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Do BRITISH Assemblies of God still hold premillennial eschatology?
Varnel Watson
After conversation with Angel Ruiz about the NAR influence there short answer is YES – Most UK / Ireland AG ministers still hold to pre-mil though there was some debates about 1999-2003 to accommodate the post-mil Elim into the General Conference
Terry Wiles
sp “intentionality”? The ones I know hold to the imminent return. However it seems there is some challenge in some circles.
Varnel Watson
CORRECTION on ELIM
every Elim minister must adhere to the tenet: “We believe
in the personal and pre-millennial return of our Lord Jesus Christ
to receive unto Himself the Church
Pentecostal groups
in this country which developed in the earlier part of this century,
the major ones being the Apostolic Church, the Assemblies of God
and the Elim Pentecostal Church. Since the 1960s many people
within the main denominations, including the Roman Catholic
Church, have entered into a new experience of the reality of the Holy
Spirit. Sometimes these people are called Neo-Pentecostals or members
of the “Charismatic Movement”. They owe much to the earlier
Pentecostals although there are certain differences. However, within
the limitations of this article we will not be able to discuss this later
development in detail.
It is important to realise that the Pentecostal believes he can align
himself with the traditions of the main body of the Church. A
publication written on behalf of the British Pentecostal Fellowship
states: “Indeed, it could be safely affirmed that the Pentecostal
Movement as a whole could heartily subscribe to the Apostles’
Creed.” 1 It is an unashamedly fundamentalist movement, taking a
literal interpretation of scripture. Biblical criticism is rejected, often
as satanic. This attack was particularly vicious in the embryonic
stages of the movement. The theory of evolution is frequently criticised.
There is a great stress on a particular view of eschatology. For
instance, every Elim minister must adhere to the tenet: “We believe
in the personal and pre-millennial return of our Lord Jesus Christ
to receive unto Himself the Church, and afterwards to set up His
throne as King”.2 Pentecostal hymns look forward with joyful anticipation
to the imminent Second Coming of Christ. Of course, this
particular interpretation of Christian faith is by no means the
exclusive preserve of Pentecostals.
Pentecostal Theology – Biblical Studies.org.uk
https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/bq/27-7_282.pdf
instance, every Elim minister must adhere to the tenet: “We believe in the personal and pre-millennial return of our Lord Jesus Christ to receive unto Himself the Church, and afterwards to set up His throne as King”.
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/pentecostal-theology-in-21/
Angel Ruiz
Troy Day just to be clear on Elim… What group do u speak of when u say Elim?
I asked cuz in the hispanic World Elim originated in Gutemala and they are on the border of Neo Pentecostalism… I have found some ministers in Elim Guatemala that ignore there own internal theology and embrace assemblies of God views
David Rollings
The Elim Pentecostal Church in the UK is one of the oldest Pentecostal groups in this country.
Angel Ruiz
David Rollings can u give me more info because like I said I know of an Elim denomination but they are from Guatemala
David Rollings
Angel Ruiz Elim UK started in 1915 here is a link to their website https://www.elim.org.uk/
Angel Ruiz
David Rollings thanks
Varnel Watson
David Rollings as I was sure Elim is post-mil I just encountered several sources that say their ministers hold to pre-mil So which one is it – do you know?
Also, what church are you from – I had you as part of our AG but then was reading most of your knowledge about AG is from the internet. I hope I am wrong on this one though š
David Rollings
Troy Day I am a Charismatic Baptist but I have worked closely with Elim Pastors in the past.The Elim Statement of beliefs does not take a postion on the millenium all it says is ” The Coming King
We believe in the personal, physical and visible return of the Lord Jesus Christ to reign in power and glory.” I really don’t know what the majority would hold to but I suspect many would hold the historical premill position
Varnel Watson
personal, physical and visible return means pre-mil bro David post-mil believe you dont need personal, physical and visible return of Jesus to have the Millenium Many NAR believe we live in the Millenium right now
Specifically in the case of AG/UK seems like there is NO direct statement made but things are talked around in order to keep them in our General Conference They do have position papers however that state
every Elim minister must adhere to the tenet: “We believe
in the personal and pre-millennial return of our Lord Jesus Christ
to receive unto Himself the Church
https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/bq/27-7_282.pdf
I found several more directed to AG in UK stating the same. After speaking with some bretheren ministering there AND reaching to their Donald Gee research center this seems to be the conclusion
David Rollings
I don’t think any British person would read the statement of belief to mean pre-mil, ypu ca’t impose an American meaning on a British statement of faith. as to the article you refer to it seems that Elim may have revised its position all I am going by is there current website. The NAR is not an issue over here so need to discuss it in a British context.
