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John Conger | PentecostalTheology.com
Question for those who do not belief in gap theory. When do you say dinosaurs lived? Also about light from stars etc? Was the light created in transit?
Randy Buchanan [01/02/2016 9:11 PM]
I don’t buy the traditional gap theory. I think the 24 hours days did not start until after the third day. All previous day’s could have lasted for any amount of time.
“And there was evening and there was morning, the third day. And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so.”
Genesis 1:13-15 ESV
http://bible.com/59/gen.1.13-15.esv
It was not until the third day that time existed, “And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years…”
Joshua Silva [01/02/2016 9:24 PM]
I don’t believe the dinosaurs ever lived…I had a feeling it was always just a lie…with all these dinosaur bones bull.
Brian Mathis [01/02/2016 10:19 PM]
There is some evidence that they coexisted. Given the rate at which animals go extinct in 6000 years it is possible. The fossil record indicates a catastrophe wiped them out. The flood would explain it. Never gave much thought to the light point.
Stan Wayne [01/02/2016 10:44 PM]
this is interesting but for some reason, contentious – but it is difficult to understand rejecting fossil evidence of extinct animals and starlight being ancient
Eric Shonebarger [01/02/2016 11:35 PM]
Day-Age Theory works with dinosaurs and the fossil record.
John Kissinger [01/03/2016 5:56 AM]
like Ricky Grimsley always says: which scripture verse(s) are we working with here John Conger or are we discussing Jurassic park?
Ricky Grimsley [01/03/2016 8:21 AM]
Its possible that dinosaurs and humans lived together. The “sons of god” didnt just make human/angel hybrids but also animal. I think these verses elude to that. Genesis 6:7,11-12 KJVS
[7] And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. [11] The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. [12] And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
John Kissinger [01/03/2016 8:22 AM]
some Adventists believe in that – big dinos were a food source
John Conger [01/03/2016 9:13 AM]
No scripture but we need to be able to answer atheists and others
John Kissinger [01/03/2016 9:13 AM]
Trust Hollywood for good theology do not.
— yoda (@CalvinistYoda) October 10, 2014
Brian Mathis [01/03/2016 4:59 PM]
You can also look at Dake’s Pre-Adamic theology if you have issue with time frames. If it was correct the fossil record would be from the first earth. All of which is prior to the Genesis account.
John Kissinger [01/03/2016 5:00 PM]
yes John Conger look at your Dake already 🙂
John Conger [01/03/2016 5:05 PM]
Lol I know what I believe. I was asking those who don’t accept the gap theory. Most young earth people that I’ve heard either say dinosaurs aren’t real orthey coexisted with man. Both of which make us look like fools to the world. We should never taylor our beliefs to the world’s view but I also believe that while scientific theory does not always support scripture, scientific discovery does
John Kissinger [01/03/2016 5:06 PM]
The pre-Adamic race GAP theory explains it all:
1. Where lost souls come from? 2. Where the demons come from? 3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens? 4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan? 5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories? 6. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)? 7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives? 8. Age of earth? 9. The disappearing of the dinosaucers and why where no dinosaucers in Noah’s ark? 10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?
Just try to explain the above without pre-Adamic race GAP theory and you will see for yourself… #ourCOG http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/gap-theory-creationism/
Mike Albright [01/04/2016 9:56 AM]
My answer to the OP: 1. Dinosaurs went on the ark with Noah. They are mentioned in the book of Job and are contemporary with him. 2. The speed of light is not constant, which has been scientifically demonstrated. It is much faster in the void of space.
Ricky Grimsley [01/04/2016 10:03 AM]
Much faster….? Like double or triple? It would have to be almost infinite for adam to have noticed stars right after creation. Saying job mentions dinosaurs is reaching. One of those creatures is the devil.
Stan Wayne [01/04/2016 10:04 AM]
Mike – I understand the hypothesis but try as many may these kinds of young earth positions just don’t hold up to scrutiny – unless it is unspiritual to scrutinize them – consider:
1) the logic in saving dinosaurs and thousands of other extinct animals from extinction on the ark only to have them go extinct almost immediately after
2) the thousands of pairs of dinosaurs of different “kinds” (lizards don’t mate with crocodiles) in order for them to survive – the formidable size of the ark would not be enough for all the biggies like Rex etc
3) even with your light speed hypothesis – how many speedy light years away are you saying stars are? 6000 or more?
Stan Wayne [01/04/2016 10:05 AM]
4) the rock layers a mile deep visible in the Grand Canyon but present elsewhere
Ricky Grimsley [01/04/2016 10:07 AM]
Young earth people have a huge problem explaining where demons come from
Stan Wayne [01/04/2016 10:10 AM]
I think demons are not dispositive of this matter because they may be unrelated to our time scheme and could have been created and fallen long before Gen 1:1 – the eternal and physical realms being so different
John Conger [01/04/2016 10:14 AM]
A brontosaurus on the ark? Really?
