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Библията Тв | PentecostalTheology.com
Did JESUS taste spiritual death in HELL? Where did Jesus complete his work of redemption?
“Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, ‘I am thirsty.’ A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponde in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hysoop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, ‘It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his life.” (John 19:28-30)
The word teleo (strongs #5055) means “to finish”. It is a verb. This word with the proper tense, mood an voice added, as spelled in the Greek is *tetelestai* and it means “it is completed, finished”.
This word is in the perfect tense, indicative mood and passive voice, i.e., “has been” or “it is” finished.
The perfect tense means an action that was completed in the past but has continuing results, not exact meaning in the English but usually translated as has/have.
The indicative mood makes an insertion of fact and is the only mood when the time of the event can be established, i.e., when it was uttered is when this event was finished.
The passive voice means the subject received the action of the verb and uses a form of the verb “to be”, i.e., “it is” in this instance and it was Jesus who finished it.
It should be apparent to anyone reading this passage that Jesus completed his work on the cross because of the verse right above which says:
“After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, (#5055, i.e., *tetelestai*) that the Scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.. . .” (KJV John 19:28)
The word translated as “accomplished” in the KJV is the exact same word and spelling and tense, mood and voice as used in verse 30 (which is translated as finished in the KJV).
Ricky Grimsley [11/12/2015 10:14 AM]
I do not believe so. I believe he went to abraham’s bosom and set those captives free ” and preached to the spirits in prison” but i dont believe he experienced burning or a separation like the spirit leaving him.
Jon Sellers [11/12/2015 10:35 AM]
He said, “Father into your hands I commit my spirit.” That would indicate life not spiritual death. The word of faith movement has grossly misunderstood this and turned it into a grievous heresy. Copeland’s teaching about Jesus being tortured by Satan in hell is just absolutely ridiculous.
This kind of heresy reveals a serious misunderstanding about the nature of the Trinity and the nature of the incarnation and the eternal life giving God who is Jesus Christ.
Jon Sellers [11/12/2015 10:36 AM]
An excellent book on this is, “Forsaken” by Thomas McCall.
Timothy Carter [11/12/2015 11:09 AM]
We need to understand that Jesus fully paid the penalty for our sins through his death on the cross. When Jesus died he said, “It is finished” (John 19:31). “It,” in this case, was the work of redemption, which was fully completed by Christ’s death on the cross. He did not have to suffer in hell for eternity—or even for three days—in order to add to what he had already accomplished on the cross. The basis of his payment for our sins is found in the value of his sinless and sacrificial life. As the Lamb of God, Jesus alone is “worthy” to pay for our personal sins and for the sins of the whole world (Revelation 5:1-9, 1 John 2:1,2).
Next we need to understand that the Bible does not teach that death in hell for eternity is like a prison sentence for a crime. What could one ever do to pay for or make restitution for a sin? Further, no one will find themselves in hell for reasons they do not understand. The reason will be well known and grievous to them on the day of judgement. They will all know that they had rejected whatever light God gave in order to restore a right relationship with Him (Psalm 19:1-4; Acts 14:16,17; Acts 17:23-31; John 3:16-20). Such true guiding light comes only from “God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:3,4 NIV).
Therefore, Jesus’ payment must not be seen as equal to our own penalty, or even that of all mankind. The penalty due for our sin was not placed on a balance scale with the death of Christ on the other side. What we must realize is that the sinless life of Jesus Christ was of infinite worth, while the eternal suffering of the unbeliever is nothing but the natural consequence of refusal to receive the free gift of eternal life in Jesus Christ. In the end, only the Christian can begin to understand the value of this gift and will exclaim, “Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!” (2 Corinthians 9:15 )
Timothy Carter [11/12/2015 11:13 AM]
Brother Biblica, Just before Jesus died He said to the thief on the cross, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43 NIV). Now, the English translation of the Apostles Creed says, “he descended into hell” (2). And according to the scriptures, “he also descended to the lower, earthly regions” (Ephesians 4:9 NIV). So, where did Jesus go after His death?
Ricky Grimsley [11/12/2015 11:22 AM]
Abrahams bosom to preach to the spirits in prison. 1 Peter 3:18-20 KJVS
[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; [20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Timothy Carter [11/12/2015 1:21 PM]
Jesus suffered separation from his Father while on the cross?
