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BEER, WINE, AND LIQUORS: TOTAL ABSTINENCE
Historically, the Church of God has been committed to sanctification and holiness (uncompromised devotion to God) and has maintained that the Bible strongly prohibits the use of beer, wine, and liquors. An early doctrinal statement of the church’s teaching urges “total abstinence from all liquor and strong drink” (Church of God Evangel, August 15, 1910, p. 3).
Emphasizing this teaching, the Church of God Practical Commitments reminds us of our liberty in Christ (John 8:32, 36; Rom. 6:14; 8:2 NKJV) and counseled us not to put ourselves under bondage (Gal. 5:1). “Therefore, a Christian must totally abstain from all alcoholic beverages and other habit-forming and mood-altering chemical substances . . .” (Minutes of the 75th International General Assembly, 2014, p. 28). Our main focus is on what the Bible teaches about the total abstinence from all social, recreational, or other uses of alcohol.
The Bible and Alcoholic Beverages
Both the Old and the New Testaments employ a number of words for alcoholic drink. The major Hebrew words are yayin (wine) and shekar (strong drink), and the Greek is oinos (wine). Leading Hebrew and Greek lexicons indicate that these Biblical terms refer to drinks that have some alcoholic content. Even sweet or new wine (Hebrew: asis and Greek: gleukos), which was probably still fermenting and thought by many to be mere grape juice, can be intoxicating (Isa. 49:26).
Alcohol in the Old Testament
The first example of the evil effects of alcohol in the Old Testament is the story of Noah (Gen. 9:20-27). In this story, drunkenness led to shame and to family tragedy and a curse placed upon Canaan. Wine was also a factor in incest that led to the pregnancies of Lot’s daughters (Gen. 19:31-38). We also see cautions regarding alcohol in Solomon’s writings; for example, “Wine is a mockery, strong drink is raging; and whoever is deceived thereby is not wise” (Prov. 20:1; cf. 23:29-35).
In summary, the Old Testament opposes the use of alcohol for these major reasons:
- Strong drink distorts the perception of reality and impairs performance (Isa. 29:7).
- Strong drink interferes with sound judgment and the capacity to make responsible decisions (Lev. 10:9-11).
- Strong drink weakens spiritual and moral sensitivities (Isa. 5:11-12).
- Strong drink can lead to addiction (Prov. 23:35).
These reasons are sufficient grounds for Christians to abstain and not even consider drinking.
Alcohol in the New Testament
The New Testament also speaks about the grave effects of alcoholic beverage (oinos, wine).
Many references to wine (except its medicinal use in 1 Tim. 5:23 and a few others) are strong warnings or prohibitions against its use. A powerful indictment against wine is in Eph. 5:18, where the use of alcoholic drink has the potential of causing wild and disorderly conduct. The warning is that being under the control of strong drink is totally incompatible with being filled with the Holy Spirit.
In his inspired wisdom, Paul establishes spiritual requirements for those holding office in the Church of our Lord. He instructs the church leaders, whether pastors (1 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 1:7) or deacons (1 Tim. 3:8,) regarding the consumption of alcohol to be “blameless,” strongly implying total abstinence is the Biblical standard.
Therefore, such passages should not be interpreted to allow church leaders to drink alcoholic beverages in moderation. In Paul’s day, wine was one of the safest liquids to drink. At that time, people often suffered from parasites and other health ailments because of drinking contaminated water. Wine was a mixed drink with several parts of it water, and therefore different from the wine consumed today. The Greeks, the Jews, and the early church fathers left no doubt that “wine” meant wine mixed with water (Robert H. Stein, “Wine Drinking in New Testament Times,” Christianity Today, June 20, 1975, pp. 9-11). No longer is drinking water a health problem in much of the world, especially in developed countries. In America today, there is no need for alcoholic beverages to be used for health purposes. In ancient times, the drinking of wine was a safety measure.
Another argument against moderate drinking and for total abstinence is that the New Testament calls Christians to sobriety (napho 1 Thess. 5:1-11; 2 Tim. 4:5; 1 Pet. 1:13; 4:7) and
temperance (naphalios, 1 Tim. 3:2, 11; Titus 2:2). (Otto Baurfeind, napho, naphalios, enapho, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. 4, trans. by Geoffrey Bromiley). Though these passages do not refer only to alcohol as causing impairment, they certainly include it.
Paul’s advice does not justify social or recreational drinking. Frequently, the Bible calls believers to a lifestyle contrary to the ungodly and undisciplined culture (cf. Luke 21:34-36; Rom. 13:12- 14; Gal. 5:19-24). We should remember that Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach (1 Tim. 5:23). This advice Paul gave could well indicate that Timothy practiced total abstinence. If Timothy drank wine, even in moderation, there would have been no need for Paul to instruct him to use some wine for health purposes. It should not be forgotten that in Bible times, medicines were very rare and few medical aids were available to treat human ailments. Since wine was readily available, it is understandable why it was used for medicine. In the first century, the alcohol content of wine was typically about two to six percent. Today, alcoholic drinks are far more potent (A.R.S. Kennedy, “Wine and Strong Drink,” Dictionary of the Bible). Even so, one could overdo the drinking of diluted wine, as some of the Biblical characters likely did (Gen. 9:20-27; 19:30-38).
Jesus and Strong Drink
On one occasion Jesus contrasted Himself with John the Baptist. He said, “For John came neither eating nor drinking and they (the Pharisees) say, ‘He has a demon!’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard’” (Matt.
11:18-19). He did not offer an apology for His behavior. He had done nothing for which to apologize.
When one hears the use of alcohol discussed, reference is usually made to Jesus’ miracle of turning water into wine at Cana (John 2:1-11). Does this miracle indicate that Jesus approved of the consumption of alcohol? Before we reach a conclusion, we need to look at the features of this event from several angles:
- We cannot be certain that what Jesus created had alcoholic content. The headmaster of the feast was impressed with what Jesus produced, declaring, “Every man serves the good wine first and when men have drunk freely, then that which is poorer; but you have kept the good wine until now” (2:10). His comment was probably on how good the wine tasted, that is, its quality, not on the alcoholic content.
- The primary purpose of the miracle was to manifest Jesus’ glory (v. 11). To say that the Son of God showed forth his glory by producing gallons of intoxicating wine seems to gofar off base. The miracle manifested Christ’s sovereignty over the natural world and his power to transform the lives of people.
- The focus of the miracle was on its spiritual significance, not on the wine. John described it as a “sign” which drew attention to the saving power of Jesus (2:11) and indicated that there was much more to the miracle than to provide the wedding guests with something to drink.
- John presents the wedding as a sober event in tone, not telling what happened after Jesus did the miracle. The account closes without any hint that the wedding feast turned into a drunken spree.
- There is no indication that Jesus drank any of the wine produced by the miracle. Jesus knew well the teaching of the Old Testament on strong drink (Prov. 23:29-35; Hab. 2:15; Amos 2:8, 12; 4:1).
There is no proof that Jesus ever drank alcohol. Sound interpretation of Holy Scripture avoids promoting a practice based on silence.
Making the Decision for Total Abstinence
Because of the effects of drinking alcoholic beverages, the Bible is against drinking alcohol (Prov. 23:29-35). In fact, in the New Testament there appears to be a clear movement toward the rejection of the use of alcohol and for total abstinence. Such a movement is known as the “Biblical process.” For example, in the New Testament we can see the significance of the Biblical process in reference to the actual drink used in the Lord’s Supper. When Jesus instituted the Supper, he did not use the term “wine” (oinos). Rather he spoke of “the fruit of the vine” (Matt. 26:26-27; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:17-20). Furthermore, Paul speaks of “the cup” when referring to the beverage used in the Supper (1 Cor. 10:16, 21; 11:23-28). The point is, it is very significant that there is no reference in Scripture to wine in connection with the Lord’s Supper. Does this suggest something about Jesus’ and Paul’s attitude regarding strong drink?
In light of the teaching of the Bible, here are four compelling Biblical principles for Christians to abstain from all alcoholic beverages.
- The principle of Christ’s lordship (1 Cor. 6:20). Christians are free, but not free to do whatever they want. They belong to Christ and should put forth every effort to honor His lordship in their
- The principle of edifying others. Paul’s advice is “Let all things be done for edification” (1 Cor. 14:26; cf. 10:23). Christians are to avoid any behavior (including drinking) that influences others to engage in activities that may be to their spiritual and physical detriment.
- The principle of the proper treatment of the body. The Christian’s body is the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19-20). Whatever Christians do against their bodies affects the residence of the Holy Spirit and God’s creative masterpiece. The body is sacred and is destined for resurrection (1 Cor. 6:13ff.).
Some argue that there are health benefits in wine. Researchers from Harvard Medical School report that wine has anti-aging proprieties; but rather than being from the alcoholic content, the anti-aging proprieties are the resveratrol in the red skins of the grapes (www.google.com/health+benefits+of=wine+). Moreover, medical authorities remind us that alcohol has significant adverse health effects.
- The principle of doing all to God’s glory. Paul says,“Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Cor.10:31). Whatever activity a Christian engages in—all must be to God’s glory. There is no glory for God in the pursuit of pleasure that has no regard for the detrimental influence it has on others and oneself. It is inconceivable that God approves of the use of alcohol. Living for the glory of God includes the practice of total
Conclusion
Even if the Bible were to have said nothing against drinking, the tremendous toll the use of strong drink has taken on people is a clear indication that abstinence is the only risk-free practice. Christians have a moral responsibility to be examples in lifestyle and to consider how they can best serve and edify others. For us as believers, the most important argument against drinking should be, “What does the Lord say?” According to the Bible, God will hold all Christians responsible for their behavior (Rom. 14:12; 1 Cor. 3:12-13; 2 Cor. 5:10). Therefore, what really counts is what God thinks about our behavior.
We, the credentialed ministers and lay members of the Church of God, must follow Biblical teaching and not consume beer, wine, liquor, or any alcoholic beverage. It is imperative that we practice total abstinence for the sake of others, for the sake of the Gospel, for the sake of ourselves, and for the sake of God’s glory. For these reasons and others, the Church of God came together in the 1948 General Assembly and, guided by the sole authority the Bible, that body of believers adopted the Statements of Faith, reaffirming its earlier stand on the doctrine of total abstinence from alcohol. The Church of God stands against the use of all alcoholic beverages with the prayer that the behavior of God’s people will aid the Church of God in doing its part in finishing the Great Commission.
Additional Readings
Arrington, French L. “The Dangers of Strong Drink,” Issues in Contemporary Pentecostalism,
Cleveland: Pathway Press, 2012.
Fingarette, Herbert. Heavy Drinking: the Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease, Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1988.
Jaeggli, Randy. Christians and Alcohol: A Scripture Case for Abstinence, Greenville, South Carolina: Bob Jones University Press, 2014.
Shaw, Mark. The Heart of Addiction: A Biblical Perspective, ISBN-13: 9781885904683,
www.amazon.com, 2008
Varnel Watson
Emanuel Rodriguez Without further adieu I give you DR. FRENCH L. ARRINGTON Pass him and you are more than welcome to debate me on the topic
Jeanette Elizondo
I agree with your view on total abstinence for Christians !!!
Eric Phillips
Troy I was born and raised COG, my grandfather was a pioneer Pastor in the COG….they were founded by a Methodist and a Baptist….in the Methodist tradition they have always been abstainers this is not news.
As always they refer to New Wine or watered down wine which has no actual historical basis, even if it did exist it still had alcohol content at least much like modern day beer which in most cases is only 4% to 5% alcohol which still means early christians were not abstainers.
I am not pro alcohol, I am in no way encouraging anyone to do something in violation of their conscience.
I am saying please don’t insult my intelligence when all of history says different than a modern man made doctrine that is distinctly regional in its application (US and even more so a Southern US thing). God is a worldwide God and holiness is not a regional standard.
The problem with any thing that the COG or anyone else puts out on alcohol is that they always and only give extreme examples of drunken out of control behavior. We all agree the Bible is clear on drunkeness and self control….no one is debating that.
But to infer somehow that a husband and wife who share a glass of wine with dinner is somehow unholy or sinful is simply ludacris and extreme in the other direction.
The bible teaches moderation and self control in any and all things that are allowed under Christian liberty and not strictly prohibited by scripture.
Drunkeness is wrong becuase of the loss of self control which leads to all of the other abusive sins associated with alcohol abuse.
Melvin Shomo
I personally do not drink but I do agree with you..
My thought are that we as Christians need to be a shining example unto others.
If we like to keep a case of beer on hand and have a fellow Christian come by that isn’t very learned in scripture, then it is better to keep the beer out of view.
The Bible has said not to give place to the devil, and this brother who is week in the faith could take it the wrong way..
Varnel Watson
Eric Phillips Why would you feel that this article by DR. FRENCH L. ARRINGTON insults your intelligence ? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-french-l-arrington-the-bible-and-alcoholic-beverages-beer-wine-liquors-and-total-abstinence/
Eric Phillips
He states he can’t say whether or not the water Jesus turned to wine had alcohol content or not….but goes onto hypothesize that it did not while later admitting it could.
He admits that new testament believers drank what he calls water downed wine.
He explains they drank wine as an alternative to the dirty contaminated water of that day and that he estimates based on some other guys theory an alcohol content of 4% to 6% or roughly the same as a modern beer.
The insulting part is he tells us they drink wine to avoid contaminated water, only to tell us they take this same filthy water and pour it into good wine 4 parts pond scum to 1 part wine.
To believe that I would either have to believe they were some pretty stupid people to contaminate their alternative drink or I would have to be stupid to believe that they were that dumb.
And lastly show me any other thing that was not a sin in the NT, something that was permissable, that is now a sin like alcohol is made out to be? And what was the date when it changed from being ok, to your going to hell now for drinking it?
Vickie Embry
Ex causes
Varnel Watson
Melvin Harter What does your organization’s Practical Commitments require from ministers and members per Dr. Arrington’s exegesis?
Randal W Deese
It is an historical fact that the Christian church has used alcohol in the Lord supper until the abstinence movement. Therefore, I would suggest that it is more holy to use alcoholic wine then grape juice, both biblically and his historically. The introduction of novel Doctrines does not make them more correct nor more holy
Melvin Harter
Let me first say that I find it is a total disgrace to the CoG (Cleveland, TN) for such a subject to be mentioned, let alone for Dr French Arrington to have to write such a statement. I also noticed that even though this particular writing was in recent days (February 2018), I did notice that an earlier writing by Dr Arrington was posted in 2012, which suggests to me that this subject must have been discussed even then. I studied Greek 2 under Dr Arrington at Lee College (University) in the early 1970s. Dr Arrington is an outstanding Professor and his writings can be totally relied upon.
Now why is alcoholism a discussion issue today? Have you ever thought about that? I contend there are two definite factors that bring about this type of a discussion: (1) the international arm of the CoG; and, (2) the neglect of the Doctrine of Sanctification being taught at Lee College (University).
When the CoG expanded primarily into Europe, having wine with their dinner was a common factor with the European Christians. Instead of the CoG contending against such, they begin to make the argument of acceptance and were influenced by our European brethren.
And secondly, at Lee College, designated classes were conducted on subjects such as (1) Soteriology (Doctrine/Study of Salvation) and (2) Pneumatology (Doctrine/Study of the Holy Spirit). However, there was not even one course offered on the Doctrine of Sanctification. I recall the Doctrine of Sanctification was only brought up in Dr John Sims’ class, Dr Hollis Gause’s Systematic Theology class and in Dr French Arrington’s Greek 2 classes, particularly as it related to our Exegetical Studies. So in essence, the Doctrine of Sanctification was never fully emphasized in our studies at Lee College. I believe it is due to these two factors as to why there is discussion for acceptance of social drink in the CoG.
I would encourage every CoG minister & layman to listen to a sermon entitled SOCIAL SINS by CoG minister Dr Ray H Hughes, Sr, a video that I posted on YouTube.
Eric Phillips
Influenced by our European brethren who founded most of Christianity’s modern churches and contended for Christ and the church before America even existed! But yes your right we need to explain a thing or two to them about church history (there history)! I’m reminded of that old hymn “The Church of God is right hallelujah praise the lamb!” Lol
Eric Phillips
Dr. Hughes was a great man, not infallible however. I went to Lee myself with some of his grandkids…pretty sure the amount of trouble they stayed in…. they never listened to Papaw lol
Melvin Harter
But Bro Eric Phillips, America was basically founded by those who sought religious freedom from the religious restraints in Europe.
Eric Phillips
Yes and Melvin Harter I guess your gonna tell me the pilgrims who came here drank fresh water on the trip over across the Atlantic? This is my point to agree with you I would have to suspend logic.
Melvin Harter
Eric Phillips then why did you preach it?
Eric Phillips
Because it’s what I was indoctrinated with my entire life and I never questioned it until I started studying on my own.
Melvin Harter
I think you have lost your way my brother. You need to return to the old paths again.
Vickie Embry
Alcoholic has ruin many family killed people in my eyes it.s evil
Anonymous
Obesity has killed more people than Alcohol. Why are we not preaching Gluttony. This is Legalism at its finest
Melvin Harter
Vickie Embry So true my sister. It has destroyed many families & lives and sent millions of souls to a devil’s hell. So many in the Church have been deceived into thinking social drinking is okay. We need voices to cry out against such a damnable Doctrine that is being taught in many churches by worldly ministers. God bless you Sister Embry.
Vickie Embry
Yes too many feel good church I know one church they had a super bowl party an serve beer what a shame I feel sorry for the preacher needs to teach the Bible
Melvin Harter
Vickie Embry GOD HELP US.
Vickie Embry
I’m glad in old fashion
Ann
So you say that the Bible expressively speaks against alchol of any kind is that correct? Can you show scriptures to back that up? Does the bible not speak against drinking to the point of drunkeness? If you are not drinking alchol there is no need to worry about drunkeness is there?. The point is most people do not stop with one drink they over inbibe. Romans 13:13 in the ESV puts it like this. Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. It puts it right up thre with adultry and sexual imorality does it not? All these are sin and should not be partaken of. However no where does it say the drinks spoken about were not alcholic quite the contrary, It says don’t over indulge. some things in the bible are spoken about specifically as sin like adultry, and pre marital sex etc. I do not social drink do you? When Jesus turned the water into wine was the translation for the word there for wine the same word used for alcholic drinks? Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. This is used often to say drinking is a sin, again it is not the 1 drink it is the drunkeness that is the sin. Again befoe God can you say you have never had an alcholic drink?
Varnel Watson
I liked Dr.Arrington’s statement. Guess the question was more of how your organizations practical commitments propose to deal with ministers or members who drink (socially) Ed Brewer
Randal W Deese
I would suggest that the biblical way of dealing with presbyters who socially drink is to make sure that they are not partying and not getting drunk.
Randal W Deese
I should change that to exhort as opposed to make sure… I’m not there daddy
Melvin Harter
How does an organization deal with social drinkers who are in their ministry or lay members of their church? That’s a simple answer. You EXCOMMUNICATE them.
Randal W Deese
Oops … There goes Jesus
Melvin Harter
Randal W Deese Not true my brother
Randal W Deese
Melvin Harter We will have to disagree on this one brother
Melvin Harter
Disagree or not my brother, but show one scripture where Jesus sponsored a party where liquor was promoted. There are none. Regarding the Marriage in Cana, there is a distinct difference between NEW WINE & OLD WINE. And I do not believe the scripture will contend that Jesus turned water into OLD WINE.
