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This was a really good read. Not the best title but I know so many other females in ministry who have had to deal with the “haunted” over and over again and you would think that among pentecostals, this would not so often be the case given our long history of affirming women in ministry. I recommend it to men and to women alike; to men in the hopes of enlightenment, freedom and support and to women because they need to know they are not crazy for thinking they were experiencing this….over and over again.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/3-female-ghosts-that-haunt-the-church
What happened to Jezebel? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/2015-strategy-of-jezebel/
Tim Hall http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-jezebel-spirit-is-active-in-the-church-today/
Varnel Watson
Ever had experience with those? David Lewayne Porter
David Lewayne Porter
? Where is the article?
All I see is commentary and comments.
Terri Tippins
I would love to read an article on this page, but never can. Do we have to subscribe somewhere?
David Lewayne Porter
Exactly
Varnel Watson
I was quite confident you two can figure how to click around the internet
Varnel Watson
Confident you two can click the picture / link and find the article. Now to the important question: Pastor Dean Steenburgh recently shared the following about the manifestation of a demon through a church leader in his congregation. While not aiming to dispute the possibles both his account and response at his Pentecostal church in California are very both Biblical. I will leave it to him to give you more details if desired but here’s the brief account he published on the internet:
“At the very end of the service last Sunday as the altar call was winding down & many people had already left or were in the process of leaving, I was asked to pray for this certain woman.
She has attended many times before & always comes across a little cranky or maybe rude.
So while I was praying for her she said, ‘I feel very, very hot on my back, face & neck as though I’m near a fire.’ We asked her did she want some water & she declined.
I asked her did she want me to continue to pray & she nodded affirmative. While I was praying she said to me, ‘don’t pray for her it won’t do any good.’
I sensed something spiritual so I began to ask her questions & she hurled multiple insults & dirty language at those of us praying for her. Her arms & hands stiffened up & at times her hands turned inward as though she had a bad case of MS disease.
I tried unsuccessfully for almost an hour to get her to talk to me but based on the reputation she has had with most people it was determined she didn’t want to let go of the spirit.
About an hour later I did have a much better time praying with her & helping her to get relief but I don’t think she is fully delivered in my opinion.
So while that was happening one of my key support leaders, not a ministry leader but a really dependable support leader “Suddenly” starts manifesting what seemed like the exact same behavior except she was trying to fight it off.
For several minutes she gave all the signs of someone who is in the final stages of being delivered & then again “Suddenly” she was let go & came to her right mind.
She could not recall one moment of this attack nor did she have any memory of how she responded to us until she was alert & in her right mind.
The only way I know how to explain this is that the devil wanted to occupy her & she fought him off in the spirit & in the flesh. We all know this is a spiritual battle but also in her flesh she was doing all she could to fight back.
I learned afterward that not long ago her best friend was trying to get her to attend a palm reader & the medium told her many things about her life in the present as well as in the future & all of it came to pass except one thing & that was the death of her husband (odd story all by itself how he lived).
She never went back but was curious about her horoscope that her friend would read her each day. She had already stopped these things long ago but as I told her she kept the spiritual door open in the manner of her curiosity & never fully gave that part of her faith to the Lord.
There is several weird twists to the story & it involves both of the women who were manifesting the demonic attacks but I’ll save that for later if needed.
Oddly enough, before this happened, we had already announced that our Monday night commentary class was going to be on demon possession.
Also on Sunday morning we had decided over the last few weeks that we were going to change up our communion presentation to make it more meaningful.
We used candles in the chapel area while we dimmed the lights for the effect. The first lady told us during the deliverance session that she sensed evil enter the building as soon as she saw the women going around & lighting the various candles.
During the communion we had a divine message in tongues & interpretation with many in the church weeping with tears of joy, it was awesome!
To say that this has been a topic amongst our church folks this week is an understatement.
It’s also caused a great spiritual awakening & it’s been great! “
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
When the links are clicked on, and the pictures, and it runs in circles.
Picture, link address – returns to comments, without the article, at least for me on a mobile device.
Trust me,
I know how to access links and articles.
If it is an issue, then you may not want to tag me.
Varnel Watson
I was quite confident you can figure it out at the end 🙂
David Lewayne Porter
I got on your link from another device.
