Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars
Click to get our FREE MOBILE APP and stay connected
| PentecostalTheology.com
We wrapped up the Prophetic Summit last night. I was privileged to be part of it. In one session, I offered a history of prophecy and the prophetic in the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement in North America from 1906 to 2006. It was more like a view from 10,000 feet. Researching for the presentation really helped me to think through several issues.
Some of the general points that stood out to me were:
1. No one has attempted a history of the movement on any single continent. Yes, there are collections of essays that get at features and there are basic introductions and encyclopedias but there is not a single volume history. Most histories are of the early years or of denominations.
2. Post-WWII P-C has not been dealt with in any overarching way. We have histories on healing evangelists, latter rain, and charismatics, but nothing that explores all of the intersections and developments let alone how this fits with denominational Pentecostalism.
3. We have severely underestimated the impact of Latter Rain theology on the P-C movement. This is especially the case in North America but also for Britain, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and South America (less so for Africa). It’s not simply in terms of prophecy but also the whole idea of prophetic singing and worship. And, we also don’t understand how there are Latter Rain theologies rather than a single theology. Finally, we don’t fully see how the Independent Assemblies of God (a small denomination of largely Scandinavian/Scandinavian-American Pentecostals) shaped the movement’s ecclesiology. They took the AG idea of the church as an organism and used it to criticize even the AG. It’s AG ecclesiology on steriods.
4. We have not fully explored the way the healing evangelists disrupted so much in denominational Pentecostalism and really put the movement on the map. So many of the healing evangelists came out of Pentecostal denominations (most from AG) and so many blew up those denominational structures. Even in the Church of God, we reacted to Jack Coe, A. A. Allen, W. V. Grant, R. W. Schambach leaving the AG by telling our own evangelists like T. L. Lowrey that either they get with us completely or they could leave.
5. William Branham, for all of his craziness and theological aberrations, became the basic model for a prophet in men like Kenneth E. Hagin (who saw himself as a prophet).
6. We are missing the second phase of building multicultural and multiethnic communities. This largely happened among healing evangelists like Oral Roberts, A. A. Allen, and Arturo Skinner (who by the way most people seem to have forgotten about). There is a lot more that needs to be written about Skinner’s role (and Bishop Roderick Caesar, Sr.) in the rise of deliverance churches.
I could say more, but there are just so many connections we are not making as far as I can tell.
Anonymous
lots to unpack here but also a lot is missing Peter Vandever Paul King Terry Wiles Roscoe Barnes III Bishop Bernie L Wade David Bundy David Rollings
Anonymous
do you agree or disagree Kyle Williams Duane L Burgess Brett Dobbs Eric Washburn
Anonymous
Troy Day what exactly are you asking about for agreement and disagreement?
If the history of prophetic men and women and their testimonies should be collected and presented?
I would say yes to that.
Especially when it comes to folks who have operated in the gifts. History is a good thing to have and know. There are so many phonies in the world today. We have to sift through the real and the fake. If we have a legitimate record of some who were the real deal, we can make a comparison with the historical accounts and it makes it easier to spot out and call out the phonies.
My point is basically this, the Holy Spirit who was given in time of Acts, is the same Holy Spirit today. However the church operated in the gifts then, should be the same way today.
So having any kind of historic model should be very beneficial.
Any records from not only the last couple hundred years, but throughout all church history.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs I don’t believe we have a historical model
Anonymous
Charles Page I don’t think we do either. Or at least not one that has been published.
Anonymous
Charles Page why don’t believe that? Are you even Pentecostal per se?
Anonymous
Troy Day define “Pentecostal” as you use the word
Anonymous
Charles Page do you believe in sanctification like Link Hudson or is it your stance salvation only occurs at self-regeneration activities?
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m not a latter rain pantycostal
Anonymous
Troy Day I am opposed to priest/preacher assisted regeneration
Anonymous
Charles Page are you zap-sanctified unlike Link Hudson then ?