Randal W Deese
Melvin Harter
Next you’ll try to convince me that they didn’t get drunk on communion wine in first Corinthians chapter 11
Randal W Deese
That alone shows that communion wine was alcoholic….
And another is drunken – The word used here (μεθύω methuō) means properly to become inebriated, or intoxicated; and there is no reason for understanding it here in any other sense.
Melvin Harter
No, Brother Randal W Deese, you failed to read verses 18-19. There were divisions and heresies in the Corinthian Church. Have you ever considered that drunkenness in vs 21 may be a heresy?
Randal W Deese
Melvin Harter
They were drunk because they drank too much communion wine. Read the Greek text
Melvin Harter
There were divisions & heresies. Don’t you think it may have been somewhat connected to Communion?
Randal W Deese
Melvin Harter
“haireseis” a choosing, taking sides, holding views of one party, heresy (our word). “Heresy is theoretical schism, schism practical heresy.” Cf. Tit 3:10; 2Pe 2:1. In Paul only here and Gal 5:20.
Link Hudson
That is in direct violation to Romans 14. You do not judge them. If they aren’t given to much wine and they don’t get drunk, you should not condemn them.
Pentecostals should abstain from dumping their legalism on unbelievers and new converts,too.
Link Hudson
Melvin Harter If there were a drinking heresie, then it would have been a faction dedicated to drinking or that separated from others based on drinking. I don’t see any evidence of that happening in I Corinthians.
But could a church that excommunicates believers who drink like Jesus drank (non-sinfully), as you would recommend, be creating a heresy by their divisive behavior?
Varnel Watson
SOCIAL SINS by CoG minister Dr Ray H Hughes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd7kC7QXFDs
Melvin Harter
Simply put, everyone who drinks alcoholic beverages and liquor GO TO HELL.
Eric Phillips
Lol cause I’m Melvin Harter and I said so!
I thought God was the judge and the only one who could pronounce judgement and eternal damnation?
You having a fit if rage is not really a way to convince others to look seriously at you arguement when come off like the opening act at a WWE event.
Melvin Harter
Eric Phillips not because I said so, but because God says so. Isaiah says for us to Lift up our voice like a trumpet. Show my people their sin.
Eric Phillips
But he did not call you to call things sinful, wine in moderation, that he himself did not deem sinful….so yes it is you saying so….you cannot show one verse that backs up what you are saying above, not one that says anyone who has a drink goes to hell.
But I can show you what the Bible says about adding to or taking away from his word…to not even add or delete a dot on an I…your adding entire thoughts…dangerous ground.
Lastly “showing them there sin” and passing judgement as to decide who will condemend to hell are two different things.
Judgement is the Lords.
Acts 10:13-15
Link Hudson
Where do preachers go who make up doctrine contrary to the Bible and condemn other believers to Hell?
Jesus drank. You can’t be holier to Jesus by holding to a man-made standard that He did not adhere to.
Your post typifies what is wrong with some streams of Pentecostalism and Holiness type teaching, the self-righteous, holier-than-thou man-made legalism aspect of it. Let’s get back to the Bible. Bible over tradition, even Pentecostal tradition.
That kind of preaching ‘aint holy. God has the right to condemn men to Hell. Preachers don’t have the right to condemn men to Hell for not living up to their man-made standards.
Eric Phillips
Melvin Harter…when the disciples came out of the Upper Room….tell me why they needed to explain that they were “not drunk with wine as you suppose”?
If they were such notorious teetotalers explain the need for that exclaimation?
Melvin Harter
Bro Eric Phillips, why would you require an explanation when the scriptures are plainly stated? It was not the believers who were stating the 120 were drunk. Peter did not quote from the book of Joel to the saints. Just because the saints were baptized in the Holy Ghost and gave an appearance of being drunk on alcohol did not and even today does not mean they actually consumed alcohol. So how do you state they were teetotalers? Do not confuse the 120 on the Day of Pentecost with the total CoG at Corinth.
Eric Phillips
Acts 2:1 -16 …. I am not confused and you did not answer my question …. if they never drank why caveat the statement with seeing it is only the 3rd hour of the morning or 9 AM. If they never drank why add that? Time of day would not matter for someone who abstained 100% correct?
Eric Phillips
Not only not drunk with wine as you suppose….but at this hour of the morning…infering you may find them festive later in the evening and not think it strange.
Melvin Harter
Wine is a mocker.
Varnel Watson
It’s funny to me how someone can take a Scripture that clearly says they do not drink, and twist it to they may drink
Eric Phillips
Good greif I did not twist anything, and as usual you have not answered any of my questions.
Funny to me for a guy who likes to act like he has all the answers.
I simply ask again why announce your not drunk with wine this early in the morning?
Varnel Watson
Eric I was actually responding to bro Melvin but you are welcome to jump in with any comment you may offer on the original Greek of this verse. On another note, you seem to be taking this discussion against drinking way too personal. You probably have a personal reasons to do that and are welcome to share them. But please keep in mind we are all here to discuss theology not personal issues Thanks
Eric Phillips
Lol Troy you make me laugh, thank you for the humor.
Randal W Deese
Can one imagine that God would encourage an alcoholic beverage. Oh my! The ignored tithe passage:
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; [your tithe. See vs 1] or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or FOR WINE, or FOR STRONG DRINK, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Deu 14:27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
Melvin Harter
Every alcoholic started with his first drink.
Randal W Deese
Every adulterer started with his verse sexual experience. Ok. So!
Melvin Harter
There is a vast difference between the two.
Melvin Harter
We are commanded to “shun the very appearance of evil.”
Randal W Deese
From a Biblical perspective, alcohol isn’t evil. God even encouraged it in the verses above – from His Holy, Pure and Righteous Law.
Melvin Harter
Wrong again my brother.
Randal W Deese
Melvin Harter
Explain the verses I quoted above. Your controversy is not with me, but Scripture.
Link Hudson
Wine is not evil. God gave oil to make men’s face shine, and wine to make men’s heart merry, like the Bible says.
Drinking wine in moderation is evil to men who have been pre-programmed to judge others by legalism in their church tradition.
Melvin Harter
Let not your good be evil spoken of.
Eric Phillips
That assumes wine is evil, which contradicts scripture.
Melvin Harter
Eric Phillips not true
Melvin Harter
The drinking of alcohol will damn your soul to hell.
Randal W Deese
Why do you keep damning Jesus to hell? John the Baptist did not drink wine (oinos in the Greek) or any other form of alcohol because it was prophesied that he wouldn’t (Luke 1:15). However, Jesus Christ did drink oinos (wine) (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:34). Jesus did not preach against the use of wine; instead he did like most other Jews of his day.
Melvin Harter
Randal W Deese , did you read Dr Arrington’s Report? Wine was not the same as it is today. And why would Jesus promote the drinking of wine when in doing so, sends you to HELL
Eric Phillips
You can in no way prove that and his report is not scripture.
He is a fine man, but his article stretches to prove his point not to actually give an accurate historical account.
Melvin Harter sure wants somebody to go to hell over this subject
Melvin Harter
I CORINTHIANS 6:10, “Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor DRUNKARDS, nor revilers, nor extortioners, SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.” If one does not inherit the kingdom of God, then the conclusion is, he is in HELL.
Eric Phillips
Melvin Harter….yep Drunkards…not drinkers…you know like….gluttons…. not eaters!
We ALL AGREE DRUNKENESS IS SINFUL BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SO!
WE DON’T AGREE THAT A DRINK OR DRINKING IN MODERATION LIKE IS REPLETE THROUGHOUT BOTH THE OT AND NT IS SINFUL….BECAUSE IT IS NOT DRUNKENESS AND THE BIBLE DOES NOT CALL IT SIN.
Good grief you need to spend a little time studying etymology…words and there meanings matter.
Melvin Harter
If you never take the first drink of alcohol, you will have nothing to worry about. But if you take the first drink, it will lead you deeper into sin. There are many scriptures to address total abstinence. Only those unsanctified souls promote social drink. A saint of God will have no desire to even take one drink of liquor.
Randal W Deese
Melvin Harter Baloney.
Melvin Harter
Randal W Deese , Say what you want. But what if you are wrong?
Randal W Deese
Melvin Harter
What if you are guilty adding to the Word of God? Serious business my friend…
Melvin Harter
Randal W Deese you must not have been a Church of God minister.
Link Hudson
Melvin Harter Having a glass of wine and being a drunkard aren’t the same thing.
Do you damn people for having some wine mixed with water?
Link Hudson
Melvin Harter
In the context of this passage, what did the Son of Man drink?
Luke 7
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
John did not drink WINE. The Son of Man came drinking. The Son of man drank ______?
Do you ever encounter a Baptist who believes that if someone repeats a prayer after a preacher, he can go out and fornicate and kill people and he’s guaranteed a place in heaven? Do you ever think how can someone be so steeped in tradition as to hold to it even when you show him verses to the contrary?
Have you ever stopped to think what your beliefs about alcohol, even the extreme of damning people for drinking a little of it, are based on? It isn’t the Bible.
Vickie Embry
I agree
Link Hudson
If someone wants to abstain, that’s fine. I’d say there are two problems with it– abstaining from the Lord’s Supper is undesirable, certainly if you do it all the time. Secondly, Paul opposed the idea of Timothy engaging in total abstinence, apparently. He wanted him to drink a little wine for his stomach’s sake.
Still, I find this article to have some logical problems. He says, “He instructs the church leaders, whether pastors (1 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 1:7) or deacons (1 Tim. 3:8,) regarding the consumption of alcohol to be “blameless,” strongly implying total abstinence is the Biblical standard.”
Look at I Timothy 3:8. It contradicts his conclusion. Look up that verse in the Greek. How can you get total abstinence out of a command that deacons not be given to much wine? If they are not to be given to much wine, they can drink some.
And some people do drink dilluted wine. I hear farmers in the field in Italy drink a bit of wine with lots of water. I’ve also read the interpretation that ‘strong drink’ is undilluted wine.
If you grew up in a Methodist-and-temperance-movement-influenced religion, like Pentecostals or Southern Baptist, maybe some mild drinking would be considered a reproach. But it is not from a Biblical perspective.
Jesus drank wine and gave the apostles wine and told them to drink it. So how can we be holy by looking down our noses on people Who did what Jesus did. Isn’t the ‘holier-than-thou’ condemning attitude that a lot of Pentecostals have toward those who drink like Jesus drank (non-sinfully and in moderation) a problem that pastors need to address? Instead of writing articles in favor of teetotalalism, which we know is not required in scripture, why not also address the issue of legalistic snobby false holiness that consists of adhering to manmade standards (e.g. ‘Taste not’) that God does not require, while looking judgmentally down on those who do not adhere to them.
Even John Wesley did not outright condemn the drinking of wine in moderation. He preached against the dangers of distilled liquors. Drunks addicted to gin were an issue in his day, and the preaching evolved to condemning drinking wine and beer in moderation.
I was raised not drinking wine, beer, etc. I’ve probably drunk much less alcohol (mainly as cough medicine or residual amounts in Japanese or Italian food) than most preachers I’ve encountered who are opposed to alcohol. Other than cough medicine and small amounts in food cooked with wine, about two years ago, I had maybe an 8th of a glass of red wine on a plan two years ago when I had a throat infection forming in my throat while flying to China for a job interview process that required a presentation and a demo class. It really helped my throat a lot. I’ve never been drunk or tipsy from drinking.
I say that as a non-drinker, because the legalistic condemning type of Pentecostal likes to respond to reasonable posts on the topic of drinking by accusing the poster of being a drunk, being against holiness.
You can’t be holier than Jesus.
Melvin Harter
We are commanded not to even have fellowship with drunkards – I Corinthians 5:11.
Link Hudson
Romans 14 gives us some wisdom on this:
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Paul applies his teaching to drinking wine later in the chapter. Those who are opposed to drinking wine should take this advise as well. The should not judge those who drink in moderation, and give thanks to God.
I don’t know if there were any teetotalers in Paul’s day who’d invented a doctrine of it. Timothy may have been completely abstaining for whatever reason, and Paul did not agree with that. Paul could have been a temporary teetotaler if he had a Nazarite vow, but from grapes, grape juice, and raisins also. I don’t think the post-Wesley doctrine existed then. There may have been some gnostic type groups or ascetics of different types who wanted to abstain from certain foods to be holy.
My guess would be Paul’s reference to drinking wine might have had something to do with the fear that some of the wine sold in the marketplace had been poured out as a libation to a false god before being sold. Either that or it could have been some sort of kosher issue.
Varnel Watson
Romans 14 speaks specifically to eating (or not eating) sacrifice Has nothing to do with social drinking. It is a far stretch by any exegetical rule. It also insults people who dont drink as weak in the faith which is nowhere close to what Paul was talking about BTW as a I understand Melvin Harter properly any member of the organization called Church of God is NOT allowed to drink per their Practical Commitments. Therefore, no one who drinks wine, beer, stronger drink can hold membership or claim any association with the Church of God. Is this well understood? Ed Brewer
Randal W Deese
It is a serious stretch of the imagination and an anachronistic fallacy to teach that social drinking was not the norm in Biblical days. They all drank wine as much as water at every social gathering.
Varnel Watson
Dont think Jesus was in anachronistic fallacy when he said in Matthew 26:29
I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Link Hudson
Troy Day I don’t get your point about anachronistic fallacy. He drank the fruit of the vine then. The disciples were to continue drinking it.
Randal W Deese
Troy Day You didn’t make any sense.
Varnel Watson
I simply quoted what Jesus said – what does not make sense to you in the Words of Jesus?
Link Hudson
Troy Day When did Jesus say ‘anachronistic fallacy’. That part didn’t make sense.
The anachronistic fallacy would be to assume that first century Jews or Christians held to 19th century Holiness movement beliefs against consumption of any alcoholic beverage.
Varnel Watson
That was the term used by Randal W Deese BTW Link you are getting sidetracked again – Are you yourself a Church of God member who drinks beer, wine, stronger drink?
Link Hudson
Troy Day I haven’t claimed I am a part of the Cleveland denomination, but I don’t know if GBI has any teetotaler rules at the denominational level. I’d be a bit surprised if they did. When I went to one in the 1990’s. someone had brought back some real wine from Israel in one of the congregations and they’d mix it into the communion wine.
I would suspect GPDI to be more likely to have such rules, and they are with Foursquare now.
Eric Phillips
Troy Day seems to have a strange love affair with the Practical Commitments of the COG.
Notice these are extra and above the Doctrinal Commitments.
If you excommunicate any and everyone who doesn’t follow in full the Practical Commitments of the COG you would have to shut many churches and most Pastors would lose their credentials.
All non-tithers OUT!
Those who don’t submit to the authority placed over them in the Lord OUT!
If you read under Spiritual Example and the under Good Stewards it even tells us how to spend our time….they may deem our debate as a waste of time! OUT! It speaks out against to much leisure time OUT!
It talks about the wise use of money! All the Preachers who built buildings they couldn’t fill or pay for, all the state offices that just about went under a few years ago and the Int’l Leaders who had to reorganize to keep the COG from Bankruptcy OUT!
I could go on and on and on ad homimem since Troy seems to want to kick anyone he can out of the COG and Melvin wants to send them all to hell!
Varnel Watson
Only after bro Melvin mentioned them I connected them to Link strange claims he is/was cog member Are you a cog member too??? I am not that familiar with the booklet
Eric Phillips
http://www.churchofgod.org/practical-commitments
Link Hudson
Troy Day when did I ever make such a claim? I spent about a year attending COGs in high school bit I spent several years in the A/G. I was an ‘aktivis’ at a GBI in Indonesia for about a year and I have preached in GBIs. I never applied for membership in a US CoG (Cleveland). My story hasn’t changed.
Varnel Watson
well any time you made it I countered that you are not cog or ag but some strange bird sort – you always got upset; now it turns its true our AG dont allow drinking either
Randal W Deese
I hate fake holiness. When anyone adds rules to their faith as proof of purity that Scripture does not firmly teach, it is the opposite of true holiness.
Link Hudson
Troy Day So what? The Son of Man came eating and drinking.
Varnel Watson
Randal Orthodoxy has plenty of rules on dressing 🙂 especially for the priests – how did you chose your gown colors ? Nothing Link – just that you are not Pentecostal that’s all I rest my case
Randal W Deese
Troy Day but… The emphasis is quite different. Every church has rules, but extra rules to become holy…hmmm
Randal W Deese
Troy Day I didn’t know Pentecostalism is defined by you? Please give me your definition of a true Pentecostal?
Varnel Watson
The emphasis is always on holiness. Remember the guy who lived on top of a pillar ?
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Ha ha ha ha
Randal W Deese
Your appointment be valid if every person was required to live on top of the pillar… If you think about these things a little deeper
Link Hudson
Not familiar with the pillar analogy. Troy Day are you more concerned with preserving tradition or with the truth of the word of God.
You can’t be holier than Jesus.
Link Hudson
Troy Day Not drinking doesn’t make someone weak in faith. If someone thinks all drinking of alcohol in sin, yes he is weak in faith in that area.
Principles of conscience extended beyond issue of meat offered to idols. Corinthians is clear that is the weak conscience issue. In this passage, we have to guess. It could have had to do with kashrut or something else entirely.
At least Christians who thought mystery meat from the market was unholy had some kind of Biblical or theological basis for their belief. Even the article you quote cites a verse reference that allows drinking, and tries to spin an article outright. ‘Not given to much wine’ implies drinking a little is allowed.
Also, I read an article that pointed out the lack of scientific evidence that alcohol in the drinking water killed parasites. It seems reasonable, but I don’t know if there is any evidence for it, much less the idea that this was the reason they drank back then. There could be health benefits for the stomach other than antiseptic properties
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson Does drinking wine, beer, stronger drink make one not a member of the Church of God? Melvin Harter
Link Hudson
No, of course not. The members of ‘the church of God which is at Corinth’ had ‘real wine’ for what was supposed to be the Lord’s Supper. Paul doesn’t condemn that. He does comment on their drunkenness.
Link Hudson
Wine had to be fully fermented to be kosher for Passover. They drank wine in Matthew 26. In Matthew 23, Jesus had said the scribes and Pharisees sat in Moses seat and to do what they ‘bid you observe.’
The Pharisees had them drinking wine that was completely fermented so all the yeast in the wine would die and they could slough it off the top. Grape juice could have yeast in it that hadn’t all died off yet, so it wasn’t kosher.
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson Seems to me you are not even Church of God after all. It may do you well to do some research how the NT uses words about wine and drinking around Jesus. You will note quickly that NT writers use the words cup, fruit of the vine and so one. Jesus said This cup – no Gospel writer dared argue what was in it. The fruit of the vine means exactly that not a strong drink like ye suppose. Same goes for Acts 2, Timothy and so on. French Arrington explains it much better than I can
BOTTOM LINE: People drink cause they want to drink (and use the Bible as an excuse) If you have a drinking addiction to the point that you need the Bible to justify it, you should look for professional help
Link Hudson
Troy Day Those who try to preach teetotalism just have made up doctrine without a leg to stand on Biblically. The reason the Bible can be an ‘excuse’ to drink is that there are plenty of examples of righteous people drinking wine, etc. and verses that indicate that it is allowed. There are warnings against excess.
And like I said, I am a non-drinker with the exceptions (e.g. cough syrup, residue in shrimp scampi or Japanese noodles), though legalistic Pentecostals who don’t have any scripture to back up what they say often like to accuse those who do not agree of having a drinking problem or insinuate it.