To answer your question,
Experience with these;
Yes,
I shut them down and move on!
1) usurper – I remove them from all authority positions and forget them. When people ask why, I make sure that person informs them of the truth.
2) temptress – that is ‘an’ issue “within” the minister.
You are tempted as you are drawn away of your own lust.
The temptress has no control unless the minister wants her to have it – regardless of what she is wearing.
I allow no room for it. I am always accompanied by someone that is there to deter such things from going on. I have refused counseling people because they wanted it to be only me in the room with them.
3) the child, I treat them as the child they want to be.
I put them in time out and let them know why.
They get to come out when they grew up and can wear big “child” pants.
Varnel Watson
Bro Dean Steenburgh has shared more details on the developing story with a demon manifesting through his church leader during his services:
“Thank you to everyone for the kind words of support & the fact that you believe me, truly I have no motive to lie about something so bizarre as the events from last Sunday.
The dear woman who is involved in our leadership team admitted this week in having not closed the doors of curiosity to the dark realm of spirits. In the past 2-3 years she had not pursued any attempts at trying to reach dead family members or even having her fortune told as she had in the past. But the enemy is real & he knows how to attack the weak in the spirit. I don’t feel as though she were possessed but I feel as though the enemy wanted to occupy her being only to find her spirit was occupied with that which is holy. This would explain how she went from being a praying servant, trying to help the 1st lady, to being a victim herself of the enemy. As I said this lasted for several minutes but in my spirit I did not discern that she were possessed but merely attacked, assaulted or oppressed by the demon.”
David Lewayne Porter
I agree with this (as posted),
Especially the state sentence.
Troy Day
This is not the way that you have addressed the topic in the past.
There is a question that has not been addressed;
In the two posts
The person involved was called a “praying servant”, “a key support leader”, and is on the “leadership team”.
Yet the writer states, “she WENT FROM being ‘a praying servant, trying to help the 1st lady, to being a victim herself of the enemy”!”
In light of God’s view of witchcraft and consulting familiar spirits, and in light of how God had them dealt with during the Old Testament; add to that the way that the church dealt with them and the tools of their trade in the New Testament; notice the timing from when they believed and when they did this…
The question that demands to be asked is
Is she still considered a *believer, Christian, sister* during the time from when she dealt with and dabbled in curious arts up until the time she repented for her error/SIN? (Did she repent of her sin)?
The article said “having not closed the door”.
Are we believers if we have not closed the door to satan and sin?
Let me put it this way;
Is a (c)hristian in another country that ‘still’ practices voodoo because of the culture they live in and the history they have actually a believer?
It is the same thing being discussed here.
Paul addresses this in 1 Corinthians chapter 10.
Varnel Watson
A church leader open for demonization and acting controlled by the demon without any consent or memory of it is exactly what we’ve been addressing in the past. If it has not been clear enough let me clarify again – it is exactly what we’ve been addressing in the past. Now some very concerning questions because I am really having difficulty grasping is how a demon could overwhelm a key leader in your church, someone washed in the blood of Christ, full of the Holy Spirit, and was then “let go” implying the demon had control of her actions before she “came to her right mind” implying the demon had control of her mind:
1. How does a demon/evil spirit/etc. gain instantaneous (or as you said, “suddenly”) control over one in whom the Spirit of God dwells? Can a demon do this at will to a believer?
2. Does the Holy Spirit just say, “Come on in devil, there’s room for both of us in here?”
3. Could this have been a generational curse attacking the “key leader” because of something her great-great-grandmother was involved in?
4. What does the Bible mean when it says “Greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world?
5. Is there any validity to the statement “Sin shall not have dominion over you?”
David Lewayne Porter
Answers
1) it was not instantaneous control.
There is a difference between having control and applying influence.
The writer himself said she “had not closed the door”.
The influence of ‘control’ is there, just not manifested or revealed.
2) Holy Spirit does not do that.
You can’t serve two masters.
There is a reason that we are given discerning of spirits (plural, more than one), try the spirits (plural, more than one), satan and his ministers can be transformed into angels of light, and as ministers of righteousness *go look it up, I did, it is very enlightening* – that is they are appearing as if they are, and this one;
Please pay EXTREME attention to verse 36
Luke 11:34-36
The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is FULL of darkness. Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. 36 If thy whole body therefore be FULL of light, having NO PART dark, the WHOLE shall be FULL of LIGHT, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.
