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Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18)
Is this a direct command for Christians NOT to drink as Paul commanded the church? John Conger Stan Wayne Alan N Carla Smith Corey Forsyth
Corey Forsyth [01/26/2016 8:33 AM]
Are we voting? 🙂
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 8:34 AM]
On a direct commandment from the Bible? This is not democracy
Corey Forsyth [01/26/2016 8:36 AM]
I know. Sarcasm. I believe it is clear but the fact is, everyone will read there conviction here. Those convicted against drinking will see this as a command but those who believe it is acceptable to drink will see some wiggle room in the wording “do not be drunk”
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 8:41 AM]
for once I like how the Amplified Bible (AMP) puts it:
18 Do not get drunk with wine, for that is wickedness (corruption, stupidity), but be filled with the [Holy] Spirit and constantly guided by Him.
Corey Forsyth [01/26/2016 8:44 AM]
I love the word stupidity here. If we are instructed over and over again to be sober minded, why introduce anything that compromises that?
Christopher Hart [01/26/2016 8:46 AM]
I don’t drink, but as mentioned already, the prohibition here is against getting drunk — against excessive, not moderate, consumption.
Jimmy Humphrey [01/26/2016 8:55 AM]
This issue is getting really old
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 9:00 AM]
Theology-on-Tap #ToT is a very real current issue among preachers who get together in church to do theology while sipping on an alcoholic beverage https://twitter.com/ourCOG/status/375722463608307712
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 9:04 AM]
sorry about the wrong link – here’s the right one https://thecogpk.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/to-drink-or-not-to-drink-that-is-the-question/
Steve Webb [01/26/2016 9:22 AM]
Dr. Arrington wrote an excellent piece on this. It is in this book:
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 9:34 AM]
Thank you Dr. Steve Webb what an excellent resource. It is great to hear the opinion of actual ministers on the subject of ministers doing #ToT in most cases ministers just remain silent while outspoken voices take over to claim and embrace drinking as not sinful http://christianreader.com/what-would-jesus-drink/
John Conger [01/26/2016 9:49 AM]
Once again drinking and drunkenness is not the same thing. As bad as you would like it to be
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 9:51 AM]
Once again – who do you propose makes the difference? Certainly you dont think the self-intoxicating person should be able to control his self-intoxication while self-intoxicating him/her self, right?
Stan Wayne [01/26/2016 10:06 AM]
^^^ this distinction seems somehow lost
– this is the confusion the temperance people of the 19th Century sowed:
“And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;”
Ephesians 5:18 KJV
“Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;”
1 Timothy 3:8 KJV
Steve Webb [01/26/2016 10:26 AM]
The long and short of it falls to this…there is absolutely no need for a Christian to place mind altering alcohol in their body. The article by Dr. Arrington proves this point quite well. I’ll try to pull some highlights when I get home from work this evening.
Charity Alewine Murphy [01/26/2016 10:27 AM]
Wow I’m in a discussion now on this BC I’m getting attacked BC I don’t believe in drinking and BC of that I’m being told that when jesus turned water into wine he served it to others to drink and we can witness while serving and getting others drunk. So I get accused of twisting scripture bc Jesus did it and told I’m denying the miracle and saying Jesus sinned. When in reality I’m against drinking , do not think the wine was the wine we drink today and can’t make my self say its ok. Wow what a morning.
Stan Wayne [01/26/2016 11:09 AM]
Charity – great name – we all agree “getting others drunk” is against scripture – that is not the issue
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 11:27 AM]
#ToT short for Theology on Tap indicates a minister related issue. Who in the discussion IS an active minister and drinks? Pls elaborate
Stan Wayne [01/26/2016 11:28 AM]
Me
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 11:29 AM]
yes Sir Stan Wayne what denomination are you ordained with? //THANKS
John Conger [01/26/2016 11:29 AM]
One if the big problems with discussions like this is that no one wants to apply rom. 14 to themselves. People become convinced of something and they feel that since it makes sense to them then it must be right and therefore everyone should follow it. Whether its eating pork. Or drinking, or KJVO or what day is the Sabbath etc etc. When scripture plainly tells us to give for other beliefs. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. {fully persuaded: or, fully assured} 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Stan Wayne [01/26/2016 11:34 AM]
I was ordained in the A/Gs in 1974 – obeyed the abstinence rule – moved over to Fellowship of Christian Assemblies for a few years – no rule – while in Assemblies my first stint was Teen Challenge Director of Louisiana where we battled drug addiction in youth and am friendly to working against alcohol or drug abuse. Pastored 10 years Taught at Evangel U for 4 years Phillips U for 4 years then missionary for 7 years in Japan – then itinerant preaching in Australia and now in New York – tent making as lawyer – drink beer or wine occasionally – especially if served by host
Mark Gonzales [01/26/2016 11:34 AM]
God never said not to drink. It always says drunkeness. Thats the problem drunkeness
Mark Gonzales [01/26/2016 11:36 AM]
But he also said Gods love is better than wine. Whats Gods love? Its his spirit .The holy spirit in our hearts. Drunk in the spirit is better
Stan Wayne [01/26/2016 11:37 AM]
Agreed Mark but it is not either or – not mutually exclusive
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 11:38 AM]
Mark Gonzales pls do not hi-jack this discussion too. Ephesians 5:18: Do not get drunk on wine – who is to say when the drinking person is drunk? Are you too proposing that the self-intoxicating person should is able to control his/her self-intoxication while self-intoxicating him/her self ???