The Gospels do not explicitly say what was in the cup, but Jews drank cups of fully fermented wine for Passover. I thought you folks who have degrees in theology learned about all that history stuff.
Link Hudson
Troy Day I am part of the church of God in the Bible. As far as the Cleveland denomination goes, I didn’t say I am a part of that. Maybe you are getting us posters mixed up. I’ve attended regularly a couple of them in the past if you count GBIs in Indonesia.
Randal W Deese
We use real wine in the Lords Supper as it has been done for 2000 years.
Link Hudson
Luke 7:33-34
For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’
The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ (ESV)
Troy Day and Melvin Harter Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking. What was He drinking in this context?
Randal W Deese
Grape juice argument began during abstinence movement. It is fraught with historical misinformation so as to justify it’s novelity in the history of His Church!!
Randal W Deese
If I had time I would respond to every point Dr French has brought up. … In fact, I need to go… Blessings
Varnel Watson
Randal Grape juice argument began during abstinence movement in America, you know? There are other countries in the world You really need to broaden your scope being orthodox and all
Link Hudson
Troy Day You are the one who holds to a position created in America that is pretty much unique to America and maybe a few places affected by American missionaries. Some Presbyterian missionaries to South Korea apparently taught teetotalism. Strangely enough, Yoido Full Gospel seemed to be serving ‘real wine’ for communion when I visited in the 1990’s.
Varnel Watson
Link To be honest I am not surprised to learn that you are not Church of God like you’ve claimed Your amalgamation seems to be somewhat cultural but certainly not theological or practical
Link Hudson
Troy Day, I have been consistent with my claims. I have attended COG and GBI (Indonesian version of COG) in the past, and I haved preached in GBIs on occasion.
Why do I get the sense that denominational affiliation seems to be more important to you than whether your ideas are Biblical?
Angel Ruiz
Denominational affiliation is somewhat important maybe not as important as biblical theology but if affiliation someone stresses dissipate in the same Logistics of worship for example Church of God of the USA and Church of God in Mexico are culturally different but we still participate in the same logistical worship values
Varnel Watson
Link What does your Church of God practical commitments say about drinking strong drinks and social drinking by members?
Link Hudson
Troy Day I’ve heard they are against it. If Jesus did not abide by a practical commitment, it should be called into question.
Angel Ruiz
The same could be said about some of the teachings of the Apostles the apostles spoke on areas of what Jesus never spoke of this was to establish Unity we could say that some of the teachings of the Apostles could be practical commitments for the local church
Link Hudson
Are you equating practical commitments ith the epistles. Why not just accept RCC traditions as binding?
Angel Ruiz
Cuz Roman Catholic traditions are not found in Scripture
Link Hudson
Angel Ruiz and that is an issue with the practical commitments too.
Angel Ruiz
Yes they are…
Link Hudson
Saying a Christian must abstain from all alcoholic beverages is not Biblical. Jesus told tge disciples to Drink ye all of it. Tea is a mood altering substance.
Varnel Watson
cog holds it as a matter of membership, which you seem not to hold or if you do is in some strange way of social drinking
Link Hudson
Jesus in 20 AD would not have met the qualifications for membership in the COG (Cleveland), would He?
Link Hudson
Troy Day I haven’t heard of such requirements around here. Alcohol is not as much a part of the culture, either. But it doesn’t effect me anyway. Btw, as I pointed out, I am not a ‘social drinker.’ Alcoholic beverages stink. I just don’t condemn people for drinking in moderation like Jesus did. I would drink communion wine if it were ‘real wine’ as opposed to grape juice.
Varnel Watson
That makes sense for organization that is just amalgamated but not really part of larger denomination Good point
Link Hudson
It was the largest national conference the last I heard.
Joseph D. Absher
φαρμακεία is pharmakia and translated withcraft in the new testament. Pharmakia means drugs and booze. I’ll often hear a man call it “self medicating.” This includes drinking and weed and dope. Things like this altar a man’s personality. Clouds his judgment, corrupts the morals of a man and pulls down his will.
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,…”
— Galatians 5:19,20
Pharmakia is used again in Revelations
“Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
— Revelation 9:12
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
— Revelation 21:8
Link Hudson
Pharmakia means ‘drugs and booze’. That’s a pretty huge leap. It’s translated witchcraft. If it has something to do with potions, that doesn’t mean it refers to the drinking of wine, which is mentioned many times in the Bible. Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine. Was he telling him to engage in a little ‘pharmakia’?
Joseph D. Absher
A little wine for his stomach is not going change his personality. But even a couple of beers can do that. Link Hudson
Link Hudson
They used to mix wine down with water in ancient times. Shakespeare even mentions the practice.
Joseph D. Absher
Yes I’ve heard. It’s in the Bible too. I think that would dilute it. Especially if it’s homemade wine. It would gardly be an alcoholic beverage at all.
Link Hudson
Troy Day On some level, you’ve got to realize it doesn’t make any sense to read teetotalerism into the Bible.
Do you think the Pharisees accused Jesus of being a Welch’s grape juice bibber?
Link Hudson
I hear the Jewish authorities allowed mixing Passover wine down to a certain ration. I think it was 5 to1 or 6 to 1. Children drank during the meals as well.
Varnel Watson
The mix drink is just one of many theories out there that people use to justify their love for drinking. The Bible NO where even implies Jesus Himself drunk mixed drink
Link Hudson
Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking.
What other vines did Jews drink the fruit of.
Joseph D. Absher
Do you really think this is over a glass of wine? It’s not even over the scriptures. It’s about men and their sin. People want their sin and so called liberty. Who has one glass of wine. Nobody I know.
Link Hudson
Joseph D. Absher I was reading the other day that about half of American drinking-occasions lead to drunkenness while it is like 1 out of 10 for Europeans. It’s a cultural thing, maybe even something spurred on a bit by prohibition.
I’m not into drinking wine or beer, but I am sure you can find people who might drink one craft beer with dinner or one glass of wine.
Joseph D. Absher
That’s good blame the law. That’s a hot one
Link Hudson
Joseph D. Absher The issue here is men making up doctrine. Melvin Harter even said social drinkers go to Hell. Men have no right to damn Christians God hasn’t damned. That’s false doctrine, and it goes against the teaching of scripture about judging, e.g. Romans 14.
Joseph D. Absher
So if you’re for drinking it’s a crusade against judging?
Link Hudson
Joseph D. Absher I’m against false doctrine and legalism. I grew up not drinking. I am not a ‘social drinker.’ I’ll drink cough medicine if I need it, and wine in communion if they use ‘real wine’ (which some Pentecostal churches do, btw, in Indonesia and South Korea). I’m not trying to get people to drink.
But it is wrong for Pentecostals to look down their noses at believers who drink in moderation. And it is very wrong to condemn them to Hell for it.
Link Hudson
I’m also a bit tired of tradition-generated stupidity. If someone says something stupid from the pulpit, don’t believe it just because it’s from the pulpit or because your papaw and your meemaw’s preacher used to say it. If it’s old timey preaching that doesn’t make it right.
If you can open up the BIble and see the preacher contradicted the Bible, it’s wrong.
Joseph D. Absher
So you’re promoting and defending drinking? “In moderation?”
Varnel Watson
Great point bro Joseph D. Absher Was this the wine is mocker comment you had the other day?
Joseph D. Absher
No sir. Do you mean the one the devil for deacon and pervert leading the choir?
Varnel Watson
Thank you bro Joseph D. Absher
The argument people are making to drink without getting intoxicating
is NOT from the BIBLE
It is liberally borrowed from the Clintons
who spoke pot but did not inhale
People drink because they want to drink
not because the Bible says they can drink wine
If you are delivered from it you dont mess with it no more [period]
Drinking socially shows a deep social psychological disorder
The need to justify it with the Bible is fundamentally wrong theology
Randal W Deese
Hahaha
Randal W Deese
1. I use real wine in the Lord’s Supper because it’s an act of holiness
Randal W Deese
2. I drink wine at home as a reminder of God’s blessing and fruitfulness.
Randal W Deese
3. As one who was powerful he delivered from alcohol and drug abuse, the Lord has set me free from desire to get high either.
Randal W Deese
And for the record, I drink alcohol with a dinner about one time in every three months. He who is free is free indeed. I have no desire to ever go back to my pre-conversion days of alcohol and drug abuse.
Varnel Watson
You are so funny 🙂
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Thank you.
Joseph D. Absher
What does it represent. Success, fellow ship, comfort, status, fun,
Then consider the other uses in the Bible stubbornness, pride. The wrath of God. This might be the one case where I “spiritualize” the Bible. New wine is joy and gladness and cleansing.
Joseph D. Absher
In court with a new believer. On a different case a young man was sentenced. Two years in prison. Unsuccessful in drug court. The charge was two overdoses in one day. Thats right he was revived and released and found dead a second time the same day. With heroin and needles. He O.D.’ed behind the wheel. People think overdose happens immediately. It doesn’t. Same with alcohol deaths. It takes time to work it’s way into the system. You can work with a man and they will get drunker even after they have stopped drinking. Sober minded means more than abstinence from drugs and alcohol. It be honest before God and not self deceived.
Varnel Watson
Randal W Deese Joseph D. Absher IF I MAY cite David Lewayne Porter here just for my friend Dr. Melvin Harter
David Lewayne Porter
11 ago hrs · Harnett, NC, United States ·
“From a ministry friend:
Alcohol-Related Deaths:
An estimated 88,000 people (approximately 62,000 men and 26,000 women)die from alcohol-related causes annually in the United States.
In 2014, alcohol-impaired driving fatalities accounted for 9,967 deaths (31 percent of overall driving fatalities).
Economic Burden:
In 2010, alcohol misuse cost the United States $249.0 billion.
Three-quarters of the total cost of alcohol misuse is related to binge drinking.
Why aren’t we dealing with this abomination?” [end OF quote]
WE START with getting rid of ToT sipping dipping and tripping preachers FIRST in the church, so we can PREACH the pure Gospel of salvation and holiness without being made fun of by the world where drinking cigs and drugs are long discarded from the social norm
We start in the church and establish NON-drinking standard of holiness there FIRST before consuming ourselves with stats from the world. Look at the Church first – the world will close their own bars and pubs when the Church is on Fire of Revival – it happened before in history you know Alan Smith http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/newspring-removes-perry-noble-due-to-alcoholism/
Randal W Deese
That isn’t in the Bible..hmmmm
Varnel Watson
drugs are not in the bible ?
Randal W Deese
Troy Day
Number of new syphilis cases: 74,702 (2015)
Number of new chlamydia cases: 1,526,658 (2015)
Number of new gonorrhea cases: 395,216 (2015)
And what about all the deaths from the same…
We should ban sex because someone might abuse it… Haha
Varnel Watson
was the next thing I was gonna post for David
David Lewayne Porter
The world will close it’s own bars and pubs….
Quoting Troy Day.
Is that why the wheat and tares grow together,
That is why men will grow worse and worse
That is why there will be a GREAT falling away.
Yes we will draw some, but don’t count on the world closing up all our even many of it’s pubs and bars (unless of course you pull a Smith Wigglesworth and personally get the owner saved).
David Lewayne Porter
You guys are hilarious
Troy Day Randal W Deese…
Ban sex.
Sex is not the issue. Using it contrary to God’s guidelines is the issue.
So let’s discuss the other THINGS, items, and situations in which the item is not the issue, the over indulgence or use other than God intends is the actual issue.
Randal W Deese
David Lewayne Porter You proved my point. Thank you
David Lewayne Porter
If you think I proved your point you are truly lost Randal W Deese.
There was no point.
It is funny he Troy Day only posted part of the original post.
As normal he twist things to fit his agenda.
Randal W Deese
David Lewayne Porter
Having alcohol is fine if used in accordance to GODs guidelines.
Having sex is fine if it is done in accordance to GODs guidelines.
Simple, logical and Scriptural.
Both are allowed within perimeters.
David Lewayne Porter
Exactly
David Lewayne Porter
So Randal W Deese
Your point was different from mine how?
Randal W Deese
David Lewayne Porter
I didn’t say yours was different
David Lewayne Porter
It came across that way.
Here is the entire post, including what Troy Day left out. …
From a ministry friend:
Alcohol-Related Deaths:
An estimated 88,000 people (approximately 62,000 men and 26,000 women)die from alcohol-related causes annually in the United States.
In 2014, alcohol-impaired driving fatalities accounted for 9,967 deaths (31 percent of overall driving fatalities).
Economic Burden:
In 2010, alcohol misuse cost the United States $249.0 billion.
Three-quarters of the total cost of alcohol misuse is related to binge drinking.
Why aren’t we dealing with this abomination?
Shouldn’t the alcohol industry be held financially accountable and that money used to repair the damage being done instead of our tax dollars.
– end from friend -….
IMHO
(And they are after certain style guns:
Sad, sad indeed).
Need we discuss abortion?
Link Hudson
How many early deaths occur due to overeating? Does that make it a sin to eat food?
Varnel Watson
David Lewayne Porter to respond to you misquoting me again:
“Is that why the wheat and tares grow together,
That is why men will grow worse and worse
That is why there will be a GREAT falling away.”
“The messages of Evan Roberts were simple and yet powerful, so much so that it was reported that even the bars (pubs) closed for lack of patrons. ” – just one of many examples. This WHY we should study church history – so we dont repeat it.
The reason we have a falling away is namely because preachers drink and are scared to preach the holiness way because their drinking parishioners would not pay them – so much for holiness by the church clerk paycheck IF churches preach holiness way again bars will close down
BTW if you believe the great falling away you should also believe in a last days great revival. But how do I explain something like that to a pessimistic eschatologian?
AMEN Melvin Harter
https://www.proclaimanddefend.org/2017/01/20/evan-roberts-and-the-welsh-revival/
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
If you don’t think that you are able to explain anything to a pessimistic eschatologian
Then why do you troll and tag them?
When you can reconcile Spirit Filled Holy Ghost believers being demonized and acting out during services as they hold positions of authority within the Church
Then maybe just maybe those pessimistic eschatologians will listen to you as an authoritative source.
Varnel Watson
I dont think I am able to explain anything to a pessimistic eschatologian either. Are you one? Praise GOD anyhow Joseph D. Absher David Lewayne Porter and how do you reconcile Spirit Filled Holy Ghost believers drinking beer and strong drinks?
David Lewayne Porter
So Troy Day
You believe that a great end time revival is going to close bars and pubs while they are going to be needed for the simultaneous falling away?
Nice theology there.
Yes, I see said the blind man.
8)
Varnel Watson
David Lewayne Porter What is the measure in your practical commitments against drinking preachers / members and preachers who condone social drinking? The exact measure pls
Link Hudson
A Biblical tithe:
Deuteronomy 14:26
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Troy Day and Melvin Harter Do you think God was wrong?
David Lewayne Porter
Now Link,
Don’t confuse Troy.
Link Hudson
The idea that tradition, including stuff preached from old timey pulpits, might not be Biblical can be confusing to some people.
Link Hudson
If you insist that a man not drink wine to be holy shouldn’t you also insist that he grow his hair long?
Varnel Watson
Sorry for not including you in my cog references Angel Ruiz whats your take on all this?
Joseph D. Absher
Not to throw the discussion off but if I remember correctly the grand old methodist Mr. Wesley recommended some wine to his preachers. But the climate in jolly old England is rather damp.
David Lewayne Porter
I have seen where Wesley was against alcohol use except for as prescribed by a physician. Yet and using alcohol as prescribed by a physician, it still shows the moderation of use. That’s why I stand the way I do. If someone says they’re a teetotaler, then they can’t use it anytime anyway in any form.
Joseph D. Absher
I believe Wesley was referring to strong drink. Gin etc.
David Lewayne Porter
The Johnathon Wesley foundation has some interesting reading on the subject.
Joseph D. Absher
I have on fact read Wesley was a home brewer
David Lewayne Porter
Sources please
Joseph D. Absher
Leaving for early church. Later?
David Lewayne Porter
I am almost at service now
Joseph D. Absher
Yup and praying for focus lol
Link Hudson
There is a sermon quote where he recommended beer I came across not too long ago. He was apparently against distilled liquor.
David Lewayne Porter
Source please
Varnel Watson
Many preachers been sipping nyquil this flue season
Randal W Deese
Oh no… They are sinning. Take their license… Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Varnel Watson
now thats a proven fact http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/newspring-removes-perry-noble-due-to-alcoholism/
Randal W Deese
Troy Day If the man is getting drunk on a regular basis… Of course… But you mentioned NyQuil
David Lewayne Porter
Perry Noble had a larger issue than nyquil or medicine or for that matter flavorings.
He had an issue, a youthful lust – with alcohol which was shown by a lack of moderation, as in he had no moderation.
Varnel Watson
He has been reinstated in Clemson – probably because of the building project he started next to the campus and needed to supervise Do you know him personally?
Varnel Watson
O HOLY GOD we, have come to a point where
pastors text and post on facebook during sermon hour while thousands are going to hell in a hand basket at the same time
teachers be sipping a beer with friends on Saturday night and get up to teach Sunday school on Sunday morning still with alcohol on their breath
seminary professors teaching it is OK to drink in the Bible during the so called Theology on Tap meetings in a local pub
lonely pastors sitting in their cars shooting whiskey in the darkness of the church parking lot after preaching 2-3 services on Sunday
preachers are concerned with every social, political and cultural issues except the salvation of eternal human souls Alan Smith Melvin Harter
Link Hudson
Preacher be eating and drinking with sinners while teaching them about the kungdom of heaven then be condemned by the Pharisees for doing so.
Varnel Watson
cheap excuse
Link Hudson
Your whole way of thinking about this is so alien to the way the apostles thought about it and what the Bible teaches.
It’s kind of like this anti-beard Oneness preacher. Most of us don’t care one way or another about beards. Wearing a beard doesn’t make you any less holy. But because of this guy’s tradition for whatever reason, they must have some weird idea that not wearing a beard is more holy.
He wrote,
“When Apostolic Pentecostal Churches And Organizations Say It Is Ok To Wear Beards, The Question Soon Arises…
Why?
What do they hope to gain?
Does that bring revival?
Is this in anyway related to the same spirit of rebellion of the Hippies?
What is the purpose?
In some twisted way does the wearer feel it makes them more like Jesus? How?
Isn’t pride part of it?”
From: https://martynballestero.com/2014/05/27/i-dont-like-facial-hair-on-pentecostal-men/
Isn’t that whole line of questioning just dumb? Why think there is anything wrong with beards in the first place? Some people interpret Isaiah to mean Jesus ahd a beard.
Varnel Watson
beards? another cheap excuse when out of ammo ? attack the issue not the person – the issue is depressed preachers turn to whisky and substance abuse
Link Hudson
Troy Day I notice your tactic when someone demolishes one of your arguments– call their post a ‘cheap excuse.’
Varnel Watson
You are out of order. Speak to the issue please
Link Hudson
Preachers shouldn’t get drunk. Neither should deacons or any other Christian. But Jesus instituted something that involved drinking alcohol in church.
Randal W Deese
Link Hudson You are absolutely right link. Therefore, those who do not use alcoholic wine in the Lord supper are not following after holiness. They’re following after their own ideals.
Link Hudson
Randal W Deese If they aren’t Jewish and it isn’t around Passover time, does it matter if the wine is kosher?