3) No!
She sought out familiar spirits opening the door. She personally sought communication with the dead. She personally is going after things Her God, Lord , Saviour, and Bible tell her to leave alone and flee from.
Let’s take the source you shared as the source shall we,,, the writer and source stated as one being there and dealing with her
“she having not closed the door”.
Even ‘IF’ one wants to bring a generational curse in, she has the responsibility to “close the door” *tightly* shut.
This is her responsibility.
4) exactly,
So if she is over come by he who is in the world, does she have HE Whom is Greater living within her?
– we consider those believers that are going to be rejected by God in the end as The Lamb passes judgement/justice.
5) you quoted Romans chapter 6 verse 14;
You need to read the entire chapter that says not to yield your members to be servants to sin because to whom you yield your members that is your master.
Here are the two verses just before your quoted verse:
Romans 6:12-13
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
So, she can’t question with any honesty why this happened.
To whom did she yield her members (and life) to when she transgressed God’s ordinances and commands when she sought out darkness?
We are under grace
yet grace demands more of us;
Acts 17:30-31
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
And
Hebrews 10:26-29
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Vs 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
I will rest here for now.
Varnel Watson
What exactly is the “difference between having control and applying influence”? The Bible makes no such difference. Also, from what’s written I am having hard time establishing a definite timeline for the possession. If understood correctly seems like a long-lasting thing that simply manifested itself at the given location/time/occurrence. Was it done and dealt with once and for all?
David Lewayne Porter
You shared the source Troy Day.
Did you read his last sentence?
Varnel Watson
Did you? I’ve read it all several times over the weekend. I have no reason to doubt the truth in what pastor Dean Steenburgh is sharing. I believe demons could manifest through church people and need to be dealt with properly.
But I do not understand the reasoning / timing behind it
1. key support leaders, not a ministry leader but a really dependable support leader
2. For several minutes she gave all the signs of someone who is in the final stages of being delivered
3. She could not recall one moment of this attack nor did she have any memory
Now: “I learned afterward that not long ago her best friend was trying to get her to attend a palm reader & the medium told her many things”
and 2 just sentences down: “She had already stopped these things long ago”
Was it recent or was it long ago. And was it dealt with promptly?
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
Yes I read it.
Your issue appears to be that what he says is clashing with the way you want to interpret and apply scripture that applies to demonology.
Define church people please.
Really, please stop right now and reply with your understanding of “church people”…
Do you believe all church people are saved?
Or sanctified?
Or Spirit Filled to Baptism?
Back to the conversation at hand,,
Is she what she appeared to be up to that point when things manifested?
Are you trying to form things to your thinking
or
Are you willing to form your thinking to the way things are?
Troy you have read but not understood…
Your – 2,
Were they final signs of being delivered or beginning signs of manifestation?
I believe that you are looking at the wrong end of the horse.
You quoted, “she had already stopped these things long ago”.
But you willing omitted he said, she “having not closed the doors”.
The main and only real issue and question is,,,
Has SHE personally from the heart
REPENTED?
I am not concerned about the ‘promptness’ as I am “properly”.
Varnel Watson
The answers of your questions are not debatable per OP They are defined well by the testimony given. Pls see my response related to the (1) validity and (2) importance of the described situation in our churches today. No need for your deviation in terminology when church and people’s lives are on the line…
David Lewayne Porter
I have not deviated.
If you think I have that is why we are having issues communicating.
My questions are to get you to reexamine your questions and issues as you stated that you were “having difficulty grasping”.
You did say that didn’t you?
So who deviated?
If you and can’t see how the questions and answers relate to the OP as a follow up as you replied in this thread
then there is most of the issue and why it is hard for you to be discerning the situations presented, the spirits involved, and the root causes behind them.
I don’t look at the situation.
It doesn’t matter.
What matters is
The Spirit involved and the root cause/history that got us here.
Deliver her all you want.
If she has not closed all doors and does not return to it then her deliverence will be short lived..
What do you want, deliverence now, or permanently?
Was that easy enough to understand?