Ricky Grimsley [01/04/2016 10:31 AM]
Lol what a bout a t rex while while we are fantasizing
John Kissinger [01/04/2016 10:33 AM]
or a mini-taurus John Ruffle
Ricky Grimsley [01/04/2016 10:33 AM]
Ricky Grimsley [01/04/2016 10:34 AM]
Mary Ellen Nissley
I don’t know if can believe in the gap theory. After all, it’s just a theory. There’s really no need to believe in any theories.
The Word says in Exodus 31:17 “… in six days the LORD made heaven and earth…”
Noah didn’t have to take full-grown animals on the ark. How fast do baby dinosaurs and baby elephants grow anyhow?
And the large deposits of large animal fossils are very logical, in the context of a Genesis flood… but not so logical outside of that context… go check out what it takes in terms of pressure and heat to create a fossil. Under normal conditions, bones eventually decay, instead of making fossils.
Deut 29:29 “The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us…”
Colossians 2:18 “Let no man beguile you …intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind…”
……………………………………………………………………………
It’s like this.
If God is omnipotent, He can create as He wishes. He can make light in transit. He can make things look older than they really are.
But, you say we need to defend our faith before unbelievers, to make it look reasonable?
No we don’t.
The real problem with unbelief is the fact that they lean on human logic, instead of on knowing God.
When we join them in leaning on logic, we are playing their game, in their ballpark, defined by their rules, which they reserve the right to change at their discretion.
This is not defending the faith.
If faith rests on logic, it is faulty. True faith rests in the power of God.
I Corinthians 2:4,5
“And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.”
The best way to defend faith, is to walk so deeply with God that His power flows freely and unhindered through us, as it did through great men of faith years ago.
Like Smith Wigglesworth… now there’s a man who brought many to faith in Christ!
He wasn’t all that smart, either.
All he had to do is pray a cancer off someone, or raise someone from the dead.
Anyone who refused to believe after such a display of God’s power would resist all the pure logic you could bring to the table.
Varnel Watson
Pete Fiske Ricky L Bagwell Henry Volk You guys may have your sources mixed up. Thomas Newberry Reference Bible of 1890 published in London first spoke of Gap theory not Scofield or Dake
Without Gap theory you cannot explain neither of the following :
1. Where lost souls come from?
2. Where the demons come from?
3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?
5. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?
etc. Do you have answers to those? Please share! As John Conger and Ricky Grimsley has pointed our already , it is virtually impossible to give a straight Biblical answers to the above question without involving the Genesis Gap theory at one point or another http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-pre-adamic-race-gap-theory-explains-it-all/
Ricky Grimsley
They have all the answers they want. Some people are afraid to use their brain when they study the bible. For some even having a conversation about different theories is heresy. Lol
Ricky L Bagwell
Troy day has a lot of good questions, and I am working on the best answers for Troy to understand my studies. And I am enjoying the research. Even though I have research and studied them. But to answer the questions to some one who believes something different than me it takes something much greater than my mind.
I asked a question early in this conversation. And I was asking this. Does gap theorist believe that God, if He wanted to could have created the Heavens and earth in 1- 24 hour period. And I will add another, is God all powerful. Can He do all things creat all things . When I read the Bible I ask for the understanding of the scriptures to be given to me by the Holy Spirit. That is using my brain. Some times and I mean sometimes when I use my on understanding most of that time I am wrong. Can you explain to me the wisdom in the gap theory?
Ricky Grimsley
The wisdom of the gap theory allows you not to get bogged down in a science discussion when you are witnessing or in a discussion with atheists or evolutionists. You can share christ without being dismissed right off the bat because you think the earth is 6000 years old or earth universe revolves around the sun or other nonsense. It also allows for defense of Gods character in the arena of the fall of man and fall of lucifer. Also, it explains several scriptures, without destroying the text. Its about taking scriptures the seemingly disagree and creating a reality where both are true.
Mary Ellen Nissley
The theory of Evolution wasn’t invented by Darwin. It had been around in ancient Greek philosophy since about 500 years before Christ.
But did Paul make room for that when addressing the pagans on Mars Hill?
No. He simply preached to them the truth of Creation.
Because if you don’t accept Creation, you have no foundation for the Gospel.
Because if death entered the world before Adam’s sin, then death was not the penalty of sin.
And if death is not the penalty of sin, then Christ’s death could not atone for sin.
Ricky Grimsley
That only proves my point. Sin entered our world with adam but sin entered the universe and past world through satan. Surely you dont believe that scripture means that adam was the first “anyone” to sin? What about satan? Didnt he sin first?