Randal W Deese
Link Hudson The only thing that’s important to me as we follow scripture as best as we can without playing games with his word for our own personal agendas
Varnel Watson
Nowhere JESUS said to use wine for the Supper. He literally said THIS CUP – go figure it out when you learn Greek
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Perhaps you could go study the idiom of Hebrew call fruit of the vine… I’m tell grape juice was introduced everybody understood what it meant… This novel Doctrine is sin
Link Hudson
Troy Day It says cup. It says fruit of the vine. But Jews drank wine at Passover–fully fermented to be kosher for Passover. And what ever the Corinthians were drinking could get an individual drunk if he drank it in excess.
Varnel Watson
You know that for a fact from where? Not the Bible at all means There is no single verse in the NT saying Jesus drunk strong wine. Show me one? The only one you’ve been copy pasting is false accusation from his enemies which still does not imply he practiced social drinking as you imply.
Link Hudson
Troy Day Of John the Baptist we read,
13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink.
(NKJV)
What did John not drink?
Luke 7
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ 35 But wisdom is justified by all her children.”
(NKJV)
Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking. Do you disagree? The accusation implied excess, which was not true.
Varnel Watson
It is plausible to suggest Jesus held the same standards as John the Baptist did They read from the same Scriptures in the same community => same standards
Link Hudson
Troy Day Nazarites were not allowed wine or strong drink.
But strong drink was poured out as an offering before the Lord. He apparently didn’t think of it as some preachers do, as if it were dung in the camp. And Jews were allowed to use one of the tithes, if they lived far from the place the LORD chose, to buy food, wine, and strong drink to consume.
Link Hudson
Troy Day Jesus and John were different. John did not come eating or drinking, but the Son of Man came eating and drinking.
Varnel Watson
So said his enemies only – no one else They did quote from the same OT manuscripts however which denotes their interpretation was not that much different. But again NO where the Bible says Jesus drunk wine. Dr. Arrington makes a great case for that – read it in the article and good luck
Link Hudson
Troy Day Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking. HIs opponents took this and distorted it to call Him a winebibber. What beverage was discussed in that passage in Luke 7?
Link Hudson
Jesus said that whatever the scribes and Pharisees ‘bid you observe, that observe and do.’ Why would He have had a beverage besides wine in the cup if that were the case?
Varnel Watson
So do you do everything that the scribes and Pharisees ‘bid or just the social drinking. This is again a partial argument so easily excuse. You simple have no Biblical evidence for social drinking. That’s all
Link Hudson
Troy Day Come on. Be honest with yourself. Don’t you realize there is no reason to try to read back teetotalerism into the scriptures except for tradition– your church tradition for about 100 years or a little more has opposed all alcoholic beverages. But you can read the Bible too. You can see that drinking wine or beer (or strong drink) for tithes as allowed in the Old Testament, just like I can.
Like me, you can’t find where wine was outlawed. Sure, there are warnings against it. Excess of wine is a dangerous thing. But it isn’t forbidden. There are also some positive statements about wine. It is given to make men’s heart’s merry.
The Jews drank wine at Passover. It had to be fermented completely to be kosher, because the yeast had to die completely to be removed. Jesus drank ‘the fruit of the vine.’ You might insist one of the 12 sailed a boat to the Americas to get some tomato juice, or that some other fruit of the vine was in the cup. But you know that is ridiculous just as I do.
I’m asking you to be honest with yourself. Depart from tradition for once when it just doesn’t make sense.
Link Hudson
Troy Day Kosher wine for Passover was one of the kosher issues the scribes and Pharisees dealt with. And it was a religous festival, not mere ‘social drinking.’
Randal W Deese
And I suppose one could argue that since a group of people were drinking a cup of wine, it was social
Randal W Deese
Thank God for wine and Strong drink. May Believers return to the truth of the Bible instead of committing the anachronistic Fallacy with their novel doctrines of Pharisaic Legalism. Talk about a tradition of man!
David Lewayne Porter
Not to sure about thanking God for strong drink,,,
But I do agree with the rest of it.
Randal W Deese
Maybe rejoicing with strong drink would have been a better way of saying it… *Smile*
Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household…
David Lewayne Porter
Yes I know the scriptures over strong drink in celebration.
I also know the ones against it.
Varnel Watson
Nowhere did JESUS say to use wine for the Supper.
Literally NO WHERE
He said THIS CUP is my blood
Randal W Deese
The Hebrew idiom fruit of the vine was always alcoholic beverage… Go study the older Hebrew language
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
How were the Corinthians leaving the Lord’s table/supper “drunken”?
Paul’s commission to them was against drunkenness as he offered moderation and restraint as well as reminding them it was God’s house, not their own.
Varnel Watson
David Lewayne Porter Since you ask – how do you practice the Lord’s supper – do you give wine or juice? What has your denomination authorized you to give with the bread?
David Lewayne Porter
No Troy Day
You always divert.
You accuse others of teaching man’s traditions and not having proper biblical understanding and follow through, so
Why were the Corinthians leaving drunken?
How according to your BIBLE were they getting drunken?
As Jesus said to his Pharisees,
“You can’t answer me, then neither do I answer you”.
Varnel Watson
No diversion. I ask you directly – do you practice what you preach? It is a simple test for hypocrisy Will you stand you in your church at Communion and serve strong wine? I would and I have. Dont divert from my question please – what do you serve during Communion?
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day,
I asked first, I asked according to scripture.
You diverted.
You asked according to man’s teaching and traditions.
Sad, sad indeed.
I just wonder if you do it intentionally or if you truly don’t see it……
Varnel Watson
Why you call me a fraud? I havent called you any names? Arent you a fraud being licensed in a non-drinking denomination but you hold a Jesus-drunk theology David Lewayne Porter You should surrender your license
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Certainly Jesus drank alcoholic drinks.
Luk 7:33-34 NET. For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’ (34) The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him, a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
The Jews of His day took the fact that Jesus drank wine, to the extreme, in an attempt to paint Jesus in a poor light. I have no doubt that Jesus never got “drunk”, but from this verse it is obvious that He did drink alcohol beverages.
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
Your biblical misunderstanding shows….
Allow me,
You mentioned strong wine…
Biblically speaking.
It is wine and then strong drink.
Where did you biblically, not man’s traditions, get strong wine?
Sad indeed
Varnel Watson
I addressed this already Randal W Deese This is what his enemies said about Him. You got no case there
Randal W Deese
Troy Day You need to read it in a little more closely….
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day, when you can address the conversation that you left and refuse to address to where you claim spirit filled Holy Ghost believers can possess and manifest demon during church services,,,
Then you may sit in a position to require someone else to abide by teaching or surrender credentials.
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Jesus is the one that said that he came eating and drinking… Don’t read into Scriptures what you wanted to say
Varnel Watson
David Lewayne Porter In your organization how does one report a minister who indulges in social drinking theology? How does the process work exactly? Would you please tell me I also ask bro Melvin Harter on this one Thank you so much for you answer
David Lewayne Porter
And for the record I have used both.
I have used Welch’s
BUT
DID YOU KNOW those little premade communion cups will FERMENT before their expiration date?
And it is not just one church or service I have been in that used them while they had fermented.
So Troy Day
Take all their credentials.
So back to you. …
The Corinthians were leaving DRUNKEN!
Your Bible says that in KJV and Greek.
I rest my case.
Varnel Watson
David Lewayne Porter Will you please answer my question: In your organization how does one report a minister who indulges in social drinking theology? How does the process work exactly? No answer? I rest my case
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
Why, are you a credentialed CoG member wanting to do so?
Varnel Watson
What is a credentialed member? I would like to know what the exact process is. Will you tell me please?
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
Trust me, the CoG knows my stance, I have the same discussions in house on our closed forums
David Lewayne Porter
Active member or credentialed minister, take your pick, I don’t believe you are either,
I have never seen your name on the lists. …
David Lewayne Porter
Gotta go, at work, until tonight…
Troy Day that gives you time to answer my question biblically
Varnel Watson
So you wouldnt tell me 🙂 Surely someone would know what the process is to be followed here
Randal W Deese
Where is David? If he has been kicked out because he disagrees with Troy, I will leave as well… I don’t play with dictator groups
Melvin Harter
Bro Day, there have been several CoG ministers who were found to be drinking alcoholic beverages. Their ministries were totally revoked. Some years later, they were able to get their credentials back. Now those who engage into the social drinking theology? I can only officially state what it was some years ago. There were two specific questions on every CoG ministerial examination; namely, (1) are there any CoG Teachings that you disagree with? And (2) Do you agree with ALL the Teachings of the CoG and will you abide by each one of them? Of course, you must answer these questions correctly if you are to be granted ministerial license in the CoG. If you failed to correctly answer either of these two particular questions, then you were denied acceptance.
Randal W Deese
Melvin Harter I’m glad I am not a part of humanistic legalistic denomination. Praise God!!! Jesus would lose His credentials!
Melvin Harter
Bro Randal W Deese, I too am glad that I am not of a worldly church denomination. Praise God! Jesus would never be found there.
Varnel Watson
Right on Biblical Because of the effects of drinking alcoholic beverages, the Bible is against drinking alcohol (Prov. 23:29-35). In fact, in the New Testament there appears to be a clear movement toward the rejection of the use of alcohol and for total abstinence. Such a movement is known as the “Biblical process.” For example, in the New Testament we can see the significance of the Biblical process in reference to the actual drink used in the Lord’s Supper. When Jesus instituted the Supper, he did not use the term “wine” (oinos). Rather he spoke of “the fruit of the vine” (Matt. 26:26-27; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:17-20). Furthermore, Paul speaks of “the cup” when referring to the beverage used in the Supper (1 Cor. 10:16, 21; 11:23-28). The point is, it is very significant that there is no reference in Scripture to wine in connection with the Lord’s Supper. Does this suggest something about Jesus’ and Paul’s attitude regarding strong drink?
Link Hudson
Nonsense. Fruit of the vine might free us Gentiles up a bit. But three chapters earlier in Matthew Jesus said to do what the scribes and Pharisees bid because they sat in Moses seat. Jesus and the apostles would jave kept kosher and hotten rid pf the yeast and not eaten ot at Passover. Grape juice was not kosher for Passover. When the wine was fully fermented, Jews would slough off the dead yeast. It was the custom to mix the wine with up to six parts water.
When it came to drinking Jesus said to the apostles- drink ye all of it. They all were to drink of it.
Timothy likely tried teetotalerism. Paul told him to keep himself ppure but told him not to drink water only but to drink a little wine for his stomach’s sake.
And we can look through history and see where this absolutely no wine stance came from. It is not from the Bible. The verse you refer to warns against excess.
Europens developed didtillation andcheap ginbecame available to the poor in England. This led to many social problems.
John Wesley pteached against drinking distilled liquor but considered drinking a lottle wine good gor health, whoch he would regularly drink in small, modeate anounts if he were sick. Methodists and others they influenced raising social awareness about and opposing consumption of distilled liquor evolved into a stance against beer and wine in moderation.
And all this is biblically indefensible. Why would the Bible say deacons should not be given to much wine if drinking it was not allowed at all?
Varnel Watson
You actually have no Bible for any of what you just said
Varnel Watson
So what do we see from early pentecostalism? What can we glean from this? This egalitarian nature of the Azusa Street Mission allowed, in one part, many from different denominations to come into the doors and receive the baptism. On the other hand, you had acquiescence to political or social mores. When early pentecostals left the mission, they found themselves in positions like Lake, in compliance with the government. They often found themselves sometimes — like Charles H. Mason, who came to the mission as well — in direct defiance of the government because of their pacifistic beliefs. Mason was followed by the early FBI because of believing in pacifism.
What we can see from the core of the movement is a global focus. The things that concerned early pentecostals, whether it was economics, social or political concerns or this evangelistic thrust of xenoglossolalia, brought Azusa Street Mission people into contact with the rest of the world. This pentecostal experience that was not tendered into the denominational structure of strict organizational lines were able to mutate, proliferate and grow from the imaginations of those who thought of themselves as being this missing link to the upper room at Pentecost.
Jeanette Elizondo
Yes ! Total Abstinence !
Varnel Watson
AMEN
Anonymous
yes John Mushenhouse Dale M. Coulter Neil Steven Lawrence
Anonymous
I totally agree 💯
Anonymous
Abstinence is a good choice.
But alcoholic beverage is not strictly forbidden in Scripture.
We must also consider the difference between the fermented oinos of Christ’s day and today’s hard liquor.
Anonymous
Jared Cheshire Dan Anthony Jeffrey Snyder likey them fermented oninos
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs Neil Steven Lawrence Michael Chauncey
Anonymous
None for me, thanks, alcohol is toxic.
Anonymous
What about when your tithing? Scripture clearly permits it then.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs what about it? This OP is about drinking – DOES your BIBLE dont say the same?
Anonymous
Troy Day Deuteronomy 14:25-26 (KJV) 25 Then shalt thou turn [it] into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: 26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs no relevance – how about NT verses about drinking ?
Anonymous
Troy Day NT permits wine for medicinal, communion, weddings or ceremonies while at the same time forbidding drunkenness or any amount of alcohol that would cause one to not stay in a sober mind.
Elders, Deacons, and their wives should not be given over to wine.
Anonymous
once again, the drink Jesus made was not contaminated by the fall as every other drink was. This was of the same creative nature as was the Garden of Eden. Of course the Stewart said it was the best. God created it and it didn’t come from vines but from the Creator of all things good.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Presumption. Scripture doesn’t fit your point of view so you invent a way around it.
Anonymous
Ken Van Horn prove it by the bible and not because you and I differ. Don’t give me Kenyon and his followers eisegesis and fantasy please.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse More presumption! The only thing I ever read by Kenyon, I disagree with!
Anonymous
Ken Van Horn you went to Rhema and yet you have no clue to who mentored the Hagins and that whole word of faith heresy. It was Kenyon and Hagin even stole book titles from Kenyon. Please learn what you are talking about you before you post. Plus, you failed to prove where I assumed and not biblical. It appears to be true that you rhema folks only can repeat what you have been taught and can’t use the bible to defend your position. Now prove where i assumed. No Kenyon either as he was a metaphysical heretic.
Anonymous
Ken Van Horn I have no respect for the biblical foundation of any who went to Rhema. You lack discernment. You also just repeat that I assume as a broken record without any biblical proof where I assume. Now stop the games as you are not fooling anyone with your posts.
Anonymous
what is presumption Ken Van Horn DOES your BIBLE dont say the same?
Anonymous
Ken Van Horn like EW Kenyon? The wicked false prophet who made Ken Hagin twice the Son of hell that he himself was?
Anonymous
Kyle Williams OK We have a doctor-member of our group Paul L. King who has proven in his dissertation that the myth of Kenyon influencing anyone is just a myth AND the McConnell;s book has been disproved time and again
Anonymous
Troy Day do you actually believe that Hagin was a “Man of God”? Don’t pentecostals abominate the prosperity Gospel anymore?
Anonymous
Troy Day and God gave Hagin the JDS heresy and not Kenyon book. Plus Hagin, Copeland , Tilton all stole titles from him.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Kyle Williams I answered some here https://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/posts/5897965890258377/
Anonymous
Len Sterling why would not present your scriptural points but chose to blast people who you do not know on the internet? Do you not have any points from Scripture?
Anonymous
Troy Day I see that Ken Van Horn has the same agenda as Len Sterling.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse drink it away? Ken Van Horn
Anonymous
It is a really sad that so many word of faith devotees don’t know Hagin, Copeland and the rest of the word of faith heretical move don’t know Kenyon was the father of the movement and not “Dad” Hagin. Plenty of kool aid out there and plenty of drinkers.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse and what’s that?
Anonymous
Len Sterling present a verse or passage so we can discuss it – so far you just expressing your frustration and personal experience. Let’s talk BIBLE
Anonymous
Troy Day I appreciate the comment.
I initially replied to your post asking for the scriptural foundation you based the original post on.
All I have seen are references to other posts you’ve made that I have no way of knowing where they are.
Can you post or message me links to what you’re describing?
I did go in and read one link you’d posted, but did t see much biblical foundation in it…at least what I can see on my phone.
I’d really love to see what you have.
Now, if I had posted the original claim that real Christians don’t drink any alcohol then I would have provided some references.
When I get a chance, I will certainly go back and look. I’m wrapping up a 25 year career in healthcare and have quite a few competing priorities.
I’d debated this topic a lot of years ago and can say there’s much edification for all who can dialog.
In the meantime, if you can at the very least just throw some scriptures at me, I’d love to see.
Especially with your academic background, it would be great!
Much love brother!
Anonymous
Len Sterling my dear brother I would love to debate with you ANY verse of the BIBLE (canonical) HOWEVER I am not of the habit of posting during church when you tagged – simple reasoning, I do preach several times a week which makes it hard to text you back @ the same time. And when I do not preach I still like to listen to the preacher instead of texting
This said, I posted several verses in our discussion on Cana and my interpretation – which was very simple alike John Mushenhouse
In response to your request I posted this here article as well PLEASE browse through it as I agree with the authors on just about 90%
POST your verses in questions after reading it and LET’s talk…
Thank you!
Anonymous
Troy Day thanks brother!
Looking forward to taking a fresh look at the topic.
Anonymous
Len Sterling Brett Dobbs I have to agree with Michael Chauncey in this discussion on the danger of playing with toxic distilled SPIRITS and what Duane L Burgess said here
But alcoholic beverage is not strictly forbidden in Scripture.
We must also consider the difference between the fermented oinos of Christ’s day and today’s hard liquor.
I also read this comment in the stream and would like to address it
NT permits wine for medicinal, communion, weddings or ceremonies while at the same time forbidding drunkenness or any amount of alcohol that would cause one to not stay in a sober mind.
Elders, Deacons, and their wives should not be given over to wine.
There is MUCH to be desired in the exegesis used here John Mushenhouse I would rather look into the greek of this Tim. ref. but just for starters THERE IS NO double standard for Elders, Deacons, and their wives VS lay members – lay members are not permitted to be drunks and whoremongers THE NT RULE is simple
– you sleep with one woman on the side you are a whoremonger
– you drink 1 drunk you are a drunk
That simple
Now to the Tim.ref I love so much
This exception for the stomach by NT exegesis is limited to
1. only stomach ache
2. only if you were called Tim
3. only if you Paul wrote you personally
except if you can produce an actual NT document where Paul permitted you to do so and you are called Tim with stomach problems Philip Williams Ricky Grimsley this word is NOT for you – that simple. THERE is a reason for the law that forbids you to use someone elses personal prescription AND this here is Paul’s personal prescription to TIm – obviously not you AND then we have the word LITTLE as in little wine which is obviously not the amount of social drinking and/or the hard distilled spirit practiced by many churchmen today Neil Steven Lawrence
Anonymous
Troy Day so it’s okay for Tim to have a sip for his stomach issues. But if anyone else at that time had the same stomach issue then it’s tough luck for them. They’ll just have to suffer through it?
I do ask this. In 1 Corinthians 11:18-34 when Paul is condemning their behavior concerning the Lords supper. There was some being gluttonous and getting drunk off the communion drink. By doing this, they are dishonoring the Lords supper. Paul tells them to eat and drink at home. If they were getting drunk, why did Paul tell them to eat and drink at home? Why didn’t Paul say “eat at home” and then rebuke their drinking in a general sense?
Also, in a general sense of sinfulness, do you see gluttony and drunkenness in the same category of sin. You mentioned viewing adultery and drunkenness in the same category. Do you view gluttony in that same sense?