Varnel Watson
Here’s my point – not sure why you cant or dont want to understand it all this time. We have no reason to doubt the testimonty presented by bro Steenburgh Not only that but we need to make sure we get all the details out and train our churches to respond properly.
Truth is as the Gospel spreads and the Kingdom advances in the last days, resistance from demons – yes demons in the church – will grow as well. They will use every open door they can to disturb the ministry of deliverance as this testimony has shown. With this said:
1. A long time member in good standing with the church is open to demonic activity (influence or possession matters very little to the actual Biblical context)
2. They may be involved in ministry and/or be close to people involved in ministry and able to influence them directly or indirectly
3. The timeline here is important to me personally. Why else is such activity allowed within the church without proper discernment and delivery i.e. casting out demons???
4. Please do note further that the presence of demonized was only manifested when the church set heart to study and excel in demonology and deliverance ministry.
5. The demons did not manifest until church became an actual spiritual challenge for them through prayer and study
which leads to the following theological presupposition based on the given facts
– how many demons are long present in the ministry of the church via ministers, leaders and members who have opened a door for their activities
– if present but not manifested in other churches, does this mean the church has become NO spiritual challenge for demonic forces in the world (and obviously in the church) today
– why it takes so long for churches to recognize and deal with demonic presence – pls note per the testimony – not somewhere at a remote location, but at the very altar of the said church
– finally, what other damage has these demons done with their long time presence in the church (and its ministry); are other believers influenced during this time; has the effectiveness of the ministry of the church influenced and if so how? Is the ministry even in the Spirit, if demonized people lead / participate in it? What does this say about our leadership and their spiritual ability to discern the spirits and protect the flock. It is with a sad, sad heart that we are determining the presence of demonized folks at all level of church leadership and ministry. This is the reality we are called to minister in the last days. Are we ready and prepared for it? IMO the testimony speaks volumes by itself…
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
You are the one saying I don’t understand.
I do. I understand what he posted.
I do not doubt what he is saying.
I do not see it the way you do.
What I question is your interpretation and application.
What do you consider “church people”?
Did the writer himself say that she had not closed the door?
What was his very own last statement as posted by you?
So
What don’t I understand, Exactly, according to you?
As for as dealing with it,
Let’s try the Bible instead of the theology and missed application of today.
Varnel Watson
You are getting personal again discussing me and not the OP. Where did I say you dont understand? I said – you cannot or do not want to understand. Which one it is I leave to you, but I will not deviate from this very important topic with defining what church is for you, when the author is very clear he talks about his own church, where him and the first lady were closed to the women through which demons manifested. It is all in the story if one does not take the issue with prejudice (which by the way no one has the liberty of doing once demons start manifesting through church people at the altar). Hence my questions remain for you to answer:
– how many demons are long present in the ministry of the church via ministers, leaders and members who have opened a door for their activities
– if present but not manifested in other churches, does this mean the church has become NO spiritual challenge for demonic forces in the world (and obviously in the church) today
– why it takes so long for churches to recognize and deal with demonic presence – pls note per the testimony – not somewhere at a remote location, but at the very altar of the said church
– finally, what other damage has these demons done with their long time presence in the church (and its ministry); are other believers influenced during this time; has the effectiveness of the ministry of the church influenced and if so how? Is the ministry even in the Spirit, if demonized people lead / participate in it? What does this say about our leadership and their spiritual ability to discern the spirits and protect the flock. It is with a sad, sad heart that we are determining the presence of demonized folks at all level of church leadership and ministry. This is the reality we are called to minister in the last days. Are we ready and prepared for it? IMO the testimony speaks volumes by itself…
David Lewayne Porter
Until you define church according to your understanding there is no need to answer any more questions.
The devil can’t cause God’s One and Only True Church to do anything.
James 4:7-8
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
and
Matthew 16:18-19
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
and
Mark 16:15-18
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(How do we do this for others if we can’t keep the situation that you posted from the church from happening to us personally)?
Now so you think I deviated,
It is the same question as you posed “is the ministry even in the spirit if demonized people lead participate in it”.
My issue goes farther than that;
Are they God’s leaders?
satan can’t run God’s work.
But
Since you mentioned the OP
let’s get back to the “ghosts” since the lady manifesting is under none of them.
Child, temptress, and usurper.
Which one is the lady who manifested?
