| Dan Irving |
I’ve done quite a bit of reading of Holiness-era figures, and that seems a good question because I don’t recall reading anything on that issue. As for me, it would seem Hebrews Chapters 6 and 10 create the premise that we CAN fall away after entering into the knowledge of God (another word for sanctification.) In that case, the consequences are particularly severe. Peter writes it would have been better had we never had the knowledge of God, than to have it, and then lose it. On the other hand, there is much scripture that speaks God’s abundant mercies bestowed upon those who return to Him through repentance; and we have our Lord’s parable of the prodigal. It sounds to me as if the point-of-no-return is a place ascertainable only by the Spirit of God. |
| Joe Absher |
Mr Link you probably know alot more about living a sanctified life than I do. But would term, “first love” be helpful. I think any body can fall away because sin is so deceiving. and the heart can be overburdened and hardened by offense and the cares of this world. We need breaking and often. Maybe it’s one reason for Lord’s table. As we should examine our hearts there… |
| Link Hudson |
If someone claims to be sanctified, but then tells a lie, looks at porn, curses someone who cuts him off in traffic, or kills someone, would you say he never was truly sanctified to begin with? |
| Dan Irving |
There are two possibilities, either 1) This person has stumbled into sin and requires repentance for restoration, or 2) They have willfully cast aside their sanctification, in which case there is only reprobation. |
| Joe Absher |
It would hardly be called a falling away if no one fell. |
| Link Hudson |
A Pentecostal who believes in ‘saved and filled with the Holy Ghost’ might see sanctification as something a believer has to walk in every day, not a one-time event. But if those who see it as a one-time event believe you can lose it and get it again, how is that different from the other view? |
| Joe Absher |
I not to sure which view you mean. How many views are there? Does Hebrews 5:14 add anything to this conversation.”But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” Psalm 1. Also. We walk in light as God gives us light. Leaning on him for strength grace conviction. Think on these things. Courage obedience and doing right by God. The blood of Jesus makes us accepted before God. Nothing more nothing less. I may not know the finer points but I know sin has consequences. And I say no thanks!!! |
| Joe Absher |
I was convicted again for not praying in faith. The Bible says without faith it’s impossible to please God. So in my mind there’s always some dumb sin crouching at the door. We must be vigilant. Even after the surrender. The devil is a seducer. This is a spiritual walk. Never forget that. When Jesus takes your sin you’ll know. When you’re consecrated wholly to God you’ll know. I think Jesus is able to let you know where you stand with God. You’re right with God or you’re not. You’re a rebel or you’re not. |
| Dan Irving |
Link Hudson, That is one of the biggest Achilles’ Heels of the Wesleyan-Pentecostalism (aka “Second Work”) view (which I reject.) Their doctrine essentially requires that once you have spoken in tongues there cannot be a repentance from stumbling thereafter into sin (as their doctrine presumes upon “entire sanctification” as condition-precedent to receiving the baptism.) But obviously, that is a slippery slope to disastrous consequences in terms of counseling backsliders, as it leads to the rejection of those God may have cleansed through repentance. But, I believe the Wesleyan Pentecostal view is clear error. Wesleyanism, on the other hand, I regard as correct teaching; at least the Keswick camp of Wesleyanism. |
| Louise Cummings |
Street Preacherz well explained. |
| Louise Cummings |
Dan Irving. I need to explain. But it will be a few minutes. We are going in to eat. |
| Louise Cummings |
If they are say there is no chance of repentance after having the Holy Spirit. They are using the Scripture in Hebrews six. Where it says after you have been saved and tasted the heavenly gifts. And fall away. There’s no way to renew them again to Repentance. That is not talking about being saved , but you grow cold in the Lord. That you can’t come back to God. Look at the Prodigal Son. The Father was waiting on him to come home. He gave a party and put the Signet ring and shoes back on him. Renew him completely. You have to look at the word fall away. There was Jews I think it was Jews. Any way they excepted. The Lord and beloved it was Jesus Blood that saved them. Then they started believing that Jesus wasn’t the Son of God. And went back to offering animal sacrifices again. Counting Jesus was not the Son of God.thats called falling away not believing in Jesus Christ. That’s why that it’s impossible to renew them again unto Repentance. Because Romans 10:9 says you have to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and believe that Jesus died for our sins and arose from the dead. And confesses that with your mouth and you can be saved. When you once believe that Jesus was the Son Of God. And you fall away from believing in Jesus. Then it is impossible