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Tony Conger | PentecostalTheology.com
i had a hard time understanding how God could hate or reject anyone before they knew to go good or bad. im speaking of Esau/Jacob in Rom. 9:13. i prayed about it for a long time and believe God gave me the revelation.
esau/edom are representative of law/grace. law came first but grace reached out and grabbed it/fulfilled the righteous requirment of the law. those who try to come to God by the law are rejected(hated) those who come by grace are accepted (loved)
i believe the calvinistic interpretation is not only a perversion but missing the beautiful prophecy here.
Ryan Neil Rutan
How does this at all fit in the context of that chapter?
Ryan Neil Rutan
This will help you follow the biblical context, brother.
https://youtu.be/LKJgC1_6NN0
Tony Conger
lol i know the calvinist view. thanks. it fits in because those who try to come by works are rejected and God is just to reject those. and if he wants to take Pharoah and harden his heart to bring glory to his name he is free to do that. but lets not pretend that Pharoah didnt first reject God. God didnt take someone righteous and make him a sinner. He toook someone who had rejected him and used that for his glory.
Dan Irving
Paul is quoting Malachi 1:2. Esau represents the natural man, which must come first, but must be subordinated to his brother, the spiritual man (Jacob.) (I Cor 15:46) God has rejected and will overthrow all the works of the former man (Mal. 1:3)
Dan Irving
Paul’s context is even the “children of the flesh” (Rom 9:8) Therefore, he no necessarily speaking primarily of election, in the sense I think you mean.
Tony Conger
children of the flesh was a reference to Israel after the flesh. “they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted for the seed”…the children of promise are those that come by faith.
Dan Irving
It is also to be taken prophetically of each believer. Malachi is not speaking of a literal Israel or literal Edom (ie. Esau.) Therefore, for an understanding we must look to Malachi’s prophecy.
Dan Irving
In the 1st Century, the Jews simply stood as one fulfillment of this mystical principle. The meaning is deeper than merely racial.
Ryan Neil Rutan
Absolutely, Pharaoh did harden his heart, but so does all mankind apart from God’s grace. First, we must understand that no man seeks after God, not one does good (Ps. 3:11). But apart from that, let’s look at Romans 9 by itself. We are talking about the children of the promise. What is this promise? It is the promise of election to faith. Why do I say that? Because the promise hasn’t failed according to Paul in v. 6. How is this demonstrated as not failing? Paul says in Romans 9:11–13 (ESV)
11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Now imagine with me for just a moment, what is your natural reaction to electing before birth for one to have faith? Do you feel this is wrong? Naturally, yes! This is exactly why Paul anticipates this response as he says: Romans 9:14–18 (ESV)
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You can read the rest of the chapter and see this is the natural reading of the text. I will not bring you any explanation outside the chapter because it speaks for itself. Man is sinful, and we are dead in our sins apart from the regeneration of God. He is the one who is just and gracious. He has indeed given all men the option of believing, but we cannot because we will not until He gives us faith. That is not unjust. He would be just in damning all of us right now. Do you not agree? Why then should it be wrong to elect some, as the Scriptures say? This whole chapter anticipates people’s rejection of this because of one’s pride.
Tony Conger
Thanks but the bible plainly says every man has been given a measure of faith. The children of promise are not calvinistic elect but rather those who reject that we are acceptable to God through the law and that they only way we can come to God is through faith. I see how you view or through the prism of calvinism but I disagree. Also I’m curious since your said “he has indeed given all men the option of believing” so do you not believe in limited atonement?
Ryan Neil Rutan
Understood, you stand by your opinion. But, I have to say you are incorrect in God giving each man a measure of faith. Look at Rom. 12:3, and you will see that is given to each believer. But yes, I believe in limited atonement, or better put, definite atonement. All men everywhere are commanded to repent, thus an option given or a term of peace offered. This will be rejected by the unregenerate because they are slaves to their sin and love their sin. Ten Shekels and a Shirt is an excellent sermon on the total depravity of man. It is preached by Paris Reidhead and even as a former Arminian I enjoyed that message, so I’d recommend it brother.
Tony Conger
Thank you. So to clarify you believe God gives the command to repent but doesn’t regenerate that they could obey? So are they more totally depraved and in love with their sin than those who do become regenerate?
Ryan Neil Rutan
This is my final reply before going to bed since I have to be up quite early, though obviously you’re more than welcome to reply but I won’t until the morning. I absolutely believe what you said. For example, God raised Pharaoh up for his purpose of glorifying Himself in leading Israel out of Egypt. He gave the command to let His people go, but He raised Pharaoh up to be in the position of resistance that he was. Not because God is the author of this sin, but because Pharaoh did it out of the evil in his heart and God did it for good. This goes back to Joseph with his brothers saying, “You meant [my betrayal] for evil, but God meant it for good” (Gen. 50:20). So people are really doing evil out of their very real choices but God is sovereign over all those choices, a theological subject called compatibilism which is examined in a book by Scott Christensen called “What about Free Will?” So all men are totally depraved, but God calls and begins His regeneration within the elect, softening their hearts and drawing them to Himself until He births them into His kingdom. This is what happened to Paul and all children of God. The Scriptures say, “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God” – Jn. 1:12-13.
Ryan Neil Rutan
Might I say, you can’t will to be born. You’re just born.
Ricky Grimsley
It would be refreshing if I ever heard a Calvinist who believed he wasnt elect but still made all the arguments just to be right in spite of knowing he was going to hell.
Don Qualls
Contextually speaking; Romans 9 is about Corporate Election…but of course that will be disagreed with by the Calvinist.