David Lewayne Porter
Because the comments you make are you.
The issue here is your interpretation of the op.
Did the writer say that she had not closed the door?
Did he not say ”
“As I said this lasted for several minutes but in my spirit I did not discern that she were possessed but merely attacked, assaulted or oppressed by the demon.”
?
Yeah let’s discuss the OP and responses you shared, or are we not allowed the same path to travel that you lay down for yourself?
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
Here is where you said I “can’t or don’t want to understand”
I am pasting the entire comment so you don’t think I edited it.
Please read the opening lines and let me know if and how it was misunderstood.
Here’s my point – not sure why you cant or dont want to understand it all this time. We have no reason to doubt the testimonty presented by bro Steenburgh Not only that but we need to make sure we get all the details out and train our churches to respond properly.
Truth is as the Gospel spreads and the Kingdom advances in the last days, resistance from demons – yes demons in the church – will grow as well. They will use every open door they can to disturb the ministry of deliverance as this testimony has shown. With this said:
1. A long time member in good standing with the church is open to demonic activity (influence or possession matters very little to the actual Biblical context)
2. They may be involved in ministry and/or be close to people involved in ministry and able to influence them directly or indirectly
3. The timeline here is important to me personally. Why else is such activity allowed within the church without proper discernment and delivery i.e. casting out demons???
4. Please do note further that the presence of demonized was only manifested when the church set heart to study and excel in demonology and deliverance ministry.
5. The demons did not manifest until church became an actual spiritual challenge for them through prayer and study
which leads to the following theological presupposition based on the given facts
– how many demons are long present in the ministry of the church via ministers, leaders and members who have opened a door for their activities
– if present but not manifested in other churches, does this mean the church has become NO spiritual challenge for demonic forces in the world (and obviously in the church) today
– why it takes so long for churches to recognize and deal with demonic presence – pls note per the testimony – not somewhere at a remote location, but at the very altar of the said church
– finally, what other damage has these demons done with their long time presence in the church (and its ministry); are other believers influenced during this time; has the effectiveness of the ministry of the church influenced and if so how? Is the ministry even in the Spirit, if demonized people lead / participate in it? What does this say about our leadership and their spiritual ability to discern the spirits and protect the flock. It is with a sad, sad heart that we are determining the presence of demonized folks at all level of church leadership and ministry. This is the reality we are called to minister in the last days. Are we ready and prepared for it? IMO the testimony speaks volumes by itself…
Varnel Watson
How is the issue my interpretation when I am quoting a very reliable source? Why are you again not discussing the issue at hand?
Varnel Watson
David After re-reading your posts on this OP again, I see that now you are starting to realize the possibility of demons jumping in church folk who have opened doors for that. And who is perfect and hasnt? Does this make them less church and less believers – it certainly did not make less church and less ministers the Revelation church that had Jezebel spirit among them. But as long as you recognize the possibility of demons jumping in church folk during altar service, my theological work on this topic is done!
David Lewayne Porter
Lol
Why are you asking questions that are not related to the OP?
Revelation – the spirit of Jezebel….
Revelation of John 2:20-22
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Wow, Jesus will destroy those that have part of her,,,,
Are they God’s Church folk?
It appears not.
David Lewayne Porter
Church folk that are not genuinely saved.
Don’t put words in my mouth,
please,
sir.
Demons CAN NOT inhabit blood washed, blood covered, current believers.
What I believe is once they “open the door” they
remove
their blood covering and protection.
That belief and stance of mine will Never change.
You may want to yet again reread my posts.
David Lewayne Porter
Lol
Why are you asking questions that are not related to the OP?
Revelation – the spirit of Jezebel….
Revelation of John 2:20-22
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Wow, Jesus will destroy those that have part of her,,,,
Are they God’s Church folk?
It appears not.
Varnel Watson
Just trying to get you to gain a full picture demonic activities in the church today above what you may have seen in your education and experience as a minster just yet
David Lewayne Porter
Brother
I don’t doubt that devils and demons are active within the building among those who attend that are not blood bought and/or Spirit Filled.
That (devils having influence over in order to “control” God’s purchased possession) will never happen.
You never commented on these;
Matthew 6:22-23
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
– full of darkness. Not just parts being dark. Darkness referred to as light.