Anonymous
and I also agree there is a major difference in how wine was fermented back then compared to now. The natural fermentation was way less alcoholic compared to todays wine.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs it is NOT a sip As John Mushenhouse Duane L Burgess proposed the medical MIX that was used in those times cannot and should not be compared to today;s social drinking OR seen as permission to social drink. The 2 have nothing in common you see
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs is it NOT just fermenting
you are comparing fermenting VS distilled
as Duane L Burgess John Mushenhouse already showed Len Sterling
the fermenting occurs in nature perhaps even by GOD
distilling is part of the so called spirit farmakia
and Peter Vandever has exposed these spirits as occult
while William DeArteaga Isara Mo cast them out all day long…
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m not talking about distilling alcohol. I’m talking about fermenting wine. I’m referring to the fermentation process of today compared to back then.
For example back then when grape juice was stored it naturally fermented over time. And the alcohol content was probably around 5% by volume. And today they add sugar or whatever in order to increase the alcohol content in order for it to be above 10% by volume.
So that’s what I’m referring to when I say it wasn’t nearly as strong back then. And back then Jews would also mix wine with water which diluted it even more.
And I never claimed that socially drinking alcohol of any sort is acceptable.
But I still have the question as to why Paul didn’t condemn drinking wine at home in 1 Corinthians 11.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs OK you appear to know about modern day wine making about us much as I do – it is all chemistry nowadays you see
Anonymous
back to the GREEK in the article Brett Dobbs Len Sterling WHAT verse pls?
Anonymous
Troy Day
Good morning,
I have done a quick read of what you sent me in this post.
Let me research my way through the materials you sent already.
I’m questioning whether my view is correct or if perhaps it should shift.
Nice job brother in inspiring me to reflect rather than simply debate.
I may have some questions with the Greek as I go if you’re open to some advice in that realm.
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m not really sure if knowing the Greek in this case really makes a difference. Unless there is a single particular passage that your thinking of.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs of course Len Sterling just post the verses in question YES the Greek matters very much as John Mushenhouse already showed There are a number of interpreted passages in this article alone POINT to one we can start with
Anonymous
Troy Day perfect brother. Thank you.
Anonymous
Len Sterling yes virtually CANT wait for you to ask about a verse or 2 🙂
Anonymous
Troy Day with me, I like to outline everything the scriptures mention about a particular topic. For topics such as this I will look back at the original languages. Then see what they teach us.
I pray for wisdom and understanding from the Holy Spirit.
This method has served my understanding of scripture well. However I do recognize a potential weakness.
Since I have not yet had the opportunity to obtain education in Hebrew and Greek, I rely on inter linear bibles, Vines. Concordance, and Hebrew & Greek texts.
Although these are gray resources, I know it’s not quite the same as being able to read original languages with contextual understanding of both the text and customs of the times they were originally written.
I try to never hold a position on one or two scriptures in isolation…so that’s why I’m not posting one or two verses.
I’m blessed to have met you and others through this group because the Lord has shown me I have some things from these relationships we are building.
So yes, I’m interested in this topic quite intrinsically.
I do not live a life of drunkenness. The scriptures teach this is not a lifestyle of a believer in Christ…no debate necessary.
There are however foods that are just better with a beer or glass of wine.
Socially, out camping, sitting at a campfire with others and sharing a beer, I’ve had the opportunity to witness to countless people for hours at a time.
So, the question begs itself from this thread…is this ungodly…?
I have seen the Lord use this and definitely the presence of the Holy Spirit is unmistakable.
If I am however incorrect in this, I know the Holy Spirit will make it known to me through the scriptures and discussion with other believers who study.
Hopefully some of this makes sense.
Anonymous
Len Sterling LETs look back at the original languages – give us a verse
Anonymous
Troy Day
Here’s one brother.
Genesis 9:20 – 29.
Here Noah planted a vineyard. He drank to the point of getting drunk. This is clearly more consumption than a glass of wine with a meal as we are discussing.
Yet it seems the bad stuff happened to Ham not The one who got drunk from alcohol.
I know the scripture is relevant to more than one thing here, but what is the relevance in this passage to the topic of alcohol and believers?
I know it’s OT versus NT pre incarceration of Christ versus post, but is there meaning in the Hebrew here not apparent in the English translations?
Anonymous
Len Sterling OH brother Are you going to argue OT into the NT? John Mushenhouse Even Philip Williams knows that when Noah drunk wine then he stepped into much bigger sins with his sons etc. Lets talk NT
Anonymous
Troy Day can we ignore the OT scriptures on a topic ?
But okay, here’s a NT verse…
There’s still some relevance as Paul so nicely states in 2 Timothy 3: 16-17…translation of your choice… does the Greek in this passage of 2 Timothy say differently?
Anonymous
Len Sterling well we are NT believers
IF we count the OT for wine
would have to count it for temple worship and sacrifice as well
2 Timothy 3: 16-17 is GREAT
Paul referred to the Holy Writ which they had at that time
which was indeed OT – Paul and Tim did not have NT – we do
NOW you are welcome to start a topic about that and we will talk about it there BUT on this topic, what verses do you have that are pro-drinking
Neither I nor John Mushenhouse could think of a SINGLE NT verse that permits holy Ghost believers into drinking; Since weVE been waiting for some times now, perhaps by tonight a short list is in order
Anonymous
Troy Day yes, and I would add context here.
For the purpose of narrowing the topic, I’m in no way suggesting excessive alcohol consumption is okay for believers.
I’m limiting ‘drinking’ to a glass of wine, beer, or perhaps (for some) even a cocktail with a meal or in context of a social occasion such as a wedding, campfire, etc.
But Not to consume alcohol for the purpose of getting drunk. I’m confident we agree on that.
But still, if we sweep aside scriptural content and it’s context on a topic, simply because it’s OT versus NT…then brother, where are the boundaries for when that’s okay in one instance and not for another such as this topic?
Didn’t Jesus himself correct the religious teachers of His day with OT scriptures…?
Anonymous
Neither I nor John Mushenhouse could think of a SINGLE NT verse that permits holy Ghost believers into drinking;
Anonymous
There is no explicit command against alcoholic beverages in scripture. For the “church of God” to foist this extra- biblical standard upon their Membership is sinful and wicked. It’s ok to have an opinion, it’s not ok to make your opinion the conscience of another. Sinful and wicked
Anonymous
Kyle Williams from the plain text of the Bible, I can’t find a single passage that says drinking alcohol of itself is a sin. Drunkenness is. And this goes with the exception of those who are called to take a vow of a Nazarene. And or if it causes his brother to stumble.
Romans 14:14-23 (NKJV) 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that [there is] nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of [your] food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things [is] acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things [which make] for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed [are] pure, but [it is] evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 [It is] good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor [do anything] by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have [it] to yourself before God. Happy [is] he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because [he does] not [eat] from faith; for whatever [is] not from faith is sin.
Anonymous
The Bible has some positive and many bad things about alcohol.
It teaches moderation as a conscience issue, condemns a lifestyle of drunkenness, with abstinence being the better part of wisdom in our abusive potential culture (Daniel).
Early Pentecostals were given to legalism (which is not always sanctification), while modern ones too often compromise with license.
Loving obedience to biblical principles vs tradition is the way to go.
Anonymous
William Lance Huget that is why I won’t do anything which may cause my brother to stumble. I am have freedom, but as the word says not all things are helpful. I don’t see my drinking of alcohol helpful to the lost and hurting.
Anonymous
William Lance Huget what is the positive ?
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse fair principle to give up rights, but legalists also should not rob our conscience freedom leading to bondage to man.
Anonymous
Troy Day limited; there are verses that imply it is not all bad. Having a cultural glass of wine with dinner or safer beer than local drinking water is not tantamount to drunken sin.
Anonymous
William Lance Huget There are no legalists here ? WHAT conscience freedom has been robbed?
wine with dinner or safer beer
is the first step to hell
and this is not even from the BIBLE but AAA
any recovering alcoholic would tell you that
if it was safer it was gonna be step 13
and the cops wouldnt consider you drunk
Anonymous
Troy Day my father was alcoholic, but I am not.
Your view is one valid one, but what objectively is the generic biblical, balanced interpretive view and then we make personal applications based on principles.
Anonymous
William Lance Huget why also play the legalist card to try to justify things. I see it as love for others. As I am sure you know that the greek word agape as used especially in John 3 is a self sacrificing love. Too many want to indulge the flesh when Romans 12 tells us to die to self. We spend more time on wine than the import matter of mortifying the flesh. So few even consider that today.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse in the same conscience passages, Paul dealt with my point!
Anonymous
William Lance Huget show them and do you drink alcohol? If you do, can you tell me why?
Anonymous
Troy Day I am not sure, but you may be right about some just want an excuse to drink. This may not be the case here, but.
Anonymous
William Lance Huget they say it runs in the family just like a heart attack – hate to be projecting BUT this is what science tells us right?
Anonymous
William Lance Huget what exactly is your point?
John 3 or Rom 12
Anonymous
Troy Day Rom 12; I Cor.?
Anonymous
William Lance Huget OK what is your point from Rom 12 pls
Anonymous
I am dying of cancer. Look in a commentary
Anonymous
this is a PROPER exegetical take on the social drinking sin NO early Pentecostals were social drinkers or any drinkers. One who partakes is NO Pentecostal @ all TO THIS I Will add what John Mushenhouse rightly asserted concerning drinking beer and wine. Here is what Hannah considered one who drank it —
15 “Not so, my lord,” Hannah replied, “I am a woman who is deeply troubled. I have not been drinking wine or beer; I was pouring out my soul to the Lord. 16 Do not take your servant for a wicked woman; I have been praying here out of my great anguish and grief.” 1 Samuel 1
In the past a cliché for doing what you like was “if it feels good do it”. Today it has been changed in religious circles to “if it tastes good drink it”. In Hannah’s time it was a wicked person. Should we not be doing what Hannah did instead of drinking. That is doing Godly things. Just where are so many people at in their walk with the Lord.
Link Hudson placed a pretty silly response (which does not withhold proper Biblical exegesis) as following —
The Bible speaks against drunkenness, which is what Eli mistakenly attributed to Hannah. Wine is presented as a good thing from God, something He brings forth from the ground to make men’s hearts glad (Psalm 104:15.)
Priests in the Old Testament were not allowed to drink wine when they entered the yent of meeting, but Jesus said of the cup during the supper with His disciples ‘Drink ye all of it ‘
I myself am not a pastor of course everyone knows this well – this is just a false assumption based on someone’s emotionalism. The sin of Noah is not just drinking; I was asserting the heavy consequence of drinking as John Mushenhouse rightly explained. Link has admitted NOT being able to sign certain forms that require full abstinence from ANY alcohol beer and wine. He has also said many times about using real wine in Communion which is fine. Not sure from where all the drama toward my response BUT it is what it is – JOHN made it clear drunks are NO Christians I can only add the sippers with the dippers and the trippers Philip Williams
Anonymous
yes Link Hudson many here knows me well You are NOT discussing OP again but using every chance to personally attack someone which is good grounds for dismissal. You also make false allegation toward ppl you do not know – as a result of your social habits your exegesis on the wine topics gets sloppy John Mushenhouse already showed you that you do not rightly divide the WORD on this topic and on many others. Early Pentecostals did not drink – none of them. So your far reach to sell us some indonesian custom is not flying well here. You can drink since you like BUT dont force other ppl to believe with you it is the BIBLE – perhaps some silence here in place of your silliness and emotionalism
Anonymous
Deuteronomy 14:26 regarding the festival tithe
Anonymous
Karsten Wille meaning you are an OT believer or what?
Anonymous
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after: for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth; and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou and thine household. Deut 14:26
Anonymous
Karsten Wille you still do that daily or how does it work with your social drinking habit? Perhaps John Mushenhouse can exegete properly here
Anonymous
Troy Day well I agree that we should be thankful but where all things are lawful not all are beneficial. Karsten Deut 14 is giving the people a choice and it is saying be satisfied with your choice and not that it is good. Read the context. Karsten are you exchanging your tithe money for silver to buy what you want? 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice. — If not, why try to infer that it is ok to buy alcohol today. If you are going to go by the scriptures then do it all. I would also say that that scripture speaks of “new wine” aka unfermented grape juice. — we must stop the proof texting and see the what where when why how therefore of the text. I wonder if you did that or just produced a proof text. Again do you follow Deut 14 to the utmost or just the part you use to justify drinking. If you don’t follow it to its fullest, it is important to discuss why? Again God is saying be content with your choice and not that it was good. Read the whole bible in context with Deut 14.Remember “All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being. ” 1 cor 10. So what if my doing something causes another to fall as drinking may very well do? Is that seeking the good of others. Remember we must stop taking partial verses out of context just to fit our presuppositions and lifestyles.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Deut 14 is giving the people a choice if they lived in the OT before JESUS – the NT is explicit about social drinking “believers” A social sipping person can “tell” when they are drunk about as much as a demonized person can tell when they have a demon Joseph D. Absher has observed many such cases in the streets and knows well the details
Anonymous
Karsten Wille have you studied Romans 14 in connection to the possible result of your witness in drinking : 13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.— 20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[a] 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.[b]—- Does social drinking proceed from faith and if it doesn’t the bible says it is sin — Very plainly I might add
Anonymous
My ministerial and life’s goal _ 2 cor 6:3 We give no offense in anything, that our ministry may not be blamed. ——
Anonymous
Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1878806362504310&set=p.1878806362504310&type=3
Anonymous
It is this simple yet so hard when we live to satisfy our flesh– I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. gal 2:20 – this begs the question are you and your flesh crucified with Christ or are you living for your flesh. Has you made yourself a living sacrifice and have you renewed your mind — Romans 12:1-2 1I beseech[a] you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your [b]reasonable service. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. —– Have you performed this reasonable serice?
Anonymous
Troy Day yes Deut 14 gives a choice as the OT used choices to test the people.
Anonymous
Troy Day , Daily habit, no. Occasionally socially yes. In excess no. Offending the company I am with, also no. However, watching the firestorm the verse triggered has been quite amusing. I am not confident that most people commenting have not offended people at some point by eating meat, thus causing them to stumble though. The context of Deut. 14 is clear, in view of God calling his people to be both peculiar and Holy, in conjunction with the festivals they were celebrating. The language is clear, and how they celebrated with the levites and the poor, painfully obvious. We cannot, therefore, hold a complete line of abstinence. ‘Strong drink’, is not in line with weak fermented grape juice, neither were the Jews famed for watering down their wine (watering down wine was a Greek custom). As with most things moderation is advised, and keeping in mind the present company in order to prevent stumbling blocks. One thing however to keep in mind, is that there is a yawning gap between the Bible and historical acceptance of teachings of the church, of which being T total is one of them, usually within Pentecostal and some Baptist circles, especially in the US. A matter of fact, it is one of the 10 most debated questions people ask regarding Christianity. I devoted an entire chapter to the topic in this book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Investigating-biggest-Questions-Christianity-Karsten-ebook/dp/B08Y634V64/ref=sr_1_4?crid=27GS6ZDL33Z6C&keywords=Karsten+wille&qid=1683649516&sprefix=karsten+wille%2Caps%2C78&sr=8-4
Anonymous
Karsten Wille pls explain WHO decides the excess and how? Can John Mushenhouse trust that the person who is drinking would come to a point where they know it is too much?
Anonymous
Troy Day it is a mocker.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse yap wine is a mocker Link Hudson
Anonymous
Troy Day That was written to Israelites, descendants of those who had received the Law, which specifically allowed them (if they lived far) to purchase wine or strong drink to purchase with tithe money, and to drink where the LORD your God should choose. The warning is against misuse of alcohol. The same book says to give wine to him that perishes.
I Timothy 3:8 says that deacons are not to be given to much wine. Why say not given to much if a small amount is not allowed? Paul even encouraged Timothy to drink wine.
I Timothy 5
22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure.
23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.
I do wonder if Timothy had gone to the extreme of living a teetotaler lifestyle, with no wine at all in his diet, and if Paul were encouraging him to drink a little for heath reasons.
I would also challenge you to find any Christian who absolutely forbid the use of beverages with alcohol in them before John Wesley. John Wesley preached against the use of distilled liquors. Gin had come on the scene quite some time before his birth. Hard liquors were stronger than wine and beer. But John Wesley himself considered wine an excellent medicine because the scripture recommended it as such. So while he had some health issues, he drank wine daily, but refrained when he had recovered.
In the US, liquor abuse became a problem throughout the country and the frontier. There were women and Methodist-preacher led movements for temperance, which evolved into teetotalerism in some churches. You can also read newspaper clippings from around the turn of the 20th century about the controversy about some of the churches switching over to grape juice instead of ‘real wine’ after Welch developed his process.
When are you going to go full KJV on us? Shouldn’t you be consistent. If you are going to hold to ignorant Hillbilly theology on wine, shouldn’t you be a full-fledged KJV-onlyist also?
I also do not frequent the liquor store. I think I have probably drunk about two half glasses of beer in my life, when I realized the legalism I was raised in was just that, and I was curious. I have probably had the sum total of a few glasses of wine. I used in on an airplane when I had a sore throat and had to give a presentation when I landed and at other times when I had issues like that. I bought one bottle of alcohol during the Covid-19 lockdown when I could not find isopropyl on the shelves. We may have a few cans of beer for beer-batter for fish and a couple of bottles of wine for cooking. I don’t know how much alcohol I’ve had in cough syrup since childhood, but I try to avoid medicine unless I really feel bad.
I also partake of the Lord’s Supper without asking questions about what is in the wine as a condition of taking it. Some of the COG’s overseas put small amounts of ‘real wine’ in the mix. I think Yoido Full Gospel had a bit in theirs also.
So, I will pray, O Lord, look at your servants here, and if @Troy Day or John Mushenhouse wish to slander me or imply that I frequent liquor stores or that I am a social drinker, I ask you to remember the teachings of Hebrews, “For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.” and “Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.”
Anonymous
Link Hudson Link stop putting words in our mouths as your defense mechanism.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Where did I put words in your mouth? read what I wrote.
Anonymous
Link Hudson One thing I really liked about John Wesley was that he continued the Reformation and put the emphasis once more on biblical Holiness. We need that today. It is heart holiness and if my heart is with God, why do I need to give my broken heart strong drink. —
Anonymous
Link Hudson read the ending of your prior post.
Anonymous
Link Hudson you ask us to show those who didn’t drink before Wesley preached against it. So are you stating that two wrongs make a right instead of what scripture taches? I see Wesley as the continuing of the reformation from the sinful state of the church. Luther/ Calvin didn’t go far enough. Just like Wesley didn’t go far enough and so we needed a further reformation concerning the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse , I would like to point out that Luther’s daily ration of beer was 1 litre a day. Had it not been for his ministry we would still be stuck with smells and bells and paying indulgences for the purpose of salvation.
Anonymous
Troy Day This would imply that boundaries would need to be tested. This already implies the possibility of excess.
Anonymous
Clement of Alexandria (died c. 215) wrote in a chapter about drinking that he admired the young and the old who “abstain wholly from drink,” who adopt an austere life and “flee as far as possible from wine, shunning it as they would the danger of fire.” He strongly warned youth to “flee as far as possible” from it so as not to inflame their “wild impulses.” He said Christ did not teach affected by it —ON Drinking
Anonymous
Karsten Wille I wish you would just simply answer the questions asked of you instead of avoiding them by switching the subject. Is there a reason you won’t answer about your witness and the many other questions addressed to you.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse My witness? 300 new students and likely disciples, every year for 22 years sharing the unadulterated gospel.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse the idea that no alcohol is allowed (except for those on special cases) is nit a Biblical idea. It showed up late in history. It is more recent than pretrib. Try to find a pseudo-Ephraim for doctrinal teetotalerism before Methodism.
