Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com…

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Matthew 4:24 ,http://probible.net/matthew-424/, , [] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Thu Sep 4 19:19:28 EDT 2008

[] Mk 8:12 EI DOQHSETAI THi GENEAi TAUTHi SHMEION [] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt I am looking at Mt 4:24. The following is the way I see in a poor man’sdiagramming.Mt 4:24(A) KAI *APHLQEN *H AKOH AUTOU…, http://probible.net/matthew-424/

[] Mk 8:12 EI DOQHSETAI THi GENEAi TAUTHi SHMEION [] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt I am looking at Mt 4:24. The following is the way I see in a poor man’sdiagramming.Mt 4:24(A) KAI *APHLQEN *H AKOH AUTOU EIS OLHN THN SURIAN(B) KAI *PROSHNEGKAN *AUTW PANTAS TOUS KAKWS ECONTAS(B1) POIKILAIS NOSOIS KAI BASANOIS SUNECOMENOUS(B2) [KAI] DAIMONIZOMENOUS(B3) KAI SELHNIAZOMENOUS(B4) KAI PARALUTIKOUS(C) KAI *EQERAPEUSEN *AUTOUS.The verse consists of three clauses (A) (B) and (C) with verbs APHLQEN,PROSHNEGKAN, EQERAPEUSEN.The problem I had is with (B). I like to take B1, B2, B3 and B4 withaccusative participles SUNECOMENOUS, DAIMONIZOMENOUS, SELHNIAZOMENOU, andaccusative adjective PARALUTIKOUS as ‘objects’ of the verb ECW (> ECONTAS).I wish B4 had a participle, but I can take as in a sense of participle inEnglish (‘being paralytic).Then, KAKWS ECW takes all the forms of people’s trouble to be brought toHim. From reading English translations, it is not clear and precise. Theyseem to give me a picture of their taking B2-B4 as the objects of verb BPROSHNEGKAN.I would appreciate your comments so that I make sure I am on the righttrack.Oun Kwon.

[] Mk 8:12 EI DOQHSETAI THi GENEAi TAUTHi SHMEION[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt

[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Thu Sep 4 19:35:37 EDT 2008

[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt [] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt On Sep 4, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Oun Kwon wrote:> I am looking at Mt 4:24. The following is the way I see in a poor > man’s> diagramming.> > Mt 4:24> (A) KAI *APHLQEN *H AKOH AUTOU EIS OLHN THN SURIAN> (B) KAI *PROSHNEGKAN *AUTW PANTAS TOUS KAKWS ECONTAS> (B1) POIKILAIS NOSOIS KAI BASANOIS SUNECOMENOUS> (B2) [KAI] DAIMONIZOMENOUS> (B3) KAI SELHNIAZOMENOUS> (B4) KAI PARALUTIKOUS> (C) KAI *EQERAPEUSEN *AUTOUS.> > The verse consists of three clauses (A) (B) and (C) with verbs > APHLQEN,> PROSHNEGKAN, EQERAPEUSEN.> > The problem I had is with (B). I like to take B1, B2, B3 and B4 with> accusative participles SUNECOMENOUS, DAIMONIZOMENOUS, > SELHNIAZOMENOU, and> accusative adjective PARALUTIKOUS as ‘objects’ of the verb ECW (> > ECONTAS).> > I wish B4 had a participle, but I can take as in a sense of > participle in> English (‘being paralytic).> > Then, KAKWS ECW takes all the forms of people’s trouble to be > brought to> Him. From reading English translations, it is not clear and precise. > They> seem to give me a picture of their taking B2-B4 as the objects of > verb B> PROSHNEGKAN.> > I would appreciate your comments so that I make sure I am on the right> track.I think it would be better to understand PANTAS TOUS with (a) KAKWS ECONTAS POIKILAIS NOSOIS, (b) BASANOIS SUNECOMENOUS, (c) DAIMONIZOMENOUS, (d) SELHNIAZOMENOUS,and (e) PARALUTIKOUS. That is to say, KAKWS ECONTAS POIKILAIS NOSOIS is one of 5 (five) groups all contained within the article TOUS and the inclusive quantitative adjective PANTAS. KAKWS ECEIN is a distinct idiom in itself for “be ill” — a colloquial equivalent of NOSEIN. The other four categories are parallel to those suffering illnesses, not subcategories.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt

[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Fri Sep 5 01:17:08 EDT 2008

