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| Rebecca L Ringler |
Jesus willingly have up his life for us. |
| Joe Absher |
John 12:24 KJV — Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.Jesus Christ willingly gave himself for our sin. A sacrifice. A ransom for all. He is the seed of the woman. The light of the world. The bread of heaven broken for you and me. And he is faithful, having been temped, yet without sin, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Emmanuel, God with us. Jesus life and death proves God’s love and care and willingness to redeem the worst of us and expose the rest of us. God is love. He that loveth not knoweth not God. That will mean sacrifice, faith, obedience, forgiveness and joy even when you’re climbing your last hill and taking your last breath. |
| Terry Wiles |
Hebrew Bible does not say Thou shalt not “killâ€. It uses the word for “murderâ€. Murder is intentional and wrong. The Old Testament refers to those types of sin as “sins of the high hand.â€There was no salvation for such sins. Peter uses this phrase in his sermon. The Jews who were listening knew they were guilty of such for which. there was no sacrifice. There question was, what shall we do? Peter responded and the rest is history. But don’t take my word for it. Look it up. |
| Troy Day |
You are most probably thinking KJV The hebrew language does not make difference Its all the same |
| Terry Wiles |
Not according to Jewish scholars |
| Troy Day |
Which Jewish scholars would that be ??? 🙂 Peter Fiske or Tom Steele ???Let us listen for one’s to the ACTUAL Torah scholars: At least two options present themselves for explaining the unexpected use of the verb רצח in Massei to refer to killing rather than homicide. Perhaps the root is used inconsistently in the Bible, and for some reason, in a small number of cases, it need not refer to murder; for a variety of reasons, languages contain such inconsistencies. Alternatively, we could say with Blidstein, that the lack of clarity of the root רצח is meant to teach us to abhor all killing of human beings.https://thetorah.com/does-the-torah-differentiate…/ |
| Terry Wiles |
Check the translations of the majority of English translations which translate it though shalt not murder. When you read the complete article there is a defining difference between the concept of murder and the concept of killing. |
| Terry Wiles |
Here is another Jewish authority.https://torah.org/learning/halacha-overview-chapter68/ |
| Troy Day |
Yes Terry the major English translations are wrong as all follow the so called LATIN Heresy after Jerome’s Bible. The Rabbi in the article I posed explains it all very nicely for you Your article doesnt even touch on the issue #noughsaid |
| Peter Fiske |
Terry Wiles, you’re actually correct, there is a different Hebrew word that describes murder, as in you shall not commit murder in Exodus 20, as opposed to executing or killing, not related to murder, as can be found in Exodus 19. |
| Troy Day |
Peter Fiske Read the actual hewbrew words before you say any more nonsense https://thetorah.com/does-the-torah-differentiate…/ |
| Terry Wiles |
Direct from Israel. #5 You shall not murderhttps://www.haaretz.com/…/the-ten-commandments-1.5416257 |
| Peter Fiske |
Troy Day, the Latin Vulgate, which was translated by Jerome from the Greek Septuagint is the basis for the Catholic Bible, as well as for the King James Bible. Dake used the King James Bible, which means Dake is using by your own definition, a flawed text based on a flawed manuscript. |
| Troy Day |
King James was translated from Textus Receptus – read the KJV very very long intro that explains it for you Terry again your link uses the words but does not prove your point Haaretz is a news paper not a scholarly resource 🙂 |
| Terry Wiles |
Troy Day Here is anotherhttp://www.aish.com/jw/s/The-10-Commandments-Today.html |
| Terry Wiles |
Troy Day Another with murderhttps://en.vikidia.org/wiki/Judaism |
| Troy Day |
vikidia – seriously? I can edit that same article tonight to say exactly the opposite. Read the article I posted. The Rabbi explains it very very simply |
| Terry Wiles |
Troy DAY… One more”×œ× ×ª×¨×¦×—”“You shall not murder.†(20:13)QUESTION: Why is it that, when reading the Aseret Hadibrot in private, “lo tirtzach†is read with a patach, and when it is read in public — in shul — it is pronounced with a kamatz (“lo tirtzawch†in the Ashkenazi pronunciation)?ANSWER: The act of murder can be performed in two ways:1) Actual murder by shedding of blood.2) Shaming a person in public. This is considered as murdering him because the person’s blood drains from his face, leaving him pale as a corpse (Bava Metzia 58b).The two pronunciations of “lo tirtzach†allude to these two forms of murder. The patach, (literally “openâ€) which is pronounced with an open mouth, represents the type of murder in which a wound is opened in the victim and blood is shed. This is forbidden even in private.The kamatz (literally “closeâ€) is pronounced (in the Ashkenazi pronunciation) with the mouth somewhat closed, and it alludes to the form of murder that is committed by embarassing a person. Although the person is “closed up†— there are no open wounds and blood is not gushing out —he is nevertheless like a dead man. Such an act of murder takes place only in public.(שי ×œ×—×’×™× ×•×ž×•×¢×“×™× ×‘×©× ×”×¨×‘ ×™. צירלס×ן ×–”ל ×ž×§×¢×©×™× ×•×‘)https://www.chabad.org/…/jewish/Ten-Commandments.htm |
| Troy Day |
Again nothing to do with what we are talking about here |
| Terry Wiles |
Troy Troy Day Only in reference to kill or murder. but never what you want to talk about… 🙂 |
| Troy Day |
Just cite Strongs and I will give up with no fight |
| Terry Wiles |
lol |
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| Troy Day |
I know our AG taught you how to do a proper exegesis at one point of time right? |
| Terry Wiles |
rotflol |
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| Troy Day |
Call tomorrow morning and ask for your money back 🙂 |
| Terry Wiles |
https://www.chabad.org/…/aid/2957422/jewish/The-Manual.htm |