You might find Christians who completely abstained. I am talking about the theological position.
Paul taught salvation by faith way before the Reformation. But he did not mandate no consumption of alcohol and told Timothy to drink wine.
Anonymous
Link Hudson I didn’t disagree as I said just because others are doing it don’t make it right , but in the form of 2 wrongs don’t make a right. I also said Wesley continued the reformation. You must admit that it was still on-going as we needed a further reformation to return to the full ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse pseudo-Ephraim Link Hudson quotes is strongly PRE-trib. Glad to see the brother is finally getting with the schedule here HOWEVER no sippers dippers and trippers shall go in the Rapture
Anonymous
Troy Day Am I reading this right, not sure? Are you saying that particular extreme beliefs on alcohol consumption, and specific schools of thought on Baptism and eschatology are required for salvation? Correct me if I misunderstood, sipping, dipping and tripping.
Anonymous
Karsten Wille what do you think about the Biblical exegesis from the post?
Anonymous
Troy Day The apostles will go in the rapture, even though their beverages were different from yours. So will the early saints. The church in Corinth used real wine, apparently, yet Paul wrote to their church about being transformed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye?
I don’t know that the guy pretending to be Ephraim was a dispensationalist or not. I couldn’t find the quote in the longer document when I looked.
You can hold to ignorant country boy preacher religious slogans if you want to. I’ll stick with the scripture.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse our social fiends Link Hudson @karsten wille will have HARD time proving the CUP of the Communion refers to any alcoholic beverage. Just throwing this one out there for an actual Biblical exegesis if anyone is still interested
Anonymous
Troy Day i guess you can try tomato juice instead.
Anonymous
Link Hudson so do you have an actual BIBLICAL argument here? John Mushenhouse gave a pretty extensive exegesis from the actual BIBLE to be met with just an irrelevant drive-by comment by you
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse a tendency to regard things emotionally. : undue indulgence in or display of emotion. – how do ppl who partake sip dip and trip remain calm in online discussions? Impossible and it shows theyve been social sipping. Philip Williams must have been exposed to dipping @ one time or another being from NC
Anonymous
Troy Day you projecting emotions on your end.
Anonymous
Link Hudson NO not really – I spoke the BIBLE and in a pretty clear manner All you got left is little drive by comments which are irrelevant Once again you do not delve into the BIBLE but use this as a cheap shot to slander – speaks of character pretty clearly if you ask me or if you dont
Anonymous
Troy Day you describe your own frequently used tactics on this forum. Rarely do you post any of your on analysis, but plenty of drive by snide remarks with tagging. Be honest with yourself. Man gives account of every idle word.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Wine is presented as a good thing from God is the lie from hell if I’ve ever heard one John Digsby is pretty quite on this topic too
Anonymous
Troy Day well I won’t complain about his silence whatsoever.
Anonymous
Troy Day some topics arent worth my bother for the amount of flack i get.
wine alcoholic …. why bother?
wine grape juice…. yummy.
Anonymous
some questions just arent important questions.
Anonymous
John Digsby so you like to drink?
asking for John Mushenhouse
Anonymous
Troy Day now ya know why he is blocked.
Anonymous
John Digsby what do you think about the Biblical exegesis from the post?
Anonymous
Troy Day i really didnt read it. I just gave my point of view as ususal.
i dont think this area needs a BE
Anonymous
John Digsby yeah you should read it
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse we can conclude from the last dozen of comments under your proper exegesis that the social drunks camp got nothing to say. We know well they got nothing to say in defense of their habit because the BIBLE is explicit about drinking as the sin of Noah. So all they got left is their social club stance BUT no real theology FOR what real theology from the BIBLE would back the sin of Noah? HINT => none
Anonymous
Link Hudson John Mushenhouse what do you think about the Biblical exegesis from the post?
Anonymous
Troy Day I only saw the other article you posted from French.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Neil Steven Lawrence do yall feel Karsten Wille Link Hudson have a valid point citing the OT on this OP? I feel Paul discarded these OT laws. Furthermore, when you read the NT non-drinking is clearly a virtue of ppl who will enter heaven. I can only think of 2-3 examples involving JESUS but even they are context specific. For example one cannot take the very specific case with Timothy’s illness and apply it generally for the whole NT church. @ a conference last week someone said that because Timothy had a stomach ache, we are not given 100% healing – ppl say ALL sort of things that are NOT in the BIBLE – – – Also back in the day when we are talking about this OP a Jewish brother said the Shabbat Sedar Passover wine of the CUP of the new covenant was not alcoholic and westerners mistakenly conflated fermentation with leavening, which was proscribed – perhaps Robert Shepherd can clarify for us or even non-drinking Robert Dickinson
Anonymous
Troy Day Thank you Troy. I had not been tuned in. Judaism generally takes a very open view of alcohol, though modern Tel aviv is famous for its California style, vegans, non-alcoholics, gays, “granolas” so much so that even the old arab shuks are catering to these modern hippies. But traditional Judaism with its loveof the Bible is big on wine. Shabbes, Pesach, Purim. All the feast days, and usually (some Christians might know this) when Toireh mentions wine, it usually phrases it with a double joy, oneg ve simcha, is one of them. God’s command in Judaism is great joy, the double joy. Remember the two mountains? The blessings on mount Gerizim and the curses on mount Ebal. For Jews, God had a lesson. All of these curses would come upon them because they did not serve Adonoi our God with joy and much gladness of heart (simcha ve tov levav), for the abundance of all things (al kol eleh) . Rebbe Nachman me Uman took this literally, and began telling modern Jews, God commands you to be JOYFUL. He basically started a cult of “happy jews” (they wear the white kippot.)
Anonymous
Troy Day this does not make sense. Paul discarding OT laws…that allow drinking alcohol… creates a restriction on all dietary consumption of alcohol. The OT allows drinking milk. Do you think that is now forbidden?
Anonymous
Link Hudson was mil considered sin in the OT? what about milk-n-kid?
Anonymous
Robert Shepherd but was it real wine in Seder – Communion ?
Anonymous
Doesn’t have to be, the Shabbes phrasing is borei pru ha gafen. he creeates the fruit of the vine. “Communion” is a Christian thing. Drinking blood and all that. That part is sickening, and un-Jewish. Occasionally parents insist on non-alcoholic grape juice like Kedem for their small kids. No problem. As well as the “California style” Jews who are non-drinkers. Wine is a very Jewish thing, very biblical. And singing. While Jews themselves are often guilty, or stressed, tired, we are am echod. One people. Henei ma tov ma nayim shevet achim gam yachad. How pleasant and good when yidn get along as brothers. Kol Yisrael arevim zeh be zeh. Each Jew is responsible for every other Jew. May G-d bring it to pass in reality!!
Anonymous
Link Hudson With milk, (cheese, yoguert, keffir, cottage cheese) those fall under the kashus laws on Milchig, Fleishig and Pareve. Got to be a 6 hor interval, or 4 hour interval. Got to be separate. Over time, it got stricter, fence around Torah and all that.
Anonymous
Robert Shepherd Milk is not forbidden, just restricted when eaten with meat. Eating vegetarian with dairy all year except for Passover and other sacrifices would have been allowed. And those are extra-biblical kosher laws. The Old Testament forbade cooking a calf or kid in its own mother’s milk. Ashkenazi and Sephardi customs are different as far as the time intervals between meat and dairy meals are concerned, so I suspect they weren’t fixed in the first century.
But if Troy Day were to argue the OT allowing milk consumption meant it is forbidden today, wouldn’t that be akin to his recent comment on alcohol?
Anonymous
PROBLEM with drunks in church Robert Cox is that they just like to drink #ThatSit
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Link Hudson Historically, the Church of God has been committed to sanctification and holiness (uncompromised devotion to God) and has maintained that the Bible strongly prohibits the use of beer, wine, and liquors. An early doctrinal statement of the church’s teaching urges “total abstinence from all liquor and strong drink” (Church of God Evangel, August 15, 1910, p. 3). We, the credentialed ministers and lay members of the Church of God, must follow Biblical teaching and not consume beer, wine, liquor, or any alcoholic beverage. It is imperative that we practice total abstinence for the sake of others, for the sake of the Gospel, for the sake of ourselves, and for the sake of God’s glory. For these reasons and others, the Church of God came together in the 1948 General Assembly and, guided by the sole authority the Bible, that body of believers adopted the Statements of Faith, reaffirming its earlier stand on the doctrine of total abstinence from alcohol.
Because of the effects of drinking alcoholic beverages, the Bible is against drinking alcohol (Prov. 23:29-35). In fact, in the New Testament there appears to be a clear movement toward the rejection of the use of alcohol and for total abstinence. When Jesus instituted the Supper, he did not use the term “wine” (oinos). Rather he spoke of “the fruit of the vine” (Matt. 26:26-27; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:17-20). Furthermore, Paul speaks of “the cup” when referring to the beverage used in the Supper (1 Cor. 10:16, 21; 11:23-28). The point is, it is very significant that there is no reference in Scripture to wine in connection with the Lord’s Supper.
Paul establishes spiritual requirements for those holding office in the Church of our Lord. He instructs the church leaders, whether pastors (1 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 1:7) or deacons (1 Tim. 3:8,) regarding the consumption of alcohol to be “blameless,” strongly implying total abstinence is the Biblical standard.
Another argument against moderate drinking and for total abstinence is that the New Testament calls Christians to sobriety (napho 1 Thess. 5:1-11; 2 Tim. 4:5; 1 Pet. 1:13; 4:7) and
temperance (naphalios, 1 Tim. 3:2, 11; Titus 2:2). (Otto Baurfeind, napho, naphalios, enapho, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. 4, trans. by Geoffrey Bromiley). Though these passages do not refer only to alcohol as causing impairment, they certainly include it.
We should remember that Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach (1 Tim. 5:23). This advice Paul gave could well indicate that Timothy practiced total abstinence. If Timothy drank wine, even in moderation, there would have been no need for Paul to instruct him to use some wine for health purposes.
Anonymous
Troy Day it is ridiculous to argue that blameless means total abstinence from alcohol when Paul told Timothy to drink wine for his stomach’s sake. This would have rendered Timothy not blameless if drinking alcohol is evil.
Anonymous
Troy Day , Then why is Paul advising Timothy to do so? Important to note that drinking wine was a usual custom, due to the dangers of drinking local water.
Anonymous
Link Hudson the claim is made by one of your own cog theologians based on your own cog declaration of faith Appears to be requirement for members as well Melvin Harter Neil Steven Lawrence can elaborate Just read the very deep exegetical article in the post
Anonymous
Karsten Wille that claim is funny John Mushenhouse The wine mixed with water was highly diluted and less alcoholic than daily nyquil
Anonymous
I attend a COG. Do you believe Pentecostal denominations’ doctrinal statements should be a part of the Bible.
You can compile a list of wise edifying things Pentecostal preachers have said. You could compile a list of ignorant and foolish things Pentecostal preachers have said. We should believe what the Bible teaches.
Anonymous
Troy Day , This is a Greek practice not a Jewish one, and at the rate the discussion is going, we would be placing Martin Luther in Hell. The self righteousness linked to abstinence is not going down to well – excuse the pun.
Anonymous
its once again FUNNY John Mushenhouse Neil Steven Lawrence that Link Hudson Karsten Wille bypassed the strong BIBLICAL arguments and only attacked the logical argument from the article
since it is a medical advice they can fill up their stomach with wine ONLY if they are sick in the stomach with the same type of stomach ache – otherwise even the exegetical take on the that ONE verse does not allow them do social drink – has nothing to do with social drinking one little bit
the logical argument of this lead cog theologian however stands – if little wine was already allowed WHY would Paul have to allow Timothy again to drink little wine MAKES NO sense – the only logical explanation is that Timothy did not drink ANY wine as a requirement to NT ministers and Paul allows little as medicine. We could also add the actual Greek to all this but given the audience it may turn to be much
Anonymous
Troy Day sounds like a good point, but as modern research shows grape juice is also healthy. So we are back to guesswork.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse its funny how social drinkers would twist the BIBLE to get their thing in Just like lots of gay theologians do the same thing https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/04/health/alcohol-health-effects.html
Anonymous
Troy Day Paul did not say just to drink winebif you are sick. Another application of this is to drink wine to prevent stomach ailments. It doesn’t say how Timothy was to apply it.
Wine mixed with water for 25 hours can kill pathogens. There was an ancient practice…still followed by some today…if mixing several parts wine with one part water. The legal cult of Judaism allowed seceral parts water mixed with Passover wine. The children also drank four cups.
If Timothy was abstaining from wine to be extra ‘pure’, but not in a way that was necessary for yrie purity or h ill liness, and was drinking bad water, wine could have helped with that. Regular preventative consumption makes sense.
Heavy drinking may contribute to uclcers. This website suggests modest consumption of wine might help prevent them. https://www.winespectator.com/articles/health-q-a-can-i-still-drink-wine-if-i-have-stomach-ulcers
I am curious if John Mushenhouse can provide a link to show grape juice might help with ulcers to back up a previous assertion about health benefits.
Grape juice may have similar or the same heart-health benefits. But Timothy was to drink wine for his stomach’s sake. And Welch’s invented his procedure in tge 1800s. The ancients made wine as a means of preserving the frape harvest.
Anonymous
Link not to duck your questions, but I have given you scripture in context with the whole bible. You refuse to read it or perhaps you don’t understand as you either want to defend your drinking or you just like to argue. Saying that, I have other passages to exegete. Go ahead and drink if you are heavy hearted, but I would recommend reading the word after praying for understanding. I am not saying just on alcohol but on daily holy living and trusting God to deliver us and to make our heart joyful. He is more than the giver of a few gifts in 1 Cor. He is life and more abundant life.
Anonymous
The alcoholic commits suicide on the installment plan.
Vance Havner
Anonymous
https://alcohol.org/alcoholism/alcohol-suicide/
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse , Linking alcohol automatically to alcoholic is the extremity I find difficult to counter.
Anonymous
Karsten Wille you still lack the grace to answer and are reduced to subject changing. What about your witness to others and the other questions which you are too cowardly to answer.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse , John, which question? Is calling someone a ‘coward’, full of grace? What did I not answer?
Anonymous
Karsten Wille it is truthful and that is gracious. I asked many questions directed to you. It is in this thread. Since you know so much for grace, is this gracious and please comment on it . Jesus said in Matthew 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. — Which lacks grace you being called a coward or being called twice the son of hell. Will you have the integrity and courage to answer this.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse , John, please explain the link with alcohol in Matt 23:15. What is it you would like me to answer?
Anonymous
Karsten Wille you are not that helpless or maybe you are- just look and see the posts where I put your name in. it is under the bell 3rd dot from the right. Stop these games and why did you nort answer my last question. Are you just a game playing in these rooms.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Game playing? Where is the link with alcohol in the verse you quoted Matt 23:15? You quoted this verse, I am asking you directly what your argument is? I am not the one ducking and diving here!
Anonymous
Karsten Wille you can easily find it – just see all the posts where I mentioned you and I know for a fact that I said is Matt 23:15 gracious. Has your drinking so ruined your ability to think. If it has, don’t come into a theology room trying to get approval for your drinking.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse , I think your assumptions about me may be the same assumptions you make in Biblical texts to suit your extreme school of thought that has no basis in fact. I do not feel the need for further discussion, neither for insults.
Anonymous
Karsten Wille No you play games. Have a good day.
Anonymous
I am struggling with the notion that some believe that drinking alcohol is just an OT practice. As if Jesus’ death and resurrection encouraged believers to take a Nazirite vow of abstinence. This is the case for John the Baptist, but let me pull this out of Matt 11:18-19 Old King James ‘ For John came neither eating and drinking, and they say, he hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of public and and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children’. ( The NIV uses the word ‘drunkard’. Strange term for something allegedly just grape juice)
Anonymous
The article had some arguments that didn’t hold water, and some were internally inconsistent. I’ll quote with “>>” in vintage Internet style.
>>>
In his inspired wisdom, Paul establishes spiritual requirements for those holding office in the Church of our Lord. He instructs the church leaders, whether pastors (1 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 1:7) or deacons (1 Tim. 3:8,) regarding the consumption of alcohol to be “blameless,” strongly implying total abstinence is the Biblical standard.<<< This is a non sequitur. Since 'not given to much wine' is a requirement for deacons, it does not follow logically that drinking small amounts of wine would have rendered a deacon not blameless. Paul also told the reader of one of these epistles not to drink only water, but to drink wine for his stomach's sake. >>>Therefore, such passages should not be interpreted to allow church leaders to drink alcoholic beverages in moderation. In Paul’s day, wine was one of the safest liquids to drink. At that time, people often suffered from parasites and other health ailments because of drinking contaminated water. Wine was a mixed drink with several parts of it water, and therefore different from the wine consumed today.<<< Our brother is all over the place here with his argument. On the one hand, Paul wanted leaders to abstain from wine completely to be not blameless, but on the other Paul said to drink some wine. And since they drank wine mixed with water back then, leaders shouldn't drink it with moderation? He is not making a consistent and coherent argument. And I am pretty sure people still drink wine mixed with water today. I have heard of modern Italian farmers who work in the fields drinking a wine and water mixture in modern times. I've seen someone mix wine wiht water. As far as alcohol content goes, a one glass of wine is the same amount of alcohol as four glasses of one fourth wine mixed with three fourths wather. If mixing wine with water was common in the ancient world, that doesn't prove that unmixed wine wasn't wine or 'oinos.' >>>In America today, there is no need for alcoholic beverages to be used for health purposes. In ancient times, the drinking of wine was a safety measure.<<< This is kind of like the argument that the reason the early church used wine for communion instead of Coca-cola was because Coca-cola hadn't been invented yet. So now there is no reason to use wine, since we have Coca-cola! It's taking some set of presuppositions early Christians didn't have... that Coca-cola should be used instead of wine, or in his case that there is something wrong with moderate consumption of alcohol, and reinterpreting scripture with that unjustified presupposition. >>>We should remember that Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach (1 Tim. 5:23). This advice Paul gave could well indicate that Timothy practiced total abstinence. If Timothy drank wine, even in moderation, there would have been no need for Paul to instruct him to use some wine for health purposes.<<< Timothy just might have been practicing total abstinance from wine with alcohol in it, doing more/other than was required for Paul's instruction, 'Keep yourself pure.' Paul apparently did not like Timothy's total abstinence and told him to drink a little wine for his stomach's sake. If Timothy were to mix some wine into his water and let it sit, that could kill pathogens. Maybe Paul wanted him to take it as a 'medicine'... as opposed to dietery consumption for health reasons, but doesn't the latter make more sense considering wine's benefit as a germ killer in water? We should also realize drinking wine, however it was diluted, was a normal thing back then. There are warnings against excess. The Bible also >>>Since wine was readily available, it is understandable why it was used for medicine. In the first century, the alcohol content of wine was typically about two to six percent.<<< How did he get alcohol measurements of first century wines? A Google search can find some low alcohol content wines today. If they drank that back then, what is wrong with drinking low alcohol content wines today, or mixing them with water? Can't a believer drink what Paul told Timothy to drink without sinning? >>>He said, “For John came neither eating nor drinking and they (the Pharisees) say, ‘He has a demon!’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard’” (Matt. 11:18-19). He did not offer an apology for His behavior. He had done nothing for which to apologize.<<< Of course he did not. What does one eat if eating moderately? If false accusers want to exaggerate, they can accuse him of gluttony. If he weren't drinking wine at all, why would they call him a wine drinker? If the food part were an exageration, why wouldn't the wine part be an exaggeration. >>We cannot be certain that what Jesus created had alcoholic content.<<< There is no reason for it to be an issue. If Jesus made wine with alcohol in it, why would that be a problem? Why would the original readers see it as an issue? It's just those who hold to the idea that teetotalerism is required... a theological position developed in the 1800's reinforced by the technological innovation of Welch's grape juice and switching out 'real wine' with Welch's style grape juice in the early 20th century that see a problem here. >>>The headmaster of the feast was impressed with what Jesus produced, declaring, “Every man serves the good wine first and when men have drunk freely, then that which is poorer; but you have kept the good wine until now” (2:10).<<< He said after the men were drunk, they brought out the poorer wine. So 'real wine' was used in weddings back then. >> His comment was probably on how good the wine tasted, that is, its quality, not on the alcoholic content.
