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Jon Sellers | PentecostalTheology.com
Jon Sellers [06/28/2015 6:18 PM]
Barry, thanks for your reply. Your declaration of victory seems to be a bit hasty. I am unpersuaded.
There is nothing in your quote from Augustine with which I disagree. Nothing there contradicts anything I said in my comment.
His points can be summarized as follows: Jesus was born of a mother and not an earthly father. Agreed. We are made sons by grace. Agreed. We are born of God according to His Word. Agreed.
These points do not however leads us to monergism. They simply reflect that salvation by grace is God’s idea and God’s initiative.
I did not ignore the universal scope of John’s prologue as you suppose. I just did not make it a major point. I alluded to it when I said, “John starts his argument in 1:9. Jesus is the light that gives light to everyone. He has now come into the world he has made. v.10, Even though the world was made by him, the world did not recognize him. Note the similarity to 8:40, 42 above. v11. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Here the identification narrows from the whole world as created order to the children of Israel as God’s chosen covenant people.”
John is constantly referencing the Jews in his gospel. He frequently highlights the conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees. The English term “Jews” is found 62 times in John in the ESV. By comparison it is only found 15 times in Matthew through Luke combined. “Pharisees” is found 63 times in Matthew through Luke and 19 times in John alone.
Since John wrote his gospel after the others, he was writing to mixed congregations of both Jewish and non-Jewish believers. Does it matter if John is concerned more with Jews or mankind in general? Let us consider some new things.
Who else was making the claim to be a son of God in the Roman Empire? Yes, it was Caesar. The concept of a king, emperor or ruler being divine or a son or progeny of divinity or in some way coming from the gods is an ancient and widespread belief.
If we consider the three “nots” in the light of those claims we can universalize their application to any and all claims humans might make to being divine or from the gods. So whether it be Jewish claims to be children of God by virtue of being children of Abraham, as I have referenced in my discussion of John 8, or pagan claims to be of divine origin or descent, John is making a unique claim for believers – we are children of God by God’s decision to offer grace to us and make us His children through our believing.
Reviewing the three nots. I found D. A. Carson’s comments helpful, from his Commentary on John from google books.
Jon Sellers [06/28/2015 7:08 PM]
So again I see nothing in the text or context that points to John wanting to make an argument against believing as an act of human volition. We do it everyday. We believe many things. It is a part of how God made our minds to function. What was the understanding of the nature of the will back in the first century? The logical flow of his thought in those verses points to a process where Jesus comes, his own do not receive him (this clearly is documented throughout all four gospels), but those who do receive him (these believe in his name) are given the right to become children of God.
Ed Brewer
no
Louise Cummings
I m not to familiar with that word. Even though I read the article on it. I believe everyone has a choice to receive God. Or a choice to reject Him. I don’t believe God president some to go to hell. And some to go to Heaven. I believe He died for us all to go to Heaven. But man is the only one that God made to make choices. And a lot of people doesn’t choose God by their
Own choice. God gave every one a chance. I Choose God.
Varnel Watson
Jon Sellers pointed out that John is speaking against the backdrop of Jewish belief that they are all descendants of Abraham by birth. They can identify themselves by tribe. But Jesus has already rebuked the Pharisees for claiming to be children of Abraham, but not doing the deeds of Abraham http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/does-john-112-13-teach-monergism/
Varnel Watson
Monergism is the position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration http://www.gotquestions.org/monergism-vs-synergism.html
Louise Cummings
I still don’t understand these terms all together. You mad each category clear. But not really for me. We didn’t bring these words up in any of our Bible studies that I know of. One I have heard of before. But I do not believe in unconditional eternal security. I would be afraid The Blood of Jesus would be required at my hands to tell people they could be born again or saved. And lived for the Lord a little while then start sinning again, like before. But because they were saved once. When Jesus was talking to the Churches in Revelation. John wrote to them chapter 3:20-22. Jesus said ( Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone or any man hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and with him, and he with Me. ). ThenHe told the Laodiceans Because you are lukewarm , and neither hot or cold I will spue you out of My mouth. I believe if you are a Christian , live like one. I believe that was the reason the forbidden tree was put in the garden of Eden. Was to give man a choice to listen to God and obey Him or turn Him away and do their own thing. ( my opinion ) l don’t believe God wants to make us serve Him. But because we believe in Him and love Him. I do believe God is Omniscience. All knowing. But still wants everyone to Love and serve Him because He died for us. She’d His Blood for us. Payed my penalty for me. But He gave us a choice to except it. Like He gave the children of Israel a chance to look to the brazen serpent , when bitten by a poison snake. Represented sin. The only way they could live was to look on the brazen. Pointing to theCross in The New Testament. The only way we can have Eternal Life , is look to The Cross. Because Jesus is The Door. The only way in to Eternal life. I don’t know category that puts me in. Lol.