| Troy Day |
Did JESUS stop being GOD at the cross? |
| Isara Mo |
Marvelous question |
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| Troy Day |
Many still marvel upon it 🙂 |
| Troy Day |
Peter Fiske In his commentary on the Decalogue in Exodus 20:13, Rashbam (R. Samuel ben Meir, c. 1085-c. 1158) argues that רצח must mean “murder†and only murder:You shall not murder – The verb ר-צ-×— always – wherever it appears – refers to unjustified homicide. For example (Num. 35:16—I will deal with this passage below), “the murderer (הרוצח) must be put to death,†or (1Kings 21:19, of King Ahab, who killed the innocent Naboth), “Would you murder (הרצחת) and also take possession,†or (Isa. 1:21), “Where righteousness dwelt – but now murderers (מרצחי×).â€But the verbs ×”-ר-×’ and מ-ו-ת sometimes refer to unjustified homicide (i.e., murder) – e.g. (Gen. 4:8) “and he,†Cain, “killed him (ויהרגהו)†– and sometimes to justifiable homicide (i.e., execution) – e.g. (Lev. 20:16) “you shall kill (והרגת) the woman.â€Rashbam thus suggests that ×”-ר-×’ and מ-ו-ת are general terms, which may refer to homicide of any type, the equivalent of English “kill,†while ר-צ-×— is a narrower term, referring to unjustified killing, “murder.†|
| Troy Day |
Peter Fiske Terry Wiles Where did you earn your MDiv in Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic? What topic was the Biblical Hebrew thesis you defended on? – exactly. Yall are following western KJV tradition not Hebrew. KJV followed Jerome who of course was defending Roman law with his translation that makes specific distinction between killing and murder to justify wars and execution within roman democracy. Not so in Hebrew…So let’s turn to the actual Hebrew Rabbinic scholars who explain it for the ones who dont even know Hebrew reads from right to left and uses no vowels: As he does occasionally, Rashbam relates that he discussed this verse with Christians.[1] He told them that the decision of Jerome (347-420), the author of the Vulgate, the authoritative Latin Bible translation of Western Christianity, to use the same verb to translate רצח and הרג was mistaken.[2] The major purpose of Rashbam’s polemical point was probably to prove that Jews use reliable texts of the Bible while Christians, who read the Bible in inaccurate translations, do not.[3] Despite Rashbam’s polemic, it is uncertain whether a simple way of distinguishing between murder and killing existed in classical Latin.[4] https://thetorah.com/does-the-torah-differentiate…/ |
| Peter Fiske |
Troy Day, what makes the 1st and 2nd Century AD rabbinical commentaries more accurate than early Christian commentaries? The rabbis rejected the Messiah, their concept of a messiah was of a warrior king that would rid them of the Romans. It wasn’t the concept of Messiah as we Christians understand who Jesus actually was. I’d be careful as to which sources of information you cite from. |
| Troy Day |
Fiske the article explains – read it |
| Peter Fiske |
Troy Day, there is a difference between murder and to kill (execute for a capital crime) in Hebrew. To kill/ execute is “muwth” (Strong’s H4191) https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm…The Hebrew word for “murder” is “ratsach” (Strong’s H7523)https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm… |
| Troy Day |
Strong? Really? That’s your level of he-brew 🙂 Forget it |
| Peter Fiske |
Hebrew words in Strong’s aren’t inaccurate, if they were then the entirety of Evangelical hermeneutics would literally fall apart.”Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Biblehas been the standard Bible concordance for pastors, scholars, and laypersons for over a century.”https://www.thomasnelson.com/new-strong-s-exhautive…Apparently Strong’s exhaustive Concordance of Hebrew and Greek is good enough for most seminaries in the Evangelical world. So you’re saying that your source, whatever that is, is so *superior* to Strong’s Concordance that it makes it look ‘Mickey Mouse?’Finis Dake didn’t even have a doctorate in anything! Yet his commentaries are gospel for many theologically unsophisticated Pentecostal and charismatic clergy. At least Dr. Strong had a bona fide theological degree from an accredited Methodist Seminary.”In 1856 Wesleyan University granted him the degree of Doctor of Divinity (D.D.).” [Reverend steve williams. “Biography In Brief”. Bioinbrief.com. Retrieved October 7,2013.] |
| Troy Day |
hey Peter Fiske back to OP that Isara Mo asked:Did God kill Jesus? |
| Peter Fiske |
God became a man and died on a Roman cross 2,000 years ago for our sins. And what do you mean by *kill*, do you mean murder or execute? As I’ve shown, there is a difference in the Hebrew! |
| Troy Day |
You will need to ask Isara Mo what he meant by kill And NO you have not shown there is a difference in Heb Peter Fiske You have attempted to show but was not able to prove any of what you were saying. Even with this example according to your theory Jesus would have been a justified kill according to the law Acts 5:30 proposes a great problem to your false theory Acts 5:30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead–whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.Now how can Israel kill Jesus who is GOD? |
| Link Hudson |
God cannot murder. |
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| Troy Day |
Link Hudson Can GOD die? |
Philip Williams
“this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.””
Acts 2:23, 36, 40
Louise Cummings
No way.
Louise Cummings
The Bible says No man take His life. But I lay it down of myself. Of course His Father is a person. Not fleshly like us. But He didn’t send His Son to Kill Him. But to lay down His Life Of Himself. Willingly.
Varnel Watson
its quite peculiar to note Philip Williams
Gary Micheal Epping
The Jews killed Jesus. John 11: 49-52 said, ‘ Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53 So from that day on they plotted to take his life.’
Varnel Watson
Robert Franzen your take on this one pls The Cross has to involve a Trinity Right? Jevan Little