[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt [] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt —– Original Message —– From: “Oun Kwon” <kwonbbl at gmail.com>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: 5. september 2008 02:19Subject: [] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt>I am looking at Mt 4:24. The following is the way I see in a poor man’s> diagramming.> > Mt 4:24> (A) KAI *APHLQEN *H AKOH AUTOU EIS OLHN THN SURIAN> (B) KAI *PROSHNEGKAN *AUTW PANTAS TOUS KAKWS ECONTAS> (B1) POIKILAIS NOSOIS KAI BASANOIS SUNECOMENOUS> (B2) [KAI] DAIMONIZOMENOUS> (B3) KAI SELHNIAZOMENOUS> (B4) KAI PARALUTIKOUS> (C) KAI *EQERAPEUSEN *AUTOUS.> > The verse consists of three clauses (A) (B) and (C) with verbs APHLQEN,> PROSHNEGKAN, EQERAPEUSEN.> > The problem I had is with (B). I like to take B1, B2, B3 and B4 with> accusative participles SUNECOMENOUS, DAIMONIZOMENOUS, SELHNIAZOMENOU, and> accusative adjective PARALUTIKOUS as ‘objects’ of the verb ECW (> ECONTAS).> > I wish B4 had a participle, but I can take as in a sense of participle in> English (‘being paralytic).> > Then, KAKWS ECW takes all the forms of people’s trouble to be brought to> Him. From reading English translations, it is not clear and precise. They> seem to give me a picture of their taking B2-B4 as the objects of verb B> PROSHNEGKAN.> > I would appreciate your comments so that I make sure I am on the right> track.> > Oun Kwon.I would say that you are on the right track, except to take the participles as “objects” of ECW. The passage has three coordinated main clauses and 5 subordinated clauses.As Carl has mentioned ECEIN KAKWS is a Greek idiom “to have it in a bad way” for being ill or having troubles. Other related languages may have a similar idiom. When people in English say “How are you?” we say in Danish “How do you have it?” Others may say “How do you feel?”I would therefore consider PANTAS TOUS KAKWS ECONTAS as a complete noun phrase with an embedded clause.A participial “phrase” in Greek is often nowadays called a participial clause by linguists because it contains a verb and it often corresponds to a rank-shifted relative clause in English. They brought to him “all”. How are these “all” further described? First by “who had it in a bad way” (or “those having it in a bad way”, if you want to use a participle in English.)I agree that this a general statement which is further clarified and described by the following 4 subordinated clauses. This is typical of the Hebrew thought pattern behind the Greek text of Matthew . A general statement comes first, followed by clarifying details.Your B1 is a participial clause which modifies and further describes PANTAS (TOUS KAKWS ECONTAS) and is therefore in the accusative. The SUN prefix is the reason why the “objects” (POIKILAIS NOSOIS KAI BASANOIS) of the participial verb are in the dative.B2, B3 and B4 are three more participial clauses parallel to B1. For B4 we need to supply the participle ONTAS, but it is common in Greek to have an underlying form of EIMI not expressed in the surface structure.Iver Larsen

[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt

[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Fri Sep 5 22:02:43 EDT 2008

[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt [] Revelation 14:4–PARQENOI GAR EISIN On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 1:17 AM, Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org> wrote:> —– Original Message —– From: “Oun Kwon” <kwonbbl at gmail.com>> To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>> Sent: 5. september 2008 02:19> Subject: [] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt> > > > I would say that you are on the right track, except to take the participles> as “objects” of ECW. The passage has three coordinated main clauses and 5> subordinated clauses.> As Carl has mentioned ECEIN KAKWS is a Greek idiom “to have it in a bad way”> for being ill or having troubles. Other related languages may have a similar> idiom. When people in English say “How are you?” we say in Danish “How do> you have it?” Others may say “How do you feel?”> I would therefore consider PANTAS TOUS KAKWS ECONTAS as a complete noun> phrase with an embedded clause.<clipped>> IverThanks Iver and Carl.I agree with Iver to take PANTAS TOUS KAKWS ECONTAS as a complete nounphrase. Perhaps, that’s why I put a quotation mark on ‘objects’.If I put it in diagrams again, this seems how Carl saw it:(B) KAI PROSHNEGKAN AUTW PANTAS TOUS(B0) KAKWS ECONTAS POIKILAIS NOSOIS(B1) KAI BASANOIS SUNECOMENOUS(B2) [KAI] DAIMONIZOMENOUS(B3) KAI SELHNIAZOMENOUS(B4) KAI PARALUTIKOUSCompared how I see: I believe that’s how Iver saw it too.(B) KAI PROSHNEGKAN AUTW PANTAS TOUS KAKWS ECONTAS(B1) POIKILAIS NOSOIS KAI BASANOIS SUNECOMENOUS(B2) [KAI] DAIMONIZOMENOUS(B3) KAI SELHNIAZOMENOUS(B4) KAI PARALUTIKOUSAll these (B1) to (B4) are the examples (details) of PANTAS TOUSKAKWS ECONTAS.It seems to me the choice is to be made from the context since thegrammar and syntax do not help much here.This is what looks like in most English translations:(B) KAI PROSHNEGKAN AUTW PANTAS TOUS(B0) KAKWS ECONTAS(B1) POIKILAIS NOSOIS KAI BASANOIS SUNECOMENOUS(B2) [KAI] DAIMONIZOMENOUS(B3) KAI SELHNIAZOMENOUS(B4) KAI PARALUTIKOUSI would buy the last one the way the conventional translations see itif (B0) read ‘KAI POIKILAIS NOSOIS ….’Oun.