2 Corinthians 4:6-7
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Interesting.
(Not being personal, but referring to what you shared in the past), if you are having the issues with church people manifesting g and rushing the podium like you have stated in the past,
You may want to at least pray about and examine what I presented to you.
I may not be the one limited by the “just yet in education and experience”.
Varnel Watson
Not sure what comment is needed, as you fail to show how they related to the OP? Are you interpreting darkness as demons? The text hardly imply such a string comparison IMO
The testimonies I’ve shared before have come form many years of experience, education and training in ministry in large churches worldwide. This OP cites another example from a well seasoned minister from a large church who recently experienced a similar manifestation and promptly dealt with it
I do understand how a pastor of a small family size church around 100 members and limited education could easily ignore the topic never experienced such manifestation in this/her limited circle of influence. But since this is a worldwide group on Pentecostal Theology, perhaps would appropriate to broaden our personal view and experience and deal with the issue at hand as related to Pentecostal Theology, which it is. Deliverance ministry and dealing in demons, especially as increasing in the last days is deeply Biblical – the ending of each Gospel commands it. Revelation is very clear about its last days prevalence – this it cannot be easily ignored or explained away with couple of Bible verses that dont even relate to demonology per se
IF we are indeed seeing demonic manifestation via church members, should we be asking ourselves how close is the church to what John describes in Revelation 2-3? As well as how are we to respond to such activities which are obviously attacking church members today (as they will be in the last days)?
David Lewayne Porter
Done.
Varnel Watson
Lots of ministers are Problem with that is spiritual warfare continues and demons will continue to attack as the dear pastor from OP is testifying for our mutual benefit. But dont take it just from me – take it from AA Allen who was never wrong on last days prophecy
David Lewayne Porter
A.A. Allen was also a “drunk”- given to much alcohol, during his ministry.
One of my personal ministry friends traveled with him and verified the accounts in the book ‘God’s Generals’.
Do you want to trust and follow that example too.
You may want to trust your Bible instead of the other questionable sources.
A.A. Allen left the door open for that nonsense on a personal level by what he was doing.
Varnel Watson
That was never proven and in his testimony he shared that he was taken by some man who poured liquor on him to set him up for the police. I was told this personally by the Rev R.W. Schambach back in 1997 who traveled with Allen’s as his lead worship leader
The author of the book ‘God’s Generals’ Roberts Liardon was caught in homosexuality and later repented. His account of Allen’s incident is allusive at best. Nevertheless, demon deliverance from church people in church meetings was strong with Allen and many others
But yes, you can chose to go down this or that rabbit hole to divert from OP All and while females demons be operating in your church under your nose. If not practicing demon deliverance, we are fulfilling the Great Omission instead of the Great Comission
David Lewayne Porter
Brother,
There is the issue.
You don’t listen.
I have verification that it is fact.
My source traveled with Allen and Schambach.
Unlike Schambach who was interested in protecting his ministry reputation due to riding Allen’s coattails, my source is concerned about keeping other ministers from falling prey to the same deceiving spirits.
Maybe you should use the sources that God has brought into your life.
I have connections to a man whose family was brought into pentecost in Dunn, NC personally by Caswell. That family, my personal friends, founded the Dunn Church of God that I now pastor.
I have a ministerial associate that traveled with A. A. Allen.
And you are interested in teaching me and questioning my knowledge, education, and experience.
Please continue.
I am apt, and thus teachable.
Every situation is a lesson in what to do or what not to do.
David Lewayne Porter
By the way
Yes, I knew that the author of ‘God’s Generals’ was a homosexual.
Varnel Watson
How about you start commenting the OP now?
David Lewayne Porter
I commented on the original post.
But since you can’t go find it,
Here you go..
I got on your link from another device.
To answer your question,
Experience with these;
Yes,
I shut them down and move on!
1) usurper – I remove them from all authority positions and forget them. When people ask why, I make sure that person informs them of the truth.
2) temptress – that is ‘an’ issue “within” the minister.
You are tempted as you are drawn away of your own lust.
The temptress has no control unless the minister wants her to have it – regardless of what she is wearing.
I allow no room for it. I am always accompanied by someone that is there to deter such things from going on. I have refused counseling people because they wanted it to be only me in the room with them.