No no no!!!
No one has brought up this issue yet but I want to make it perfectly clear before someone brings up this TBN LIE.
Christ and the Father have never been separated.
If this is a point of controversy then it would be an interesting post for a new discussion.
Many believe that is the symbolic meaning behind the 3-hour darkness while Jesus suffered on the cross (Mark 15:34).
Whatever meaning we may draw out of these events, Jesus did cry, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34 NIV). But once again, with Jesus’ last breath He said, “It is finished.” Jesus did not pay for our sins in Hell.
Jesus has never been to Hell.
He paid for our sins with His sinless life on the cross and therefore no other payment was required.
Jesus did not go to Hell to pay for our sins; He went to the place of the imprisoned souls “to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners” (Isaiah 61:1 NIV; see Ephesians 4:8) and make “proclamation to the spirits now in prison” (1 Peter 3:18-20 NASB). Today, believers give thanks for the wonderful truth that the death of Jesus has freed us from our bondage to sin and spiritual darkness. But Jesus also proclaimed freedom for the believers that had been protected in Abraham’s Bosom and His victory over death to the unbelievers and fallen angels that are still imprisoned in this cosmic prison. The believers He took to heaven (Ephesians 4:8)(4), the unbelievers and demons will, one day, be cast with Hades into the eternal flame called the “lake of fire” (Revelation 20:13,14). Though God has “prepared a place” in Heaven for believers (John 14:2,3), He also prepared an “eternal fire” for the Devil and his demons (Matthew 25:41), and if we refuse the gift of eternal life with God, we have chosen eternal death with Satan. This is what the Bible describes as eternal separation from the saving presence of God in Hell.
Our breath that God breathes into us lives forever. This body dies but we live forever. We must choose do we want to share our life with Satan in death or do we want to share our life with God in life.
Timothy Carter [11/12/2015 1:22 PM]
David Lewayne Porter
John Conger [11/12/2015 2:26 PM]
Actually Paul said if Christ had not risen we’d still be dead in our sins. Also I personally believe but can’t prove with scripture that he had to ascend and offer his blood in the actually holy of holies (told her not to touch him because he had not yet ascended) but laterAllowed himself to be touched. And I also reject the torutred by Satan stuff
John Conger [11/12/2015 2:34 PM]
Timothy this I believe is where i ppart with oneness. If you follow it to its logical conclusion then you have to believe Jesus and and God seperated. I recently sat down with a oneness family and they reitterated their belief that on the cross God left him. I pointed out that if that’s true then it means man was able to reconcile himself to God. (with Gods help of course) and it also means that they now worship Jesus who they believe is only a man. Big problems
David Lewayne Porter [11/12/2015 2:42 PM]
This topic has been covered in awesome fashion (but just to clear my thoughts) He did not go to hell.
He joined the Old Testament saints for 3 days in Paradise/Abraham’s bosom for the purpose (like the Emmaus road) where He Preached to them and explained the scriptures they believed to show them He was The One that they were looking for. He was basically telling them “Guys I am here, I Am The One you have been waiting for”, and here is the proof. He was not suffering, nor was he tormented, He also was not preaching Salvation to the Old Testament people that died in a wicked state. He was simply declaring who he was and what He accomplished to those that died in the faith – Hebrews 11:40 they without us could not be made perfect, and Heb 12:1 they are witnesses to cheer us on (home). Then he arose and took captivity captive. He took them to the Father with him, for we are also told that now in the New Testament for the believer to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord 2 Cor 5:8.
John Kissinger [11/12/2015 3:27 PM]
Wouldn’t spiritual death for Jesus mean death of the Spirit of God?
Ricky Grimsley [11/12/2015 3:33 PM]
I dont know that any spirit can die. Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJVS
[7] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
John Kissinger [11/12/2015 3:33 PM]
“He [Jesus] tasted spiritual death for every man. And His spirit and inner man went to hell in my place. Can’t you see that? Physical death wouldn’t remove your sins. He’s tasted death for every man. He’s talking about tasting spiritual death.” (Kenneth Hagin, “How Jesus Obtained His Name,” tape #44H01, side 1. Kenneth Hagin Ministries).