Varnel Watson
it wasnt intend to be read as pre-mil David Rollings And the meaning is not American but Biblica. It was modified on purpose to allow post-mil into our General Conference. The Actual AG statement of faith still remains pre-mil though Terry Wiles may correct me if needed Maybe political move
David Rollings
Troy Day But Elim are not part of the AOG they are a seperate denomination.
Varnel Watson
hence my correction above if you read it
Varnel Watson
David Rollings was Rees Howells: Intercessor Elim or something else?
David Rollings
As far as I can tell Rees Howell did not belong to any particular Pentecostal group, he may not of even considered himself a Pentecostal his main influence was the Welsh Revivalof 1904-1906
Varnel Watson
After a long period of closure his College has now been purchased, refurbished and reopened by Cornerstone church based in Singapore.
Varnel Watson
David Rollings Daniel J Hesse Angel Ruiz While we mourn the loss of eschatology clarity we do need to stick to the facts on this one
We;ve received information from the Hyde vs Garrard debate Hyde was younger, pleasant, clearer in speech and argument, seemed more reasonable and contemporary, known personally to some people. He was also English and in active ministry, rather than from the perceived āivory towerā of the Bible College like Garrard. His argument was about what was fundamental and essential – what you would give your life for, etc. – rather than what was believed to be true
The actual studies are still a subject of being processed but the conclusion IMO is pretty clear
Troy Day David Rollings Terry Wiles The Assemblies of God in Great Britain & Ireland Statement of Fundamental Truths
WE BELIEVE in the Virgin Birth, Sinless Life, Miraculous Ministry,
Substitutionary Atoning Death, Bodily Resurrection, Triumphant
Ascension and Abiding Intercession of the Lord Jesus Christ
and in His Premillennial Second Advent
as the blessed hope set before all believers. Isa. 7: 14; Matt. 1: 23; Heb. 7: 26; 1 Peter 2: 22; Acts 2: 22; 10: 38; 2 Cor.5: 21; Heb. 9: 12; Luke 24: 39; 1 Cor. 15: 4; Acts 1: 9; Eph. 4: 8-10; Rom.8: 34; Heb. 7: 25; 1 Cor. 15: 22-24,51-57; 1 Thess. 4: 13-18; Rev. 20: 1-6.