Mary Ellen Nissley
If it is as you say, then where’s the Scriptural proof? All I see is mental muscle being applied to the Scriptures, to make them fit into the form of current “scientific” thought.
Ricky Grimsley
Jeremiah 4 and ezekiel 28 are enough for me, but its easy for me to see that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”and they became without form and void,,, because Isaiah says the world was created to be inhabited. If you really want to find the answers…you will. If you have a theory in when lucifer fell id sure love to hear it.
Mary Ellen Nissley
Jeremiah 4 is future, not past.
Ezekiel 28 says nothing of the sort that you say it does.
And yes, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth… but it does NOT say that they BECAME without form and void.
The Hebrew “Hayah” simply means “to exist”. It CAN mean “to become” but usually means a constant state of being.
We are not told when the angels fell. This is something that has not been revealed. It is one of the secret things, which belong to God. Deut. 29:29.
And when we try to pry into those things about angels that are not revealed to us, we become puffed up in our fleshly understanding (Col. 2:18) thinking we have gained knowledge that was hidden from others. This is the basis of Gnosticism.
We need no theory about when Lucifer fell.
Those kinds of theories intrigue the imagination, but do nothing to exalt Christ.
The fact is, that the word says clearly the whole of the heavens and the earth were made within 6 days.
Exodus 31:17 “… in six days the LORD made heaven and earth…”
No room for a gap there.
Ricky Grimsley
He did create what we see now in six days. How did god create light and night and day before he created the lights that govern night and day?
Mary Ellen Nissley
Your question has nothing to do with the gap theory, but with questioning the very idea of Creationism.
He himself is spiritual light. All of what we see in the physical realm, proceeds from the spiritual.
In Einstein’s famous formula, E=mc2, is contained the secret of Creation.
On that first day, God’s own light was given physical properties, such as direction and speed (which includes the property of time.) And from those newly-created physical laws, God created matter.
The earth could not have been created before the properties of light were created. Scientifically.
Out of God’s own energy, came matter. (E=mc2)
After matter came into physical being, God evidenced His own light, in physical form.
And this was ALL created on Day One.
It is the spinning of the earth that makes day and night.
All God did to make day and night, was to set the earth into rotation.
If you are going to get all scientific about trying to make Genesis 1 fit into evolutionary theory, you are going to have a time of it.
It was a supernatural event. Let it remain so.
Ricky Grimsley
If god was the “light” then why was there darkness?
Pete Fiske
There is no ‘wisdom’ in the Gap heresy, its false doctrine that is compromise with evolution and its necessary component, ‘millions of years.’
Ricky Grimsley
Its not heresy. Simmer down.
Pete Fiske
The idea of a ‘gap’ is indeed heresy, since its no found anywhere specifically in any of the 66 books of either Testament, let alone inferred or implied.
Mary Ellen Nissley
Ricky Grimsley If God is spiritual light today, then why is there spiritual darkness today?
Ricky L Bagwell
Lucifer fell before Adam and sin came into man at that time when Eve took and ate the fruit and gave it to Adam. Now the exact time and date that lucifer sinned against God is ill relevant. No one knows Gods exact time, to Him 1 day is like a 1000 years so why is seconds, minutes hours and days so important. It was all done in Gods timing.
The earth does rotate around the sun if it didn’t we would burn up, and if the does spin on an axis we would then freeze, burn and loose gravity. The earth is set in such a perfect place that allows us to survive. God did that. If I wanted to prove scientifically that is where I would start.
Pete Fiske
What About the Gap & Ruin-Reconstruction Theories?
Because of the accepted teachings of evolution, many Christians have tried to place a gap of indeterminate time between the first two verses of Genesis 1. Genesis 1:1–2 states: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.”
There are many different versions as to what supposedly happened during this gap of time, but most versions of the gap theory place millions of years of geologic time (including billions of animal fossils) between the Bible’s first two verses. This version of the gap theory is sometimes called the ruin-reconstruction theory.
Most ruin-reconstruction theorists have allowed the fallible theories of secular scientists to determine the meaning of Scripture and have, therefore, accepted the millions-of-years dates for the fossil record.
Millions of years of death
Some theorists also put the fall of Satan in this supposed period. But any rebellion of Satan during this gap of time contradicts God’s description of His completed creation on Day 6 as all being “very good” (Genesis 1:31).
All versions of the gap theory impose outside ideas on Scripture and thus open the door for further compromise. [http://bit.ly/1dZD9QU]
https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/gap-theory/what-about-the-gap-and-ruin-reconstruction-theories/
Ricky Grimsley
Every night adam looked in the sky he saw different stars? He didnt see his first star until four years after creation? Nonsense.