3) the child, I treat them as the child they want to be.
I put them in time out and let them know why.
They get to come out when they grew up and can wear big “child” pants.
Varnel Watson
David Lewayne Porter I read that and responded to you above. Pls read pls !
David Lewayne Porter
You Troy Day
Have YET
to define whether you consider “church folk” as blood bought believers or attendees
As you pointed out from Revelation 2 & 3,
Let’s go through them and you tell me if you consider these blood bought children of God and actual parts of the Body that God calls His Church;
1) Revelation of John 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
2) Revelation of John 2:14-16
But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
3) Revelation of John 2:20-23
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
A) Jesus contrasts that group with these;
Revelation of John 2:24-28
But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.
4) Revelation of John 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
A) Jesus contrasts that group with these;
Revelation of John 3:4-5
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
5) Revelation of John 3:15-19
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
A) Jesus says this to them;
Revelation of John 3:20-21
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
I think that covers it,,,
But
Here’s a though
if you have to open the door to let Christ Jesus in
How, how
do those spirits that are manifesting in your church folk get in?
Matthew 6:22-23
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
These verses put it a little clearer
Luke 11:34-36
The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.
I’ll leave you with your thoughts, large churches, your great education and wide experience.
I hope it works for those that you are ministering to.
Varnel Watson
Do you think the “church folk” the California pastor shared with us were saved or not? You are talking almost like a Calvinist – that one is saved once and for ever and no demon can ever enter them. Can they backslide (while attending church among other church folk) and allow demons to enter his/her heart? Like William DeArteaga mentioned earlier – were Ananias and Sapphira not among the saved church folk in Acts? Yet Satan filled them both… ACTS 5:3 Then Peter said, Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart?
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
I FULLY believe that they can backslide.
THAT is EXACTLY my point.
IF they were manifesting
then at that moment and point NO,
let me be clear, no NO they were not at that moment saved.
You mentioned Ananias and Sapphire,
What did Peter say?
Acts 5:3
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
So if satan FILLED their heart,
Where was the room for Jesus and Holy Ghost?
You are beginning to get there.
Are they attendees or are they current actual believers?
If they are backsliden can they be God’s Church Folk?
You think I am speaking almost like a calvinist (and who gets personal?) because your education, and experience does not give you the ability to understand. I wonder why.
You speak as a calvinist because you seem as if once they are saved they are always saved so they are osas Christians then manifesting.
That can not be the case.
Ty for getting personal though.
Varnel Watson
As long as you see the work of evil spirits in your church and you are dealing with them my work here is done. Lot’s of people attending church are backsliden and oppressed and need deliverance ministry. Kicking them out of church and not dealing with their demonization as congregation is not an option
David Lewayne Porter
I did not say to kick them out of the church Troy Day.
I love when you ran down a bunny trail of your on making, as you normally do – take bunny trails.
You have always and consistently tried to come across as if the believing, saved, Christian church members are the ones possessed, manifesting, and your words (demonized).
You have never denied or refuted that.
The fact that the situation as you presented it can’t happen has always been and always will be my stance.
Varnel Watson
David Lewayne Porter You said
– I shut them down and move on!…
– I remove them from all authority positions and forget them.
— I allow no room for it.
– I treat them as the child they want to be.
– I put them in time out and let them know why.”
sounds like you really show lots of love there 🙂 At least every human way possible and everything else but deliverance from their demonization.
Now I do appreciate you coming clean and saying that any of your Spirit filled church members can backslide and be demonized. This I believe. I just dont think the issue should be ignored in church shut up, removed, allow no room or put in time out, .This is where we dont see eye to eye. I think demonized ppl in church should be dealt with through deliverance ministry reestablished and mentored in the faith like Jesus did.
David Lewayne Porter
That is the spirits and those influenced by the spirits.
These spirits can and most often do
OPPRESS and don’t POSSESS.
You first teach them to submit unto God, and then resist the devil making him flee.
But I don’t guess your experience, education, or large churches have arrived there yet.
After all as churches grow they just get more people with more of the same issues.
You should have plenty of hands on with this.
Or
Is it just that all of your people need deliverence because they are possessed?
I had no need to come clean.
Your folks are the ones charging you while in your pulpit from your pews.