p 184 in
Proselytism, Retention and Re-affiliation: ‘
The Hybridisation of an Assembly of God Church
by
Malcolm Gold
PhD dissertation University of Warwick, Department of Sociology
November 2000
http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/55811/1/WRAP_thesis_Gold_2000.pdf
For the historical use of AoG truths in the UK see
Kay, William K. (1989) A history of British Assemblies of
God. PhD thesis, University of Nottingham, p330
Garrard, David J. (2003), ‘The Importance of Keeping Premillennial Rider in any Statement of Faith regarding the Second Corning of Christ’, A Discussion Paper sub to the General Council of the Assemblies of God, 1 Donald Gee Centre, Mattersey Hall, nr. Doncaster. United Kingdom
Hyde, Bob (2002), ‘Do Pentecostals Need to Be Premillennial?’ A Discussion Paper submitted to tb General Council of the Assemblies of God, The Do Gee Centre, Mattersey Hall, nr. Doncaster. United Kingdom
Pelts, David (2001), Letter to the Executive Council of Assemblies of God, concerning a proposal to revise 10, The Donald Gee Centre, Mattersey Hall, nr. Doncaster. United Kingdom
Although the early Pentecostals were not trained in sociology, they seemed to have a
natural instinct for the importance of separation from the larger world if their distinct worldview
were to be retained. As Blumhofer (1993:142) noted, ā. . .early Assemblies of God members
professed little interest in contemporary society; they had either not yet glimpsed a broader
social world or had consciously turned from it.ā They began their sojourn as pilgrims, but
slowly and steadily moved toward becoming citizens. Nowhere is this better illustrated than in
the move from an apolitical (once pacifist) stance with a strong sense of Spirit-led destiny to
embracing the political agenda of Fundamentalism/Evangelicalism. An eschatology proclaiming
a soon-coming end-times, the immanent rapture of the church, and premillenialism that once
kept Pentecostals at bay from politics, now seems to undergird a staunchly conservative political
agenda (Guth, Green, Smidt, Kellstedt, and Poloma 1997). Spiritual power (empowerment) has,
at least for some, reverted into political power.
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse Angel Ruiz Terry Wiles before publishing my findings and some NEW AG stats I have just gotten I would like to quote here Dr. William K Kay who wrote the Ph.D dissertation and recently wrote
“The word āpremillennialā was certainly retained until 1995. British AoG went through major constitutional changes 2004-7 and it is possible doctrinal changes were included with the other changes intended to strengthen the position of the General Superintendent.”
After reading the actual 2003 debate it is my understanding that the changes were done to accommodate the new post-mil churches that were taken in However, for the most UK / IRA AG ministers are still pre-mil
For the historical use of AoG truths in the UK see
Kay, William K. (1989) A history of British Assemblies of
God. PhD thesis, University of Nottingham, p330
Garrard, David J. (2003), ‘The Importance of Keeping Premillennial Rider in any Statement of Faith regarding the Second Corning of Christ’, A Discussion Paper sub to the General Council of the Assemblies of God, 1 Donald Gee Centre, Mattersey Hall, nr. Doncaster. United Kingdom
Hyde, Bob (2002), ‘Do Pentecostals Need to Be Premillennial?’ A Discussion Paper submitted to tb General Council of the Assemblies of God, The Do Gee Centre, Mattersey Hall, nr. Doncaster. United Kingdom
Pelts, David (2001), Letter to the Executive Council of Assemblies of God, concerning a proposal to revise 10, The Donald Gee Centre, Mattersey Hall, nr. Doncaster. United Kingdom
Daniel J Hesse
Our forefathers never expected to see 2000. Much of the 90’s push was a way to usher us into premillenial return of our Lord. The theme of the mid 70’s …this Gospel shall be preached to the ends of the earth and the end shall come resonated in the hearts of many including this servant. We were doing only what we knew at the time. Please forgive me.
Varnel Watson
Thanks for picking it up a bit Daniel J Hesse As I already posted to Terry Wiles and Angel Ruiz This should be sufficient to clear the rumors in the OP and move to previous question http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/50eskato.png
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles Angel Ruiz did yall review the highlighted stuff?
Daniel J Hesse
Troy Day yes, I wholeheartedly embrace doctrines. Yet like each of us, i am always ready with a listening ear. I wonder Troy how many of our <40 leaders share these views? For many years, I signed the dotted line to commit and preach and teach these "infallible" distinctives. I'd like to hear from resident sage Terry Wiles
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15227243.why-christianity-is-in-crisis-in-scotland/
Daniel J Hesse
Troy Day curious about the Pentecostal church and its effect? I did not see it mentioned. God forbid, they are on the decline.
Daniel J Hesse
Troy Day wonder how this data is gathered and the accuracy across the board? I wonder if these are really the clearest pictures?
Varnel Watson
Tom Torbeyns David Rollings is the Elim church in UK even Pentecostal ?