Pete Fiske
Ricky, we’ve had these discussions before and your pathetic understanding of science a d how it applies to Scripture is alarming, and sadly quite endemic of most theologically and scientifically illiterate Christians. You need to start with reading Hosea 4:6, then analyze your statement. For one…as we know in physics, the speed of light (300,000 km/sec) and the passage of time aren’t universal constants when one considers the relativistic expansion of space-time (Inflation) during the first two literal 24 hour days (earth time) of Creation Week.
John Conger
perhaps mr fiske got his ideas from the book of adam and eve. in that book when adam sees the sun go down for the first time he dies of a heart attack
Ricky Grimsley
Mr. Fiske’s mind is as closed as the DMV on christmas. Has about the same attitude as well.
Mary Ellen Nissley
Ricky Grimsley There’s a good reason the DMV is closed on Christmas. And there’s a very good reason for US to close our minds to false doctrines such as these.
Pete Fiske
Ricky, when it comes to what the Scriptures say about the age of the earth, the origin of life and man, and thr objective evidence from science, all of these parallel pathways of unvarnished information tell a specific story, none of which includes a ‘gap’ in order to make room for the make-believe millions of years an otherwise plausible reality, when it actually wasn’t.
Mary Ellen Nissley
Besides which, if you really believe “the earth was without form, and void”, you wouldn’t expect there to be any fossils left over to tell tales, would you?
Ricky Grimsley
Smarter people than us have disagreed about this since before we were born. If you want to believe that dinosaurs are fake or we live in holographic universe or that angels and demons are the same things, or pretrib rapture…..thats fine. However, when you start using words like heresy then you are going to far in my opinion. When you start calling people’s knowledge pathetic because they dont agree with you its just not nice. Ok so im not a scientist. But im sure no one else is on here either and we are relying on what other people say about science. Its not like any if you are actually conducting experiments to check in the speed of light.
Ricky Grimsley
Mary Ellen Nissley actually yes i would because it was covered with water after the creation of hell.
Mary Ellen Nissley
Ricky Grimsley Wow, you’ve got a big imagination.
For me, “without form” means literally “without form”.. and that includes the forms of fossils
And “void means “empty.”
John Conger
I believe without form means no governmental or social structure. Wouldn’t there have to be no gravity for it to actually be without form
Mary Ellen Nissley
We don’t know, John Conger.
All of this is about stuff WE DON’T KNOW!
Except we DO know that Ezekiel 38 says Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden, as a perfect created being. And that was AFTER verse 2!
Varnel Watson
God knows all the stars – and all the hairs. He knows it ALL !!!
Pete Fiske
Troy do you believe earth is flat, or a sphere? Also, do you think the Apollo missions to the Moon really happened, or were they faked?
Mary Ellen Nissley
“Uranium and thorium generate helium atoms as they decay to lead. A study published in the Journal of Geophysical Research showed that such helium produced in zircon crystals in deep, hot Precambrian granitic rock has not had time to escape.25 Though the rocks contain 1.5 billion years worth of nuclear decay products, newly-measured rates of helium loss from zircon show that the helium has been leaking for only 6,000 (± 2000) years.26 This is not only evidence for the youth of the earth, but also for episodes of greatly accelerated decay rates of long half-life nuclei within thousands of years ago, compressing radioisotope timescales enormously.”
More @ http://www.icr.org/article/evidence-for-young-world/
Ricky L Bagwell
Good read Mary
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Varnel Watson
so here we go again Shane Bellamy Gary Micheal Epping Isara Mo Pete Fiske this is ONE of the earliest discussions we had on this in 2016 or maybe even sometime prior to that but recorded around 2016 It is ALL good questions that cannot be explained without GAP theory And they are not small questions either We will post more in relations to NOAH pretty soon that proves this point nicely Now then Ricky Grimsley where about is @john conger who started this discussions AND more importantly will he come back to be part of it again
From 1814, gap creationism was popularized by Thomas Chalmers, who attributed the concept to the 17th-century Dutch Arminian theologian Simon Episcopius. Chalmers became a divinity professor at the University of Edinburgh, founder of the Free Church of Scotland, and author of one of the Bridgewater Treatises.
Shane Bellamy
Why would God call his creation good if Satan was already fallen? As he was supposed to be part of the host of heaven.
That is why I believe he fell after creation week
James P. White
The word age is aion, which means a period of time. This is how an AG pastor explained it to me. I don’t think the first 7 “days” were literal 24 hour days but periods of time. I also don’t think the Bible was meant to be a science book. 38 chapters in Genesis were devoted to Abraham and his family. Genesis is the beginning, the beginning of the people of Israel.
Varnel Watson
James P. White I believe Peter Vandever OR @pete fiske will strongly disagree with your AG young earth stance here