Too bad you don’t have and use discerning of spirits so you know when to do which one and how.
I could teach you since it appears my church and I do.
It starts with getting out of your books and classes and getting in your Bible, with prayer and the leading of Holy Spirit.
Happy demon hunting.
Anonymous
this is something worth investigating once again William DeArteaga Levi Goff Neil Steven Lawrence Isara Mo though Link Hudson had said something about no-jezebel which I cannot remember but there was a video about all this
Anonymous
Troy Day I wrote that there os no ‘Jezebel spirit’ mentioned in the Bible. There is a reference to ‘that woman Jezebel’ in the Book of Revelation who taught people to commit fornication and to eat meat offered to idols. Does anyone think this passage is about a spirit?
Anonymous
Link Hudson Your question is rhetorical, self-explanatory and you-know-the-answer type of thing, but you can still ask it in the group
Anonymous
The concept of “spirit“ can be threefold:
1. a spirit being
2. an attitude of a person
3. An attitude of a person caused by an evil spirit.
Defining terms when talking about some thing that causes a rebellion in the church might be helpful.
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence TRUE Link Hudson they have
demonic spirits
human spirits
GODs 7 spirits
spirits of the dead etc
William DeArteaga is examining all in his new book
Anonymous
Troy Day Some people call a spiritual condition or attitude a ‘spirit.’
I don’t think Charismatics all mean the same thing when they say ‘religious spirit.’
If someone’s own spirit is religious and a Charismatic could succeed in casting the ‘religious spirit’ out of him, would that kill him?
Anonymous
Link Hudson well I’ve read your similar question before but it does not seek Biblical foundation – the word demonizomai entertains the idea of an extra/separate spirit alongside the human spirit So your question is redundant @ best – if the evil spirit leaves, the person’s spirit remains
Anonymous
Troy Day The Bible doesn’t say there is a ‘religious spirit’ and Charismatics are split as to whether it means a real demon or some kind of attitude or condition.
Anonymous
Link Hudson I didnt say the BIBLE says it is a ‘religious spirit’ This is your own terminology. I’ve never used ‘religious spirit’ for anything
Anonymous
Troy Day
If a human being can have ALLthese spirits and still be sober minded it is quite amazing.Or is this the confirmation of the wonderfully and fearfully made scripture?
Anonymous
I hope that the spirit of Jezabel trying to deceive our Brothers and Sisters-in-Christ.
Anonymous
check your internet Isara Mo its all there https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/3-female-ghosts-that-haunt-the-church/ Link Hudson I am not really seeing a Biblical argument in what you said except argurment from sielence
The Bible doesn’t say there is a ‘religious spirit’
The Bible doesn’t say there it is NOT a ‘religious spirit’
and by the way I dont remember claiming or even using the term ‘religious spirit’ – are you saying Jezebel is not in the BIBLE and it is not a spirit or just saying what the BIble doesnt say?
Anonymous
Troy Day If someone claims there is a ‘Jezebel spirit’ either they base it on revelation, or pop theology, or I would imagine some wonky exegesis… at least if by spirit they mean a sentient spiritual entity. You can ask them what that is based on. If they say the Spirit revealed it, just it like you would a prophecy. If they say that the Bible teaches that there is a ‘Jezebel spirit’…. no it does not.
I remember this poster on a Charisma forum maybe 20 years ago who’d read books about the Jezebel spirit. She said the Jezebel spirit might be more powerful than Satan. I think she meant some kind of principality.
There seem to be a lot of charismatic movement teachings that come from a preacher who preaches it, who got it from another preacher, who got it from another preacher. Whose the first preacher who got the extra-Biblical revelation of Jezebel being a spirit.
Of course, some Charismatics use ‘spirit’ to mean a spiritual condition or attitude sometimes. I’m not saying God couldn’t show someone something about someone else having a spirit like Jezebel at work in them. I just don’t want to accept whatever pop Charismatic teaching that’s going around into my belief system if it isn’t based on scripture..
Anonymous
Link Hudson If someone claims there is a ‘Jezebel spirit’ you should address them; I know for once that I did not use the term ‘religious spirit’ which you clearly implied I said in your comment – neither I was pro or con the whole things. Just reading the article together. You now seem to misinterpret not what I said but also what I dont say – WhatS going on?