Anonymous
GO harbors a practicing homosexual- is that a monastic order? What do you call a leader of a monastery?
Anonymous
Troy Day It’s the post-salvation zap as a doctrine I don’t agree with. We are washed, sanctified, and justified when we become a new creature in Christ Jesus. God can do an instant work in an individual’s life. I don’t see any scripture to back up the idea of an instant once-for-all ‘zap’ of sanctification after salvation taught as a doctrine in scripture.
Anonymous
well Link Hudson the zap is something you created that does NOT reflect the doctrine of ENTIRE sanctification. There is a disagreement in what you said with what Charles Page believes on salvation as being regenerative
THAT you both see unsanctified / unregenerate people going to your denom. monasteries is a major problem theologically FOR who else is to judge entire sanctification or regeneration of the human heart but GOD? John Mushenhouse would agree regeneration is NO salvation !
Anonymous
Troy Day I read the article on the monastery with all the vague theological and sociological verbage a while back. You keep talking about COG (Cleveland) monasteries in this thread, but all I know about it are your comments to it. I haven’t read any details. Do you have a source? The COG (Cleveland) having monasteries sounds kind of far-fetched. The article linked in this thread is about the need for academic analysis of Latter Rain theology and post WWII P/C theology and history, not Pentecostal monasteries.
If celibate Christians want to live in the same house or have a bit of community, I don’t see a problem with that. But if Christians who come from a ‘homosexual background’ want to live together in a big community, that seems like a rather dangerous.
Anonymous
COG is providing sanctuary for homosexuals under varying harbors
This includes people with gender identities
They are being protected from active conservative believers
Anonymous
Charles Page how?
Anonymous
Charles Page Are the Lee students you mentioned attending a COG? Is there some kind of official action to hide them or ‘keep ’em gay’ or something like that? Are they trying to minister to them, or offer them some kind of counseling?
Anonymous
Charles Page I am not using the term – it came with the article. I can only suppose it has emerged in some missional cog circiles. After all, it says what it says – perhaps avid cogger Link from the Bethlehem church in Bangladesh can shed some light on whats actually going on there
Anonymous
Troy Day Never been to Bangladesh.
Anonymous
Link Hudson sorry cant follow all your Bethleharem goings
Anonymous
Link Hudson READ the comment by Charles Page AGAIN
“COG is providing sanctuary for homosexuals under varying harbors
This includes people with gender identities
They are being protected from active conservative believers” if you didnt know or harbored knowledge NOT you know !
Anonymous
Troy Day based on past posts, I take his negative comments with a grain of salt. I haven’t heard back from him on weather that is supposed to be a counseling or ‘rehab’ type ministry to help them get out of that lifestyle. They could protect their identities. That’s different from hiding the gays and keeping them gay.
Anonymous
Link Hudson monasticism as pointed out by Charles Page from the article research and its author points to a uni/single sex orders. Counseling or ‘rehab’ in such setting exposes uni/single sex persons attracted to that same uni/single sex which is the danger John Mushenhouse pointed out to Ricky Grimsley Jim Price and Neil Steven
Anonymous
Troy Day you guys must be filling in the gaps with information I do not have. I do not live in Tennessee, either, or know all the goings on up there.
Anonymous
This is not TN info alone but is publicized nationally during the week when your leaders got together declaring completing the great commission by 2030 or so. This must be part of the plan Strategy2030 Ricky Grimsley has told us about. Charles Page stated clearly and explicitly “COG is providing sanctuary for homosexuals under varying harbors This includes people with gender identities They are being protected from active conservative believers” NOW Link Hudson how do you feel this relates to the parallel ongoing prophetic summit of this OP OR are you just hacking it?
Anonymous
Many in his list would make a hall of shame and were a gold mine for the alcohol stores.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse terrible thing to saY TO tROY
Anonymous
Charles Page it is true. Tell me about Jack Coe. Did you know him? What did A.A. Allen die from according to the official report and not from his followers. Please go into detail. Who got Coe out of jail for drunk driving more than once.