Louise Cummings
I don’t believe in predestination. The way some people does. It’s somewhere in the Bible , I didn’t look it up. He said He is not willing for any to perish. But that all should come to repentance. I believe that’s the same place where He said He is Long suffering. Not willing for any should perish. ( what a great God we serve. ). Willing that none should perish. I got up with a song on my mind this week. I hadn’t heard in a long time. It says , There is a Fountain Filled With Blood. Drawn From Immanuel’s Veins. And sinners plunge beneath the flow. Lose all their guilt and shame or stains I cry just writing about it. Immanuel means God with us. But to think of what a Savior that was willing to become man and walk this lowly path that led to Calvary. Where His Blood Red stains. It Broke All The Chains. And Said That ( I) Could Still. Go Free. Even said He would put me inHis Will. Oh what God has in store for those that Love Him. I heard a saying once that’s so true. He takes a black heart ( meaning sin ) and washed it in Red Blood , and washed it White As Snow. Only God could do that.
Mary Ellen Nissley
This article got it backwards. The verse has it the other way around.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
#1. There was first a choice whether or not to receive Him.
#2. Next, all who received, became sons of God.
#3. And then, it says that the process of becoming a son of God is not by our own will, but by God’s.
But notice that first the choice was made to receive, before the birth happened. It is the birth that was of God’s will. Not the choice to receive.
Because it is not God’s will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If it were all up to God, every man would repent of their sins.
(I dare you to say it’s not his will for every man to repent!)
But He doesn’t force them to, does he?
Therefore, just because something is God’s will, doesn’t mean it happens. He leaves some things up to us.
Varnel Watson
yeah Ricky Grimsley I dont think so.Christ is Son from Eternity and to Eternity
Ricky Grimsley
Sure this scripture implies synergism since we have “the right” “if we believe” but i dont see how this scripture proves that past eternal sonship.
Charles Page
The salvation context here is synergistic
Varnel Watson
Biblical synergism is the expressed cooperation of God’s will and the will of man working together toward the salvific restoration of the creation
Ricky Grimsley
Im not a Calvinist but its only by grace that we even want to get saved right?
Philippians 2:13 KJVS
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Charles Page
Semi Pelagianism?
Ricky Grimsley
No. Grace alone. It’s by grace you even want to do good or do good. We cant choose to regenerate if the spirit doesnt draw us?
Charles Page
We can’t choose to be regenerated
Regeneration is a monergistic grace
It’s unmerited favor
Tony Conger
How do we even have the option for salvation if we can’t choose it? Obviously no man comes to God unless the Spirit draws him so the question is does man have the ability to say yes or no
Ricky Grimsley
You cant answer if the question isnt asked?
Charles Page
If you hold to the orthodox doctrine of original sin you understand monergistic regeneration
If you reject OS then you are either Pelagianism or semi-pelagianism
Varnel Watson
If Pentecostal / Charismatic theology rejects OSAS how can it advocate for once delivered always delivered (ODAD) i.e. eternal entire sanctification?
Ricky Grimsley
Osas is ridiculous. Saving a soul from death kinda jumps out at me?James 5:19-20 KJVS
[19] Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; [20] Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Varnel Watson
If you were right Ricky Grimsley a born again Christian can very well have a demon b/c neither eternal security nor entire sanctification guarantees anything ???
Varnel Watson
ask a gnostic like RichardAnna Boyce
Mike Partyka
Can be used but there are others that Calvinist use more often.
Varnel Watson
in what way?
Mike Partyka
Troy Day they would position it as not every person has the right to be a child of God or heir of His promises simply by being born. Only those who are born anew spiritually and trust in Christ will have that right. To become children of God we must be born again John 3 1:14. To be born again is an act of grace alone and only God can bring us to new spiritual life
Varnel Watson
Mike Partyka But this is not really monergism is it? Sounds like a mix up with synergism if you ask me