John Conger [11/12/2015 4:23 PM]
Why wouldn’t physical death be enough? Isn’t the shedding of blood what was needed?
John Kissinger [11/12/2015 4:52 PM]
“When Jesus cried, ‘it is finished’ He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne. . . . Jesus’ death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption.” (Kenneth Copeland, “Jesus–Our Lord of Glory,” Believer’s Voice of Victory 10, 4 (April 1982).
Ricky Grimsley [11/12/2015 5:07 PM]
Just because kenneth copeland says it doesnt make it so. He also says the pope is my leader and we should all submit to his leadership but then again thats what you would expect from someone trying to form a one world religion.
John Conger [11/12/2015 5:33 PM]
If Jesus had to pay every aspect of what we would pay wouldn’t that mean he would stay in hell and then the lake of fire for eternity? That is of course of the suffering of the dammed is eternal and not just the end of existence ?
John Kissinger [11/12/2015 5:50 PM]
Jan Crouch, wife of TBN’s Paul Crouch, approvingly recited the following from Paul Billheimer’s book, “Destined for the Throne,”:
“Because he was ‘made sin, impregnated with sin, and became the very essence of sin, on the cross He was banished brom God’s presence as a loathsome thing. He and sin were made synonymous. . . .[I]t was not sufficient for Christ to offer up only His physical life on the cross. His pure human spirit had to ‘decend’ into hell. . . . His spirit must not only descent into hell, but into the lowest hell. . . .The Father turned Him over, not only to the agony and death of Calvary, but to the satanic torturers of His pure spirit as part of the just dessert of the sin of all the race. As long as Christ was ‘the essence of sin’ he was at Satan’s mercy in that place of torment. . . . While Christ identified with sin, Satan and the hosts of hell ruled over Him as over any lost sinner. During that seemingly endless age in the nether abyss of death, Satan did with Him as he would, and all hell was ‘in carnival.’ ”
(Paul E. Billheimer, “Destined for the Throne”, pub. 1988, pg 83-84, program aired 20 August 1987)
David Lewayne Porter [11/12/2015 7:20 PM]
Take their materials and see if they can reference scriptures. They are making statements that ca n’t be supported with Bible. His “torture and being turned over” was the surging post where most people died, and the cross that drove the majority of the rest insane because it was designed for an excruciating death. Add the fact that He was tempted in the wilderness (Matt and Luke ch 4), and the prayer time on the garden when He sweated as great drops of blood. Not to mention the rest of His life and His personal trials. As far as His Spirit, we are told that He was in all points tempted and YET WITHOUT SIN. He had no personal need for cleansing. Look at what He told John at his Baptism (Matt and John 3) suffer it to be so so that they might fulfill all righteousness, not become righteous but fulfill all righteousness.
Jesus was the Son of Man – His flesh and humanity, and the Son of God His Spirit. Notice His Spirit was the Spirit of God – remember how often the religious leaders wanted Him dead because He “made Himself equal with God”. Did God ever get tortured in hell?
We are told He humbled Himself, took on the FORM of a Servant, as was obedient even up to and including the death of the Cross, (His obedience was to go to and finish laying His life down on the cross – not death any other way – which is why they could not kill Him early).
Jesus talked about the things He had to suffer According To The Scriptures as He talked with His followers. That included 3 days in the heart of the earth as the sign of Jonah.
I do not see one scripture that says Jesus, The Christ, the Messiah had to go to hell and be tortured – tormented – (as implied) cleansed and purified?
If that was the case the veil would not have rent in two the moment Christ finished His duty upon the Cross at the end if the shedding of His blood as He (with a loud cry) released His Spirit Heaven – ward back to the Father (His Spirit was in Heaven with God the Father. His Body was in the Grave, His Soul was in Paradise / Abraham’s bosom with the righteous dead saints, and the thief from the cross (Remember Lazarus and the rich man – Lazarus was in comfort Luke 16 (righteous dead) the rich man was in torments and flames (dead sinners/wicked).
I could go on but I will stop.
Pastor
David Lewayne Porter
Dunn NC
John Kissinger [11/12/2015 7:40 PM]
Great discussion. #oneness peeps are looking for a cover 🙂
Charles Page [11/12/2015 7:48 PM]
Jesus ‘experienced’ spiritual death on the cross he descended to hell to visit the perished spirits of the elect children of God that drown in the flood.