to be saved. But when you have excepted Jesus as Lord and except Him as your Savior. And all of a sudden. You decide I want to live worldly again butt you still believe Jesus’s really still is the son of God. That called back sliding by most people. And you become sorry you walked away from God. And you want to make things right with the Lord again. He will except you back with open arms again. But you can’t be saved if you if you don’t believe Jesus is Lord after you have had an experience with Him , and tasted of the Heavenly gifts. Then fall away. And you don’t even believe He’s God. No way you could be saved. That’s what that verse means. The way I understand it. Because Jesus loves people , or back sliders. Coming back home. Now people that never believed in God. And sees the Light that He is the Son of God. He will welcome them in the fold. |
| Joe Absher |
You’ve fallen when the blood of Christ is no longer holy to you. When the redemption and sacrifice of the cross is not central you’re in big trouble! There is no “oh we’re beyond the cross.” |
| Louise Cummings |
I don’t know all that Wesleyanism teach. |
| Gabroo Shah |
Not all Link- Oneness pentecostals are more so once saved always saved kind too, they depend on if one can speak in tongues, one event n person is saved post that gift…what say? |
| Louise Cummings |
I guess I’m old enough to be called old – timey.I never believed that. You can grow cold in the Lord. The Bible told the Church at Ephesus that He commended. But then He said I have somewhat against you. You have left your first love. Return or I will remove the candle stick. So you can grow cold in the Lord. If we don’t stay close to Him. |
| Marc Jackson |
This OP is falsely presented! No early Pentecostals believed they are “Once Sanctified Always Sanctified.” There is no such thing in Pentecostal theology at all. Early Pentecostals believed they are ENTIRELY sanctified. Only a non-Pentecostal near-Calvinistic mind set with strong baptist theology would be able to suspect that Entire Sanctification resembles even one little bit with the once saved always saved pinnacle of Calvinism Perhaps Dr. Melvin Harter will take the time to explain further entire sanctification to the group though the topic once approached with this baptist angle will most probably lead to nowhere… |
| Joe Absher |
Is there a doctrinal statement for the group. |
| Marc Jackson |
It was initially regarded as Pentecostal Theology forum/group (not page, board or whatever else comes in mind). In most cases when Pentecostal Theology is discussed we are germane. It is when neo – Pentecostal and bapticostal stuff starts coming up we are having some problems, for reasons we’ve discussed with Dan Irving and others… |
| Joe Absher |
Thank you. God’s word will always stand. It is unfortunate that some would mistake kindness for weakness. For myself I try to learn and understand. God’s people respect the cross of Jesus Christ and the person of the Holy Ghost as presented in the Bible. You can tell alot about a man by how he talks about Jesus. If he says the name Jesus like he’s says pass the Mac ‘n’ cheese that’s a red flag!…just saying |
| Joe Absher |
Ok dumb question, what’s German about Pentecost? |
| Marc Jackson |
germane/relevant not German – – – Pfingsten |
| Dan Irving |
Did we discuss something with Dan Irving? |
| Marc Jackson |
Dan Irving Yes the influence of NAR, 7 mountains, charismania, bapticostals and other no so solid and classical Pentecostal teachings out there |
| Gabroo Shah |
I feel if ppl focused on denying lust n worldly ways, I mean there probably wont be any OSAS. the whole idea is that even non-OSAS churches dont focus on living in Christ so its all sort of related |
| Ramsey Tamimi |
James 1:2-4 explains this. The OSAS is a misuse of the term, ‘sanctification.’ (Depending on a person’s Christian theology) Even the Once Saved Always Saved can be misused. Jesus clarifies this in a parable (Matthew 16:1-23. The use of absolutes in modern terms must scrutinized due to a lack of theological knowledge in common contemporary practices.I was saved by grace & mercy;I wasn’t saved by any work of my own. Therefore no work of my own can negate the salvation I received upon my conversion. Salvation and sanctification are NOT synonymous. Salvation refers to one’s conversion whereas sanctification is the PROCESS of becoming like Jesus.Although I understand these terms have different meanings based on what Christian theology a person prefers. |
| Ramsey Tamimi |
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| Linda A Shelley-Shelestowsky |
You can be sanctified but make many wrong turns & mistakes. We all suffer from weaknesses, some stay babies while others grow in the Lord. Some commit sin but God forgives. I believe we do not lose our salvation, its not about legalism, its about grace. |
| Joe Absher |
“John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.” – Luke 3:16,17 |
| Marc Jackson |
Street Preacherz The topic is basically OFF topic and in the wrong group OSAS abbreviation has nothing to do with proposed OP Entire Sanctification has nothing to do with once sanctified always sanctified. Overall poster presents a clear case for purely bapticostal approach toward Wesleyan Holiness Renewal Theology |