Anonymous
Who backed Grant and thankfully his son wasn’t mentioned. I have heard Grant preach “do you love Jesus – do you love Him 1,000 dollars enough. He was AG but he would fit in well with other denominations.
Anonymous
well he was AG till he got kicked out for his wealthy lifestyle and huge house (plus arguing over healings). That started a war as he outed the leaders of the AG for having huge houses. Allen bought his giant tent and Grant his building. Gordon Lindsay tried to help him. Read what Lindsay said about him.—
Anonymous
He failed to mention William Freeman, little David Walker, Tommy Hicks and the man many believe to have been the best preacher O. L. Jaggers.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse doubt Charles Page can tell you about these
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse why should they be mentioned by Dale M. Coulter This is like to state David Wilkerson should be mentioned on the list too
Anonymous
Troy Day because they played a major part. Coulter said he had to research for the article. Many of today’s teachers know little of the healing/prophetic revival. They write articles. Many in the later day Church of God know little about those who were in the AG back then. Very important people in the movement. They need to be mentioned and mentioned in detail. That is, if you are doing a thorough history and not just a speech at a conference. Mass consumerism has become today’s agenda.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse well I dont know about Dale M. Coulter but I for one could care less about Jaggers’ oratories. For two he imitated sister Amy quite marvelously copying her theatrics quite well. And for three, he reminds way too much of Elvis/Jerry Lee and this way forgoes Jimmy Swaggart who Charles Page still may listen to in his live@5 secret hour
Anonymous
Troy Day He was important enough for you to mention. Troy at least you heard the man. I am so sick of these folks who grab a quick book, jot down names and then act the expert as they entertain the listeners. Sadly, few are left who heard them or interviewed those involved or their kin. We are listening to points without the point makers knowing what they are making their points about. It is -oh I have a conference (important me) and so I must hurry and find a few names. This was an important era in the Pentecostal church in spite of the flaws. Did God really visit with such signs or was it to gain the trust and the purse strings of the flock. I realize you can’t say too much in a short article, but say something besides the recitation of names. Who were these men? What kind of lives did they lead? What did they say? What was the fruit of their ministries. It is not my area of concentration, but I have interviewed some personally who were involved and find it fascinating. We are not doing the Holy Spirit or the legacy of that period the clarification it needs. They are not just names although he did say go deeper into one man. Yes this may have been just to primed the pump, but I wonder if after listening, if it was “next”.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse well it is not that I didnt like him but there was something in his ringing voice Now it could have been just the mic at that era – they played with a lot of effects and psychodeliX 🙂 I think it was in that era too Charles Page affirmed being from the #me2move
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I am somewhat familiar with the other names you mentioned There were 2-3 Canadians as well that are worth mentioning Darnell Henson Jr. David Bundy David Rollings can come up with more names too But I am wondering why is Dale M. Coulter not commenting yet – may need to ask Tony Richie to bid him to come …
Anonymous
Link Hudson Charles Page I also see Philip Williams staying out of this one BIG time as we know for a fact in his Catholic tradition such has existed for a long time
Anonymous
Excellent
Anonymous
see John Mushenhouse our friend Philip Williams is missing it but I do believe you are right. There will be NO further discussion from the author
Anonymous
Troy Day shows how Pentecostal was Latter Rain before the uninformed learned PreTrib.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse just posted Troy Day I can’t comment on Dale Coulter’s post for some reason. Is it turned off?. The reason Viola kicked out Bosworth was because of Bosworth following Parham. The fight for control. John G. Lake was there too and was kicked out.. Some stuff about money as well. Pauline Parham spoke of Lake’s and Bosworth’s time with Charles Parham. It was very interesting. Look at the power struggle Parham, Viola and Durham. Wow — If you are into history worth looking into.