Charles Page [11/12/2015 7:48 PM]
he announced the good news of his atonement.
Timothy Carter [11/12/2015 9:00 PM]
The elect are those who have repented not those who are predestined. The predestined is the plan of salvation. Those people before the flood we’re not predestined to drown. God did not desire for those people to drown God is not evil. It was the plan of God for everyone to get on bored with Noah.
Russell A. Morris [11/12/2015 10:07 PM]
The JDS position is theologically inadequate, setting forth a view of redemption that has no support in the text of scripture. This Word of Faith teaching purports that on the cross Jesus became a sinner, went to hell, was buffeted by Satan/demons, and as a sinner had to be “born again.” In so doing redemption for humankind was completed. Scripture, however, emphatically and in numerous places, states that redemption occurred “at the cross.” Jesus bore the sin of humankind, he did not become a sinner and need to be “born again.” The JDS position is a distorted and faulty view of redemption.
Louise Cummings
The Bible says nothing about Jesus burning in hell for our sins. When you go to hell for sins you don’t get out. He wasn’t a sinner. The Bible said He never sinned neither was guild found in his mouth. He did take the keys to death , hell and the grave from Satan. And set captives free but our Redemption was finished on the Cross. Because He cried loud and said it is finished. Father into or unto You I commend My Spirit.
Varnel Watson
Ricky Grimsley The word teleo (strongs #5055) means “to finish”. It is a verb. This word with the proper tense, mood an voice added, as spelled in the Greek is *tetelestai* and it means “it is completed, finished”.
This word is in the perfect tense, indicative mood and passive voice, i.e., “has been” or “it is” finished.
The perfect tense means an action that was completed in the past but has continuing results, not exact meaning in the English but usually translated as has/have.
The indicative mood makes an insertion of fact and is the only mood when the time of the event can be established, i.e., when it was uttered is when this event was finished.
The passive voice means the subject received the action of the verb and uses a form of the verb “to be”, i.e., “it is” in this instance and it was Jesus who finished it.
Terry Wiles
This is ceasing to be mature Pentecostal Theology discussion and more like first semester dorm room talk from those ungrounded in the Word.
He took captivity captive.
Howard Gardner
Jesus completed His spiritual work of redemption on the cross. He said “It is finished” – not “to be continued.” – Benny Hinn.
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles Took or led? Ephesians 4:7-10 is a “hard passage”. The main question is whether or not Christ descended into hell.
Let’s start by clearly answering at least these three questions:
(1) What is the descent that Paul is thinking about when he says, “he also first descended into the lower parts of the earth” (verse 9)?
(2) What is the captivity that Paul is thinking about when he quotes, “He led captivity captive and gave gifts to men” (verse 8)?
(3) What is the leading that Paul has in mind in that same quote, “He led captivity captive” (verse 8)?
Terry Wiles
Troy Day. The beginning ? was did Christ taste spiritual death in hell. The answer is no. He went there as victor and led captivity captive.
Cor Leonis Johnson
Jesus is God! It is heresy to teach that Jesus is not God, and it is heresy to teach that Jesus could die and temporarily cease to be God.
Larry Koester
On the vmcross when tbe father ababdoned him. His death finished it. The provression.in hell a deccaration of victory. Bis rwsurrction the the price of sin was paid in full.
Nikki Sheppick
Herein are two scriptures that speak as if He did: Ephesians 4:9 “Now that He …. ascended, what is it, but because …. He also descended first …. into the lower parts …. of the earth?”
Acts 2:24 that “God hath raised up Christ, having loosed …. the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible …. that He should be holden …. by it.” BUT, either way, God knows, and it is God’s will that we know this Holy Truth …. Jesus PAID the Price FOR us, in our place, being the Holy Lamb of God, pure and worthy unto God, as God required …. so that He could make His Narrow Way of Salvation open to all …. whosoever …. will come unto Him. 1 Corinthians 6:20 –
“For ye are bought …. with a price: therefore …. glorify God …. in your body, and …. in your spirit, …. which are God’s.” Amen and Amen – https://www.biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-20.htm
Jo Kothenbeutel
You forgot 1
Nikki Sheppick
Share?