The primary purpose of the miracle was to manifest Jesus’ glory (v. 11). To say that the Son of God showed forth his glory by producing gallons of intoxicating wine seems to gofar off base. The miracle manifested Christ’s sovereignty over the natural world and his power to transform the lives of people.
There is no proof that Jesus ever drank alcohol. Sound interpretation of Holy Scripture avoids promoting a practice based on silence.
According to the Lord Jesus, people preferred old wine.
Luke 5:39
No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
>>>
Because of the effects of drinking alcoholic beverages, the Bible is against drinking alcohol (Prov. 23:29-35).<<< That is false. Read the verse. We shouldn't long for wine the way it is described in this passage. No doubt there were drunks back then. Deuteronomy 14 specifically allows for 'drinking wine' and 'strong drink.' 26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Anonymous
Link Hudson the article is written by one of the greatest theologians cog has ever produced. And is regarded as standard for ALL cog members – anyone claiming any different is simply not cog nor Pentecostal and missionaries Neil Steven Lawrence Tommy Smith can confirm to that rule of faith in their cog
Anonymous
Troy Day So?
Anonymous
Link Hudson A cog member cannot be drinking or shall be discarded. Claiming cog membership while drinking is just not realistic – VR reality
Anonymous
Troy Day Whose claiming COG (Cleveland) membership, and who is doing so while drinking? We are talking about whether the Bible allows for drinking, not denominational rules.
You seem to bound by the traditions of men, to strongly allied to some ideal of Pentecostal tradition, rather than the word of God, on so many issues.
What do you say when you present what the Bible and someone else quotes the Westminster confession to counter what you said? It seems kind of dumb doesn’t it?
Anonymous
Link Hudson you have claimed consistently and even advertised your affiliating with GBT India since before they were cog. Now that they are amalgamated adhering to their doctrine is a requirement #SimpleTruth
Anonymous
Link Hudson French Arrington is very respected especially in biblical languages, systematic theology and exegetical work. What think ye Troy Day Tony Richie and other CoG members.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Good for him. Ideas stand on my own merit. I pointed out flaws in his ideas.
He did a decent job of trying to cobble together some kind of argument for a Biblically indefensible stance… in places. The part about needing to abstain to be blameless, arguing that Timothy was abstaining, and then pointing out that Paul told Timothy not to… that didn’t make much sense. If one can not be given to ___much___ wine and be blameless, that is not a good case that one has to abstain totally to be blameless.
It’s a ridiculous point of view, made to prop up traditions of men, a tradition that’s less than 200 years old. Teetotalerism as a doctrinal stance goes back to the 1800’s. It was helped along by a technological innovation that allowed totally unfermented grape juice in communion. That transition from wine to grape juice was controversial, discussed in newspapers in the early 1900’s. I’ve seen some of the articles.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I am not cog but Dale M. Coulter may also know quite a bit on ArringtonS latest work – My work with Arrington was on the Full Life Study Bible – I think they call it FIRE Bible now where he contributed enormous commentary on ACTS and 1 Cor. – very deep theologically. This paper from the post is deeply exegetical and I strongly doubt any one within cog right now can do any better than him on the topic – perhaps Link Hudson if he is still cog of course – Who knows?
Anonymous
Link Hudson it is not just HIS ideas – this is a paper adopted by cog as a positional paper and cog affiliates must adhere to these requirements
Anonymous
Troy Day I have several of his commentaries. I really enjoyed his 3 vol. Systematic Theology. It was a well written tool much needed for those just starting to build their theological foundation. It was packed with scripture and good insights.
Anonymous
Troy Day You can address my response do it if you want to. I am not an unthinking drone who accepts the idea that there are five lights, when there are four.
Anonymous
👍
Anonymous
Part 2
>>>In fact, in the New Testament there appears to be a clear movement toward the rejection of the use of alcohol and for total abstinence. Such a movement is known as the “Biblical process.” For example, in the New Testament we can see the significance of the Biblical process in reference to the actual drink used in the Lord’s Supper. When Jesus instituted the Supper, he did not use the term “wine” (oinos). Rather he spoke of “the fruit of the vine” (Matt. 26:26-27; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:17-20). Furthermore, Paul speaks of “the cup” when referring to the beverage used in the Supper (1 Cor. 10:16, 21; 11:23-28). The point is, it is very significant that there is no reference in Scripture to wine in connection with the Lord’s Supper. Does this suggest something about Jesus’ and Paul’s attitude regarding strong drink?<< This argument is ridiculous. Whatever the fruit of the vine the Corinthians were using in the cup, it was possible to get drunk off of it. Paul rebuked them with 'one man is hungry, and another is drunken.' But he did not forbid the use of 'real wine.' Pharisaical traditional had Jews drinking 'real wine' for Passover. >>Some argue that there are health benefits in wine. Researchers from Harvard Medical School report that wine has anti-aging proprieties; but rather than being from the alcoholic content, the anti-aging proprieties are the resveratrol in the red skins of the grapes (www.google.com/health+benefits+of=wine+). << And maybe you can get that from grape juice, but does grape juice in moderation have the ability to potentially prevent ulcers? What about disinfection wine if mixed with water and left for 24 hours or so? I have read that the alcohol in wine can do that. What is sugar in grape juice going to do for pathogens...feed them? And if the Bible suggests wine as either medicine or a health tonic, shouldn't one prefer that over some weird medicine with a 30-foot-long name that we cannot pronounce which is derived from motor oil?
Anonymous
Link Hudson GOOGLE.COM
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 and actually very irrelevant. John Mushenhouse pointed us to a biblical exegesis that in some ways is a merit to cog membership. Anyone who claims cog membership cannot drink wine beer etc. This is the important part of the discussion backed by the BIBLE – Paul establishes spiritual requirements for anyone who is a minister. The early church regarded ALL people as ministers – there is no clergy laity separation. Furthermore, the non-drinking rule in cog is required from both clergy and laity so its pretty clear. My honest take on this is that if ppl want to sin drinking this is their own prerogative and responsibly. BUT pls dont tell us that GOD told you to do it or the BIBLE allows for it because both are but plain lies
Anonymous
Troy Day Stop the gaslighting. John Mushenhouse took verses out of context, leaving out the part where Hana was accused of being drunk, and tried to present it as if she were saying just drinking certain alcoholic beverages would make her a wicked woman. Also, he was trying to make wine out to be cursed, when the Bible does not teach that. Arguments can get weird and stretchy when the Bible doesn’t support the conclusion one tries to reach.
Of course the Bible allows for drinking wine. Paul told Timothy to keep himself pure, to not drink only water, but to drink wine for his stomach’s sake. Haven’t you read the Bible before? Did you read the article you posted? God had the Israelites by wine or strong drink if they desired it, with their tithes, if they lived far from the place that He would choose. It was clearly allowed. There are warnings against longing after wine and such. There are also warning against gluttony.
Don’t you feel that twinge of embarrassment when you defend Biblically indefensible positions.
One COG pastor told me the COG stance on alcohol was ‘Biblically indefensible’, but he abided by the practical commitments as a COG preacher. Insisting their our five lights when there are only four is not required for COG ordination.
Someone who claims COG membership could shoot someone else in the street. COG membership doesn’t stop anything. They don’t do breathilizers at the door, either. I haven’t heard of any rules requiring being a teetotaler to attend.
And I have also pointed out that I am not a social drinker. The stuff tastes nasty. I will take cough medicine that has alcohol in it. Do you? I’ve used wine for that when I was on a plane and didn’t have access to cough medicine. We use wine for cooking around here, but the alcohol cooks out, and we might have a Japanese sauce in the cabinet. I have probably consumed much less alcohol than some of the judgey condemning legalists among the Pentecostals who like to throw accusations when they have no scripture to support their judgmental stance.
The concern I see with a lot of Pentecostals over this is that some of them judge believers and unbelievers who aren’t sinning for violating their man-made ‘hedge about the Torah’.
Anonymous
Link Hudson prove it – so far you have had little, if any exegesis. Plus you just go on and on. As I told you before. I gave you good exegesis and you didn’t believe it because it wasn’t in your comfort zone.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse You posted some nonsense when it came to alcohol. You posted some good things I agree with about the creation in general. But your speculative doctrine about wine being cursed was just that, speculation, not good exegesis. And your OP on Hannah left out the fact that she was being accused of drunkennes. That is relevant because God allowed drinking wine and strong drink, and even told Israelites to use tithe money to buy it to drink in the place He would choose if they lived far away.
Anonymous
Link Hudson according to you and that is subjective. Have a nice night. 🙂😃😀
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse he claimed being cog but now he is not Pentecostal
Anonymous
Troy Day Show me the post. Isaid I attend a COG, and I have in Indonesia. I don’t recall mentioning specific church membership etc. to you or on this forum.
I am also not a social drinker. I don’t get the appreciation for the flavor. It’s probably like chilli pepper. You have to eat it for a while before you can appreciate the flavor. I’m not there. But I will partake of wine in communion. I’m pretty sure they put some in Pentecostal communion I’ve had in both South Korea and Indonesia. That’s ironic because there are Presbyterians that preach teetotalerism in South Korea, or were when I was there. It’s considered a sin to drink from the churches, and almost a social sin not to if others are doing it. I abstained and I could feel the pressure from others as I did not conform to the norms. But I think there was a bit of alcohol in Yoido Full Gospel’s (‘the largest church in the world’s) communion. And I think there was some ‘real wine’ from Israel in some COG communion in Indonesia.
I don’t know if they have a set of practical commitments that ban drinking in Indonesia. Drinking does not seem to be a big part of life for most there since it is Islamic culture. There are tuak stands in Jakarta. I don’t recall seeing public drunkennes in my years there. In my one year in Korea I sure did.
I’ve never heard Pentecostals in Indonesia preach in a way to imply that all drinking is a sin like I’ve heard in the US. I don’t know if I’ve even heard a sermon against drinking. I haven’t witnessed Pentecostals drinking alcohol there that I know of except for communion wine.
Probably the most famous COG attendee in Indonesia was convicted of shooting someone a few months back. I don’t know if he was a member. It was an awful thing. He was the head of internal affairs for the national police.
Anonymous
Link Hudson you may not recall as you rarely recall. You said you attended cog where the pastor told you pre-trib or entire sanctification was not a cog thing anymore – search your own posts to be reminded – I love chilli pepper The Bible says nothing about having too much spice but it does speak against social drinking as in the case with Timothy
Anonymous
Troy Day You do not recall correctly, as is also the case. I may have said I heard a COG pastor present the declaration of faith. And I may have pointed out that the wording does not require one-time zap sanctification, and the wording on eschatology is fuzzy enough to accommodate a few views. Another pastor online thought it fit better with post-trib, which was his position. Not that the pastor of the COG I heard live said these things.
Where does the case of Timothy say anything about social drinking? The issue is moderation. Excess of wine is forbidden for deacons.
You also wrote,
>>>Paul establishes spiritual requirements for anyone who is a minister. The early church regarded ALL people as ministers – there is no clergy laity separation<<< The 'clergy/laity' distinction is not in the Bible. The term 'clergy' isn't used, to mean what clergy means now. But there were standards for specific roles that not all believers filled, laid out, including overseers and deacons. But if deacons are allowed to drink wine, just not much wine, why wouldn't regular people be allowed to drink. If Paul told believers not to be drunk with wine, wouldn't that be a bit negligent if just a social sip would keep them from the rapture? If you'd let go of this weird idea that Pentecostal tradition has to be right, no matter how strange and strained of an argument you have to make that it is Biblical in some areas, I think you'd be a lot better off. Don't you feel embarrassed arguing for such an indefensible position/
Anonymous
Link Hudson on another post on social wine as your interest you posted:
I’m pretty sure I’ve had trace amounts of alcohol in communion at a GBI in Indonesia
I suppose you did not attended there but simply traced amounts of alcohol
Who knows? You are making less and less sense to me every single day https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/pentecostals-who-deny-the-initial-physical-evidence-of-the-infillingbaptism-of-the-holy-ghost-of-speaking-in-tongues-as-the-spirit-gives-the-utterance/
Anonymous
on another occasion you posted
Steve Losee I went to a GBI Bethany meeting in the 1990s. They were hosting Roberts Liardon
Anonymous
here you said – I went to a US COG in high school.
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/timeline-explaining-3-days-nights-easter-passover/
Anonymous
and here
I have spent maybe 2 years in GBIs in Indonesia, which is affiliated with the COG (Cleveland)
the list goes on
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/are-there-apostles-today-what-virtually-every-pentecostal-denomination-believes-about-apostolic-ministry-in-the-21st-century/
Anonymous
and here
in Indonesia, I was in a GBI, which was affiliated with COG (Cleveland) in the US.
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/?p=67144
Anonymous
I have been around Charismatics (some in the COG denomination of GBI in Indonesia) https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/spiritual-mapping-and-strategic-level-spiritual-warfare-slsw/
I was an ‘aktivis’ at a GBI in Indonesia for about a year and I have preached in GBIs
I have attended COG and GBI (Indonesian version of COG) in the past, and I haved preached in GBIs on occasion.
I am part of the church of God in the Bible. I’ve attended regularly a couple of them in the past if you count GBIs in Indonesia.
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-french-l-arrington-the-bible-and-alcoholic-beverages-beer-wine-liquors-and-total-abstinence/
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m sorry to hear it. Hopefully God has healed & cleansed your heart from that experience.
Anonymous
Steve Losee therse were quotes by Link Hudson Hopefully God has healed & cleansed his heart from that experience.
Anonymous
Troy Day OH, sorry. It looked like you were speaking for yourself there.
Anonymous
Steve Losee OK this would be the day when I do not claim Pentecostal affiliation or Pentecostal theology 🙂 or missional orientation per se
Anonymous
yes Ricky Grimsley Neil Steven Lawrence Melvin Harter Tommy Smith Link Hudson
Anonymous
Very good read
Anonymous
Jose Salinas it is INDEED now Philip Williams does NO social drinking but there are some in the group that practice and hide it quite well. The BIBLE says NO!
Anonymous
Troy Day that is true. Some say a little buzz ain’t wrong
Anonymous
Gottfried Sommer Is the devil’s ability to deceive greater than God’s ability to enlighten?
Anonymous
“He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for people to cultivate— bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladdens human hearts, oil to make their faces shine, and bread that sustains their hearts.” Psalm 104:14-15
It says God made wine to make our heart glad. What do you think that means?
Anonymous
OT quote – NOT valid for NT believers There is NOT a single verse in the NT allowing drinking Neil Steven Lawrence Duane L Burgess even the one about Timothy refers to ppl with sick stomach or bad waters neither of which is Ben Bottke
Anonymous
this is a TRUE Bible teaching Ben Bottke Link Hudson Brett Dobbs Ricky Grimsley
Anonymous
Troy Day That’s called specious reasoning. For example, this,
“Emphasizing this teaching, the Church of God Practical Commitments reminds us of our liberty in Christ (John 8:32, 36; Rom. 6:14; 8:2 NKJV) and counseled us not to put ourselves under bondage (Gal. 5:1). “Therefore, a Christian must totally abstain from all alcoholic beverages and other habit-forming and mood-altering chemical substances . .”
What about tea? Does that alter your mood? How about sugar? If you are hungry that can alter your mood. So can protein or any carbohydrate.
The thing is, first century Jews and Gentiles wouldn’t have put blame on Christians for moderate consumption of alcohol. ‘Real wine’ was used in communion, as evidenced by the fact that if it was drunk to excess, Paul expressed his concern that ‘one man is hungry and another is drunken.’ That tells us what type of beverage they have in mind.
Also, the fact that deacons were not to be given to much wine indicates that moderation was acceptable.
The fact that the governor of the feast said that they usually brought out the poorer quality wine after the men were drunk indicates that wine drunk at weddings was ‘the real thing.’
Did Paul tell Timothy to drink grape juice for his stomach’s sake? From what I have read, they used to water down wine with so many parts water. It was a way of preserving the calories and some of the nutrition from the grape harvest. If you mix a bit of wine with water and wait 24 hours, it will kill bacteria, according to an article I read. What is the benefit to the stomach of mixing unfermented Welch’s grape juice and water? How did they keep their Welch’s from getting fermented if they didn’t have refrigeration/
Look at Matthew 11:19,
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
If Jesus did not drink any alcohol at all, only grape juice, that would have been quite odd, and He probably would have had a reputation for being the only adult tee-totaler in the country who wasn’t under a Nazarite vow. Why would they have exaggerated and have accused him of the opposite behavior?
If we are honest with ourselves and we read the Bible, it is absolutely ridiculous to think that early Christians were all teetotalers.
I Timothy 3:8
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not being given to much wine, not greedy of dishonest gain,
You can drink Welch’s grape juice all day without getting drunk. Why would Paul write about deacons not being given to much Welch’s grape juice? How much Welch’s is too much for a deacon to drink?
If it is talking about ____wine____, the type of stuff they would have drunk back then for most of the year after a little bit of time had past since harvest, then it is obvious Paul doesn’t want them having a problem with alcohol. Paul says ‘be not drunk with wine, which is to excess.’ He does not say, “Thou shalt not drink wine.”
Where this becomes an issue is that we know that Christ left us with two important practices to follow– baptism and the Lord’s Supper. And from scripture we know that they used a beverage that had alcohol in it, and that it was the ‘fruit of the vine’, and from tradition and history we know that it was the custom to drink wine during that time.
Jesus said, “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses seat.” To make wine kosher, they made sure it was fully fermented and they sloughed off the dead yeast, so it would have no yeast during the Passover season. And they also, during that general time period, may have allowed the wine to be watered down with so many parts water since children drank Passover wine also.
Now assuming they did drink it watered down, maybe the Passover supper could have been less than the equivalent of one glasses worth of wine these days for alcohol content, or more if they did not water it down.
The reason this is treated as a sin issue is because of legalism and tradition, and teachers passing down traditions that give people a weak conscience on the issue. But the brazen ignorance in face of the evidence is upsetting, especially when you encounter the judgmental types who want to throw proverbial stones at the unbeliever or Presbyterian who wants to drink one single small sized craft beer after work or someone who drinks one half glass of wine with dinner.
Anonymous
Link Hudson NOT sure HOW Church of God Practical Commitments reminds us of our liberty in Christ (John 8:32, 36; Rom. 6:14; 8:2 NKJV) connects here or why cog is using NKVJ but its good you are finally reading them after all these years claiming to be cog but never read
Anonymous
Troy Day quote where I made that claim.