Stan Wayne [01/26/2016 11:38 AM]
Mark – different subject
Stan Wayne [01/26/2016 11:39 AM]
This self intoxicating theory is crazy – of course a person can control that – usually they count how much is consumed
John Conger [01/26/2016 11:41 AM]
You should never be attacked for your personal conviction but if you don’t believe it was alcoholic wine then you have to accept that scripture commands ministers should not be given to grape juice
Joe Absher
“Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.”
– Proverbs 20:1
Link Hudson
The Bible speaks about against the excess of wine. Deacons are not to be given to _much_ wine. Paul told Timothy to no longer drink only water but to drink a _little_ wine for his stomach’s sake.
Paul also told the Ephesians not to be drunk with wine, but to be filled with the Spirit.
Excess is the issue.
Btw, did Paul tell the Ephesians not to be drunk on Welch’s grape juice?
Abstaining is fine in most cases. It is really sad, though, when a Pentecostal would abstain from communion because they used ‘real wine’. I heard Jimmy Swaggart talk about doing this when he went to Russia while the iron curtain was still up.
It is also sad when Pentecostals look at someone having one beer or one glass of wine to be sinning. I’ve probably done that. We have to be sensitive to other people’s consciences. But Romans 14 says for the one who abstains from eating not to judge him who eats.
They may have had more real issues they were dealing with in Rome, like meat that might have been offerred to idols or kosher food laws, things they actually had some reason to think were forbidden.
For us, our Bible’s forbid excess of wine, not all consumption of it, and the tradition of tee-totalerism as a doctrinal stance only evolved in the past couple of hundred years. Before Welch’s grape juice was invented, communion was had with wine. When some churches started introducing processed grape juice, that was a controversy. You can read newspaper articles against it.
Opposing ‘real wine’ in communion is based on a severe ignorance of history and a blindess to what the Bible teaches. But some Pentecostal preachers pass on and instill an ignorant legalism to their hearers on this issue. I was once a victim of that as a teenager. It can hinder how you percieve and interact with other Christians who have a better understanding of the issue in scripture and people in the world.
Charles Page
I enjoy a kosher sweet wine in the evening!
Link Hudson
Charles Page Do Primitive Baptists kick people out over that?
Charles Page
I’m not Primitive Baptist but no they don’t
and they use wine for communion
Thangsan Hisfootstep
To me to abstain is still much more better than even the said “little wine” unless doctors clearly say so like Paul to Timothy. Therefore, Timothy’s case must be put under special exception but not as a standard.
Link Hudson
Was Paul a medical doctor?
We shouldn’t put our burdens on people and bind them. We should teach them to live holy lives before God based on what God requires.
Thangsan Hisfootstep
He is not but, for sure, he knows Timothy’s health problem better than us. You don’t always need medical doctors for medication sometimes. Even experienced patients can give us direction on some medication.
Robert Erwine
coors isn’t beer folks
John-Mark Neal Hales
There are far more verses against wealth than against alcohol… yet I only hear people preaching against alcohol
Varnel Watson
People who love wine care to read only some
Varnel Watson
SERIOUS BIBLE QUESTION Alan Smith
WHEN Paul told the Ephesians not to be drunk with wine, but to be filled with the Spirit.
did he mean it equally?
dont be full with much wine but be much full with the Spirit
OR
you can be full with little wine just like you can be full with little of the Spirit
#JustWondering of what Paul meant due to Link Hudson pointing the verse out of context and without understanding of the Biblical language
Link Hudson
I donot see how you have a Free or interpretation issue. Being much full of wine is forbidden. Being much full of the Holy Ghost is. The verse does not comment on having a little wine but it does not forbid it. Bu saying we are to be much full if the Spirit implies little full is not allowed. The use of ‘not’ makes the phrases not parallel.
My bad sophistry (BS) detector is going off with your trying to use this as an appeal to expert authority. That is something that bothers me about some of your posts. It seems like you want to take a dig at others to show off your knowledge. Is it motivated by ego? Why not use knowledge of Greek to educate those kf us who could learn from it instead of using it as a basis for jabs at others–especially when knowledge of Greek does not proce your point?
This issue seems to be a matter of logic rather than Greek expertise, but if you can explain otherwise go ahead.
On a related topic is ‘much full’ idiomatic for drunkenness in some contexts or do you disagree with many teams of Greek scholars who transfer the text?
Varnel Watson
Being much full of wine is forbidden is NOT what the text says If you look into the grammatical comparison Paul uses the uses it as an analogy between both
meaning
if Paul was saying little wine is good he would mean little Spirit is good – note the similarity of wording as well (spirit vs Spirit)
Paul means
no wine – more Spirit
from where I can freely and safely conclude that the BIBLE says if one gives to little wine he/she gives to little of the Spirit too – not all the way {if you know what I mean}