| Link Hudson |
You’ve got Baptist tunnel vision. If it doesn’t fit with your viewpoint, it must be Baptist, right? |
| Joe Absher |
Right! But important. Seems skewed from the outset granted. These are things that have divided us in the past. So clarity is essential. I believe in the Christian’s victory over sin. By the various means God gives us. But more importantly by the cross |
| Marc Jackson |
Link Hudson Bottom line: Entire Sanctification has nothing to do with with OSAS or your inspired “once sanctified always sanctified” |
| Link Hudson |
Troy Day, you mean you’ve never encountered someone who said he was sanctified and hadn’t sinned since the day he was sanctified. That’s one variant of the Holiness belief. Other posters on this thread find the OP to be relevant to the issue. I coined the term ‘Once Sanctified Always Sanctified.’ That’s true. I’m pointing out the similarity to that particular Holiness-movement viewpoint with Baptist soteriology. I realize not all Pentecostals of the Holiness side of the movement held to that view. If you can get sanctified, lose it, and get it again, how is that different from the other Pentecostal perspectives? |
| Joe Absher |
“Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”-2 Peter 1:4Faith brother. Standing on the promises of God! Constant intimate fellowship with God by the blood of Jesus and diligent faithful prayer. And of course a strong rebuke in Jesus name!!! |
| Gabroo Shah |
Link- May be you need to prove the basic TULIP as flawed as everything is somewhat related in Baptist kinda theology |
| Link Hudson |
Gabroo Shah I’m not arguing in favor of ‘TULIP’. Troy Day likes to label much of the Pentecostal movement as ‘Bapticostal’ and ‘accuse’ other posters of being Baptist or Calvinist. The question is a valid one. If one is sanctified once for all, can he lose his sanctification and get it back? Functionally, how is this different from believing one is sanctified at salvation and has to continue to walk in sanctification, and be sanctified if he falls? I am pointing out the similarity to this particular ‘Holiness’ viewpoint on sanctification with Baptist OSAS. That doesn’t mean I believe in TULIP. |
| Marc Jackson |
Gabroo Shah You just about got it there. Approaching Pentecostal experience and theology from a baptist / calvinist view point and looking for a close comparison is really not a Pentecostal approach of doing theology |
| Gabroo Shah |
Troy Day As much as I respect myself being a pentecostal, tell me that if you know jezebel never ruled girls who speak in tongues, Quality doesnt has a title, it is based on a person’s brought up n society more |
| Linda A Shelley-Shelestowsky |
Get your theology straight folks, you are debating the undebatable. |
| Joe Absher |
Is it theology to encourage the brethren to seek God and honor his Son Jesus Christ. Do you dismiss a discussion on an essential element of a life that is pleasing to God. Namely sanctification. Please let me plainly state, “There is victory over sin in Jesus Christ!” |
| Linda A Shelley-Shelestowsky |
I went to theology college. So all Christians interpret the Bible as God leads them. None is perfect. |
| Joe Absher |
The non commitment. |
| Linda A Shelley-Shelestowsky |
No Sir. You are very wrong. |
| Joe Absher |
Ok I’m wrong. You are very committed. To what? |
| Joe Absher |
Sanctification? |
| Joe Absher |
“But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.” – 1 Corinthians 1:30,31 |
| Link Hudson |
We are all, or should be, committed to sanctification. This thread points out that sanctification in the life of a believer is an ongoing thing that we have to continue to walk in. |
| Joe Absher |
You could have said that in the open |
| Marc Jackson |
Link Hudson If sanctification is ongoing how does the Holy Spirit enter the unclean unsanctified heart @ HS baptism? How is that possible? Would Holy Spirit dwell in unclean heart? Why did the disciples needed to be sanctified in John 17? Melvin Harter has explained this so many times here |
| Link Hudson |
Brother Harter stops answering questions that point out the weakness of his view, and then insists its in the Greek without explaining why. I asked what about the Greek verb indicated that sanctification happened before the point of time the author wrote but after the time one was saved. I don’t see how your question presents any problems for the issue of sanctification. When one becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus, old things are passed away, and all things are become new. What does the Bible say about the Holy Spirit dwelling in an unclean heart? Are you thinking of any scripture? Is this idea something that just seems logical to you? Do you consider those who have been cleansed from sin to be unclean? |
| Marc Jackson |
Another very shallow understanding of sanctification Melvin Harter |
Charles Page
He performs the new birth perfectly because it’s all from above but sanctification is cooperative with human means here below
Varnel Watson
except if you are Charles Page of course
Charles Page
Troy Day COG declaration of faith
Varnel Watson
Charles Page is your rule of life?