Keith A. Smith
He tasted that before He even left the cross: “Why have You forsaken me?”
Varnel Watson
deep theology here folks Neil Steven Lawrence
Neil Steven Lawrence
No. If Jesus still needed to go to hell to redeem people, then the entire victory was NOT won on the cross!
Deborah Bray
No, the Spirit of Christ did not “die,” nor was it required. Jesus tasted physical death, the only “death” required to remit sin: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.” Leviticus 17:11
Jon Sellers
Jesus did not die spiritually. At the cross he committed his spirit into the hands of the Father. His physical body died and was buried. But his spirit is united to the eternal Son of God, who is God in the flesh and God cannot die. Jesus is eternal life, he cannot die. Jesus has the power to raise up himself from the grave. The Father raised him up from the grave. Jesus and the Father are one.
Tim Spangler
“Hands across the water…hands across the sky” (Paul McCartney’s “Uncle Albert, Admiral Halsey”
Aaron Paul Carruth
Luke 23
39One of the criminals who hung there heaped abuse on Him. “Are You not the Christ?” he said. “Save Yourself and us!”
40But the other one rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same judgment? 41We are punished justly, for we are receiving what our actions deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” 42Then he said, “Jesus, remember mej when You come into Your kingdom!”
43And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
—
46Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, “Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.”m And when He had said this, He breathed His last.
Arthur Adam Haglund
NO!
The Second death is the lake of fire, created for the Fallen Angels and fallen unsaved men shall go there, as well.
Neos Mike
Agreed
The lake of fire is eternal for the eternal punishment of Satan and other fallen angels, while sinners will be destroyed because their spirit couldnt take the burning
Neil Steven Lawrence
Neos Mike that is pure nonsense!
Arthur Adam Haglund
Neos Mike
“while sinners will be destroyed because their spirit couldnt take the burning”
The Revelation states that the smoke of their torment rises before God’s throne eternally. Guess you missed that part.
Neos Mike
How did Jesus Christ take the punishment of our sins?
By dying on the cross, not burning in hell
Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin is death, but gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord”
Malachi 4:1,3 and Isaiah 47:14 both states that sinners will soon become as stubble and ashes.
Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.
In the greek manuscripts, forever is translated from the greek word αἰῶνας while ever is αἰώνων, which both means an age or a period of time.
Same for Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
Forever is translated from the Greek word αἰῶνας while the ever is translated from αἰώνων, and the meaning of both is ages.
Tell me, how can God be just if He punishes sinners who only sinned for a lifetime?
Aaron B Lister
No, because “spiritual death” is not the requirement of sin. A very real –physical death– is the requirement for sin, and that is exactly what he suffered.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Aaron B Lister Pure nonsense. The Lake of Fire will include fallen angels as well as fallen men. Both will be in their eternal state. Angels as spirits and men as spirit soul and body. The experience is defined by the image – a lake of fire. Don’t try to sugarcoat what the scripture plainly described.
Aaron B Lister
Neil Steven Lawrence what is the Lake of Fire?
Aaron B Lister
Neil Steven Lawrence for the sake of the reader I’ll answer. First The Lake of Fire imagery is interpreted twice as being “the second death.” See Rev 20:14 and 21:8.
Second, This imagery signifies the end/destruction/death of all things contrary to God.
See Rev 21:4 and Rev 22:3
In addition to the visions clear interpretation and it’s accomplishment that is taught in the immediate context one must consider what the rest of the Bible says on the matter.
1 Cor 15:26-28 “The Last enemy to be destroyed is death … that God may be all in all.”
Notice “Death” was one of the things thrown into the Lake.
I do not sugar coat what the Bible teaches, rather I strive to teach what it teaches.
“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Rom 6:23(ESV)
Neil Steven Lawrence
Aaron B Lister People knowing their purpose and their desire to be with the Lord but not being able to fulfill their purpose or be with the Lord. Realizing it is forever. That will set them on fire.
CS Lewis said, “Hell’s doors are locked from the inside.“
Neil Steven Lawrence
Aaron B Lister you are teaching annihilation, that is a heresy. The Bible never speaks about the eternal damnation of men or fallen angels in terms of – “ceasing to exist“ but instead, “eternal destruction”.