David Rollings
Yes they certainly are, they are one of the original Pentecostal groups in this country and they still hold to the doctrine of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the use of spiritual gifts in the church. Eschatology is not an important issue in most evangelical and Pentecostal circles in the UK
Tom Torbeyns
They also don’t hold that tongues are the only initial physical evidence
David Rollings
Tom Torbeyns That is true but that has been the distinction between them and the AOG since the early days of the Pentecostal movement in the UK
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Elim retained the restoration hope? How so if hey dropped pre-mil? Are you talking about Elim in the UK?
Philip Williams
Troy Day I see that i am referring to Elim Bible Institute in America founded by Ivan Q Spencer. The relation with the British Elim Movement, I donāt know. Perhaps someone else does.
Philip Williams
Troy Day Elim in America were closely associated with the Latter Rain movement but not so much with the New Order which they predate.
Varnel Watson
yes in the US not so much in the UK
Philip Williams
Troy Day but the common roots is the rejection of Dispensational premillennialism? Retention of Old Fashion postmillenial revivslism that birthed Pentecostalism with the expectation of a Latter Rain of the Church?
Tom Torbeyns
I am talking of Elim UK. I don’t know the American variant.
Philip Williams
Tom Torbeyns there must have been some connections. Did you know that Charles Parham held British Israel beliefs?
Tom Torbeyns
yes
Philip Williams
Tom Torbeyns remarkable
Tom Torbeyns
I have at least some brain cells š
Philip Williams
Tom Torbeyns I know Parhamās only surviving granddaughter. Interestingly, she is highly respected in Israel and among certain scholars there and at Cambridge. Perhaps due to her patronage.
Tom Torbeyns
Oh, maybe she is a Christian Zionist servant… I disagree with Parham in this regard…
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams is she on FB – anyway you can bring her in the group so we can talk to her?
Philip Williams
Troy Day she is elderly and not in good health.
Philip Williams
Tom Torbeyns Iām really not sure, especially in the sense of the Dispensationalists. Some Zionists see the land as the future home of the Lost Tribes.
Varnel Watson
Yes Tom Torbeyns Elim NY is very Pentecostal Elim UK not so much However, seems like because of Elim UK our AG in UK may drop the premil statement as David Rollings tried to point out IYP do you thing premil is being discarded across EU churches?
David Rollings
Pre-mil never has been a big issue over here unlike in America.
Varnel Watson
you mean like Darby and the rapture revelation in Port Glasgow, Scotland š
David Rollings
Troy Day not just that but I would include that but most British churches have not given a prominent position to any eschatology . The only thing that is deemed essential is that Jesus will come again.
Varnel Watson
not sure how you can say that when the official Anglican church has had a very prominent position in any eschatology BUT YES I Do hear from other UK ministers that the gay issues are taking over the Protestant churches and they dont talk that much about the end time debates any more
David Rollings
Troy Day The Anglican Church has not had a position on eschataology that binds everyone to a pre-mil posoition The 39 articles of the Church of England does not teach this.. Gay issues are not overtaking most churches overhere we just have a different approach to eschatology. I am finding this discussion a bit of a waste of time because you seem to want to fit everything into an American theological mould which just does not apply to the UK
Daniel J Hesse
David Rollings David I am curious about the lasting effects of Keswick or Deeper Life teachings and their present role in the churches? Can these be revived? Also, how do leaders address the declines in many churches of the motherland?
David Rollings
Daniel J Hesse I am not sure about the lasting effects of Keswick, although the Keswick convention still happens. As for the growth seen in some churches in the UK a lot of that can be attributed to the Alpha course. Many Church groups are growing but are not included in the statistics because they are neweer Charismatic groups. We have a long way to go but various organ isation including the Evangelical Alliance arre trying to motivate the church to work together for the spread of the gospel.
Tom Torbeyns
As David Rollings has pointed out, we are not Americans. We, European Pentecostals, don’t need the American excesses. Lots of stuff that comes from America is very detrimental.
Daniel J Hesse
Tom Torbeyns please share your perspective on excesses…
Daniel J Hesse
Tom Torbeyns would you graciously compare and contrast from your viewpoint?