Charles Page
Troy Day no
Lyndsey Dunn
If the early church was completely set apart initially then Paul would not have written much of the New Testament.
Varnel Watson
come again? wasnt it Paul who instructed them to be sanctified and holy?
Lyndsey Dunn
Troy Day Of Course. Paul was teaching set apart believers, that they should be further set apart and that they have of hope one day being completely set apart. That pretty much sums up a large portion of his teaching. Many teach today that full sanctification is achieved at salvation. Others teach that full sanctification is achieved in a second work with no continuing process. COG and AG along with other Pentecostal denominations differ on these teachings historically.
Varnel Watson
Lyndsey Dunn hold on – are you talking about sanctification when you say setting apart?
Lyndsey Dunn
Yes
Lyndsey Dunn
Troy Day of course without diving into distinctions of justification, sanctification, sprit baptism, or glorification. My view is that each of these encompasses a form of God’s Sanctifying work.
RichardAnna Boyce
Holiness Pentecostals asserted that before one can receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit,[37]
they must first undergo the crisis experience of entire sanctification. This type of sanctification was seen as a definitive work of God’s grace that a believer receives much in the same way he receives salvation.
Other Pentecostals (like those who later formed the Assemblies of God) argued
that putting one’s faith in Christ’s forgiveness is the only precondition for receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They downplayed the importance of a second (or third) work of grace in which Christians are entirely sanctified,
and instead viewed sanctification as process.
Further refinement of the Pentecostal understanding of sanctification grew out of disagreements over the nature of the trinity.
In 1916, trinitarian disputes compelled the Assemblies of God to clearly delineate their beliefs in the form of a 16-point statement of faith.
This document touched on sanctification, but leaders soon recognized that the definition provided was vague and poorly formulated. Over time, however, the definition of sanctification was fleshed out. Instead of entire sanctification, they favored instantaneous sanctification (see 1 Cor. 6:11-12)
and progressive sanctification (2 Cor. 3:15), that is, that Christians are positionally sanctified at conversion
but then progressively sanctified over the course of their lives.
The distinction between instantaneous and progressive sanctification, promoted by the Assemblies of God,
moved away from the belief in entire sanctification espoused by the Holiness wing of the Pentecostal movement.
RichardAnna Boyce
Free Grace Pentecostals believe:-
Sanctification – Sanctify comes from the Greek word hagiadzo, meaning to be set apart or made fit for service (2 Timothy 2:19-22).
– Sanctification has a moral dimension (1 Thes. 4:3-7).
It involves turning away from immorality and turning towards God (Eph. 4:22-24; Gal. 5:16-6:5).
– Sanctification is spoken of as an accomplished event (1 Cor. 1:30,31;1 Cor. 6:11;Col. 3:9-10)
and as an ongoing process (Eph. 4:15-16,23).
We are sanctified in our position in Christ but our condition is far from perfect.
We still sin and won’t be perfected until Jesus returns (1 Thes. 5:23-24).
Sin
– Sin is any word, thought or action that that falls short of God’s perfect character (Rom. 3:23; Matt. 5; Rom. 14:23). Distinctions between “deliberate” and “unconscious” sins, or “willful” sins and “mistakes,”
are not made in the New Testament.
– No Christian is without sin (1 John 2:2; James 3:2; Phil. 3).
