundah morning until Tuesday night. |
| Brody Pope |
Hopefully it continues within thr people. |
| Brody Pope |
I wish they would at least go all week. The longest one I’ve been in was 3 weeks. |
| Link Hudson |
Timothy Carter, I’d like to remind you that slander is a sin, and that the Bible says that all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire. You have said that I am against prayer. If you disagree with me about how prayer should be done in the church, that doesn’t give you the right to make up stuff about me. It seems to me that I am arguing against your point of view, and you resort to an ad hominem attack. I pray. I encourage prayer. I pray with my kids. I said I found your dismissing I Corinthians as irrelevant to be similar to the LGBT arguments about Romans 1, and described that approach to Bible interpretation as ‘gay.’ I apologize if that got our conversation started down the wrong path. I believe when we meet together to have church, we should take turns praying in a way that others understand. If someone prays in tongues, it should be interpreted. If there is no interpreter, then he should keep silent in the church. That’s not being against prayer. That’s believing in praying in order in church. Other people get nothing out of you praying in tongues in church. And you can get just as much out of praying in tongues at home as you can at church. You intepret ‘keep silent in the church, and let him speak to himself and to God’ to mean that he should whisper. Do you have any evidence that the Greek word translated ‘silent’ means ‘whisper’ anywhere in the Greek language? ‘Silient’ does not mean that in English, so you aren’t getting any support for your theory from the translation you are using. The other interpretatoin I can see is the Paul expects the ‘speak to himself and to God’ to occur outside of church because he said for the man to keep silent in church. Is there any evidence from the passage to support this? Yes there is.16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen†at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.(NKJV)Look at verse 18. Paul speaks in tongues more than all of them. Notice contrast between that and YET IN THE CHUCH in verse 19. Nice the word ‘yet’. The implication would be that Paul spoke in tongues a lot outside of the church. I the assembly, he would rather speak 5 words with the undertanding. Tongues without interpretan doesn’t teach ors.And if everyone is praying in tongues under their breath, unbelievers who visit will probably still think you are crazy.Btw, I see you aren’t just saying the passage does not apply to us anymore, and you are interpreting the passage. That makes a lot more sense than what you were doing before, IMO. |
| Brody Pope |
I think y’all took a cool little discussion and ruined it. And y’all are acting like idgets. |
| Charles Page |
idget – name for a stupid person, slang for idiot |
| Brody Pope |
We use that a lot down here in the sticks |
| Charles Page |
we did also when I was growing up…hadn’t heard it in awhile!!! lol |
| Corey Forsyth |
I believe the incomparable Yosemite Sam used that term quite a bit when referencing the ever endearing Bugs Bunny. HAHA |
| Brody Pope |
Idk. |
| Brody Pope |
I mean, can we talk about something without at least one person getting offended? |
| Corey Forsyth |
Brody Pope welcome to the world of ministry.. I have been heavily involved in church ministry for almost 18 years now and I have never been able to escape this junk. No one has the ability to debate or even discuss anymore without getting personal or angry. Pride is a true religious killer. If people had a basic understanding that they are flawed and, therefore, capable of getting some things wrong, we could foster more growth and less fuss. But that’s just my 2 cents worth… |
| Timothy D McCune |
Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men |
Varnel Watson
has it ever happen to you? Philip Williams Charles Page
Philip Williams
Troy Day More Spirit today in many Baptist than Pentecostal churches.
From the Pentecostal clergy that I observe in this forum, I now understand why,
Nora Neel-Toney
Philip Williams amen Phillip. I’ve witnessed this
Varnel Watson
I strongly doubt any of that
Nora Neel-Toney
Recently I’ve been in Holy Ghost services with some special Baptist people. People were praising God with speaking in tongues.
Varnel Watson
all baptists are special people
Nora Neel-Toney
Troy Day I agree. The ones I referred to have a special anointing that others do not have.
Varnel Watson
Nora Neel-Toney wouldnt you say they aint baptists if they already speak in tongues now?
Nora Neel-Toney
Troy Day not necessarily
Varnel Watson
NEVER happened