Varnel Watson
Tom Torbeyns David Rollings from EU we have the excess of Ulf shooting demons in the sky with machine guns, dropping Bibles over people and then going Catholic all the way
we have german bishopry supporting Hitler
Roman empire establishing kingdom on earth
charismatic Anglican, Scottish churches ordaining homosexuals
higher criticism bringing the most liberal theology of all times in the whole Christian era
witch hunts
calvins geneva persecutions of other Christians
the forcing of Pilgrims out of EU
current migrant crises the church cannot contain
a Pope who kisses with Islamic persecutor of churches
also prophetically 10 EU kingdoms = 10 horns
and finally we have french fries that are actually Belgian – We have ALL learned from EU excess SO a few charismatics prophecies in America + ol Benny Hinn are hardly an equal comparison to EU excess š
David Rollings
Well I really am almost speechless at your gross distortion of history. Which Pilgrims are you referring to be be forced out of the EU. 10 Euroean Kingdoms=the EU , this is rubbish because the EU consissts of 28 nations, it is this sort of scripture twisting that puts us off prophetic speculation over here. So many of the assertions you make are distortions or just plain wromg. I really can’t be bothered on wasting my time on replying to them all.
Varnel Watson
are you seriously asking Which Pilgrims am I referring to?
David Rollings
Troy Day Yes, becaus if you are speaking of the Pilgrim Fathers that happened 300 years before the EU existed. Many of your illustrations show a lack of historical perspective
Varnel Watson
you dont think EU is the revised Roman Empire?
David Rollings
Troy Day No, that does not make any sense to me.
Varnel Watson
you must not be Pentecostal at all then
David Rollings
Troy Day that is a very judgemental statement, which I quite frankly don’t understand. How can being a Pentecostal rely on affirming that the EU is a part of a revised Roman Empire?
Varnel Watson
are you familiar with any Pentecotal eschatological charts that were popular in Pentecostalism between 1910-1970?
David Rollings
Troy Day No
Varnel Watson
well…
David Rollings
Troy Day I became a Christian in 1969 but did not become open to the gifts and baptism of the Spirit until 1980
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse Terry Wiles Angel Ruiz If the goal is to depart from pre-mil into post-mil, the only option is to get into dominionism which is a bad bad thing for Pentecostals becoming part of the nominal church
we have seen this overwhelmingly in this country since 2015 and many many pentecostals are jumping on this sorry band wagon
I have long argued with Link Hudson Gary Micheal Epping and others that pos-TRib is the first innocent step toward post-mil which always leads to nominal church political and legal dominionism even world domination http://libertymagazine.org/article/the-rise-of-dominionism-and-the-christian-right
Daniel J Hesse
Troy Day is the word-Totalitarianism? I am concerned when I disagree and fail to show grace and humility in respect to a differing viewpoint. Our European brethren may have a strong point concerning some of the very interesting presuppositions and biases we in the American church carry. Troy, let’s create a bridge of understanding and mutual regard and respect. I know you are smart enough to do this good work.
Varnel Watson
Totalitarianism is more of a socialist thing – this new dominionism evolves from the Social Gospel and Liberation Theology which I;ve long argued its a socialist thing David Rollings
Daniel J Hesse
Troy Day circular reasoning?
Daniel J Hesse
Troy Day look at what you wrote.
Varnel Watson
circular reasoning is what socialism is ALL about and so is post-mil a-mil theology that backs it up
Daniel J Hesse
Troy Day you are after it this week. Have you been eating ramps again?
Varnel Watson
ahaha already registered for the RAMPfest š http://www.centreforchurchplanting.org/conference/
Varnel Watson
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/fullgospel/2017/08/10/what-is-pentecostal-theology/
Varnel Watson
https://www.challies.com/articles/test-every-doctrine-test-every-teacher/?fbclid=IwAR0f13XW2N3GuGGAOMziWMTbbJX46-4doNyqUpcfekI6FX5IUWfpZgeGcos