Buddhism teaches annihilation but not the Bible!
Aaron B Lister
Neil Steven Lawrence and Islam teaches eternal torment. ?
Yes I know what CS Lewis taught on Hell, but do the scriptures ever say “the gates of Hell are locked from the inside”? ?
Alas you misrepresent my position…I do not believe the wages of sin is annialation I believe the wages of sin is death/destruction/to perish etc etc…
Jesus suffered and died in our place on the cross… He was the clearest example of the wages of sin…. Did he cease to exist? No…. He died!
Did he suffer eternal torment…. Nope! He died!!!
So even Jesus’ atoning work compliments what the scriptures teach.
The wages of sin is death my friend… Not eternal torment.
Call what the scriptures teach heresy all you want, but it won’t earn you any favors on that day.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Aaron B Lister Perhaps we are talking past each other… So I want to make sure that I understand you. Are you saying that people and fallen angels who have rebelled against God will not remain eternally in the lake of fire?
Aaron B Lister
Neil Steven Lawrence I believe that the imagery of the LOF depicts all that is contrary to God will someday come to an end.
The rebellious angels and men will suffer death in Hell, and they will remain dead for eternity.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Aaron B Lister
When someone dies they do not cease to exist. The first death is a separation of the body from the immaterial nature which goes to hell.
Hell is a waiting place for the immaterial nature of the sinner.
The second death will happen only after the second resurrection; at which time the bodies of all the history of mankind sinners will be joined back to their immaterial nature and stand before the great white throne judgment.
Then their spirit/soul/body will be cast into the lake of fire where they will be forever and ever. They will receive eternal punishment.
This punishment does not come from God (so to speak) but from themselves. Over and over they said they did not need God, they did not want God, they told God to leave them alone. So God will give them what they wanted, separation from him.
The eternal reality of the separation is what will cause them to catch fire. The scripture is very clear.
To say they die and equate that with ceasing to exist in their tormented state only leaves one option – annihilation. And annihilation is not a biblical doctrine.
Aaron B Lister
Neil Steven Lawrence Our anthropology is different. However I certainly wouldn’t argue that when someone dies they cease to exist, I would instead argue that they cease to live.
Hell(the final judgement of God against the wicked) is a future place where the Body and Soul of a person are destroyed just as Jesus warned…”do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matt 10:28 ESV.
Ken Matey
Neil, the scripture is clear that it’s the eternal separation which causes them to catch fire? I’ve never heard that…what passage did you read that? Thanks
Aaron B Lister
Ken Matey indeed the eternal torment position is rank with pressupositions.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Ken Matey “weeping and gnashing of teeth.“
Have you ever seen somebody so upset that they literally Gnash their teeth, in this life?… It’s not a pretty picture.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Aaron B Lister
Revelation 20:10 “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
After the devil was in the bottomless pit for 1000 years now he is thrown into the lake of fire forever and ever. That is the definition of eternity in many places in Scripture. The lake of fire is eternal for both demons and unrepentant sinners.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Ken Matey The worst punishment is being separated from everyone, seeing no one ever. But worse than this is seeing the great glory of God, desiring to be with him more than anything, and then being separated from him forever. The fire people experience as Jesus describes it in many places, is complete agony: spiritual, mental, emotional, physical.
Since we are not primarily physical beings but primarily spiritual beings, the agony comes from our spiritual nature first. That is why I believe the scripture clearly shows sinners will set themselves on fire! They can see no one they can interact with no one, therefore it is their own selfish agony that causes the burning.
Got it?
Ken Matey
Neil, there’s quite a difference from being upset and catching on fire.
Ken Matey
Neil, no, I don’t have it. You used no scripture at all. I asked where you thought the scripture clearly teach thats it’s because of eternal separation that the ungodly catch fire. If you had to pick the clearest passage, which would you point me to?
Varnel Watson
Jon Sellers how do we then say the old man dies in baptism? Which old man since all of us lived to tell the story after water baptism? Neil Steven Lawrence he did not go to hell to redeem He descended to hell to deliver 🙂
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day no second chances for any generation. “It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment.“
Varnel Watson
Jesus has the power to raise up himself from the grave. The Father raised him up from the grave. Jesus and the Father are one. Jon Sellers dont forget the HOLY GHOST too