Anonymous
Link Hudson copy pasted from the FIRST line of your comment and wondered HOW you connected it but its good you are finally reading them after all these years claiming to be cog
Anonymous
Link Hudson if you refer to cog you’ve said multiple times going to cog Indonesia and being all Pentecostal and all Then in your new location in GA where you attended cog where the pastor told you you dont have to agree with doctrine whatever THOUGH – cog requires adherence to doctrine just like AG does but you only know this if you grew up in cog spiritually – that you deny belongingness to the churches your attend speaks volumes of your commitment and faith both – and it shows in your words and acts Sad but true !
Anonymous
Troy Day I belong to the church/assmbly of God in the Biblical sense. You should be well aware that attending a Pentecostal church doesn’t require holding to the minutia of the doctrinal statements.
Honestly, if all preachers were sticklers about such things, I wonder how many preachers these denominations would have. I have heard a Pentecostal preacher, COG in this case, say he was baptized with the Spirit some time before he spoke in tongues. I I have heard A/G people, probably even preachers, say there are people who could speak in tongues, but just don’t do it. And I know there are COG preachers and members who realize the teetotaler stance is biblically indefensible, but do not drink because…. they do not care to… but also because it is in the practical commitments. Denominations can micro-legislate and take firm stands on fuzzy issues at times.
Anonymous
Link Hudson NOW you belong to “church/assmbly of God” (sic) 🙂 malarkey It will take me exactly 1 phone call on monday to catch you in this lie of your too I bet a first edition my next Greek interlinear edition that name Lincoln Hudson has NEVER not once been listed as belonging to AoG – your claim this time again is lucifirially illusive and misleading once again AND simply NOT true. I even wonder if this is your real name at times because on YT you appear with different pseudonym. Too many personalities to fight before the mirror each morning? AND BTW Tom Smith the cog missionary to cog in Indonesia did not know you from Adam – or to have ever served in any capacity there TELL me another one
Anonymous
Troy Day notice tge small c and a. Believers who assume are a part of the xhurch/assembly. Denominational membership is not required for that. I see I have to be quite literal.
Did the early church take members through a procedure apart from confession and baptism?
Btw, my mother calls me Link. It is a nickname. Tommy Smith acted like he knew me the last I saw him, but that could have been in 07. I seem to recall chatting with him online. Tommy Smith knows and interacts with a lookout of people. If ge forgot me, fine.
I was an ‘activis’ at a group churches, part of which split from GBI qgen I went there. I never claimed to have any denominational role with A/G or COG. I was a ‘junior member’ at an AG in the 1990s.
I have no need to defend claims I did not make.
My mom calls me Link. ‘SaudaraLink’ translates as BrotherLink which was my handle on GodTube.com. in hindsight I wish I had started with that on YouTube.
Anonymous
Link Hudson not sure what you type again
Now you said – notice tge small c and a
in the morning you said “assmbly”
I hate to guess what you mean
Anonymous
Troy Day small c and a in church and assembly. Being a part of the church (assembly) of God is not a matter of joining a denomination.
Anonymous
Link Hudson you are or you are NOT now (assembly) of God?
Anonymous
Jesus made more wine for wedding guests who were already drunk.
Want me to prove it?
Anonymous
Ben Bottke sure!
Anonymous
Ben Bottke Usually they bring out the wine when the men are drunk, it says. It doesn’t say whether the men were drunk in the passage.
Anonymous
Link Hudson also NO where it says JESUS drunk it, but wait there is MORE Robert Cox may have and give a little clue here
Anonymous
Link Hudson – I appreciate you questioning me. It caused me to have to revisit the passage and see if I may have been mistaken.
Here’s what I found:
The passage (John 2:10 KJV) has the master of the wedding feast said, “Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine…”
The word “every” in the passage means “any, every one.” It’s the Greek word “pas.” Thayer’s Greek Lexicon is great because it tells the specific usage of each word in each passage it’s used in – usually. There are a few verses that get left out of the definition entry.
If the word means “any, every one” then it would include the wedding feast where Jesus turned the water into wine.
The link to the Lexicon entry for the word is here:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3956/kjv/tr/0-1/
Anonymous
Ben Bottke Jn 2 DOES NOT prove Jesus drunk wine – period !
Anonymous
Troy Day – Matthew 11:19 (NIV) says:
“The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”
Why would people call Jesus a drunkard if the phrase “The Son of Man came eating and drinking” if He never drank alcohol? They said this because He was drinking alcohol (likely wine, but they did have stronger drink back then) at the parties and other fellowship times He was at.
You’re right, the passage of the wedding feast doesn’t explicitly say Jesus was drinking wine. But, since Matthew 11:19 says Jesus came eating and drinking, He would have joined into the festivities, while not falling into sin.
Obviously, there are many sins a person can fall into when they partake in consuming alcohol. I haven’t addressed that. I’m just explaining what the Bible says about Jesusdrinking, without sinning. We should conform our beliefs to the Bible, not what a denomination or church says. I understand why some do advocate for not drinking at all. It causes a lot of problems in people’s lives. But, it’s not wise to just skip over the topic. That’s lazy leadership. Instead, they should explain the wise use of it, as well as the pitfalls people can fall into.
Many people struggle with the sin of gluttony. Churches don’t condemn the consumption of any desserts. Jesus was feasting on food that those who were gluttons were abusing by eating too much. That’s why the passage from Matthew 11:19 has the people calling him a glutton.
Much of the drinking culture in America is very dysfunctional. When I lived in various host homes in Germany for 3 months (about 15 different families) the culture and feeling around drinking is much different. They weren’t acting like frat house bros or the sinful culture at many bars in America. It was similar to eating cookies at a church dinner after a service. It was part of the enjoyment of socializing.
Anonymous
Ben Bottke at this feast they didn’t do that even though everyone else fid.
Anonymous
Link Hudson – What from the text says this?
Anonymous
Ben Bottke Jn 2 DOES NOT prove Jesus drunk wine – period !
Anonymous
Troy Day I spent a couple of years exegeting John and there is no mention of Jesus drinking alcohol. Of course the wine Jesus made was better Ben Bottke as He created Eden wine where all wine besides that came from a cursed ground. Study it a bit deeper Ben. It just said Jesus wine was the best and sadly you and others read into it without understanding that all other wine came from the curse. Genesis 3:17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.—
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I agree – and NOT JOHN alone There is NO mention in the whole NT about ANY Christian drinking wine. Even when Paul gives advise to Timothy it was given as insistment for Timothy to take advice he was not willing to take and we have NO proof Timothy ever had wine ever and Link cant find any such example either
Anonymous
Troy Day silly argument easily debunked with a concordance looking up the word wine.
No proof in the Bible Timothy wore clothes either. Paul told Timothy to drink wine. Did he explicitly say to wear clothes. So better evidence that Timothy drank wine than that he wore clothes.
Anonymous
Link Hudson yet yet yet AS easy as they are you are not debunking ANYTHING – just talk. Now that you dont claim cog affiliation any longer and practically deny it your baptistic orientation becomes clear
Anonymous
Troy Day where is the post I was responding to? There was a post with a ridiculous assertion about wine last night, including a statement that there was no evidence that Timothy drank, to which I responded with the easily debunked comment, and the comment about no proof that Timothy wore clothes.
Now there is a post about no proof that Jesus drank wine.
Jesus said John did not come eating or drinking…the Son of man came eating or drinking. They accused
According to the words of Gabriel, John was not to drink wine or strong drink. The Lord Jesus said they called Son of man a man gluttonous and a winebibber. He admitted to eating. He admitted to drinking. The false accusations was of partaking in __excess__.
And His Father had required offerings of wine and strong drink in the holy place.
Anonymous
Ben Bottke JN 2 does not allow you to drink wine
Sure you can go by JN 2 and drink BUT only if JESUS made it from water
Link Hudson has partaken from such but only when attending cog-Indonesia
Anonymous
Troy Day Occasionally church wine in Indonesia has a bit of alcohol in it. Probably something like Welch’s with just a bit of wine mixed in. I think I’ve tasted other stuff in there. I am pretty sure Yoido’s communion wine, when I went to hear the preacher formally known as Paul Yonggi Cho preach (or his translator) used a bit of wine in their communion. My fellow expat friend commented on it. I wasn’t particularly discerning on what it tasted like, but tasted something. It’s ironic because there are a lot of teetotaler Presbyterians there, and a heavy drinking culture in society in general.
Maybe the first GBI I preached at in Indonesia I overheard the pastor’s wife talking about using wine from Israel in communion, and maybe someone explained that to me in English.
Anonymous
Link Hudson like already stated months ago Tom Smith official cog rep. to Indonesia did not know you served in ANY capacity over there
Anonymous
Troy Day never made such claim. I also limit information I disclose on other topics. You like to assume, misremember, and assert. You get a lot wrong and make false statements about me. If you get something right on occasion I may not let you know.
Anonymous
Link Hudson nothing is assumed I can pull POST after POST where you speak LIKE you were affiliated with cog or cog -indonesia or missions there Dozens of posts youVE made BUT do clarify if you will what exactly was your affiliation there – BTW group is closed private and website is blocking any country east of Ukraine so just us talking and reading here
Anonymous
tell us your TRUE disp. view on this Jose Salinas Link Hudson
Anonymous
Troy Day no Christian should drink 👀
Anonymous
what about Junior Beasley Fred Leon Stewart
Anonymous
Troy Day speaking for myself, I try to stay continually dunk.
Anonymous
Why are you recycling an old one?
Anonymous
what do you mean?
Anonymous
Troy Day You posted on this guy about 6 months ago.
Anonymous
Karsten Wille this guy is one of the TOP Pentecostal theologians
needs to be posted daily if not more around Pentecostals
Anonymous
Troy Day , OK the exact same topic.
Anonymous
Karsten Wille until its well understood by all
its a beautiful thing …
Anonymous
Troy Day , Oh boy, here we go again!
Anonymous
Karsten Wille he found this pic of me and my wife at Charlie’s Restaurant in OKC after we preached at a Local church there and had met with some friends and he us trying to shame me cause one of my friends there had a non alcoholic drink and he and John are accusing me of it being mine and being at a bar.
Honestly I just went for the sweet potatoes.
Notice the non alcoholic drink belongs to the person taking the picture.
Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10231473606211161&set=p.10231473606211161&type=3
Anonymous
hey John Mushenhouse hate to sound like I am picking on our ol buddy Junior but why is SO quite on this here topic? He aint one of them unsanctified sippin Christians now is he? #4thatBnice
Anonymous
RT John Mushenhouse Since you proclaim your self knowledgeable on Pentecostalism, what is classic belief about alcohol. I see you have a pic of yourself at a bar with one in front of you.
Anonymous
I can tell you NOW John Mushenhouse even preservation of the saints is not gonna save a drunk And that’s the BIBLE right there
Anonymous
Troy Day
Chemo and Alcohol don’t mix. My stomach hurts enough as it is
Anonymous
Shouldn’t Holy Spirit do the convicting ?
Anonymous
Thomas Sherman No we have admins to lead ppl to do that. Smh.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley looks like 90% of the church Pentecostal or Baptist or whatever Born Again and our side Baptistized in Holy Ghost still carrying around significant parts of Fallen Adam after you believed ! The biggest being self centeredness and self seeking. After he ate sin was born he needed love and affirmation instead of be love totally lost his identity and the image of God so became sinful needing love no longer had the image of God and his life was ruled by self centeredness. That sums up 90% of the church today along with envy jealousy strife and pride. Doesn’t sound surrendered does it.
Anonymous
Thomas Sherman
Reformed theology gets more and more reformed as time goes on.
But that’s the thing about sanctification it’s through the lose of war to sin and the victory to continue by the Spirit that we grow stronger.
When we went to war in 91 all the old Vietnam Vets were retired So we had to figure out how to fight. Same way with the church and sanctification so many good Churches but few of the modern reformed speak on such matters all the old saints are gone or stayed behind in the traditional churches they were accustomed to. So the newer Christians are having to figure out how tonfight the war of saintification on their on.
And then we got those who should be teachers but we are having to part beards and insert bottles.
Those that should lead by example well they like to sit in judgment over other believing because they have the Sporit in them they are able to convict, judge and punish.
So yes about 90% are gonna have to figure out how to wrestle on their own.
Anonymous
still carrying around significant parts of Fallen Adam after you believed is tight Thomas Sherman for this reason John Mushenhouse called out MANY here for drinking while being Pentecostal BUT they dont care. They love to drink MORE
Anonymous
Junior Beasley why do you find it good too always insult others who don’t agree with your mandates? Isn’t it time to stop or at least speak with grace and not selfish works. Expose actions and not the people. Please study James. He writes some powerful instructions.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse
I don’t know what crap your trying to stir but mone on Satan.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley you insulted the admins and you are so far above others that you don’t see it. I realized once you spoke in total error about Arminianism ” it is God then our works”, that you have no realization of grace and especially in your life’s dealings with other. Oh you consider yourself gracious and the better christian. You wrote in the past that you realize I am bad, but you being the great Christian tolerate me. How gracious of you. That is, if you understood grace and not led for your need for attention as some type of theologian. With your ungodly insults, you declare others are bad, but look at me. I am the standard for all Christianity. “I” put up with them — o the martyr!!!!!!!! Junior you are a poorly read individual and especially concerning the bible. You make it all about Junior with your look at me- look at me comments. It is time you got over yourself and follow this : 1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every encumbrance and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with endurance the race set out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. Hebrew 12 – you have lost heart by always dwelling on yourself, if you have even had a Godly heart to begin with. How can you have a Godly heart when you love yourself the most. — Here is your insult of which I spoke – now use your double talk to get out of it — “Junior Beasley
Thomas Sherman No we have admins to lead ppl to do that. Smh.” That is an ungodly insult but you being a self proclaimed Mr. Pentecost and theological expert are above it. You are the better Christian.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse
I haven’t insulted anyone. Now get behind thee Satan.
Pp
Anonymous
Junior Beasley you are too full of yourself and socially unaware to see it. Now stop it, read the bible and pray for the fruit of the Spirit in your life.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse
Get behind thee Satan
Anonymous
Junior Beasley you lack ordinary intelligence along with any Christian graces. Ego doesn’t make up for it either — 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
Spiritual Immaturity
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the [a]oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are [b]of full age, that is, those who by reason of [c]use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 5
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse
I rebuke you Satan in the name of Jesus.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley stop you have no power. Go to Jesus and He will give you rest — 28Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matt 11 — Junior Beasley — Seek help from Jesus – you are a perturbed person. It is called dissonance – or as Paul states in Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse
Liar and Thiefs such as you shall not enter into the Kingdom of G-d, Satan.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse your time is Short thou who lyingly persecute the brethren…
Anonymous
Junior Beasley you really think you are the standard. If you had ever read James you would know not to determine another salvation. But you do as you don’t know the Bible and that is the only answer you can give to my telling you to go to Jesus. Now here is something you have never learned either. I saw it in you from our discussion a few months ago. It is a very hard lesson to learn Junior and so you need to ask God for help.——1. There is a God. –2. You are not Him. — Junior stop slandering me as I am a born again son of Fod. Read this — 11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister[d] or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor? James 4 — I realize that you don’t think it applies to you and you are perfect and if anybody corrects you, they can’t be right but must be of Satan. Seek humility Junior.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley the truly sad thing is that you are so spiritually dull of hearing that you won’t understand James 4.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse
You purposely lied and got caught attempting to HARM my integrity and purposely harm my reputation anY FARTHER contact from your continual harassment will result in a visit to the DA office and my lawyer for matters of lawsuit. Now once again please leave me alone IM TIRED OF YOUR RELENTLESS LIES.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley stop trying to justify your actions by returning to the past. You keep on insulting and you are guilty of idolatry as you put yourself up as God as you deemed me Satan. Now stop and go repent. Junior do you know what to repent means. Have you ever repented. Stop you slander and take responsibility for your actions. Whining may get you sympathy but not with me. Repent.
Anonymous
You sat in a Barand called it a restaurant. You are imitating the world with your near beer God will completely deliver you from loving of the world. 1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Anonymous
The real sin is not my inability to see a label that wasn’t totally able to be seen which is all you have to defend yourself and your biblical ignorance. The real sin is you knowing calling a born again christian Satan. Repent — “God opposes the proud
but shows favor to the humble.”[c]
7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. James 4
Anonymous
simple TRUTH is John Mushenhouse Melvin Harter drunk with beer cannot be DRUNK in the SPIRIT
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I see the restaurants you go to don’t serve alcohol well good for you.
Some of the ones I go to do but you probably never been in a tie required steak house. Maybe one of these days you can sell a nut and afford it.
Anonymous
Junior Beasley have you blocked John Mushenhouse why are we discussing your life matters and NOT theology ?
Anonymous
Troy Day you need to ask yourself and him that.
Anonymous
Well the truth is even as the Pentecostals or Charismatic s we do have two adversaries our flesh which we are to crucify daily and Satan and his traps but we can’t just pick up the cross and deny ourselves daily without intimacy with Jesus Holy Spirit and the Word. We all have weakness in our armor at times but it is usually when are not intimate with Jesus in the Secret Place seeking His face and being transformed into His image and walk in His love its coming to realization of only full surrender is the requirement. I pray for transformation daily for self centeredness and self seeking be removed from as I renounce them and to have my identity in Jesus alone nothing else. For Revival to take place in me in my family my region my state this nation and the Nations of the World and from these tyrants that run our government and governments of nations. But if we don’t get free from the Adam remnants and our identity in Jesus be transformed into His image nothing will ever change. There is nothing wrong with a Pastoral word going out to the group but it’s our own responsibility to yield listen and obey to Holy Spirit in us if we don’t it a game of denial and it screams of a life not surrendered to Jesus Christ. If we are not adhering to the conviction of Holy Spirit we can never get our identity right and we can never get the transformation into His image so we are not serious being His disciple we are just in religion and yuck who really wants that. This has to be a serious walk it has serious consequences for a dying world. We must all take it seriously we must be authentic we all no right from wrong. But if someone has an issue that continues they need to confess to a more mature brother and there are seducing spirits out there I felt one hit me once that got me into sexual sin my mistake was not reporting it to my Pastor who has never condemned me for some of my screw ups he just in love helped me get a path out of it and prayed with me about it. Sometimes we do stumble but I am not here to judge any man. It’s just my opinion for what it is worth. If anyone on here has a drinking problem go to AA I have seen more success there than in churches with celebrate recovery just saying.
Anonymous
Thomas Sherman
Sanctification is a daily work through losses to sin and more power given by the Holy Spirit till one day we have Victory. We will always wrestle with sin and the Spirit is always there to keep us from falling but not failing for failing produces growth.
…A righteous man falls 7 times….
Heed ING to the Spirit is a daily work but we can always rest assured that one day Victory will be ours.
Anonymous
Sanctification is a daily work through losses to sin sounds like someone trying to sanctify themselves John Mushenhouse Melvin Harter BUT how can do that if drinking continues to be part of that daily work ? Cant be done!
Anonymous
tell us your story Rasiah Thomas Isara Mo Wangure’s Reflections
Anonymous
Troy Day It is not a story time. However, Immersion Baptism is a covenant for Born Again Christians. Amen!
Anonymous
Rasiah Thomas yes – tell us all about it
Anonymous
Troy Day It is not a revelation given to anyone. Immersion Baptism is an extraordinary submission to join along with the death of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the Indian version of the Malayalam Bible translation apart from the death and resurrection of old and new life. Amen!
Anonymous
Rasiah Thomas not a revelation given to anyone?
Anonymous
Troy DayEven in my (Mother Tongue) Tamil translated from the Greek does not show this revelation. It implies that let us die for our sins in Baptism and raise for divine righteousness with Christ. Amen!