– There is a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit inside every Christian (Gal. 5:17).
Sometimes Christians lose this struggle and fall into sin (Gal. 6:1).
Other Christians should recognize their own vulnerability to temptation and restore the fallen brother (Gal. 6:2,3). Christians should not lose heart in this process, but continue doing good (Gal. 6:9,10).
Sin nature/ old man
– Christians are new creatures (2 Cor. 5:21) who have been freed from sin (Rom. 6:6-7).
– The old self is laid aside when a Christian is put into Christ (Col. 3:9-11; Rom. 6:6), but our habits and ways of thinking still present problems (Eph. 4:22-24).
– We still have our body of sin to reckon with (Eph. 4:22-24; Gal. 5:16-17).
– As a result, the habits of the old self need to be put aside daily as we learn to act consistently with our new identity in Christ (Eph. 4:22-24).
Perfection
– Christians will never reach a sinless state on this side of the grave (Phil. 3:12-16; James 3:2; 1 John 1:8-10).
I reject the Wesleyan notion of freedom from known sin and the Keswick teaching on freedom from deliberate sin. Claims to perfection are fertile ground for self-deception and rationalization.
Process/ Crisis
Bible teaches that sanctification is an ongoing process (Gal. 3:3; Eph. 4:15-16; 1 Thes. 4:1,10; 2 Peter 1:3-8).
During this process, the new man is transformed into Christ’s image (2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:23; Col. 3:10)
and increased victory is won over sin (Eph. 4:22-24; Gal. 5:16-6:5; 1 Thes. 4:3-7).
– Crises that promote growth can and do occur in the life of a Christian (2 Cor. 1:8-11; 2 Cor. 12:1-10).
The New Testament teaches nowhere, however, that crises such as surrender (Keswick), entire sanctification (Wesley), or the Baptism of the Holy Spirit are normative experiences that should be sought by all Christians. Christians are never urged to seek life-defining post-conversion crisis experiences.
Instead we hear more about not losing heart, not growing weary (Gal. 6:9-10)
and pressing on with the acknowledgment we have not become perfect (Phil. 3:12-16; Gal. 5:16-6:10).
God’s role and man’s role
– God accomplishes our sanctification (1 Thes. 5:24;Phil. 1:6; Hebrews 13:20-21)
through the agency of the Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:2).
He causes us to grow and change, and we cooperate (Phil. 2:12-13).
We pursue our sanctification (1 Tim. 6:11; Heb. 12:14), trust God that we are free from sin (Rom. 6:11)
and that he can renew us (Col. 3:1-11), and participate in the means of grace:
learning the Word of God (1 Peter 2:2), participating in fellowship (Eph. 4:15-16),
responding to God’s discipline (Heb. 12:11), praying (Rom. 8:26; James 5:16),
and giving our lives away to serve others (John 13:17).
Maturity
– Bible makes distinctions between the maturity level of different Christians (Heb. 5:11-14; Gal. 5:13-15; 1 Cor. 2:6). But this distinction is based on knowledge of the Word of God,
not on whether or not someone has had an experience such as entire sanctification.
Baptism of Holy Spirit
– The Baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at conversion and involves the placement of a new convert
into the body of Christ and the receiving of the indwelling presence of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13). Nowhere does the Bible urge Christians to seek a second baptism of, in, by, or with the Holy Spirit after their conversion.
Role of the Holy Spirit in sanctification
– The Spirit fills believers and empowers Christians for service (Eph. 5:18; Acts 4:8; Acts 7:55)
and is responsible for transforming them into conformity with Christ (Rom. 8:4,11).
– The filling of the Holy Spirit is a temporary experience that Christians must repeatedly seek. Through this filling,
the Holy Spirit empowers Christians to serve God more effectively (Acts 4:8,31; 6:3,5; 7:55; 9:17; 11:24).
– The filling of the Holy Spirit is similar or identical to Paul’s notion of “walking according to the Spirit” in Rom. 8:1-11.
– The Spirit also helps Christians to understand the meaning of scripture (1 Cor. 2:12; I John 2:27),
assures believers they are God’s children (Rom. 8:16),
and distributes gifts to help Christians serve more effectively (1 Cor. 12:7; 1 Peter 4:10).
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce did God make and exception with you and Charles Page while sanctifying His creation?